• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
This is meant to be a follow-up to this Thread, which was "recently" accepted. These will mostly be simple changes, like using accepted and used calcs and changing how scaling works. The Profiles are overall inconsistent and of poor quality, but this will only touch the stats/scaling for now.

Gordon Scaling

Firstly, most of them should stop being scaled to Gordon Freeman and instead be scaled on how they interact with other characters/fodder, their feats, the weapons used and their position in the story. This is most obvious when you look at the HECU, which have a direct feat of knocking out Gordon (and being heavily implied of being capable of killing him) NOT being scaled to Gordon while all the others, which are capable due to gameplay reasons, are scaled to Gordon.

Of course, there are some instances where certain characters/enemies can be still scaled to Gordon, like the aforementioned HECU takedown (though the suprise attack would be downscale, as it required two soldiers, an unsuspecting and pre-alien grunt Gordon Freeman and there would scale to 9-A for different reasons) or being boss fights (ex: Antlion Guard, Gonarch or Nihilanth)

New AP/Durability Scaling

Beginning at 9-B: Gordon's and Barney's Crowbar (HL1) are scaled to Headcrabs breaking a concrete wall (1.73 Megajoules), due to being able to harm Headcrabs, but not one-shotting them or having story pieces that suggest that these bars are capable of harming 9-A's outside of gameplay. Pretty simple.

Now up to 9-A: The Standard Zombie, Fast Zombie (downscales), Poison Zombie, HECU Grunts, Father Grigori and the weaker weapons are scaled to a Headcrab Zombie breaking a metal door in two hits (0.007 Tons of TNT).
  • Security Guards armed with a 9mm Pistol (which Gordon can equip) are capable of harming Zombies and killing Zombies with two bullets in a scripted scene.
  • The HECU Grunts are capable of knocking out Gordon Freeman (who hasn't encountered Alien Grunts yet) as mentioned above. The SMG uses the same ammunition as the Pistol. HECU Grunts are also actively killing most personnel of Black Mesa, which includes the aforementioned Security Guards.
  • Father Grigori's entire chapter takes place in an zombie-infested town, where he has set up various traps that are capable of one-shotting even the tougher Zombies. His signature weapon, the Annabelle (Incorrectly referred to as the Shotgun on the Profile, even though the reference for the weapon is a rifle) is capable of killing Zombies in one-shot to at most 2 shots.
  • Fast Zombies, althrough weaker, should still be somewhat comparable to the Standard Zombies. Poison Zombies are way more durable than Standard Zombies to a certain degree.
The Alien Grunt and some of the stronger weapons are scaled to 2 Alien Grunts exploding a wooden gate (0.026 Tons of TNT)
The Antlion Guard, who's only ever encountered by Gordon, with or without those weaker but comparable, can be allowed to scale to Gordon physically, who can survive vaporizing attacks (0.074 Tons of TNT). The Guard is also capable of surviving RPG explosions, which should be comparable to Black Mesa Era Explosives (0.168 Tons of TNT)

Actually, most Characters that have armor (Alien Grunt Armor, HECU Grunt PCV's and Security Guard's Outfit) are immune to regular firearms in those armored spots, only ever being harmed by the Tau Cannon, Gluon Gun or Explosives. Barney Calhoun can survive grenades and explosions using the armor from regular security guards of Black Mesa, so everyone else with armor should scale to that (0.168 Tons of TNT). This also would effect Gordon's HEV armor as well, as it should scale to the Grunt's PCV and above Guard's security vests and helmets.

Now Reaching 8-C: The Gargantua scales to it's feat, where it destroys a giant metal gate (1.85 Tons of TNT).

