• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Darkmash already gave most of what I would have said (although I'll still answer Ultima comment), but I just wanna say that it's better if the thread is cool and yknow, not a hellhole.

No need to bump 908098 times or anything. I'm pretty sure most of us prefer to do whatever they do in their day and just discuss this for a moment, instead of going full day into debatting about stronk waifus.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Featherine isn't exactly a good example to use, since she is narratively treated as an entity of abnormal standing and described as above Witches in general in spite of technically being considered a Witch herself, which, going by the stated nature of her Study, applies to her avatar form too. So she'd be above the "middle" that Lambdadelta describes nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Anything above the middle is the Creator realm, per Lambda's explanation. Her self-insert (or true self, for Ovy7) isn't in said realm.

Sure Feath's super strong for a witch, but she is still one. Lambda knows about Featherine and didn't made any differences.
Ultima_Reality said:
Piece directly serves under her much like Ange and Bernkastel did (Both obviously being far from surpassing the World of Witches), so she'd just be an entity of the same vein as them: Someone from a lower realm who is allowed to exist within a higher one by the grace of an entity presiding over the latter. (Been a while since I've read Last Note of the Golden Witch, though, so you can correct me on that one if necessary)
Click to expand...
Eeeh, I misremembered Last Note on this one. My bad.
Ultima_Reality said:
It would, since there isn't really much to suggest those are Lambdadelta's thoughts in the Visual Novel. The novel itself has a character's inner monologue hijacking the narration in multiple instances, so if that description was intended to be her exact thoughts, it'd just be explicitly written in the first person and from her viewpoint.
Click to expand...
It really doesn't have to be. Umineko's really isn't that fond of Third Person Objective POV (for obvious reason) and you can portray characters thoughts without having them talking to themselves.

Besides, unless the two scenes contradicts themselves (which they don't, narration even emphasis the fact that Lambda knows all that stuff which is why she's stressed, can't choose to win nor lose, knows about Featherine's weakness and even the past incident with it) there's no reason to reject additional infos from two perfectly equal canons.

So Lambdadelta perfectly knows all the stuff about Featherine so far.
Ultima_Reality said:
The manga changed that a bit mostly because of the absence of a third-person omniscient narrator, and in that continuity, there is not only no mention of Featherine's Avatar being in a realm higher than the world of the witches, but also direct statements establishing her to live within it. So, yeah, while the manga does favor your interpretation, as I said, it's pretty clear that the differences between it and the VN can't really be reconciled in that regard, so mixing up the two doesn't work as an argument.
Click to expand...
Just explained above how it didn't contradict there, and that saying Lambda doesn't know that just makes no sense in both VN and manga.

Besides it is pretty much trying to make one medium take precedence over the other, which we aren't doing since we mix manga and VN all the time.
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't exactly see a difference, though. Bernkastel still says that Beatrice already surpassed Witches as a whole and is continuing to evolve towards Featherine's level. That part is what's relevant here. Unless the "She's already beyond Witches" statement is absent from the original, my pont still stands.
Click to expand...
Which doesn't apply new hierarchies or anything, just that they are much higher.
Ultima_Reality said:
You consider Featherine to have once been a Voyager yourself, though, based on a few of your comments in the posts above, and also still consider the stairway leading to the Creator to be one of infinitely-many steps (Thus making a realm beyond it unreachable by a gradual ascent anyway), so your proposals don't really fix those so-called issues. Granted, I think I've seen another translation of that description of the Voyagers' journey using the term "destination" instead of "endpoint," so, might as well get the Japanese version of that scan, no? It might clear up some doubts.
Click to expand...
I consider that there's only one infinite ladder; not two infinite ladders that scale to each others and are the only reason for anything beyond 1-A.
How it changes stuff is pretty obvious.

