We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Known energy use can definitely fall under the "controlled/focused attacks" category.

Also what Gilver said. We also need background info if we're to prove anything against it.

And this can be another factor in scenario too.

 

[Agnaa]

Known energy use can definitely fall under the "controlled/focused attacks" category.

If you know energy used, you already have info to tier the weaker attack.

Not as in "How many joules were needed for this", but as in "How fatigued were they", "How much mana did it use", "How long did it take for the artifact to recharge", etc.

Also what Gilver said. We also need background info if we're to prove anything against it.

I don't understand what that means exactly so I can't respond to it.

 

[KLOL506]

Also what Gilver said. We also need background info if we're to prove anything against it.

I don't understand what that means exactly so I can't respond to it.

As in, context behind the feat, its intent and its importance to the story.

If this were some random creation feat that no one ever mentioned again or even paid heed to and it had no importance to the storyline, yes, your arguments would be sound.

But if the feats are game-changing, story-driving/affecting and absolute peaks of the franchise designed to show the might of said character (As with most final game bosses involving such large-scale feats), then we have a problem.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Not as in "How many joules were needed for this", but as in "How fatigued were they", "How much mana did it use", "How long did it take for the artifact to recharge", etc.

Thats still more than enough info to make a rational judgement on tier of attack.

If its too much fatigue on normal attacks relative to creative feat, it can be problematic for scaling.

If its relatively same fatigue , then they get same tier, since output would be equivalent, since there's no use in splitting hair over generally incalculable and ultimately negligible differences in energy output of attack vs creation.

 

[Agnaa]

@KLOL Oh, well I still disagree with that, but I'm happy that you're willing to budge and apply an additional qualifier to it.

@Gilver I think that's only enough info for a "possibly", at this point I don't know if we'll come to agree on that. I just wanted to point out that the argument of "Their destructive attacks only have small AoE because they're focusing it" is irrelevant to what I'm arguing, since I'm not saying that they're weak because of a small AoE.

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL Oh, well I still disagree with that, but I'm happy that you're willing to budge and apply an additional qualifier to it.

@Gilver I think that's only enough info for a "possibly", at this point I don't know if we'll come to agree on that. I just wanted to point out that the argument of "Their destructive attacks only have small AoE because they're focusing it" is irrelevant to what I'm arguing, since I'm not saying that they're weak because of a small AoE.

I should note that the qualifier really only works for feats that are like, mere one-offs that nobody even bothers to give a shit about later down the story line or if it has no real effect in the story arc, but if it serves as the basis for the lore of a franchise which leaves a profound effect on the game's story and/or it serves to be a major plot-point, then yeah, that qualifier's not gonna fly. So this really isn't a default but more of a case-by-case basis approach for this specific criteria, while the rest would serve as a good-enough generalization overall.

Again, keep in mind, the guidelines are not meant to be absolute maxims but rather guidelines for generalization, for which one being fulfilled would turn the rest of the criteria as supporting evidence.

 

[Stefano4444]

Is it bad that I like "Universal Power Source" better?

That actually sound better than UES.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

UPS.
Uninterrupted Power Supply.

 

[KLOL506]

UPS.
Uninterrupted Power Supply.

Mine doesn't work LMAO

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Mine doesn't work LMAO

That makes 2 of us.

 

[KLOL506]

That makes 2 of us.

Had it repaired and then 6 months later it immediately died on me.

 

[Axxtentacle]

bump

 

[Urshani]

i disagree with agnaa

 

[KatBoi69]

Behold, the antivote

i disagree with agnaa

 

[KLOL506]

bump

So, should we add the "exhaustion" stuff in the UES guidelines stuff, or in the Creation Feats page? I believe this would be considerably less confusing if it were in the Creation Feats page (Since that's what requires the most scrutiny ATM), and then we could link to the UES page for the rest of the guidelines.

Also, should we add the "one-time, one-off feats that don't affect the story considerably" criteria under the outlier section, while also noting that this would be a case-by-case basis approach?

 

[AKM sama]

• I asked how Mario would be treated, since we don't know that the Power Stars expend more energy empowering characters than they do creating things.
• You responded that Mario and co. would scale since they consistently hold their own against empowered bosses.

As far as Mario is concerned, I still had to do revisions that I had planned, but I got bored and left it for a while. I don't think stuff like Power Stars qualify for UES at all. There is so much discrepancy between creation and the level of empowerment a character receives. I should probably pick up on the Mario revisions.

 

[KLOL506]

As far as Mario is concerned, I still had to do revisions that I had planned, but I got bored and left it for a while. I don't think stuff like Power Stars qualify for UES at all. There is so much discrepancy between creation and the level of empowerment a character receives. I should probably pick up on the Mario revisions.

Like I said, I know nothing about Mario at all and it'd require its own verse-specific CRT, which is why I retracted all my statements about it later on.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ok so no idea if this question has already been asked (5 pages is a lot to go through), but what about series where they don't go into any detail at all about their UES.