This also effects the AP of Gordon's experimental weapons, with the Gluon Gun being capable of disposing a Gargantua pretty quickly (with enough ammo) and the Tau Cannon being able to reduce a scientist and a security guard, all of which possess the aforementioned 9-A+ body armor, into skeletal remains and engulf an entire room with an explosion that destroys metal cabinets(?) with an overcharge. The Tau Cannon also uses the same ammunition as the Gluon Gun and can take down Apache Helicoptors in two hits, the same hit amount as the rocket launcher that is 9-A+, and an Osprey with charged (but not overcharged) strikes.

Speed Revision

Theres an argument to be made for it, so I will. Everyone should scale to Gordon in Subsonic+ reactions to some degree. Standard Zombies have fought evenly with Security Guards, even in small spaces, with a notable Security Guard being stated by Kleiner to have often competed and raced Gordon in airducts. There's also Human Grunts being able to jump Gordon before he can react (again, mentioned above), later being overpowered and thrown by Alien Grunts.

As for actual Movement/Travel Speed? The Zombies with the exception of the Fast Zombie would be Below Average Human, Standard and Poison Zombies actively limp and thus aren't that fast, at most we can scale them to preferred walking speeds of average humans. Everyone else (mostly) should have Atheletic Human, as Guard's and Grunts are mostly trained guards to actual military soldiers or alien militaries that overpower the previously mentioned.

Another thing i want to suggest is a possibly/likely Relativistic+ Attack Speed for the Tau Cannon/Gluon Gun. The Tau Cannon is incredibly likely to be a Particle Accelerator, which can accelerate particles up to 80% the speed of light (The Tau Cannon can be charged) and the Gluon Gun is capable of firing continous beams with primary fire, likely a Particle Beam that have velocities nearly the speed of light. They are also experimental prototypes intended to be weapons with one of the weapons being found alongside a laser generator and they both use the same ammunition (Depleted Uranium).

Edit

Based on what was suggested by Mr. Bambu (and a bit of my own), the Tau Cannon and Explosions would get a "Small Building level+, likely Building level+" due to the Tau being able to harm the gargantua and scaling to the Explosives (as explained above) that are capable of harming the Gargantua as well. This also means everyone that scales to explosives (either physically or with armor) also gets "Likely 8-C+". However, the Gluon Gun remains at fully 8-C+ given that it easily kills the Gargantua in roughly 5 seconds.

It was also suggested earlier in the thread that those who downscale to Gordon in speed should have a "Possibly Subsonic+ reactions" rating instead of a full rating. There's probably more evidence that points to everyone having comparable reactions, but I think this is fine as well.

Tl;Dr
  • Most Characters will not be scaled to Gordon (with very few exceptions) and will instead be based on position in story, weapons and feats.
  • Crowbars (HL1) of Gordon and Barney are scaled to Headcrabs breaking walls (1.73 MJ)
  • Most Characters are scaled to Zombies breaking a metal door in two hits (0.007 Tons of TNT), Alien Grunts are scaled to a explosion of a wooden gate (0.026 Tons of TNT), Antlion Guard scales to harming HL-2 Gordon, who can consistently take hits from vaporizing weaponry (0.074 Tons of TNT) and the Gargantua fully scales to breaking a giant metal gate and smashing rocks (1.85 Tons of TNT).
    • Antlion Guards and most armor, including standard Black Mesa Security Vests, are scaled to withstanding RPG/Explosive damage (0.168 Tons of TNT)
    • Tau Cannon and Explosives get "likely 8-C+" due to harming the Gargantua in several hits and having consistent 9-A+ scaling, while the Gluon Gun is fully 8-C due to killings a Gargantua in roughly 5 seconds.
  • Everyone scales to Gordon's Subsonic+ reactions. Everyone, with the exception of Standard and Poison Zombies, get Athletic Movement Speed while the exceptions get Below Average Movement Speed.
    • Tau Cannon and Gluon Gun get a possible/likely Relativistic+ Attack Speed, due to being Particle Accelerators that fire particle beams, being intended as weapons and being found near other experimental weapons of similar speed (like lasers!).
 
Last edited:
I think we should count Dark Matter Energy Balls as atomization as opposed to vaporization.

