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What tier does this qualify for? (Potential grey area)
- Thread starter Aeyu
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Moved to questions and answers. :^)
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you mean like nug and yeb ?
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- #52
People were disagreeing on the rating, though. There were several different opinions, and the post was moved from the General Discussion board so that staff might be able to better answer this.
(Edit: No, 1-A only qualifies a being for High-Godly. True Godly must be specified in the character's profile.)
(Edit: No, 1-A only qualifies a being for High-Godly. True Godly must be specified in the character's profile.)
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Well, the premise seems contradictory. If the character in question does transcend all concepts of dimensions of time and space, then it is 1-A. However, if it does not transcend mathematics, it is High 1-B.
I thought that the two concepts automatically included each other.
I thought that the two concepts automatically included each other.
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true-godly regen corresponds to transduality, if said charachter can survive total erasure in the duality of 1|0 then it would likley fit into the criteria of 1-A.
chaos gods like Khorne and other WH40K are unbounded by the laws of nature , though they however have not ascended all dimensions?
chaos gods like Khorne and other WH40K are unbounded by the laws of nature , though they however have not ascended all dimensions?
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- #57
Well, in physics and math, one can have dimensionless properties, which would be outside of the scope of spatio-temporal dimensions, such as mass, but there are others. So *hypothetically,* it could be possible to be a being which transcends all spatio-temporal dimensions, but is still contained within the fields of maths and physics, as well as not entirely transcending all concepts. Which, by all rights, as you said, is High 1-B. But the current description for the tiers is a little vague on this, which has caused confusion for myself and a few others.
(Edit: @Prospect, that's because they're not technically beyond all concepts of time and space, which is why they have a possibly higher rating. Also, True Godly regen is characterized by Regenerationn from an outerversal substance which can survive the destruction of all possible things, as I understand it.)
(Edit: @Prospect, that's because they're not technically beyond all concepts of time and space, which is why they have a possibly higher rating. Also, True Godly regen is characterized by Regenerationn from an outerversal substance which can survive the destruction of all possible things, as I understand it.)
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DarkLK has replied:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1047570
>"A being which is native to/possesses power from a realm"
Sounds like a nonsensical nonsense to me.
What is the difference where the character gets its power? Even if the source of power is tier 0 being this proves nothing without a clear context.
Honestly, your interpretations of high tiers have already so far removed from my definitions that I'm not sure that I can even comment on something.
For example I do not understand why high tiers should automatically receive some kind of Regenerationn and how they connected with loud statements like "beyond the math".
Tier 1-A requires that the character was so great that it could not be assessed in terms of dimensions regardless of their number. That's all.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1047570
>"A being which is native to/possesses power from a realm"
Sounds like a nonsensical nonsense to me.
What is the difference where the character gets its power? Even if the source of power is tier 0 being this proves nothing without a clear context.
Honestly, your interpretations of high tiers have already so far removed from my definitions that I'm not sure that I can even comment on something.
For example I do not understand why high tiers should automatically receive some kind of Regenerationn and how they connected with loud statements like "beyond the math".
Tier 1-A requires that the character was so great that it could not be assessed in terms of dimensions regardless of their number. That's all.
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Should I respond/clarify on his wall, at all?
The source of power, to be fair, does not really matter, I was merely using that as a reference point to try to give some context.
And I agree with his statements, but the point was and is that 1-A, by their definition, are beyond all concepts, physics and mathematical assumption, as explained on the Tiering System page:
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics."
Would a clarification still be possible, though? (for High 1-B, it could reference that you can be a dimensionless being, but if still within the boundaries of a conceptual/physical framework, you cannot qualify for 1-A) Several profiles already might fall into this pitfall, (such as the Chaos Gods, as referenced by Azathoth above) and I still believe that it would prevent these kinds of questions in the future.
The source of power, to be fair, does not really matter, I was merely using that as a reference point to try to give some context.
And I agree with his statements, but the point was and is that 1-A, by their definition, are beyond all concepts, physics and mathematical assumption, as explained on the Tiering System page:
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics."