It is "end point" (終点) as in destination/last stop yeah. It's how you usually talk about the terminus of a travel in a vehicle.
That's also the japanese name of SSB's Final Destination, which is a useless fact that I had to write somewhere.
Ultima_Reality said:
Anyway, my thoughts on a possible counter-argument that could still be made even under my view were more-or-less this: Given that the journey of the Voyagers as a whole is what is stated to have no endpoint, it's possible to argue that Lambda was just mistaken about the world of witches actually being an infinite ladder, thus meaning the only hierarchy that's actually infinite is the third one. I think Darksmash proposed something similar up there, even? (Basically just skimmed through the relevant responses after reading through the OP, so, sorry if I missed anything)
Click to expand...
Well, in a way it would be the same result as what's being argued, since the two combined would just be one infinite ladder.
Although my stance is more than while there's an infinite ladder for sure, it only stops at Creator realm, per Lambda's world
and even if we ignored that added a second hierarchy it wouldn't be an infinite one and would result in a single infinite ladder, hence would come back to the same thing.

(If I only wanted to get the tiering right, any of the 3 options would work. But I still prefer what's most accurate).
Ultima_Reality said:
Being far from surpassing the ladder only applies to the personification of the concept, and not to the concept itself. Given that the latter can still exist just fine without the former (Seeing as Battler was still affected by it even after Featherine killed Lambda), arguing that the law of certainty just expands alongside her (Or something similar) seems a little far-fetched. Lambdadelta herself is very clearly secondary to its existence, and the fact she's, well, just an embodiment should make that obvious.
Click to expand...
Then it would have nothing to do on any Voyagers page, and just be them being able to draw from it.

Which actually makes more sense given how both Battler and Bernkastel are Sorcerer of Miracles and are fundamentally different.

Voyagers being a secondary existence and all isn't what's currently on the profiles, which consider the concept as their true self, which is what I was arguing about.
However, if we just consider it as "flowery" talk (not every case of "embobidment" have to be litteral, after all) to say that they hold control over this kind of concept, then I'm fine with it.
 
God900 said:
I'm just expressing my opinion, in my opinon the argument from both seem to be better elaborated than the counterpart that's all. And some people where FRAing more than one time too. I only FRAed one time.
Click to expand...
I just noticed you FRAing again and just telling to others "their argument are good because they are" when it is up to them to see if the arguments given were good enough or not; making both needless. If you want to developp on your stance, just explain how your side is better.
Your vote isn't like, gonna be a better vote because you repeated it.

(Ofc others FRAing too isn't good either, just happened that you were the one who did it in this short time. Would apply to anyone else doing the same).
 
Delta333 said:
This thread should be in staff discussion to avoid FRA train
Click to expand...
I don't think it is truly needed (unless the other side think it is, in which case I don't mind). Stuff is better in staff thread when there's a risk of huge derailling (and members just don't really care about stuff being staff only anyway).

However I would like if people could try to not just say "agree/disagree FRA" and also comment if they have a good understanding of both tiering and at least some knowledge of Umineko. This kind of thread needs discussion, not big numbers.

Also the post is litteraly divided in several, unrelated parts, meaning agree/disagree FRA doesn't even explain what they agree/disagree with.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Featherine isn't exactly a good example to use, since she is narratively treated as an entity of abnormal standing and described as above Witches in general in spite of technically being considered a Witch herself, which, going by the stated nature of her Study, applies to her avatar form too. So she'd be above the "middle" that Lambdadelta describes nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Just to adress this, but Creators are indeed Witches, just of higher rank. This is repeated multiple times:
"One day you might even be a witch so great that even I cannot compare. Perhaps as you say you might even rise to the lofty height of a Creator."
"The Great Witches on a plane far above us are no different than Gods" (Note that Voyagers refer the Creators as Gods)
"Witches of a Higher-Order than Voyagers are called Creators"

Not countering anything really, but Creators are Witches, so them being referred as such at times isn't unnatural.
 
Birgi126 said:
Just to adress this, but Creators are indeed Witches, just of higher rank. This is repeated multiple times:
"One day you might even be a witch so great that even I cannot compare. Perhaps as you say you might even rise to the lofty height of a Creator."
"The Great Witches on a plane far above us are no different than Gods" (Note that Voyagers refer the Creators as Gods)
"Witches of a Higher-Order than Voyagers are called Creators"

Not countering anything really, but Creators are Witches, so them being referred as such at times isn't unnatural.
Click to expand...
This supports Quasi claim on the Creators, so I am in full agreement with his claim on the Creators stuff
 