Using Zelda as an example, Ganondorf is Island level+ via creating a storm via his magic and then having his normal magic attacks scaling to the storm. Would we need more information about that for him to qualify having his magic attacks scaling to the storm besides him using magic for both?

I STG if this results in another large scale Zelda revision

 

[KLOL506]

Ok so no idea if this question has already been asked (5 pages is a lot to go through), but what about series where they don't go into any detail at all about their UES.

Using Zelda as an example, Ganondorf is Island level+ via creating a storm via his magic and then having his normal magic attacks scaling to the storm. Would we need more information about that for him to qaulify?

I STG if this results in another large scale Zelda revision

Assuming his storm feat is done with little effort and his attacks expend an equal amount or more effort, and he's shown to be able to amplify his attacks with said magic (Like focus it into his body parts or something) (And also assuming it also follows the guidelines in the draft after they've been modified to what I've had to say about it, check my comment in page 2, like singular energy source and it being a common one for the entire verse and whatnot), I'd say it scales.

But uh, there's a CRT trying to nuke cloud feats as a whole.

 

[KatBoi69]

As far as Mario is concerned, I still had to do revisions that I had planned, but I got bored and left it for a while. I don't think stuff like Power Stars qualify for UES at all. There is so much discrepancy between creation and the level of empowerment a character receives. I should probably pick up on the Mario revisions.

I'd agree. Mario wouldn't get UES under this proposal either imo.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Assuming his storm feat is done with little effort and his attacks expend an equal amount or more effort, and he's shown to be able to amplify his attacks with said magic (Like focus it into his body parts or something), I'd say it scales.

So in one game he can channel the same energy he uses for his magical attacks into his fist to destroy the floor of his chamber so that's neat. Although the level of effort he puts into the storm is unknown, he's off screen when he does it, although the game doesn't treat it as something super difficult for him to do so there's that I guess.

But uh, there's a CRT trying to nuke cloud feats as a whole.

God damn it

 

[KatBoi69]

Ok so no idea if this question has already been asked (5 pages is a lot to go through), but what about series where they don't go into any detail at all about their UES.

Using Zelda as an example, Ganondorf is Island level+ via creating a storm via his magic and then having his normal magic attacks scaling to the storm. Would we need more information about that for him to qualify having his magic attacks scaling to the storm besides him using magic for both?

I STG if this results in another large scale Zelda revision

I'm no Zelda expert, but Ganon may not qualify under the "loss of power" point, as I don't think there's even evidence to say one way or another what happens if he loses his powers (I could be completely wrong. I am no Zelda expert).

 

[KLOL506]

So in one game he can channel the same energy he uses for his magical attacks into his fist to destroy the floor of his chamber so that's neat. Although the level of effort he puts into the storm is unknown, he's off screen when he does it, although the game doesn't treat it as something super difficult for him to do so there's that I guess.

If the game shows enough context that the storm feat was quite casual for him, yeah, sure, go for it.

Though "loss of power" argument might pose a problem, assuming Ganon can replicate the same feats without magic. But if he can't and he's shown to be weaker without magic, yeah why not.

God damn it

I know, I know.

 

[Urshani]

But uh, there's a CRT trying to nuke cloud feats as a whole.

not possible

Clouds have mass

 

[KLOL506]

not possible

Clouds have mass

More so the CAPE variant. Unsure about KE. But there be some weird cloud KE movement stuff. Like that super-weird Abigail cloud KE feat done by sheer power in the DMC anime that was super ******* hard to calc which we rejected anyway because his power apparently rivals that of Mundus.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut with the new mass table being accepted I guess we could swap in CAPE with a mass-based creation tier.

 

[Urshani]

More so the CAPE variant. Unsure about KE. But there be some weird cloud KE movement stuff. Like that super-weird Abigail cloud KE feat done by sheer power in the DMC anime that was super ******* hard to calc which we rejected anyway because his power apparently rivals that of Mundus.

What is CAPE

 

[KLOL506]

What is CAPE

Convective Available Potential Energy

But I'll not delve into the matter anymore since that would be derailing, it has its own CRT so it's best kept at that.

There's always the mass table y'all can resort to if CAPE gets whacked, but there's no replacement nor rejection for something as hard-hitting KE. PERIOD. I'll keep it at that for this thread.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm no Zelda expert, but Ganon may not qualify under the "loss of power" point, as I don't think there's even evidence to say one way or another what happens if he loses his powers (I could be completely wrong. I am no Zelda expert).

Assuming Ganon can replicate the same storm feat without his magic at play, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still disagree with AKM regarding Mario, some people actually have found more sources that say otherwise such as those physically amped by Grand Stars overusing the power to the point of risking the death of the Grand Star.

And I believe Dino might have more to add. Gyro also has brought up points regarding the need for multiple Power stars to open magically enhanced gateways.

 

[KLOL506]

I still disagree with AKM regarding Mario, some people actually have found more sources that say otherwise such as those physically amped by Grand Stars overusing the power to the point of risking the death of the Grand Star.

And I believe Dino might have more to add.

