When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[Darksmash]

Well, you could honestly argue that it's this whole 0 restrictions thing that could grant 1A through being unrestricted and above the very framework of the hierarchy itself, but that is contradicted by what was said earlier, anyway

The "framework" of the heirarchy works on removing restrictions, and the last step just removes the last restriction. I don't see how that equates to conceptually transcending any possible addition to the heirarchy

 

[Tarang123]

The "framework" of the heirarchy works on removing restrictions, and the last step just removes the last restriction. I don't see how that equates to conceptually transcending any possible addition to the heirarchy

Oh, nvm then. Anyway, 1B/High 1B TC seems to work unless this downgrade is rejected to which the Tier 0 rating should be nuked.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

umineko got a complex verse, how will it effect the truths?
i wanna see warhammer solo umineko

 

[Ovy7]

There's no tier 0 on the wiki that has that tier from transcending an infinite High 1-A hierarchy, btw (maybe except the WoD ones, but I don't really know that verse).

 

[QuasiYuri]

Allright, I just got a bit of spare time while waiting so might as well properly answer.

In this context, it very much does, since what Lambda is saying is essentially that the Domain of the Witches encompasses anything that falls in-between the two extremes of the world while not belonging to either of them, hence her view being that beings like her are a middle ground between Mortal and Creator: They don't create fate, but they do have the ability to play around with it as they like.

She never restricted it to the Witch Domain. She clearly says that this is about all of existence.
Also beings from above the Witch Domain, such as Piece are still witches, so it still apply.

You can't just claim "she didn't mean what she said".

Although, just out of curiosity, how exactly do we treat this scan, which I often see being used to prove the different domains are separate hierarchies? I really can't be bothered to debate moonrunes, like i said above, so I'll likely give you the benefit of the doubt whatever your answer is, in any case.

Already answered by someone else above.

While, as you mentioned above, the manga and the Visual Novel are largely equally canon, they do have slightly different takes on the cosmology in regards to where Featherine resides, exactly. For instance, in the VN, her study is stated to exist on a plane above the World of Witches in Episode 6, while in the manga adaptation, that statement is omitted (As far as I am aware, anyway), and the last chapter later establishes it to be a part of the "witch side."

As said prior, the translation you use directly says it only say Meta and not Witch as a footnote.

Given that, there is ground to treat them separately on that front, and so this loops back to what Ovy brought up up there, namely the fact that the VN has Featherine being described by a third-person omniscient narrator, and not by Lambda's internal monologue. I do admit that the manga certainly favors your interpretation more, though, so I guess this is a matter of choosing between versions as well.

The VN doesnt contradict it being Lambda's thoughts tho. You can express a character's thoughts through a third person narrator.
Also given how the manga is Ryushiki07's "official answer" of Umineko, there's no reason to dismiss it over something non-contradictory.

There is, because the statement in question is referring to Beatrice, who we already know is constantly going through a process of internal evolution throughout the Sea of Fragments because of the nature of her Endless Magic, so much that Lambda compares it to someone jumping off a ladder while using a parasol to slow down the fall. Beatrice having already surpassed Witches at the core of her existence while simultaneously being a Witch also mirrors Yasu internally surpassing humanity and ascending to witchdom in spite of being physically human herself, so it's not like there is no in-verse precedent for that interpretation, either.

Except we work on facts, not interpretation.
All it says is that she started to get on Feath's level, not that there's another, new unmentionned hierarchy.

I don't see much of a need to dismiss that as flowery language. On its own, it can easily be interpreted as saying that the Kingdom of God is outside of the hierarchy entirely, and not simply a topmost part of it, which does make sense if one takes into account that Creators are described as not even having an ontological "ground" under their feet by virtue of having long detached themselves from all limitations inherent to lower worlds.

I see much of a need to take it as what it is.
Once again, we work on facts, not headcanons.
This TIPS comes way before we even get talked about Featherine's world and even your interpretation would remove the 1-A+ rating and everything scaling to it.
Also being way above something have nothing to do with not having an end.