Would a clarification still be possible, though? (for High 1-B, it could reference that you can be a dimensionless being, but if still within the boundaries of a conceptual/physical framework, you cannot qualify for 1-A) Several profiles already might fall into this pitfall, (such as the Chaos Gods, as referenced by Azathoth above) and I still believe that it would prevent these kinds of questions in the future.
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Aeyu said:
In the context of the connection with physics and size/dimensions. This is a natural consequence, not a criterion. Everything is relative. At some metaphysical metaphorical level, there can be anything that is supposedly understandable and describeble. Some loud statements like: "beyond physics," "beyond logic," "beyond concepts," "beyond mathematics," "beyond description" are not a proof of 1-A in itself. This also works in the opposite direction.
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But as referenced above, there are physical properties that exist which are not contained only within the context of spatio-temporal dimensions, and are certainly not beyond math or physics, which is why I asked the question to begin with. All of the other arguments I've made are only filler for that central point. I politely ask only for a clarification, so that in the future, these sorts of misunderstandings won't be had.
Also, as mentioned above by Azathoth, the Chaos Gods are considered dimensionless, but do not possess any 1-A feats.
Also, as mentioned above by Azathoth, the Chaos Gods are considered dimensionless, but do not possess any 1-A feats.
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- #69
I will give an example of such a being: This hypothetical being in question exceeds the complexity of an infinite or any number of dimensions, and is a "dimensionless," entity, being unrestricted by time and space. However, they are still restricted by mathematical constants and physical laws, which may or may not work the same or differently. But they are not unknowable entities, and they might still have mass (a dimensionless property) , physicality and other constants, just nothing based on axis and vertices like spatio-temporal dimensions, being an undefined, but not undefinable entity. They could be scientifically examined, in other words.
The issue is EXACTLY this, the definition of 1-A:
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics."
The being I described could still be understood scientifically, but they would have a dimensionless property in place of their dimensions, being an undefinable variable.
This could work into High 1-B's current definition, which goes on to state:
"Take note that even if a character is a more than countably infinite number of times superior to an infinite-dimensional space, or similar, it would still usually only qualify for High 1-B, as long as the character does not transcend the concepts of time and space altogether."
All I ask for is a small clarification, in that a being could be beyond spatio-temporal dimensionality, but not undefinable by physics and scientific definition, still putting them in this range. This might potentially help several profiles in the future, especially if said characters are inferior to, but somewhat comparable to 1-A characters (like Destiny of the Endless. )
The issue is EXACTLY this, the definition of 1-A:
"Characters that have no dimensional limitations, and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics."
The being I described could still be understood scientifically, but they would have a dimensionless property in place of their dimensions, being an undefinable variable.
This could work into High 1-B's current definition, which goes on to state:
"Take note that even if a character is a more than countably infinite number of times superior to an infinite-dimensional space, or similar, it would still usually only qualify for High 1-B, as long as the character does not transcend the concepts of time and space altogether."
All I ask for is a small clarification, in that a being could be beyond spatio-temporal dimensionality, but not undefinable by physics and scientific definition, still putting them in this range. This might potentially help several profiles in the future, especially if said characters are inferior to, but somewhat comparable to 1-A characters (like Destiny of the Endless. )
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This can help with the clarification as well, as it defines physics thus:
"It has been argued by some physicists, e.g., M. J. Duff, that the laws of physics are inherently dimensionless."
"It has been argued by some physicists, e.g., M. J. Duff, that the laws of physics are inherently dimensionless."
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To be honest, I do not really want to consider "hypothetical" things ...
might still have mass (a dimensionless property)
"Dimensionless" mass it is simply the ratio of two values of mass where the mass designation units (dimensional quantities) simply cancel each other out. And this basically applies to all dimensionless quantities. I have no idea how this can be applied to a creature that "exceeds the complexity of an infinite or any number of dimensions".
The issue is EXACTLY this, the definition of 1-A:
Not just a difference but also a qualitative conceptual superiority over dimensional structures of any complexity. Of course, dimensional analysis can not be applied.
might still have mass (a dimensionless property)
"Dimensionless" mass it is simply the ratio of two values of mass where the mass designation units (dimensional quantities) simply cancel each other out. And this basically applies to all dimensionless quantities. I have no idea how this can be applied to a creature that "exceeds the complexity of an infinite or any number of dimensions".
