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We know now, without a doubt, Void Shiki is... a fraud!

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Alright. We’re going to keep this simple and easy to understand. Each section of this will be separated by points, and our responses to the reason why she scales where she scales in the first place.
Thanks to all 8 members of the Void Execution Squad.

“She is the root/ literally any other statement she’s made in KNK about herself.”

Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.
In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).
This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.

Saber Shiki FGO Profile.
“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”

It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.

Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.

—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.
けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ

She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.
彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。

誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。

She’s insecure, and uncertain about the claim she’s made.

Next.

We do know of her connection to the root, but that connection doesn’t inherently give you superior abilities to anyone else.

Reaching or being connected to the root doesn’t automatically grant the ability to alter reality. We know of one character who is confirmed to become part of the root, circulating within it between manifestations, in the form of Zepia.



This is very explicit.

One of the first things we learn about TATARI is:

“Yes. Tatari—No, ‘The Night of Wallachia’ does not have a lair. In the first place, it is something that does not even exist in this world.”

Additionally, there are Divine Spirits with a high degree of connection to the root. This connection persists even after the Age of Gods (AOG), though the link the mages had to them has faded.

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 9
“Magecraft today is different from magecraft in the Age of the Gods. That I can understand, at least somewhat. Because mages from the Age of the Gods are very close to the Root, they don't need to chase after it. I'm not sure why, but I can understand that as well. But what does all of this have to do with Heartless?"

"Good....First, the mages of the Age of the Gods do not aim for the Root because they don't have to. This is because the Root is quite close to them."

I had heard this explanation many times before. Modern mages chased after the Root, but ancient mages did not.

"Faker is an example."

By now, we were already familiar with her. She was a Servant who had been summoned from many millennia ago.

"The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas (TN: Alternatively, spells). It is only a trick to briefly fool the world. Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits- no, the gods themselves." My mentor said, confirming the difference between mages in modern times and in the Age of the Gods, which had only been hinted at until now.

"The revival of the Age of the Gods would be like a miracle to generations of mages. Reaching the Root would no longer be an unattainable dream. This new form of mystery would be far more efficient."

Modern magecraft began when the Age of the Gods ended. The goal of magecraft
became attempting to return to the past. Over two thousand years, mages had spent enough talent and resources to make someone pass out from astonishment, all so they could reach the Root, the shining ideal in the distance.

A mage from the Age of the Gods must find this act incredibly foolish. Reines had told me that not even a monster like Touko Aozaki stood a chance against Faker.

"Interesting." McDonell said, nodding twice and clasping together his hands. "A god that exists only for mages... if he succeeds in creating it, we will not have to seek the Root anymore. Isn't that a wonderful proposition?"

AOG mages are said to be “quite close” to the root by linking themselves to a Divine Spirit. “Quite” can mean to the utmost extent or extremely close, implying a high degree of connection. “Adventures of El-Melloi” states that this connection is direct, without intervening factors that would diminish it. Divine Spirits themselves have an even greater connection, as they are the medium through which AOG mages connect to the root. The connection was so strong that AOG mages saw trying to reach the root as pointless. Yet, Divine Spirits like Euryale or Stheno are not claimed to have god-like power that can surpass the rest of the verse, as no one would take you seriously.
Void’s statements about her capabilities are based on the condition of her being the root and being able to use all of its powers, which is a low-probability claim proven false by her antifeats.

Hell, what you can do with that connection is limited by your scale as a being. Void, being a human, would be lesser in scale than a divine spirit:

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.

There were limits to her power, of course. The bounds of her vision were limited by her scale as a Divine Spirit, and Faker was only a newborn god. She could only calculate points that she had a connection to.

Now, being an emptiness/void doesn’t make you higher scale either.

Here’s an example from the newest adventures volume.

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II | Volume 8
For him as well, it must have been a nerve-racking task. Watching him, I asked, "Master, that thing..."

"Originally, Ergo was chosen as the one to consume the three gods precisely because, as a direct descendant of the Great King of Conquerors, he was born without any striking traits—he was an empty vessel (nothingness)."

I had heard that story before, in the Great Library of Alexandria undersea.

"But if controlling those gods is the goal, then what's needed is the opposite."

"The opposite of an empty vessel?"

"Memory and personality. When facing gods, what is always required of a person is strong willpower."