Because yeah, a mere unrelated statement about voyagers' journey having no endpoint (which would have nothing to do with being above anything) somehow refers to this unmentionned hierarchy that only comes from "interpretation", which never got brought up when you unlock the TIPS and even prove it is infinite!

Yeah that's clearly not enough. "I have infinite power" statements would be a higher standard than accepting this kind of reaching.

That's not really the case, actually. The reasoning behind the second key of the Voyagers is rooted more in Higurashi than Umineko proper, if anything: In fact, a core theme of When They Cry as a whole is that will and determination can shape the future and change reality, to the point that this principle is described as being "the law of the world" in Matsuribayashi-hen, and Lambdadelta herself is stated to be its embodiment, hence why the law itself is the root and source of her magic (To the extent it's directly identified as being "her power" more than once), and why Takano being able to partake in it is represented as her receiving Lambdadelta's blessing.

Granted, I do agree that the profiles are a bit misleading as it stands. Lambda's case, at least, isn't exactly a "true form" so much as an universal concept that she just so happens to be the physical embodiment of. If I were to link it to anything, I'd say it's more like she is the Type 2 Abstract of that law, and not the law itself being some higher self of hers. Moreover, this opens up the question of whether this characteristic applies to Voyagers as a whole or just to Lambda in specific, as well.

It wouldn't prove that the character or law itself encompasses the entire domain about them tho.
It's rather said to be a "law of the world" to humans (supported by it always being said to be human-related) rather than to all the stuff above; when its embobidment clearly is limited.



Also that's a bit besides the point, but seeing so many people not being able to make their mind on Creators stuff is kinda saddening. Would have expected people to care more about accuracy than big ratings for once.

 

[Darksmash]

Having "no ground" is probably just a way to say that their existence isn't defined by anything else, since they have reached the top. Ryukishi says in his interview that witches can manipulate creations but are still part of someone else's creation. Meanwhile Creators aren't bounded by anyone else's creation because they have reached the top of the chain. This philosophy would hold true by reaching the top of any number of layers. I think interpreting it to mean being inaccessibly above the heirarchy is extremely reaching, especially with there being many counter arguments for that.(Such as Featherine touching the last boundary)

 

[PrinceofPein]

There's no tier 0 on the wiki that has that tier from transcending an infinite High 1-A hierarchy, btw (maybe except the WoD ones, but I don't really know that verse).

Yes they become tier 0 by becoming inaccessible to the lower hierarchy of H1A or H1A world, but this is clearly not the case in umineko, and WOG tier 0 is also by being inaccessible to a H1A world iirc

 

[Executor_N0]

As said prior, the translation you use directly says it only say Meta and not Witch as a footnote.

Just here to answer this

That isn't what the footnote says. It says: The reading of the Kanji is given as "meta"
This is a case of irregular furigana when we have the reading as being somehow vastly different from the kanji itself and is more like a multilayered use that is basically only possible in written media, known as ateji, where they say something, but the kanji and the furigana can give multiple meanings to what is said.

For example, in Digimon Xros Wars the Royal Knights according to the Furigana only say "God" while speaking. However the katakana below it says "Homeostasis". This isn't meant to exclude the information that it's Homeostasis and you should only think of God, but it's meant to use the two at the same time. They say something, but there's another meaning, an extra layer, to that information.

So in this case, the reading is "Meta", but "Witch" is still there in order to give that its multilayered structure. Isn't meant to be taken as two totally different things, but that they complement each other.

Of course there are multiple variations on how furigana is used even in ateji, the blog post I sent shows some of the uses, but it's really not just "just ignore it, the reading is just Meta and not Witch", because most of the time, it's meant to be just a multilayered word.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just here to answer this

Of course there are multiple variations on how furigana is used even in ateji, the blog post I sent shows some of the uses, but it's really not just "just ignore it, the reading is just Meta and not Witch", because most of the time, it's meant to be just a multilayered word.

