What tier does this qualify for? (Potential grey area)

[Crzer07]

So transcendent in a realm beyond infinite dimensions, sounds like it would be Hyperverse level+ if put into wording. So essentially it is like infinity + 1

The First Firmament is another blatant example that fits perfectly well with what your describing.

So yes there seems to be a lack of further clarification which has led to threads being created such as this one.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk has replied:

To be completly honest I never saw why "beyond mathematics" would be a fundamental criteria. A lot of 1-A haven't actually shown something in the regards and it is actually pretty impossible to say what it means.

This begins by the fact that mathematics has simply no generally accepted definition (which is kinda ironic for the science that values definitions so much).

If you look below for example you will find many different understandings of such a topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_mathematics

And if you define mathematics as something like the study of patterns or the study of necessary conclusions or the mental process of performing inductive and effective conclusion... are things really beyond math then?

I mean fuzzy set theory is an example of how one can outright invent completly new, even non-binary, logic and do math with it.

Being beyond math is on one hand, if rigourously inforced, nigh-impossible to prove, if not directly stated, and on the other hand the implications of what that means for a character are increadibly vague.

Hence, if you want my honest opinion, I think the being beyond math requirement should be removed.

btw. for general "and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics" is even worse given that metaphysics as a branch of philosophy is technically a science, I believe (well, if it is done scientific. There is also lots of philosophers that aren't quite scientific (albeit what is scientific or not is also a difficult debate)).

That the study of logic is also a science doesn't really make this better either.

All in all "Tier 1-A requires that the character was so great that it could not be assessed in terms of dimensions regardless of their number. That's all." as DarkLK wrote is basically my understanding of what 1-A should be as well.

And in regards to the entire "mass or not mass" debate: A tier 1-A can have mass, but can not be wholly defined only through that. I mean Sai Akuto for example contains his stories and his stories contain mass, so Sai Akuto also has mass. But his being is more than just the mass it has.

And if mass is something different than the mass current physics describes it could of course be anything.

 

[Antvasima]

So I suppose that we should get rid of the "and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics" wording.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Tiering_System&diff=1719818&oldid=1714366

Is there anything else that needs to be updated as well?

 

[Antvasima]

For example in the Outerverse page?

 

[Aeyu]

It might be prudent to put under the 1-A definition that these characters can still have some degree of physical properties, though this puts them beneath characters who are 1-A and surpass all physicality and concepts, which is why I was more partial to the High 1-B proposal in the first place. 1-A now becomes even broader with who qualifies, and I could potentially see people other than myself (I didn't back that proposal to cause trouble, I promise) trying to define a Low 1-A tier in the future.

But yes, you might want to clarify that one can have some degree of physical attributes applied to them and still be outerversal since this is the new definition you have agreed upon. I just think that this opens up a new can of worms, because under these new terms, characters like Destiny of the Endless, Downstreamers, Slaanesh, Gork and Mork, Kaela Mensha Khaine,The God Emperor of Mankind, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Malal, and Khorne (WH40K fans interject if there are any others) now need to be upgraded to 1-A based on the explanation behind their rating (I would like to mention that DarkLK himself agreed on this.) Destiny would be 1-A for affecting Lucifer Morningstar, the Downstreamers would be 1-A based on 1-A no longer requiring one to be beyond science and physics, and the WH40K characters would be 1-A for being unbound by dimensions and physical reality, as well as being superior to a high-end Hyperverse level multiverse, though 1-B, possibly 1-A would probably be a safer and more prudent rating.

 

[Crzer07]

Main Operator of the Metaco makes for another.

There are so far 3 varieties of High 1-B: the regular kind of being infinite dimensional, being above infinite dimensions as per this case, and being beyond multiple hyperverses (Multi-Hyperverse level?). Implying that you can bust infinite hyperverses, each and every one of them being infinite dimensional or above, and still won't pass for 1-A. I guess there really is a gap between them much much larger than what most have an impression about high 1-B or what has led to believe.

Not only that, The Creator of Regulums is Multi-Outerverse level but you can leave that separate can of worms for another day.