I'd suggest you make it another CRT once this thread passes. Since the "exhaustion" argument isn't the end-all, be-all for scaling Creation Feats to physicals, there's still the other guidelines to consider.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Assuming Ganon can replicate the same storm feat without his magic at play, yes.

Yyyeeahh.

Without magic his best feats are not even reaching tier 8. He can knock around and harm various Links who have Island level+ durability if that counts, but their durability requires Ganons magical attacks to meet the qualifications to scale to his storm soooo...

God please between this and potential CAPE changes I do not want to go through another revision we just had one that lasted for 3 months

 

[KLOL506]

Yyyeeahh.

Without magic his best feats are not even reaching tier 8. He can knock around and harm various Links who have Island level+ durability if that counts, but their durability requires Ganons magical attacks to meet the qualifications to scale to his storm soooo...

Ah. Then it should be fine to scale. The rest would be covered by powerscaling (You know, Link being able to trade blows with those that can harm him and then Link hitting Ganon with his punches). If there is also evidence that Ganon becomes extremely weakened due to loss of his magic where it causes him pain and exhaustion, it would solidify the UES scaling even further.

God please between this and potential CAPE changes I do not want to go through another revision we just had one that lasted for 3 months

Not my fault the staff and I got burnt out over the Cooling and Clouds thread, but once again, derailing

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ah. Then it should be fine to scale. The rest would be covered by powerscaling (You know, Link being able to trade blows with those that can harm him and then Link hitting Ganon with his punches). If there is also evidence that Ganon becomes extremely weakened due to loss of his magic where it causes him pain and exhaustion, it would solidify the UES scaling even further.

Well there's no instance of Ganon ever losing any of his magic, but it's nice to hear it should be fine to scale.

 

[KatBoi69]

Assuming Ganon can replicate the same storm feat without his magic at play, yes.

Not to derail, but I was more questioning if Ganon's powers even meet the proposed UES standards.

 

[KLOL506]

Not to derail, but I was more questioning if Ganon's powers even meet the proposed UES standards.

There's that too, but I think I already mentioned the other required guidelines to be at play when I told DDM to discuss the Mario stuff in a separate CRT, no?

 

[KatBoi69]

There's that too, but I think I already mentioned the other required guidelines to be at play when I told DDM to discuss the Mario stuff in a separate CRT, no?

It is possible. Unfortunately, following every aspect of this 5 page discussion is beyond me and i've only been focusing on a few key points.

This does raise an important question about how to use the guidelines. Is the UES qualifying list meant to be "must meet all of these requirements, and have none of the disqualifying characteristics," or does the ES just need a majority of the qualifying characteristics?

I know they're only meant to be guidelines, but we should have some idea of, at what point, the ES starts to look like a UES, or at what point we start doubting a UES claim.

 

[KLOL506]

It is possible. Unfortunately, following every aspect of this 5 page discussion is beyond me and i've only been focusing on a few key points.

This does raise an important question about how to use the guidelines. Is the UES qualifying list meant to be "must meet all of these requirements, and have none of the disqualifying characteristics," or does the ES just need a majority of the qualifying characteristics?

I know they're only meant to be guidelines, but we should have some idea of, at what point, the ES starts to look like a UES, or at what point we start doubting a UES claim.

At the very least it needs to qualify for one of the qualities, and as I already mentioned, some of those criteria just shouldn't be a requirement to begin with since some of them defeat the purpose of an UES existing, and thus would need further modification to be flexible while at the same time judge a validity of a UES being there to begin with.

 

[KatBoi69]

At the very least it needs to qualify for one of the qualities, and as I already mentioned, some of those criteria just shouldn't be a requirement to begin with since some of them defeat the purpose of an UES existing, and thus would need further modification to be flexible while at the same time judge a validity of a UES being there to begin with.

Ok. I might have concerns, when we see the full list, that it should need to be >50% or something, but it will depend on what the criteria end up being.

 

[KLOL506]

Ok. I might have concerns, when we see the full list, that it should need to be >50% or something, but it will depend on what the criteria end up being.

At least one to two of the current criteria on the draft according to me, three with regards to creation feats where we need a wee bit more scrutiny (The exhaustion argument thing and the lore importance thing).

Of course, some guidelines may not fully apply or may apply only in parts depending on how the UES is shown to function.

Lore importance however, I think, is an absolute must, it must be the building blocks of the UES in the verse. Like for example, how chakra and its creation affected the history of humanity in Naruto, or the Force, things like that. Lore importance should be prioritized before anything else. That is really the only part of the criteria that I think must be mandated.

 

[KatBoi69]

At least one to two of the current criteria on the draft according to me, three with regards to creation feats where we need a wee bit more scrutiny (The exhaustion argument thing and the lore importance thing).

Of course, some guidelines may not fully apply or may apply only in parts depending on how the UES is shown to function.

Lore importance however, I think, is an absolute must, it must be the building blocks of the UES in the verse. Like for example, how chakra and its creation affected the history of humanity in Naruto, something like that. Lore importance should be prioritized before anything else.

Is the Google doc up to date?