My bad then. Misunderstood what the note was saying.

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[UlbertAlain]

Bump

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Disagree FRA.

 

[BLS]

Op seems to make sense

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I agree. Looks like High 1-B ~ 1-A

 

[Ultima_Reality]

She never restricted it to the Witch Domain. She clearly says that this is about all of existence.

Also beings from above the Witch Domain, such as Piece are still witches, so it still apply.

You can't just claim "she didn't mean what she said".

I think the ones placed in the middle are us, the witches. We create fate and play with it. We move around in that interstice.

Under Lambda's explanation, in the side tossed about by fate, there are only humans (And other entities who are nonetheless part of the same Fragment, if we are to account for the wider setting of WTC), and in the side that creates fate, there are only Creators, thus leaving the space in the middle to be occupied only be Witches like herself, and making it the "world of the witches." That should be straightforward enough as an explanation, I think.

The VN doesnt contradict it being Lambda's thoughts tho. You can express a character's thoughts through a third person narrator.
Also given how the manga is Ryushiki07's "official answer" of Umineko, there's no reason to dismiss it over something non-contradictory.

Not to dismiss it, per se, but moreso to acknowledge that its portrayal of the cosmology does slightly differ from the one which the VN presents, hence why I said this part of the discussion can also boil down to a matter of picking between versions. Since you seemed to have accepted the validity of the above scan after Executor's explanation, then regardless of how you cut it, the Manga and the VN do have distinct opinions on where Featherine's Study (And by extension Featherine herself) exists.

Except we work on facts, not interpretation.
All it says is that she started to get on Feath's level, not that there's another, new unmentionned hierarchy.

And yet Bernkastel very directly states that, even if Beatrice hasn't quite reached Featherine's own level, she is still internally on a level of her own that lies above that of the Witches, and is continuously evolving even still. Unless the wording of the Japanese version suggests another meaning to that phrase (And I can think of a few, admitedly), it seems clear enough to me, particularly when we take into account how Beatrice's process of ascension works in the first place.

your interpretation would remove the 1-A+ rating and everything scaling to it.

How, exactly, though? I probably already know the reasoning behind that (If I'm not projecting too much, that is), but I'd like to confirm it with you, first.

It wouldn't prove that the character or law itself encompasses the entire domain about them tho.
It's rather said to be a "law of the world" to humans (supported by it always being said to be human-related) rather than to all the stuff above; when its embobidment clearly is limited.

Not necessarily to humans alone, considering it still applied to Battler's witch self, and Takano's actions while backed by it authored a narrative that was so tightly-spun that not even Hanyuu (Rika, in the manga, since she's the one operating on the higher world in there) could pick it apart for a long time.

 

[Darksmash]

Why do we even assume Voyagers' law influence goes throughout the ladder in the first place? They surely know about their own powers as they don't miss a single chance to brag about it, yet Lambda very clearly says she is still climbing the ladder

 

[Antvasima]

@Ovy7 @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0

So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think the ones placed in the middle are us, the witches. We create fate and play with it. We move around in that interstice.

Under Lambda's explanation, in the side tossed about by fate, there are only humans (And other entities who are nonetheless part of the same Fragment, if we are to account for the wider setting of WTC), and in the side that creates fate, there are only Creators, thus leaving the space in the middle to be occupied only be Witches like herself, and making it the "world of the witches." That should be straightforward enough as an explanation, I think.

Except the "Third Domain" inhabitants, which are in-between, are only witches too (Piece and Self Insert Feath) Therefore it makes sense that it includes both.

Not to dismiss it, per se, but moreso to acknowledge that its portrayal of the cosmology does slightly differ from the one which the VN presents, hence why I said this part of the discussion can also boil down to a matter of picking between versions. Since you seemed to have accepted the validity of the above scan after Executor's explanation, then regardless of how you cut it, the Manga and the VN do have distinct opinions on where Featherine's Study (And by extension Featherine herself) exists.