1. We have an achievement called "Atomizer" for killing 15 Combine soldiers via Energy Balls. This was brought up once but was quickly dissmised in a single response. Apparently a name of an achievement isn't enough, i would agree. But considering how based in science Half-Life is and just how detailed every part of the world is, i don't think it's out of the question. Also other Half-Life 2 achievements are really direct with what they are, so i doubt "Atomizer" is some kind of metaphor or not being literal.

2. It would also be more likely to be Atomization as there is no vapor left for it to be considered Vaporization.

3. If we look at the nature of the Dark Energy and Dark Matter it would make sense if it was Atomization.

I am also sceptical of that Satchel explosion speed feat considering that as far as i am aware, explosions are always potrayed to be instant in speed in Half-Life. But i guess you could debate that it's just gameplay mechanics. I don't know about this one. We should look into it more.

Anyway the rest looks good.
 
I am sceptical of that Satchel explosion speed feat considering that as far as i am aware, explosions are always potrayed to be instant in speed in Half-Life. But i guess you could debate that it's just gameplay mechanics. I don't know about this one. We should look into it more.
Explosives being instantanious in general is likely gameplay mechanics, seeing as the C4 sequence is unskippable and intended to progress the game and other things like bullets are also and often instant in games, yet certain games characters have scaled far above them because they happen to have feats that are above bullet speed.

Also, I think the thing below deserves a more thorough look.
I think we should count Dark Matter Energy Balls as atomization as opposed to vaporization.

1. We have an achievement called "Atomizer" for killing 15 Combine soldiers via Energy Balls. This was brought up once but was quickly dissmised in a single response. Apparently a name of an achievement isn't enough, i would agree. But considering how based in science Half-Life is and just how detailed every part of the world is, i don't think it's out of the question. Also other Half-Life 2 achievements are really direct with what they are, so i doubt "Atomizer" is some kind of metaphor or not being literal.

2. It would also be more likely to be Atomization as there is no vapor left for it to be considered Vaporization.

3. If we look at the nature of the Dark Energy and Dark Matter it would make sense if it was Atomization.
I don't have much to say to this except for point 2. A pretty similar effect happens in Team Fortress 2, another Valve game, but that's considered vaporization unless there is a statement for atomization. I think a similar thing would applied here as well, which would mean we have to get an actual canonical statement of atomization.

There's still the feat of vaporizing Hunters, which has 9-A+ to 8-C+ results, but it's not accepted yet so I didn't include for the CRT.
 
There's still the feat of vaporizing Hunters, which has 9-A+ to 8-C+ results, but it's not accepted yet so I didn't include for the CRT.

I saw this calc. You should try to get someone to evaluate it. I definitely agree with the 8-C+ end. It makes more sense.

I would also like to add that the gate Alien Grunts break doesen't really look like wood. It looks more like metal in the picture used in the calc. If it were metal it would be 8-C.
 
I would also like to add that the gate Alien Grunts break doesen't really look like wood. It looks more like metal in the picture used in the calc. If it were metal it would be 8-C.
The calc does have a metal high end, but I used the low end because that's what typically is accepted unless specified. The wood low end is there because another calc where I assumed the texture to be metal was said by a calc member that it looks closer to wood and that's what was accepted.
 
The calc does have a metal high end, but I used the low end because that's what typically is accepted unless specified. The wood low end is there because another calc where I assumed the texture to be metal was said by a calc member that it looks closer to wood and that's what was accepted.
That's weird since i would say that the texture definitely looks metal like. Plus, i find it weird that a super advanced secret facillity would use wooden doors, especially on a door type such as that. That should be looked into again.

Also who and how many people do we need to agree with the changes here?
 
Should we get the mods in here? Pretty sure everyone that was involved with Half-Life on this agrees with these changes, just like the previous thread.

Other stuff like vaporizing/atomizing Hunters, Alien Grunts breaking a giant door and the satchel explosion speed feat could be done in some other future thread.


