Weapon AP

[XING06]

The weapon attack potency for the M319 Grenade Luancher, M45 Shotgun, and M90 Shotgun are way off. It's based off gameplay stats as compared to actual feats. Halo UNSC infantry weaponry has always been scaled similarly to real life weaponry, as it is now those weapons are grossly overpowered.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Theyre actually all based on canon feats in the series

 

[XING06]

Really? Cool could I see them? Even the shotguns?

 

[XING06]

A shotgun generally has worse penetrative power compared to an assault rifle and not that much more energy

 

[WeeklyBattles]

https://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M90_Close_Assault_Weapon_System#UNSC_Remarks

"I remember using the M90 when I was in Sigma Octanus IV. I was in a hotel with a bunch of buddies, doing some mopping-up, and at one time I managed to blow an Elite's head off. I mean, I literally blew it off. I couldn't even imagine what that felt like, but all the same he got what he deserved."

Yeah yeah i know using a wiki as evidence is a no no but i dont have the book on hand to give the scan itself

 

[XING06]

Ok then...cool I guess that works considering it is an 8 gauge shell with future tech.

Based on that it should be 9C+ - 9A though considering it was an elite not 8C (only Ultras have that good shields) especially if the elite's shields were already gone (9B-9A physically considering an Elite's face is generally lightly armored). It should not be 8C which is stronger than the fuel rod cannon.

Also, could you send me the feat for the grenade launcher? Thanks because the wiki says (I know that's generally a no go too) that the M319's grenades are pretty much the same as the M9 which we have as 9A

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, a lot of Halo's weapons and vehicles as well as some of the fodder enemies are all over the place and fairly exaggerated with their tiers. There's like numerous loopholes and reverse powerscalings going around. But yeah, we really need to stop taking every single game mechanic so literally; especially if what happens in the books strongly contradict it.

But yeah, I don't think shotguns are any higher than 9-B tbh; grenade launchers could be around 9-A. Smaller vehicles such as Warthogs really shouldn't be Building level and are more like Small Building level at best in terms of durability. Even Scorpion Tanks are kind of dubious on the 8-C durability. I'm going to save the frequently occurring problems with conventional firearms, vehicles, weapons topic for another thread because I have a lot to say, but it's going to be a little complicated to start.

Well first off, even my 8-C calcs for Fuel Rods and Rocket Launchers are actually pretty highballed, but I'll get to that when I have more free time. But it's the rest of the loops is where the problems come from. First off, the rocket launcher calc was made under the assumption that it completely fragmentizes half a Scorpion tank in one hit; and the other half with the 2nd shot. If the rocket launcher ****** it up that much in one blow, that would be every reason not to scale them from the rockets. But more importantly, the rockets not really destroying them that much is also a reason for the rockets not to be 8-C in the first place which in turn gives the tanks no reason to have durability on that level.

So again, the fact that the 2nd strongest UNSC weapon doesn't even have a legit 8-C feat and the most durable tanks has even less durability, there's like 0 reason outside of reverse power scaling for any weapon or ground vehicle to be on that level. Ramming vehicles is only 9-B and does not really faze Spartans in canon; they may in the games, but so does a 3 inch stream of water. It really only takes 9-A attack potency to destroy a titanium vehicle Warthog's size, so there's that too. Shotguns don't do that much damage to Spartans and it oneshots weaker Elites in canon, not Arbiters or other Spartan level Elites. One Shotting Spartans is also a game mechanic. Also we have like rock paper scissors loops. Elite Ultra's tank Rockets and Fuel Rods, vehicles one shot them, and those same vehicles get one shotted by weapons much weaker than Rockets? What's next, High 4-C Goombas do to one shotting Mario? Or fodder Brachiosauruses being 5-A due to surviving hits from Bahamut?

I also have problems even with the stronger troop enemies having exaggerated durability such Prometheans taking something in gameplay that actually oneshots them in the cutscenes and books. And same with Hunters; they can't tank Incineration cannons at all in canon. Also, there's the fact that shields and physical durability distinction, in which the shields don't protect from melee. So yeah, there are a lot of problems, but I feel like it might take a while.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The feats of all the weapons all comes from the books, they dont contradict anything

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also you do know that vehicles can have projectile weapons that are stronger than their durability right...?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know that part, but the ramming strength really isn't all the strong in canon, nor is their durability. Wraiths of course a glass cannons. But still, some of the weaker/lighter/bullet based weapons are highballed; it's the same thing as Deadshot's guns being 4-B because they harmed Wonder Woman and than upgrade Batman's Kevlar suit because it tanks those bullets.