It wouldn't really change Lambdadelta knowing about Feath whole thing though.
I do agree manga and VN have their differences however.

And yet Bernkastel very directly states that, even if Beatrice hasn't quite reached Featherine's own level, she is still internally on a level of her own that lies above that of the Witches, and is continuously evolving even still. Unless the wording of the Japanese version suggests another meaning to that phrase (And I can think of a few, admitedly), it seems clear enough to me, particularly when we take into account how Beatrice's process of ascension works in the first place.

Well, as shown before, the kanji used is more of a "stepping in" like you would use it in real life.
With the "she'll becomes like you" thing, it is more like how you would say in real life that someone started to look as fit as this other guy.
God I suck at explaining correct meaning

How, exactly, though? I probably already know the reasoning behind that (If I'm not projecting too much, that is), but I'd like to confirm it with you, first.

Because the current interpretation, which is what gives everything beyond 1-A, is different.

It considers that "no endpoint" means there's litteraly no end and that's it refers to the "Third Domain"... somehow (despite the realm not being a thing at that point in the story), meaning it has infinite steps you can never reach to the end after the witch domain.

And the very fact that Featherine exists obviously makes this interpretation impossible. In addition to the TIPS clearly referring to Voyagers like Lambda and Bern.

And it is the only thing everything past 1-A's based on.

Not necessarily to humans alone, considering it still applied to Battler's witch self, and Takano's actions while backed by it authored a narrative that was so tightly-spun that not even Hanyuu (Rika, in the manga, since she's the one operating on the higher world in there) could pick it apart for a long time.

Can't say for Higurashi, but Battler scan is a good proof yeah.

Although the thing would be that while the concept is in the witch Domain (since lambda & coe are in it); it doesnt make sense for it to be above all of it when the true form of the witches are far from the end.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Still agree against it

 

[Tarang123]

Still agree against it

Instead of saying that, why don't you just say that you disagree with the downgrade lol?

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Instead of saying that, why don't you just say that you disagree with the downgrade lol?

Disagree with the Downgrade (Better)

 

[QuasiYuri]

What's the point of repeating the same "disagree FRA" tho.

Anyway, the part against the downgrade cruelly lack evidences to support their claim regarding the ladder, a possibly second infinite hierarchy or witches concept encompassing their entire domain so far.

"Voyagers' journey having no endpoint" was explained already: context has nothing to do with "Third Domain" which wasn't a thing at that point + it's obviously not a case of anything being unreachable, as proved by Featherine + it's clearly a metaphor for Voyagers wanting to constantly flee from boredom and not reach Creatorhood.

Given how it was the only evidence used to get anything beyond 1-A; therefore there's no feat at all putting them higher.

After all you can't just decide to give whatever tier based on interpretations of statements weaker than a "I have infinite power".

So yeah, it's cool to disagree, but it's better to have good feats when doing so.

 

[Darksmash]

Anyway, the part against the downgrade cruelly lack evidences to support their claim regarding the ladder, a possibly second infinite hierarchy or witches concept encompassing their entire domain so far.

Pretty much this

I feel like I haven't seen any strong counter arguments against the heirarchy stuff. People can FRA all they want but some strong arguments need to be present. Most of the counter arguments have only addressed the other parts of OP while ignoring the only part that majorly impacts the tier

 

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with Yuri and Darksmash so far

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Except the "Third Domain" inhabitants, which are in-between, are only witches too (Piece and Self Insert Feath) Therefore it makes sense that it includes both.

Featherine isn't exactly a good example to use, since she is narratively treated as an entity of abnormal standing and described as above Witches in general in spite of technically being considered a Witch herself, which, going by the stated nature of her Study, applies to her avatar form too. So she'd be above the "middle" that Lambdadelta describes nonetheless.