The issue is EXACTLY this, the definition of 1-A:
Not just a difference but also a qualitative conceptual superiority over dimensional structures of any complexity. Of course, dimensional analysis can not be applied.
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- #73
The fact of the matter, and my main argument is, and has been, that they could still be well within the realm of physics or math, and have physical attributes, which would be contradictory to the current tiering system. Would you truly put a character like this or similar, if one appears or is agreed on to have these attributes, at 1-A, even though this directly contradicts the definition on the Tiering System page stating 1-A are characters are "beyond all scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics"? Would a single line of text to prevent future misunderstandings (like Low 1-A arguments) really be that much of a disservice? It already is sort of implied with High 1-B's definition: "Infinitely superior to infinite dimensional space". Plus, again, characters, like the Chaos Gods, are considered to be beyond dimensions. Why aren't they 1-A then?
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The fact of the matter, and the *main* argument is, and has been, that they could still be well within the realm of physics or math, and have physical attributes, which would be contradictory to the current tiering system.
Dimensionless quantities do not contradict the system since they are not properties of dimensionless objects, but the coefficients of some properties (in particular, dimensional properties).
If the dimensionless property of mass can be applied to your hypothetical character then this character has a mass property, that is, it has three-dimensional parameters. Of course, this is not 1-A, because it is not even a dimensionless being.
Would a single line of text to prevent future misunderstandings
Let this line remain in place, if this helps prevent such problems.
Plus, again, characters, like the Chaos Gods, are considered to be beyond dimensions. Why aren't they 1-A then?
How should I know? I did not deal with this issue. Characters should possess a quality superiority and not just be "beyond".
Dimensionless quantities do not contradict the system since they are not properties of dimensionless objects, but the coefficients of some properties (in particular, dimensional properties).
If the dimensionless property of mass can be applied to your hypothetical character then this character has a mass property, that is, it has three-dimensional parameters. Of course, this is not 1-A, because it is not even a dimensionless being.
Would a single line of text to prevent future misunderstandings
Let this line remain in place, if this helps prevent such problems.
Plus, again, characters, like the Chaos Gods, are considered to be beyond dimensions. Why aren't they 1-A then?
How should I know? I did not deal with this issue. Characters should possess a quality superiority and not just be "beyond".
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- #75
What I'm talking about is that this dimensionless being, or any in this range, really, *could* potentially have some sort of physicality. Not a 3-D property. 3-D physical mass is irrelevant to this grey area. Mass exists in higher dimensions, and could possibly even beyond them, if physics exist regardless of dimension. Additionally, just because a character doesn't have spatio-temporal dimensions doesn't mean that different physics couldn't apply.
About the line of text, what I was saying, and all I've been saying, is that maybe a single line could be added or clarified in the High 1-B area wherein even if a character surpasses dimensions entirely, that if they are still within some framework of physics or mathematical comprehension, or are not beyond conceptualization entirely, that they cannot qualify for 1-A due to not being beyond scientific definition or physics. (Of course, probably less verbose...I would hope you wouldn't use my definition!) This goes with what you are saying with "qualitative superiority".
Regarding the last part, the Chaos Gods / God Emperor of Mankind. This is the text regarding Slaanesh's rating, for instance (whom all these characters [Chaos Gods, GeOM, I mean] are equal or equivalent to: "Hyperverse level, possibly higher (Transcendent of the material universe, which contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'. Unbound by the restrictions of physical reality, such as form and its dimensions, save any it choose to impose on itself and its surroundings.")
(Edit: After looking at other profiles and reading some more, basically, you could rationalize it like this: Even a spatio-temporally dimensionless being could still be considered High 1-B if they are above time and space as a whole at an infinite level, but they are still bound by other physical "dimensions," or properties which keep them in a framework of physics and thus possessing physical, scientifically definable attributes.)