I strongly agree with the Creators issue, even more so because I was the one who helped with the translations and providing some of the content. The translations that put the Creators as a singular entity or that take is just heavy MTL usage. And this subject is extremely important because the current justification of the profiles is that witches become one with the creator, not that witches can become a creator. This is quite wrong because it is a misinterpretation of the concept of boredom of the Creators with the addition of MTL. I wanted to make it clear that there was no retcon, regardless of this: "The highest-ranking witch, who sent Piece, she was the closest to a Creator"

I obtained the Symphony of Catbox and Dreams a few weeks ago, and the context that "creator" is a title still stands, only the lack of context is being used to say it's a retcon here. Therefore, there is no retcon, since "航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる." is still around.

nNp5CVS.png


Now using another fact from the novel to counter this, which has been stated in this thread before, is that Ikuko who is also Featherine is Ryukishi's self-insert because Featherine is nothing more than just a manifestation of herself in a meta-narrative of her writing the tales that encompass the Witch Domain, being the author of the world, and this already gets into another point that was established, which is the fact that in episode 6 it was established that her study is outside the world of witches. Regardless of this not being stated in with every word in the manga like in the novel, because it is not extremely necessary, we have in episode 8 the entire meta-world side of the story being just a script in her study, which includes Human Domain and Witch Domain.

Thus I agree 100% with Creators. Anything else is just headcanon and forced MTL.
 
Alonik said:
I strongly agree with the Creators issue, even more so because I was the one who helped with the translations and providing some of the content. The translations that put the Creators as a singular entity or that take is just heavy MTL usage. And this subject is extremely important because the current justification of the profiles is that witches become one with the creator, not that witches can become a creator. This is quite wrong because it is a misinterpretation of the concept of boredom of the Creators with the addition of MTL. I wanted to make it clear that there was no retcon, regardless of this: "The highest-ranking witch, who sent Piece, she was the closest to a Creator"

I obtained the Symphony of Catbox and Dreams a few weeks ago, and the context that "creator" is a title still stands, only the lack of context is being used to say it's a retcon here. Therefore, there is no retcon, since "航海者より高位の魔女は、造物主と呼ばれる." is still around.

nNp5CVS.png


Now using another fact from the novel to counter this, which has been stated in this thread before, is that Ikuko who is also Featherine is Ryukishi's self-insert because Featherine is nothing more than just a manifestation of herself in a meta-narrative of her writing the tales that encompass the Witch Domain, being the author of the world, and this already gets into another point that was established, which is the fact that in episode 6 it was established that her study is outside the world of witches. Regardless of this not being stated in with every word in the manga like in the novel, because it is not extremely necessary, we have in episode 8 the entire meta-world side of the story being just a script in her study, which includes Human Domain and Witch Domain.

Thus I agree 100% with Creators. Anything else is just headcanon and forced MTL.
Click to expand...
The witches becoming a creator themselves or becoming one is literally pointless, the domain of the creator existing above the witches domain (which is proved by the fact featherine is not a creator even though she exists above the domain of witches)still stands and in that way the cosmology still stands for the qualifications of boundless, furthermore I don’t get why the misconception of Featherine being a creator still exists when it was out right stated for that to not be the case in the Last Note back in 2019
 
Gwirgisdagoat said:
furthermore I don’t get why the misconception of Featherine being a creator still exists when it was out right stated for that to not be the case in the Last Note back in 2019
Click to expand...
We literally have a word of god of it being within an official media of the work itself. If your interpretation goes against Ryukishi's WoG it means it's just headcanon.
 
Gwirgisdagoat said:
The witches becoming a creator themselves or becoming one is literally pointless, the domain of the creator existing above the witches domain (which is proved by the fact featherine is not a creator even though she exists above the domain of witches)still stands and in that way the cosmology still stands for the qualifications of boundless, furthermore I don’t get why the misconception of Featherine being a creator still exists when it was out right stated for that to not be the case in the Last Note back in 2019
Click to expand...
The Creators part Alonik mentionned isn't related to the tier downgrade, so you're out of tracks there.
Creator Domain is obviously above everything else in the verse.

This "everything else" is however High 1-B/Low 1-A at best, meaning they only qualify for 1-A.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Death of the author isn't overulling the highest authority with your favorite headcanon tho.
Click to expand...
never said it was, but the author can't just make shit up either... Outside of the text, he's not the highest authority and he can't contradict his own work.
 