Piece directly serves under her much like Ange and Bernkastel did (Both obviously being far from surpassing the World of Witches), so she'd just be an entity of the same vein as them: Someone from a lower realm who is allowed to exist within a higher one by the grace of an entity presiding over the latter. (Been a while since I've read Last Note of the Golden Witch, though, so you can correct me on that one if necessary)

It wouldn't really change Lambdadelta knowing about Feath whole thing though.

It would, since there isn't really much to suggest those are Lambdadelta's thoughts in the Visual Novel. The novel itself has a character's inner monologue hijacking the narration in multiple instances, so if that description was intended to be her exact thoughts, it'd just be explicitly written in the first person and from her viewpoint.

The manga changed that a bit mostly because of the absence of a third-person omniscient narrator, and in that continuity, there is not only no mention of Featherine's Avatar being in a realm higher than the world of the witches, but also direct statements establishing her to live within it. So, yeah, while the manga does favor your interpretation, as I said, it's pretty clear that the differences between it and the VN can't really be reconciled in that regard, so mixing up the two doesn't work as an argument.

Well, as shown before, the kanji used is more of a "stepping in" like you would use it in real life.
With the "she'll becomes like you" thing, it is more like how you would say in real life that someone started to look as fit as this other guy.
God I suck at explaining correct meaning

I don't exactly see a difference, though. Bernkastel still says that Beatrice already surpassed Witches as a whole and is continuing to evolve towards Featherine's level. That part is what's relevant here. Unless the "She's already beyond Witches" statement is absent from the original, my pont still stands.

It considers that "no endpoint" means there's litteraly no end and that's it refers to the "Third Domain"... somehow (despite the realm not being a thing at that point in the story), meaning it has infinite steps you can never reach to the end after the witch domain.

And the very fact that Featherine exists obviously makes this interpretation impossible. In addition to the TIPS clearly referring to Voyagers like Lambda and Bern.

You consider Featherine to have once been a Voyager yourself, though, based on a few of your comments in the posts above, and also still consider the stairway leading to the Creator to be one of infinitely-many steps (Thus making a realm beyond it unreachable by a gradual ascent anyway), so your proposals don't really fix those so-called issues. Granted, I think I've seen another translation of that description of the Voyagers' journey using the term "destination" instead of "endpoint," so, might as well get the Japanese version of that scan, no? It might clear up some doubts.

Anyway, my thoughts on a possible counter-argument that could still be made even under my view were more-or-less this: Given that the journey of the Voyagers as a whole is what is stated to have no endpoint, it's possible to argue that Lambda was just mistaken about the world of witches actually being an infinite ladder, thus meaning the only hierarchy that's actually infinite is the third one. I think Darksmash proposed something similar up there, even? (Basically just skimmed through the relevant responses after reading through the OP, so, sorry if I missed anything)

Although the thing would be that while the concept is in the witch Domain (since lambda & coe are in it); it doesnt make sense for it to be above all of it when the true form of the witches are far from the end

Being far from surpassing the ladder only applies to the personification of the concept, and not to the concept itself. Given that the latter can still exist just fine without the former (Seeing as Battler was still affected by it even after Featherine killed Lambda), arguing that the law of certainty just expands alongside her (Or something similar) seems a little far-fetched. Lambdadelta herself is very clearly secondary to its existence, and the fact she's, well, just an embodiment should make that obvious.

 

[Tarang123]

What's the point of repeating the same "disagree FRA" tho.

Anyway, the part against the downgrade cruelly lack evidences to support their claim regarding the ladder, a possibly second infinite hierarchy or witches concept encompassing their entire domain so far.

"Voyagers' journey having no endpoint" was explained already: context has nothing to do with "Third Domain" which wasn't a thing at that point + it's obviously not a case of anything being unreachable, as proved by Featherine + it's clearly a metaphor for Voyagers wanting to constantly flee from boredom and not reach Creatorhood.

Given how it was the only evidence used to get anything beyond 1-A; therefore there's no feat at all putting them higher.