I understand the logic. Even when using magecraft, it ultimately depends on the person's character. Mysteries are born where there is strong willpower. And what creates that willpower is surely memory and personality.

"But then—"

"Of course, the saturation of memories progresses even further. It’s like pouring more water into a cup that has long since been full. Ergo must have known this. That's why he hadn't engaged in this kind of memory induction until now, waiting for a solution to the memory saturation."

This implies:
1. a person who is emptiness would have trouble with divine spirits
2. They are inherently less capable of wielding mysteries, as that requires personality and willpower.

Also, angra is literal emptiness/ a void. Yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants.



- Then, here is him using his powers to let Bazett pass through the root to revive.




He says that everything
(1) uses zero (the root) as an empty space to be born out of.
However, he doesn’t have the concept of 1. He managed to be born from zero, and stay as zero. Identical to Void Shiki. He even says that the Root is him as well.
But as anyone who’s read through hollow knows, he’s weak. INCREDIBLY weak.

Now, the antifeats.

Source: | 28:50 mark.
Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.



All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God, which is an allegory of the thought that she’s nigh-omnipotent. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive. She even denies the notion of being anything close to a god, as she’s cute compared to that.

This is an official drama CD written by Nasu himself.

Next ---

8457842-unknown-30.png

Void states that the combined forces of her and Chaldea would stand no chance against a monster of Gaia, such as Primate Murder.

"But she’s limited by a servant container!!"

(Nasu Interview, 2016)
Shiki is a unique case. She's in a liminal state—her body had burned, but not completely. She exists in a dream, hovering just before death. The Ogawa Apartments we see are part of this dream. During the event, Shiki comments on her condition, saying things like, "This is an awful nightmare," or "I can't wake up, so come with me." If she wakes up, she would die along with that time period. However, if she stays in the dream, she can avoid the destruction of humanity and return to her original world.

This information isn't particularly helpful here. Whether Shiki dies due to the human incineration threat (which is equivalent to FGO Ama, but weaker than CCC Ama), loses to Primate Murder, or both—it’s inevitable. The Ryougis of the KnK event are the originals trying to escape death. They haven't died and thus aren't servants in the lore, only in gameplay. Also, the independent manifestation skill contradicts her being a servant. This skill allows beings to summon themselves without a container. This skill is typically limited to Beasts (who are not servants) but is also seen in Merlin and Shiki. Merlin had the potential to become a Beast, so his case is explainable. Shiki, on the other hand, remains uncertain. Merlin is not a servant but uses independent manifestation to appear as one, confirming she’s not a servant based on this skill.

"But Void is said to be a mark of an omnipotent wish granter!"
This statement is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to the Holy Grail. Here's why:

"—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours."

This implies:

1. There are wishes she cannot grant. "Most" can refer to as little as 51%, just over half.
2. Her abilities are limited to human-scale wishes; wishes of a higher scale are beyond her.

This is corroborated by an Archetype's line about the Grail in FGO:

"The Holy Grail, the golden chalice. I heard it was a valuable thing, but it's quite small. Is that enough to grant wishes by human standards? I thought it'd surely be like a crater or something similar. …No, I was talking about my own standards."

This aligns with statements where Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies Archetype Earth's (Arcueid's) power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.
 
I found a scan that could help you here




"The ancient civilization revolved around cycles, while the modern civilization revolves around consumption. The ancient era coexisted with truth, while the modern era seeks to understand the truth. In the ancient era, where the world operated on the principles of cycles, mages did not need to reach the Root. Because it was as if they were obtaining magical energy from it directly. At the same time, because it felt so familiar, the very idea of reaching the Root didn't occur to them."

神代の文明は循環、現代の文明は消費。神代は真理と共にあり、現代は真理を識ろうとする。循環の理で世界が回っていた神代において、魔術師は根源に到達する必要がない。だって根源から魔力を得ているようなものだから。同時に、あまりに身近に感じられるため、根源にいたろうという考え自体思いつかない。
 
I swear, it's as if people just look at the discussion rule, and say "well, who gives a ****, it's Nasuverse," and proceed to just do the exact opposite of the discussion rule. This shit should be closed. Not only is it just reeking ignorance and breaking the discussion rule, it's also just makes me think Marshadow wrote this😂 The same debunked points again and again and again. Jesus 🙆‍♂️
 
Last edited:
Alright. We’re going to keep this simple and easy to understand. Each section of this will be separated by points, and our responses to the reason why she scales where she scales in the first place.
Thanks to all 8 members of the Void Execution Squad.