 

[Aeyu]

That's not how Outerverse level works, and that verse might be prone to deletion in the future. The Low Outerverse level proposal was based around my and other users' arguments regarding everything I've said in this thread about this grey area. If you're above infinite dimensions, but still within the framework of dimensionality, you would be the highest end of High 1-B, or 1-A if you're considered dimensionless, based on the new definition. The definition of 1-A was and is the main contention point with any theories regarding the tiering system, mainly the distinction of what is within the realm of physics and description and what is outside of those descriptions. "Hyperverse," as well, only refers to higher dimensional structures past what is currently accepted by Superstring/M-Theory, which are the commonly accepted scientific theories regarding spatio-temporal dimensions. Multi-Hyperversal characters would essentially still be Hyperverse/High Hyperverse level, in the same way that if you destroy multiple universal totalities that are only 3-dimensional, you are still only Universe level.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, all that we have clarified is that what is necessary to qualify is strictly to surpass the concepts of all dimensions of time and space in their entirety. I do not think that we need to upgrade any characters because of it, and I am awaiting replies from DarkLK and DontTalk regarding if I have to modify the Outerverse page as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we have already had a discussion about Low Outerverse level, and the proposal was rejected due to that it would unnecessarily overcomplicate our system, and given that most of us do not have the expertise to make a distinction.

 

[Aeyu]

Those characters were all potentially 1-A anyway, though. Downstreamers are High 1-B, possibly 1-A for the reasons outlined above regarding being above dimensionality, but still encompassed by mathematical concepts; this would change to 1-A since 1-A no longer requires one to surpass all concepts of physicality. I could see how Destiny would remain the same, but the Chaos Gods are strictly described as being unlimited by dimensionality or physicality as referenced in each of their profiles, and would thus warrant a possibly 1-A or 1-A ranking, something DarkLK also agreed upon.

And that is true, having observed the thread myself, but this was largely based on the definition of 1-A at the time, which has since broadened due to clarifying the tier slightly. I am not arguing for this tier's existence, but I am positing that it is possible that other users or staff might make this argument in the future because of this more rigid distinction, which was my main premise behind the High 1-B definition being changed instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, such issues have to be discussed individually.

Also, we are not going to get a Low 1-A tier.

 

[Aeyu]

That could be arranged, if at all possible. Would you be able to make a staff discussion about it? I'm sure staff and all knowledgeable parties would be willing to contribute individually under the terms of the new, clarified 1-A tier. (which I am unsure that anyone even knows about)

Also, I am not trying to provide arguments for its existence or undermine the tiering system in any way; I was only saying that users might pester admins about this in the future, which is never conducive for admins and mods with better things to do.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we are busy enough already. If people want to upgrade an individual franchise, they can take it up in a content revision thread.

 

[Aeyu]

I might have to take it upon myself to make such a thread/threads, although I feel as if it/they will quickly turn into a staff discussion anyway, given that these sorts of discussions are usually prone to becoming very hectic and disorganized, which is why I thought it might be better to make it staff-only from the beginning.

I have one final query (related to my above post). If a character transcends spatial and temporal dimensions, but are still restricted by other kinds of physical dimensions, are they a High 1-B character? This is in relation to a post on another thread, as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that I might have to take up the issue. I was planning to ask for for their input regarding DarkLK's disagreement about our Regenerationn standards anyway. If DarkLK disagrees, we should usually revise.

 

[Aeyu]

I just think it might be best, given that discussions such as that can become very contentious very quickly and lead to undesirable consequences. If you are too busy, I can possibly contact other staff members who might be able to take up such a task.

Also, do you have any opinions about my last query?

 

[Antvasima]

I have started such a thread. I would appreciate if you please permanently stop bothering the staff about this.

As long as a character is bound any infinite number of dimensions, they are High 1-B. However, I do not think that there are other types of dimensions than space and time.

 

[Aeyu]

I see. I do apologize for any inconvenience it might have caused, but I was only curious for consistency's sake, and I found this discussion to be fun and informative, as opposed to the Low 1-A thread which went nowhere, and became unnecessarily heated very quickly, for which I also humbly apologize. Additionally, out of respect, I will not try to create threads such as this in the future, my intentions never being to undermine the tiering system. And I will, if possible remind other users who do make similar threads of the outcomes associated. I have nothing left to add in regard to asking for discussions/clarifications.

In reference to my second question, I am only asking that if dimensional analysis (referring to any physical dimension, not just space and time, but mass and charge, as well as other base quantities) can be applied to a character, are they still High 1-B? This is more in relation to a question in another thread. It would be helpful to know so that this thread can be promptly closed.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, sorry, and unless DarkLK or DontTalk are willing to clarify this, I do not think that you will get an answer.

I should probably close this thread. It is turning extremely tiresome.

 

[Aeyu]

I will ask them instead. Thank you, please close it.