Btw HECU profile needs some big updates not just in attack potency and speed but in abillities. We should also count all the equipment they use like all the large explosives and vehicles. Speaking of vehicles. Their M1 Abrams tank has this feat of fragmenting a metal door in one shot:


Freeman can survive multiple direct shots from those tanks.
 
Last edited:
Should we get the mods in here? Pretty sure everyone that was involved with Half-Life on this agrees with these changes, just like the previous thread.

Other stuff like vaporizing/atomizing Hunters, Alien Grunts breaking a giant door and the satchel explosion speed feat could be done in some other future thread.

Btw HECU profile needs some big updates not just in attack potency and speed but in abillities. We should also count all the equipment they use like all the large explosives and vehicles.
Speaking of vehicles. Their M1 Abrams tank has this feat of fragmenting a metal door in one shot. Freeman can survive multiple direct shots from those tanks.
Whether you want to get mods in here is up to you. I don't really want to bother any of them about it.

Yes, those things can be discussed later when they are properly evaluated.

Yeah, the HECU kinda needs some big updates and i'm working on some profile reworks. But I'm focusing the main characterss and the headcrabs first, then I'll try to tackle all the other ones.

That seems impressive, though I need to check how much damage it actually does to figure out the proper scaling. Might be a good late-game Gordon Freeman upgrade if the damage is minimal.
 
Don't know if i have any word on this since i came very late to this entire Half-Life revision but if it wasn't obvious enough from all the other things i posted here. I agree with these changes.
 
I agree with all of this, so i suppose characters like DOG would be 9-A or higher due to fighting a Strider and defeating it.
 
With the suggested scaling, the Strider would have Small Building+ durability with vaporizing level attack potency due to being treated as a boss-level enemy (pretty sure it was also an actual boss fight in EP1, so that helps). DOG and the Striders are definitely something I wanna look into later, though.
 
With the suggested scaling, the Strider would have Small Building+ durability with vaporizing level attack potency due to being treated as a boss-level enemy (pretty sure it was also an actual boss fight in EP1, so that helps). DOG and the Striders are definitely something I wanna look into later, though.
Sure. For now we can leave them in 9-A+ territory. Altough there are definitely grounds for scaling to 8-C.

Anyway, we should contact the moderators. This CRT is sitting here long enough.
 
I think you should contact some mods, for how long this thread has been up, about Half-Life, i remember making a profile for Alyx Vance in the past but it got deleted due to being low quality.
 
I think you should contact some mods, for how long this thread has been up, about Half-Life, i remember making a profile for Alyx Vance in the past but it got deleted due to being low quality.
I'll see if I can get some mods in here tomorrow.

I'm interesested in making that too, though I'm already dealing with a few HL sandboxes already (Barney, Adrian, Headcrab/Zombie, Snark, Tentacle)
 
I'm going to look through this, because it was the first CRT I found that wasn't either comic books or weebshit.
 
The scaling rework compared to Gordon seems great, no arguments there.

Headcrabs scaling point seems fine.

I feel very strange assigning the zombies half of a value of a separate feat simply because the feat they did was part of said feat. Wwe have a default value for the fragmentation of a steel door, it's on the upper end of 9-B.

I'm very iffy on the gate exploding, as we don't know how they did it. For it to be a scaling point we would have to assume it's just something they can do on the fly, but nothing seems to imply it is?

The grenade and vaporization scaling point seems fine.

The Gargantua scaling point to Gordon's best guns is fine, but I'm against including weapons that just upscale from the last tier (the Tau Cannon) if they aren't themselves comparable to the Gluon Gun in that they can deal with Gargantua directly. Their feats should be calculated in of themselves rather than placed here for being greater than grenades and the like.

Subsonic for everyone feels like one of the weaker arguments of this thread, maybe list it as a "possibly" for those downscaling from Gordon?