About the line of text, what I was saying, and all I've been saying, is that maybe a single line could be added or clarified in the High 1-B area wherein even if a character surpasses dimensions entirely, that if they are still within some framework of physics or mathematical comprehension, or are not beyond conceptualization entirely, that they cannot qualify for 1-A due to not being beyond scientific definition or physics. (Of course, probably less verbose...I would hope you wouldn't use my definition!) This goes with what you are saying with "qualitative superiority".
Regarding the last part, the Chaos Gods / God Emperor of Mankind. This is the text regarding Slaanesh's rating, for instance (whom all these characters [Chaos Gods, GeOM, I mean] are equal or equivalent to: "Hyperverse level, possibly higher (Transcendent of the material universe, which contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'. Unbound by the restrictions of physical reality, such as form and its dimensions, save any it choose to impose on itself and its surroundings.")
(Edit: After looking at other profiles and reading some more, basically, you could rationalize it like this: Even a spatio-temporally dimensionless being could still be considered High 1-B if they are above time and space as a whole at an infinite level, but they are still bound by other physical "dimensions," or properties which keep them in a framework of physics and thus possessing physical, scientifically definable attributes.)
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I'm not trying to pester him, and I'm sorry if this is being construed in such a manner. I'm just trying to see if he or the rest of you'll think a small note could be helpful is all. (Particularly, my last post's query, in the edit) It could solve many potential future problems and be a beneficial thing regarding tiering in the future. Please at least consider my core reasoning; that is all I ask.
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Mass exists in higher dimensions, and could possibly even beyond them, if physics exist regardless of dimension.
What kind of mass beyond dimensions is actually studied by modern science? What kind of phenomena beyond dimensions studied by modern science? Hypothetically, the field of physics and science can be expanded in the future. Some theories can be confirmed and others refuted. But what happens today?
Slaanesh
If he/she is actually superior to any number of dimensions and does not have dimensional properties (even indirectly), then why not be 1-A.
Although I personally can not say for sure about this, since I'm not familiar enough with the WH40K canon.
What kind of mass beyond dimensions is actually studied by modern science? What kind of phenomena beyond dimensions studied by modern science? Hypothetically, the field of physics and science can be expanded in the future. Some theories can be confirmed and others refuted. But what happens today?
Slaanesh
If he/she is actually superior to any number of dimensions and does not have dimensional properties (even indirectly), then why not be 1-A.
Although I personally can not say for sure about this, since I'm not familiar enough with the WH40K canon.
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First, I would like to apologize if this is has been an irritation to you in any way, I do not mean it as such. It's simply been a contentious topic among several users and staff, and I was told it would be prudent to consult you.
All that I'm saying is that those sorts of things are a potentiality, nothing more, in the same way that infinite dimensions are a potentiality and not necessarily provable spatio-temporally, outside of hypothetics in math. I would argue that the same could apply here. I have humbled my last argument for a line of text in High 1-B's description in the Tiering System down further to the last edit of my former post, regarding physical dimensions and properties outside of the spatio-temporal leading to a High 1-B since they are not superior to ALL physics in potentiality. (There are other possible dimensional physical properties, other than those of the spatial and temporal, the spatial and temporal being what "infinite dimensions," usually refers to in the tiering system.) I would like to know what you think based off that, if possible. If I am not mistaken, this is why the Chaos Gods, GeOM and similar are rated as they are.
All that I'm saying is that those sorts of things are a potentiality, nothing more, in the same way that infinite dimensions are a potentiality and not necessarily provable spatio-temporally, outside of hypothetics in math. I would argue that the same could apply here. I have humbled my last argument for a line of text in High 1-B's description in the Tiering System down further to the last edit of my former post, regarding physical dimensions and properties outside of the spatio-temporal leading to a High 1-B since they are not superior to ALL physics in potentiality. (There are other possible dimensional physical properties, other than those of the spatial and temporal, the spatial and temporal being what "infinite dimensions," usually refers to in the tiering system.) I would like to know what you think based off that, if possible. If I am not mistaken, this is why the Chaos Gods, GeOM and similar are rated as they are.
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