“She is the root/ literally any other statement she’s made in KNK about herself.”

Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.
In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).
This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.

Saber Shiki FGO Profile.
“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”

It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.

Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.

—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.
けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ

She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.
彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。

誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。

She’s insecure, and uncertain about the claim she’s made.

Next.

We do know of her connection to the root, but that connection doesn’t inherently give you superior abilities to anyone else.

Reaching or being connected to the root doesn’t automatically grant the ability to alter reality. We know of one character who is confirmed to become part of the root, circulating within it between manifestations, in the form of Zepia.



This is very explicit.

One of the first things we learn about TATARI is:

“Yes. Tatari—No, ‘The Night of Wallachia’ does not have a lair. In the first place, it is something that does not even exist in this world.”

Additionally, there are Divine Spirits with a high degree of connection to the root. This connection persists even after the Age of Gods (AOG), though the link the mages had to them has faded.

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 9
“Magecraft today is different from magecraft in the Age of the Gods. That I can understand, at least somewhat. Because mages from the Age of the Gods are very close to the Root, they don't need to chase after it. I'm not sure why, but I can understand that as well. But what does all of this have to do with Heartless?"

"Good....First, the mages of the Age of the Gods do not aim for the Root because they don't have to. This is because the Root is quite close to them."

I had heard this explanation many times before. Modern mages chased after the Root, but ancient mages did not.

"Faker is an example."

By now, we were already familiar with her. She was a Servant who had been summoned from many millennia ago.

"The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas (TN: Alternatively, spells). It is only a trick to briefly fool the world. Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits- no, the gods themselves." My mentor said, confirming the difference between mages in modern times and in the Age of the Gods, which had only been hinted at until now.

"The revival of the Age of the Gods would be like a miracle to generations of mages. Reaching the Root would no longer be an unattainable dream. This new form of mystery would be far more efficient."

Modern magecraft began when the Age of the Gods ended. The goal of magecraft
became attempting to return to the past. Over two thousand years, mages had spent enough talent and resources to make someone pass out from astonishment, all so they could reach the Root, the shining ideal in the distance.

A mage from the Age of the Gods must find this act incredibly foolish. Reines had told me that not even a monster like Touko Aozaki stood a chance against Faker.

"Interesting." McDonell said, nodding twice and clasping together his hands. "A god that exists only for mages... if he succeeds in creating it, we will not have to seek the Root anymore. Isn't that a wonderful proposition?"

AOG mages are said to be “quite close” to the root by linking themselves to a Divine Spirit. “Quite” can mean to the utmost extent or extremely close, implying a high degree of connection. “Adventures of El-Melloi” states that this connection is direct, without intervening factors that would diminish it. Divine Spirits themselves have an even greater connection, as they are the medium through which AOG mages connect to the root. The connection was so strong that AOG mages saw trying to reach the root as pointless. Yet, Divine Spirits like Euryale or Stheno are not claimed to have god-like power that can surpass the rest of the verse, as no one would take you seriously.
Void’s statements about her capabilities are based on the condition of her being the root and being able to use all of its powers, which is a low-probability claim proven false by her antifeats.

Hell, what you can do with that connection is limited by your scale as a being. Void, being a human, would be lesser in scale than a divine spirit:

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.

There were limits to her power, of course. The bounds of her vision were limited by her scale as a Divine Spirit, and Faker was only a newborn god. She could only calculate points that she had a connection to.

Now, being an emptiness/void doesn’t make you higher scale either.

Here’s an example from the newest adventures volume.

The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II | Volume 8
For him as well, it must have been a nerve-racking task. Watching him, I asked, "Master, that thing..."

"Originally, Ergo was chosen as the one to consume the three gods precisely because, as a direct descendant of the Great King of Conquerors, he was born without any striking traits—he was an empty vessel (nothingness)."

I had heard that story before, in the Great Library of Alexandria undersea.

"But if controlling those gods is the goal, then what's needed is the opposite."

"The opposite of an empty vessel?"

"Memory and personality. When facing gods, what is always required of a person is strong willpower."