Travel speed seems fine.

I'm against the particle cannon argument, even as a possibly, without much more concrete evidence. Tau is a lot of things, it's just a letter of the Greek alphabet. There are too many alternatives to one random guy's theory on what it could mean.

As a side note, I'd like to applaud your calculation work for this CRT. Rare is the calc that is both decently made and also well explained internally as to what it is that the calc is actually tackling- far too common do I see calcs that are just hundreds of numbers alongside images with no context given. Thank you for making it easier to evaluate all of this.
 
I feel very strange assigning the zombies half of a value of a separate feat simply because the feat they did was part of said feat. Wwe have a default value for the fragmentation of a steel door, it's on the upper end of 9-B.
I do have another steel door feat calced, though there is still a problem with pixel scaling apparently. I will update that and let you know, if that's fine.
I'm very iffy on the gate exploding, as we don't know how they did it. For it to be a scaling point we would have to assume it's just something they can do on the fly, but nothing seems to imply it is?
But assuming the explosion to be caused by something else is difficult. The only possible cause is the Alien Grunts, as there is nothing in the room they exited from and assuming something explosive exists and that AGrunts can use them based on nothing doesn't really work.

But if we're focusing on the Alien Grunts themselves, they only have armor and a hivehand and their only other attack is punching. This is true even in Xen, their base of operation where they themselves are manufactured in barrels. The only real possibilities are them using their punches to explode a gate or a bee gun.

Here's also the same feat on one of respect blogs linked on Gordon's page, it's much clearer than the footage I used if that helps.
The Gargantua scaling point to Gordon's best guns is fine, but I'm against including weapons that just upscale from the last tier (the Tau Cannon) if they aren't themselves comparable to the Gluon Gun in that they can deal with Gargantua directly. Their feats should be calculated in of themselves rather than placed here for being greater than grenades and the like.
I'll try to see if the Tau Cannon can hurt the Gargantua, although that's kinda tough with no health bar or a clear reaction to damage.
Subsonic for everyone feels like one of the weaker arguments of this thread, maybe list it as a "possibly" for those downscaling from Gordon?
"Downscaling from Gordon" is the Security Guard/Barney argument, i presume?
 
But assuming the explosion to be caused by something else is difficult. The only possible cause is the Alien Grunts, as there is nothing in the room they exited from and assuming something explosive exists and that AGrunts can use them based on nothing doesn't really work.
Bombs exist in this verse, no? Unless their standard weapons are explosives (entirely possible, I've never played the game) then I'd be wholly against using the explosion to scale to their normal arsenal.

But if we're focusing on the Alien Grunts themselves, they only have armor and a hivehand and their only other attack is punching. This is true even in Xen, their base of operation where they themselves are manufactured in barrels. The only real possibilities are them using their punches to explode a gate or a bee gun.
Punches do not traditionally generate explosions. If their punches verifiably do, then that's one thing, I suppose. Otherwise I stand by my judgement- I don't think you ought to scale them to an explosion that they seemingly did not cause directly.

Here's also the same feat on one of respect blogs linked on Gordon's page, it's much clearer than the footage I used if that helps.
They appear to have a gun here? Am I missing something?

I'll try to see if the Tau Cannon can hurt the Gargantua, although that's kinda tough with no health bar or a clear reaction to damage.
The other guy says it can, if a source or something can be provided (if such a thing exists), then I have no problems scaling it.

"Downscaling from Gordon" is the Security Guard/Barney argument, i presume?
I refer to the following bit:

"Theres an argument to be made for it, so I will. Everyone should scale to Gordon in Subsonic+ reactions to some degree. Standard Zombies have fought evenly with Security Guards, even in small spaces, with a notable Security Guard being stated by Kleiner to have often competed and raced Gordon in airducts. There's also Human Grunts being able to jump Gordon before he can react (again, mentioned above), later being overpowered and thrown by Alien Grunts."
 
Back
Top