Traditional firearms in general should just scale from their from own calcs and nothing more, and we should just treat damaging characters with durability higher than that as PIS.

 

[XING06]

Hey Weekly which book had the grenade launcher feat though? Could you send it to me?

 

[KarmodF]

Why weapons cant be scaled to characters? We do that to various verses why Halo needs to be the exception?

 

[XING06]

It's not that they can't be scaled to characters - it's that the shotguns in lore wouldn't even scratch the characters (when armored). The only instances we have so far are from gameplay (which we don't use) and Weekly's quote of the M90 (which would again give the M90 anywhere from 9C-9A tops based on the shielding we have and 9B-9A based on pure physical stats especially considering an elite's head is generally unarmored).

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The weapons in lore do scratch the characters, i can try to find it but there's a quote where one character almost had his head taken off by a fragment of a grenade

 

[XING06]

Yeah that's a nearly unarmored character wearing a pressure suit. Or maybe you're referring to the ODST who is in 9B armor. Also sorry I didn't mean all weapons I mean specifically UNSC small arms. Those can take out lower ranked Elites (without shields) at best b/c of their penetration.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Small arms dont scale the only ones that do are heavy ordinance, explosives, and assault weapons

 

[XING06]

You made shotguns scale; those are small arms. And again the feat you gave would be 9A at best based on shields and the fact that the Sanghelli generally don't heavily armor their faces; in all honesty it's closer to 9B.

Also, a grenade launcher isn't exactly heavy ordinance (in real life its still referred to as a light weapon) and we have the explosive weapons mostly scaled at 9A (See M9 grenade and Fuel Rod cannon).

The only exceptions are the rocket launcher which Dark Dragon has admitted to possibly being overcalced and the ARC-920 which you made.

In lore, the ARC-920 is nowhere near that powerful - it's similar to the M99 Stanchion just lighter which we have a general idea of the power for. It fires a small 5.4mm tungsten round at 15000 m/s. That gives it 9B levels of energy at most. The ARC-920 has a larger slug which is also explosive but the difference should still only boost it up to at most 9A.

 

[XING06]

Honestly it looks like you just took the stuff from Halopedia and Halo wiki. You do realize that that's gameplay elements right?

"An M90 can kill a fully shielded Spartan and most fully shielded Sangheili with one shot, and a single pellet of the 15 in the shell can kill an Unggoy" - current vs battles M90 page.

"...it can kill a fully shielded Sangheili with one shell at point-blank range...Each pellet is quite powerful, with only about one or two needed to kill an Unggoy in range..." - Halopedia 8 gauge Soelkraft magnum shell page

The actual shotgun was designed to have high power but low penetration ("low chance of penetrating ship hulls" - the same material Spartan armor is made of).

Same with the ARC-920 "The Railgun can kill Spartans and all but the highest-ranked Knights and Elites with one shot" (Both pages in the other 2 wikis say exactly what you put as justification). Like I said above that's not true in lore.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bruh, you cant just take every aspect of a weapon in a game and slap 'muh gameplay' on it, especially when its consistent with the books

 

[XING06]

No it isn't consistent with the books. If you've read any of what I've said above you'll see that I've consistently proven that even heavier anti-material waeponry for the UNSC is only at most 9A.

And also the wikis where you got the justifications from specifically say that this is gameplay advantages. Otherwise the DMR would also have 9A damage b/c in the games it's capable of oneshotting brutes with a headshot.

 

[KarmodF]

When you just post "is inconsistent with the lore", "that doesnt appear in the books", etc... You need to post sources to prove yout point, not just keep posting the same thing over and over.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's not consistent in the books; also, bullets are the biggest PIS in fiction. Not to mention, even characters weaker than Spartan-IIs have survived shotguns and other 9-B weapons in the books. Now Assault Rifles had killed shieldless Brute Chieftains in the books, but even Mark IV Spartans are typically treated as immune to Magnums and Assault Rifles unless said bullet hit the visor. It's just a trope in fiction for everybody that isn't made of metal or doesn't wear armor to have bullets and sharp weapons be their kryptonite. But we don't do that here.