I understand the logic. Even when using magecraft, it ultimately depends on the person's character. Mysteries are born where there is strong willpower. And what creates that willpower is surely memory and personality.

"But then—"

"Of course, the saturation of memories progresses even further. It’s like pouring more water into a cup that has long since been full. Ergo must have known this. That's why he hadn't engaged in this kind of memory induction until now, waiting for a solution to the memory saturation."

This implies:
1. a person who is emptiness would have trouble with divine spirits
2. They are inherently less capable of wielding mysteries, as that requires personality and willpower.

Also, angra is literal emptiness/ a void. Yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants.



- Then, here is him using his powers to let Bazett pass through the root to revive.




He says that everything
(1) uses zero (the root) as an empty space to be born out of.
However, he doesn’t have the concept of 1. He managed to be born from zero, and stay as zero. Identical to Void Shiki. He even says that the Root is him as well.
But as anyone who’s read through hollow knows, he’s weak. INCREDIBLY weak.

Now, the antifeats.

Source: | 28:50 mark.
Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.


All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God, which is an allegory of the thought that she’s nigh-omnipotent. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive. She even denies the notion of being anything close to a god, as she’s cute compared to that.

This is an official drama CD written by Nasu himself.

Next ---

8457842-unknown-30.png


Void states that the combined forces of her and Chaldea would stand no chance against a monster of Gaia, such as Primate Murder.

"But she’s limited by a servant container!!"

(Nasu Interview, 2016)
Shiki is a unique case. She's in a liminal state—her body had burned, but not completely. She exists in a dream, hovering just before death. The Ogawa Apartments we see are part of this dream. During the event, Shiki comments on her condition, saying things like, "This is an awful nightmare," or "I can't wake up, so come with me." If she wakes up, she would die along with that time period. However, if she stays in the dream, she can avoid the destruction of humanity and return to her original world.

This information isn't particularly helpful here. Whether Shiki dies due to the human incineration threat (which is equivalent to FGO Ama, but weaker than CCC Ama), loses to Primate Murder, or both—it’s inevitable. The Ryougis of the KnK event are the originals trying to escape death. They haven't died and thus aren't servants in the lore, only in gameplay. Also, the independent manifestation skill contradicts her being a servant. This skill allows beings to summon themselves without a container. This skill is typically limited to Beasts (who are not servants) but is also seen in Merlin and Shiki. Merlin had the potential to become a Beast, so his case is explainable. Shiki, on the other hand, remains uncertain. Merlin is not a servant but uses independent manifestation to appear as one, confirming she’s not a servant based on this skill.

"But Void is said to be a mark of an omnipotent wish granter!"
This statement is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to the Holy Grail. Here's why:

"—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours."

This implies:

1. There are wishes she cannot grant. "Most" can refer to as little as 51%, just over half.
2. Her abilities are limited to human-scale wishes; wishes of a higher scale are beyond her.

This is corroborated by an Archetype's line about the Grail in FGO:

"The Holy Grail, the golden chalice. I heard it was a valuable thing, but it's quite small. Is that enough to grant wishes by human standards? I thought it'd surely be like a crater or something similar. …No, I was talking about my own standards."

This aligns with statements where Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies Archetype Earth's (Arcueid's) power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.
 
I swear, it's as if people just look at the discussion rule, and say "well, who gives a ****, it's Nasuverse," and proceed to just do the exact opposite of the discussion rule. This shit should be closed. Not only is it just reeking ignorance and breaking the discussion rule, it's also just makes me think Marshadow wrote this😂 The same debunked points again and again and again. Jesus 🙆‍♂️
If there is a discussion rule against this and no new arguments are shown, then I guess you can call a mod to close this.
 
well can you or him paste the debunks to each of the points brought up here? or link the thread where that happened

me and @Synnian can’t really reply to counter arguments that don’t exist, if you get the idea
  • Do not attempt to downgrade the Tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.
 
  • Do not attempt to downgrade the Tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.
im looking at the linked downgrade threads, they only show arguments and stuff about the moon cell, this is entirely different territory.
 
Marsh's fanclub wrote this this should be closed seriously it's the same crap that hyperzero debunked and which ignores the discussion rule. Void is nigh omnipotent end of discussion.
 