After all you can't just decide to give whatever tier based on interpretations of statements weaker than a "I have infinite power".

So yeah, it's cool to disagree, but it's better to have good feats when doing so.

I agree with this, if no scans or even more evidence is offered, then the amount of disagrees is honestly not very relevant.

 

[Tarang123]

Also, I'm not sure if I can, but I'm bumping the shit out of this thread.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Pretty sure bumpos are only required after a full day of no attention.

 

[Darksmash]

I think people are focusing on the word "witch" a bit too much. I don't consider the term a reliable way to accurately gauge the Cosmology.

As Yuri already pointed out, Featherine is considered a witch. She is abnormal, yes. But it's made clear that the reason she is abnormal is because she reached the highest heights a witch could reach. The exact same scan says she is above the world of the witches while also calling her a witch.

She definitely won't be above the "middle" in Lambda's monologue considering said middle was clearly defined to exist between humans and the creator.

. I think Darksmash proposed something similar up there, even?

What I meant to say is whether you consider there to be some arbitrary division in the heirarchy seperating "witches" with something else or not isn't really that relevant for tiering, considering in Lambda's monologue the middle(portion below the creator) is said to be where witches reside, and it's the one that's called infinitely layered. So even if you consider there to be 2 domains to exist between the human domain and the creator domain they would only be infinitely layered when taken together.

Granted, I think I've seen another translation of that description of the Voyagers' journey using the term "destination" instead of "endpoint," so, might as well get the Japanese version of that scan, no? It might clear up some doubts.

Here is the japanese version of that tip:
異なる運命や境遇の世界をカケラと呼び、無限のカケラの海を自由に渡り歩
くことの出来る魔女を航海者と呼ぶ。
高位魔女の別称でもあり、その魔力は、領地を出られない魔女のそれとは比べ
物にならない。

ただ、特定の領地を持たないためか、価値観が安定せず、魂が希薄になりや
すい。
その結果、カケラの海の藻屑となり消えてしまう航海者も少なくない。

彼女らの航海に終点はなく、むしろ終点から逃れるための旅だとすら言い切
れるかもしれない。

航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる。


It does seem to translate to "endpoint", but I would say it is definitely no proof of infinite heirarchy. The conclusion that the heirarchy is infinitely layered from "having no endpoint" internally assumes their journey involves continuous ascend to deeper parts of the ladder, which isn't true as Lambda directly says she is a coward who may never reach the deeper parts, seemingly due to her fear of the creator.

Lambdadelta herself is very clearly secondary to its existence, and the fact she's, well, just an embodiment should make that obvious.

In that case, it appears that Lambda just feeds from the concept of certainty or only has control over the portion that is available to her. I sure as hell don't see the point of giving a concept a tier, so I think that key should be removed

 

[Tarang123]

Pretty sure bumpos are only required after a full day of no attention.

This thread's an exception...

 

[Everything12]

This thread's an exception...

It isn't.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It isn't.

It is.

 

[Tarang123]

It isn't.

I was joking...

 

[Darksmash]

This thread is too dead for a Umineko downgrade

 

[Tarang123]

This thread is too dead for a Umineko downgrade

True...I was expecting a bit more...fire?

 

[Delta333]

It will not be dead if Umineko got downgraded to below 1-A

 

[Tarang123]

It will not be dead if Umineko got downgraded to below 1-A

Still confused why it wasn't downgraded to 11A already...the Umineko wank is literal cancer

 

[Darksmash]

It will not be dead if Umineko got downgraded to below 1-A

Well that's what the thread is doing, except the very god tiers(who imo shouldn't be 1-A either) everyone will be below 1-A

 

[Tarang123]

Well that's what the thread is doing, except the very god tiers(who imo shouldn't be 1-A either) everyone will be below 1-A

Again, the fact that they're not already 11A - 10B is a bit disappointing already

 

[Delta333]

who imo shouldn't be 1-A either

Downgrade them I'm sure thread will not be dead