Hasty12345 said:
never said it was, but the author can't just make shit up either... Outside of the text, he's not the highest authority and he can't contradict his own work.
Click to expand...
He's just confirming what's already in the VN while giving additional info to things he left in the dark.

We definitely use WoG on this wiki, and the only thing done is confirming what was already left obvious in the work itself, as shown in the OP.

Since Last Note's so-called "retcon" has been explained and contradicted already, there's no reason to dismiss Ryushiki07 as someone who doesn't know what he's writing about.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Looks like you're one of those guys who think Death of the Author is a thing to be thrown everytime uh.
Click to expand...
No, I'm one of those guys who thinks the author can't say whatever he/she wants about their franchise and their statements be taken as fact when/if it contradicts the actual work...

QuasiYuri said:
We definitely use WoG on this wiki
Click to expand...
When its convenient sure.

QuasiYuri said:
Since Last Note's so-called "retcon" has been explained and contradicted already, there's no reason to dismiss Ryushiki07 as someone who doesn't know what he's writing about.
Click to expand...
Unless his statements do contradict his work. Whether they do or don't idrc.
 
Pain_to12 said:
When it does not contradict the actual work or as a supporting evidence or explanation for something in the actual work
Click to expand...
Yeah man, but if you look at the original text I was responding to, the person holds the author as an authority that succeeds all interpretation, which isn't inherently the case due to death of the author where WoG is concerned.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Yeah man, but if you look at the original text I was responding to, the person holds the author as an authority that succeeds all interpretation, which isn't inherently the case due to death of the author where WoG is concerned.
Click to expand...
I just held the point here because there is absolutely nothing that contradicts what he said. The only thing would be the retcon, which I have already shown that even in the new official version of the game everything stays the same, and is only interpretive for Featherine's manifestation of that analogy.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Anyway, my thoughts on a possible counter-argument that could still be made even under my view were more-or-less this: Given that the journey of the Voyagers as a whole is what is stated to have no endpoint, it's possible to argue that Lambda was just mistaken about the world of witches actually being an infinite ladder, thus meaning the only hierarchy that's actually infinite is the third one. I think Darksmash proposed something similar up there, even? (Basically just skimmed through the relevant responses after reading through the OP, so, sorry if I missed anything).
Click to expand...
Except if i interpret it in a weird way, doesn't this text tell by Ultima would still lead to same level of downgrade than what proposed in the OP?

As the three would still make just one infinite ladder.
 
Regidian said:
Except if i interpret it in a weird way, doesn't this text tell by Ultima would still lead to same level of downgrade than what proposed in the OP?

As the three would still make just one infinite ladder.
Click to expand...
Yup, I explained how it would end up being the same in my answer to that part.
 
Alonik said:
I just held the point here because there is absolutely nothing that contradicts what he said. The only thing would be the retcon, which I have already shown that even in the new official version of the game everything stays the same, and is only interpretive for Featherine's manifestation of that analogy.
Click to expand...
I'm personally indifferent to the specific point here, if it's decided the WoG is valid then I'm in no way against it's use. I guess I just took your wording in the one post to "hyper-literal".
 
Gwirgisdagoat said:
The witches becoming a creator themselves or becoming one is literally pointless, the domain of the creator existing above the witches domain (which is proved by the fact featherine is not a creator even though she exists above the domain of witches)still stands and in that way the cosmology still stands for the qualifications of boundless, furthermore I don’t get why the misconception of Featherine being a creator still exists when it was out right stated for that to not be the case in the Last Note back in 2019
Click to expand...
It honestly doesn’t
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

AppleLord
Quincy Physiology “Electron” Removal CRT
Replies
12
Views
2K
Damage3245
Damage3245
AlexZiggy
  • Locked
Saint Seiya The Lost Upgrade (2-A)
Replies
26
Views
3K
AlexZiggy
AlexZiggy
Minaaaa
  • Locked
Sentai 2-C Upgrade
Replies
21
Views
2K
Minaaaa
Minaaaa
Minaaaa
Ryusoulger Ability Update
Replies
14
Views
903
Minaaaa
Minaaaa
07th Expansion
Replies
35
Views
5K
Iiliminal
Iiliminal
Back
Top