Marsh's fanclub wrote this this should be closed seriously it's the same crap that hyperzero debunked and which ignores the discussion rule. Void is nigh omnipotent end of discussion.
like I asked tdjwo and robo,

well can you or him paste the debunks to each of the points brought up here? or link the thread where that happened

me and @Synnian can’t really reply to counter arguments that don’t exist, if you get the idea
 
Doesn't matter this "thread" is still nonsense that's been crushed and destroyed a million times over now marsh should do a favor and stop this persistence.
i can’t really confirm or deny your word,as idk where it’s been “crushed or destroyed”

but i can add you to the gc where this was was discussed, my discord user is f.a.t.e_
 
i can’t really confirm or deny your word,as idk where it’s been “crushed or destroyed”

but i can add you to the gc where this was was discussed, my discord user is f.a.t.e_
Hyper crushed this nonsense indirectly in his debate with that incoherent guy syn and no thanks I don't go in to gc's with fate fans.
 
i can’t really confirm or deny your word,as idk where it’s been “crushed or destroyed”

but i can add you to the gc where this was was discussed, my discord user is f.a.t.e_
I’ve seen this thread be posted before. I think someone’s regurgitating the same argument from somewhere else and the fact that op only has 15 messages and no pfp despite trying to downgrade such a strong character seems to be the case
 
The entirety of this thread is obliterated by the simple fact that none of the character mentioned have the Origin of Emptiness, which is why Ryougi's connection is the highest you can possibly have in-verse. This is because her very Origin is shaped after the One itself, acting as its avatar and drawing the maximum possible power from it without being outright omnipotent. She already stated she can do almost anything, destroy and rewrite Creation, alter the laws of physics, etc.

Technically, literally everyone is connected to the Root. Since everything is sourced from it. What actually matters is the extent and strength of that connection. This is why none of the comparisons you children bring up are valid.

Imagine using the butchered rewritten version of Ryougi in GO that is meant for the modern canon and is entirely contradicting to the original story. Also ignoring this version of "Ryougi" is in a Servant container that severely restricts her abilities, making her slower and less effective with her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception compared to her normal self for arbitrary reasons. In contrast, the original Ryougi killed Archetype Earth and blinked an infinite dimension. Her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is also superior to Tohno’s. In Dawn, Tohno’s abilities allowed him to destroy a self-contained universe that was approaching True Chaos, merging abstract and material aspects, and which even Arcueid admitted she could not destroy. Aoko using the Fifth Magic soloed the sentient will of the cosmos. Imagine thinking fodder ass Primate Murder is doing anything to Ryougi, lol.

Imagine using a parody work like All Around Type Moon. The same work where Arcueid states that Saber is somehow more pratical than her. I don't think we are going to pretend that Saber is above Arcueid now, do we? Double standards at its finest kek.

The narrative falls apart entirely if Void wasn't nigh-omnipotent, as Araya's entire plan was using her powers to blink creation and record humanity. But of course, none of you care about the story in truth. Just blind fanboyism.
You guys genuinely need to touch grass, given how deranged and obsessed you are acting over a fictional character. No matter how many of you gather, you are infinitely far away from achieving any meaningful result against the factual reality that Ryougi is above Arcueid and the strongest Type Moon character. You did not even read KnK, so Idk what you are trying to do here. You guys are actually the reason TM has gone to shit in this wiki. Granted, it was already a mess, but now the verse is outright dead because of your blatant insanity. But keep going, don't care. Just addressed your broken takes one time as an example of your lack of knowledge.

Inb4 the lock.
 
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I’ve seen this thread be posted before. I think someone’s regurgitating the same argument from somewhere else and the fact that op only has 15 messages and no pfp despite trying to downgrade such a strong character seems to be the case
ok, I checked and there does seem to be a similar thread, but that one got closed on the request of the op,and there are arguments that exist here that don’t there
 
this is almost the same exact thread

 
The entirety of this thread is obliterated by the simple fact that none of the character mentioned have the Origin of Emptiness, which is why Ryougi's connection is the highest you can possibly have in-verse. This is because her very Origin is shaped after the One itself, acting as its avatar and drawing the maximum possible power from it without being outright omnipotent. She already stated she can do almost anything, destroy and rewrite Creation, alter the laws of physics, etc.