Also, no one said weapons and vehicles can't scale from characters, but the fact is fodder weapons and vehicles can't scale from top tier characters. Bullets in Halo are literally just bullets, same goes for a lot of FPS franchises like CoD, Battlefield, Wolfenstein, Gears of War, Duke Nukem, ect. They aren't spiritual, demonic energy, magic, ect enhanced, nor are they made of super fictional alloys or amped up by Toon physics, they're just lead bullets. Lead handguns are 9-C, Shotguns and Rifles are Tier 9. Same with tanks; they're just ceramic titanium tanks powered by propane gas, no supernatural or over the top elements. Stronger than their real world counterparts yes due to their statements and/or feats, but not because reverse power scaling.

Also, we actually don't usually scale weapons to each other or from their characters and wielders. If you're talking about The Master Sword from Zelda or the Falchion from Fire Emblem, those are actually special cases. They're legendary holy weapons with Divine Power. For conventional Sci-Fi weapons like Star Wars, we actually don't scale them from the character that use them. Blasters are Tier 9, and Tie Fighters Town level+ with only Large Building level durability; their durability comes from being made of a fictional metal called Durasteel, not from surviving lightsaber strikes. None of the blasters or conventional aircraft or blasters are Large Town level, or better yet Planet level via scaling from Jedi Masters. Star Wars also has things such as using force amplification to enhance the power of their lasers, which those same lasers are way weaker naturally. In fact, looks at Lightsaber profile; it's only 9-C. Though to be fair, melee weapons in general should just have variable tiers as their actual AP is dependant on their wielder. Additionally, the bombs from Zelda have consistently been shown to harm various High 6-C to High 5-A characters, but are only High 7-A based on their own calc.

Now back to the Shotguns, they may severally damage ODST's but they're weaker than even Teenage suitless Spartans. And actual Spartans are typically unfazed by Shotguns. Their gameplay damage ratings are far different then the actual scientifically accurate energy output. Rocket Launchers on the other hand are for more dangerous to Spartans, but not shotguns. And same with the vehicles, you don't scale durability to something that oneshots you; that's the definition of reverse power scaling.

And yeah, as Xing mentioned, my RPG and Fuel Rod cannon calcs are somewhat over calc'd. It shouldn't be assume the every single cubic centimeter is fragmentized in two shots, just how much damage a tank with Scorpion's properties would normally be damaged to the point where a tank doesn't function anymore. And Fuel Rod isn't as overcalc'd but it's using the wrong assumptions for Holly's armor. She wasn't wearing MJOLNIR and was only wearing SPI Armor, which is way lighter and weaker than MJOLNIR. That being said, the calc's would both still be well into 9-A, but I'll recalc those when I have time and good resources.

 

[XING06]

Um I did. I gave direct examples of the given energy calcs for the stuff with the muzzle velocity given from the canon Halo graphic novel. That's an example of the UNSC's near best anti-materiel weaponry.
It says right there ~30,000 J (possible inacuracy). So even if we multiplied that by 3x that that'd still be 9B.

Here's what the Bungie website has to say about the M90 (http://halo.bungie.net/projects/halo3/content.aspx?link=h3shotgu)

It specifically states it was made specifically not to puncture spacecraft hulls, which are made of the same Titanium-A as Spartan armor. This is compared to assault rifles which are 9B with penetration at best.

You have the example of a powerful weapon (capable of busting through reinforced concrete buildings in Contact Harvest) that a shotgun can't even compare to having only 9B energy and you suddenly want to scale that smallarm to 8C based on gameplay? That's literally the lore given energy level for a vehicle mounted gauss cannon - aka one of the hardest hitting weapons in all of Halo.

 

[XING06]

Actually small edit. The ARC-920 is possibly up to 9A. It uses a 16mm slug as compared to the 5.4 mm slug of the Stanchion. So that's 9x more mass. However, the ARC-920 also has an small explosive/incendiary filler that makes it much lighter, so it could still be 9B especially if the extra mass slows it down.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus and XING here. My apologies Weekly.

Also, you shouldn't change statistics without content revision threads. That is against our regulations.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ant I...didnt though, this thread isnt about stats that were changed its about issues with stats that were originally given to the profiles

 

[Antvasima]

@Weekly

Okay. Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[XING06]

@Antvasima

Yeah no sorry if I gave that impression when I asked you to moderate.

 

[XING06]

So are we good?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.