Technically, literally everyone is connected to the Root. Since everything is sourced from it. What actually matters is the extent and strength of that connection. This is why none of the comparisons you children bring up are valid.

Imagine using the butchered rewritten version of Ryougi in GO that is meant for the modern canon and is entirely contradicting to the original story. Also ignoring this version of "Ryougi" is in a Servant container that severely restricts her abilities, making her slower and less effective with her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception compared to her normal self for arbitrary reasons. In contrast, the original Ryougi killed Archetype Earth and blinked an infinite dimension. Her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is also superior to Tohno’s. In Dawn, Tohno’s abilities allowed him to destroy a self-contained universe that was approaching True Chaos, merging abstract and material aspects, and which even Arcueid admitted she could not destroy. Aoko using the Fifth Magic soloed the sentient will of the cosmos. Imagine thinking fodder ass Primate Murder is doing anything to Ryougi, lol.

Imagine using a parody work like All Around Type Moon. The same work where Arcueid states that Saber is somehow more pratical than her. I don't think we are going to pretend that Saber is above Arcueid now, do we? Double standards at its finest kek.

The narrative falls apart entirely if Void wasn't nigh-omnipotent, as Araya's entire plan was using her powers to blink creation and record humanity. But of course, none of you care about the story in truth. Just blind fanboyism.
You guys genuinely need to touch grass, given how deranged and obsessed you are acting over a fictional character. No matter how many of you gather, you are infinitely far away from achieving any meaningful result against the factual reality that Ryougi is above Arcueid and the strongest Type Moon character. You did not even read KnK, so Idk what you are trying to do here. You guys are actually the reason TM has gone to shit in this wiki. Granted, it was already a mess, but now the verse is outright dead because of your blatant insanity. But keep going, don't care. Just addressed your broken takes one time as an example of your lack of knowledge.

Inb4 the lock.
I would like to state that I completely agree with you. My thoughts are all the same as yours.
 
The entirety of this thread is obliterated by the simple fact that none of the character mentioned have the Origin of Emptiness, which is why Ryougi's connection is the highest you can possibly have in-verse. This is because her very Origin is shaped after the One itself, acting as its avatar and drawing the maximum possible power from it without being outright omnipotent. She already stated she can do almost anything, destroy and rewrite Creation, alter the laws of physics, etc.

Technically, literally everyone is connected to the Root. Since everything is sourced from it. What actually matters is the extent and strength of that connection. This is why none of the comparisons you children bring up are valid.

Imagine using the butchered rewritten version of Ryougi in GO that is meant for the modern canon and is entirely contradicting to the original story. Also ignoring this version of "Ryougi" is in a Servant container that severely restricts her abilities, making her slower and less effective with her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception compared to her normal self for arbitrary reasons. In contrast, the original Ryougi killed Archetype Earth and blinked an infinite dimension. Her Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is also superior to Tohno’s. In Dawn, Tohno’s abilities allowed him to destroy a self-contained universe that was approaching True Chaos, merging abstract and material aspects, and which even Arcueid admitted she could not destroy. Aoko using the Fifth Magic soloed the sentient will of the cosmos. Imagine thinking fodder ass Primate Murder is doing anything to Ryougi, lol.

Imagine using a parody work like All Around Type Moon. The same work where Arcueid states that Saber is somehow more pratical than her. I don't think we are going to pretend that Saber is above Arcueid now, do we? Double standards at its finest kek.

You guys genuinely need to touch grass, given how deranged and obsessed you are acting over a fictional character. No matter how many of you gather, you are infinitely far away from achieving any meaningful result against the factual reality that Ryougi is above Arcueid and the strongest Type Moon character. You did not even read KnK, so Idk what you are trying to do here. You guys are actually the reason TM has gone to shit in this wiki. Granted, it was already a mess, but now the verse is outright dead because of your blatant insanity. But keep going, don't care. Just addressed your broken takes one time as an example of your lack of knowledge.

Inb4 the lock.
“none of the character mentioned have the Origin of Emptiness”

how do you know this? especially when voids status as an empty vessel is because of her origin?

her origin just gives her these things from birth, it doesn’t mean they’re automatically more superior than anyone else’s.

divine spirits have such a strong connection to the root, the head of the democratic faction of the clock tower says if heartless succeeds in creating one, mages wouldn’t need to go search for the root anymore
This leads to the conclusion that if mages had a divine spirit to link through, they could gain everything they wanted from it.

"The ancient civilization revolved around cycles, while the modern civilization revolves around consumption. The ancient era coexisted with truth, while the modern era seeks to understand the truth. In the ancient era, where the world operated on the principles of cycles, mages did not need to reach the Root. Because it was as if they were obtaining magical energy from it directly. At the same time, because it felt so familiar, the very idea of reaching the Root didn't occur to them."

神代の文明は循環、現代の文明は消費。神代は真理と共にあり、現代は真理を識ろうとする。循環の理で世界が回っていた神代において、魔術師は根源に到達する必要がない。だって根源から魔力を得ているようなものだから。同時に、あまりに身近に感じられるため、根源にいたろうという考え自体思いつかない。

AOG mages are said to coexist with truth (The Root),while modern mages chase that same truth.

Also
—Ordinarily a creature whose being is poured out straight from " " simply dies in its mother's womb. That was my case. But the Ryougi clan possessed a technique for keeping such a thing alive.

this lines with the scans syn sent about angra in the op. Usually,everything flows out of 0 (the root) to become something (1).
but angra flowed out directly without the concept of 1 existing within him. identical circumstances.

also, asagami and kirie fujou have the same origin as shiki, this is stated by Araya himself. yet they’re not nigh omnipotent gods.

“She already stated she can do almost anything”
addressed by the OP.


“Imagine using the butchered rewritten version of Ryougi in GO that is meant for the modern canon”
there is one canon, and VSBW seemingly treats everything as such. if you want to apply your proposed canon changes, make a CRT for it.

the CD is written by nasu, and nothing implies that scene is parody.

rest of the stuff was handled by syn in the general discussion thing

this is almost the same exact thread

yea I checked and that thread never got rejected by a staff. it’s honestly still fair game, unless I misunderstood a rule or something
 
lol
but seriously, we’re not his fanclub, we just collaborated together for this.
Collaborating with Marshadow😂😭🤓
all the opposition to this is a discussion rule that seems to be talking about an entirely different topic, and “this got debunked”,and refusing to post the debunks in question
Bro, anything relating to tier 1 downgrade is banned. There has been so many Void Shiki bla bla bla in the past. Marshadow was one of the nuisance we had to deal with regarding this. And he got banned for one of the multiple shit he did. Nobody is gonna address this cuz it's been addressed multiple times. And I'm not gonna be arsed to search the debunk up.
 
Bro, anything relating to tier 1 downgrade is banned. There has been so many Void Shiki bla bla bla in the past. Marshadow was one of the nuisance we had to deal with regarding this. And he got banned for one of the multiple shit he did. Nobody is gonna address this cuz it's been addressed multiple times. And I'm not gonna be arsed to search the debunk up.
the threads linked in the rule only mention fate extra stuff though. if it covers an entirely different topic,wouldn’t it be exempt?

“nobody will debunk this because it’s already been debunk” doesn’t really make sense though, you can just paste the debunk or whatever
 
When creating content revisions, it is essential to ensure that the topic has not been addressed previously. Rejected content revisions cannot be resubmitted within a short period of time (typically defined as within 3 to 4 months), except in cases where a staff member has a good reason to do so
 
the threads linked in the rule only mention fate extra stuff though. if it covers an entirely different topic,wouldn’t it be exempt?

“nobody will debunk this because it’s already been debunk” doesn’t really make sense though, you can just paste the debunk or whatever
Look at the Root 1A upgrade thread that was also linked in the discussion rule. Some Root/void shiki downgrades were addressed there.
 
Look at the Root 1A upgrade thread that was also linked in the discussion rule. Some Root/void shiki downgrades were addressed there.
yea, im just seeing unified language stuff as a counter argument for that scaling to the root. the thread topic was mostly on the root itself.

though I did see mentions of a part 2 where stuff like void shiki would be discussed,can you link to that?
 
This is not a General Discussion thread, please don't use it as one.

With regard to the CRT: I am not even sure what exactly is being proposed, and the formatting is very difficult to follow.
 
a lot of the posts here, in general, were deleted because they didn't contribute to the ongoing discussion, such as my comment about liking Carnival Phantasm.
Haven't these arguments been used before? And haven't the necessary answers been given to these arguments?
 
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