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He is a knowledgeable member and widely known to be so, he just never put his name on the list
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Wait... an Undertale upgrade?? Is that even possible?
- Thread starter Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
- Start date
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If his name's not even on the list how's he "in charge" of Undertale?
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(Sigh) Dude, the list is a simple collection of names basically anyone can edit, it's not a prime authority of how much someone is in charge at all, their actual contributions to the verse matters far more than them having their name linked on a page
This is just arguing a very trivial thing anyway
This is just arguing a very trivial thing anyway
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The way people treat it makes it sound like it's much more important than it is.
He's a mod anyways, so.
He's a mod anyways, so.
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Oh.
Technically Read this Post defined our current Undertale statistics, though I don't agree with them.
Technically Read this Post defined our current Undertale statistics, though I don't agree with them.
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Tbh I don't think it is about who defines the statistics. I believe it should simply be about who has the most reliability when it comes to the verse and who has presented the best method and representation of the verse. Sometimes people who are more trusted can be overly trusted to the point where their viewpoint is always seen as fit which can lead to bandwagoning and appeal to authority to some degree. But that's all I'm gonna say cuz it's derailing
@andytrenom Do you think the stuff I've agreed on can be added? If so i can add them and get to the rest of Sean's argument and then maybe get onto frisk and annoying dog
@andytrenom Do you think the stuff I've agreed on can be added? If so i can add them and get to the rest of Sean's argument and then maybe get onto frisk and annoying dog
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Btw, I'd prefer that all the stuff agreed upon can eventually be added at once so we don't have to modify the same pages multiple times.
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I already did.
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Okay. You can ask a few more then.
Here are some suggestions for when there are not enough knowledgeable members available:
Promestein
SomebodyData
Dragonmasterxyz
Celestial Pegasus
Dark649
Monarch Laciel
Saikou The Lewd King
Gemmysaur
Ultima Reality
DarkDragonMedeus
AKM Sama
Dargoo Faust
MrKingOfNegativity
Theglassman12
Wokistan
Andytrenom
Qawsedf234
Crabwhale
Crimson Azoth
Sir Ovens
Warren Valion
Here are some suggestions for when there are not enough knowledgeable members available:
Promestein
SomebodyData
Dragonmasterxyz
Celestial Pegasus
Dark649
Monarch Laciel
Saikou The Lewd King
Gemmysaur
Ultima Reality
DarkDragonMedeus
AKM Sama
Dargoo Faust
MrKingOfNegativity
Theglassman12
Wokistan
Andytrenom
Qawsedf234
Crabwhale
Crimson Azoth
Sir Ovens
Warren Valion
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Alphys definitively isn't smarter than Gaster. She works faster, but that's it. She has never shown feats on Gaster's level and Gaster was lowkey stated to just be better, despite working slowly.
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A lot of this seems taking stuff out of context to give an upgrade, or trying to take the most impressive interpretation of a feat.
That isn't telekinesis, it's magic that can float. There is no one object she is controlling, just her magical energy. And adding it changes absolutely nothing, nor would it make her profile more clear... and for the matter, she doesn't even manipulate them after throwing them.
Rage Power is just a no, she just gradually stops holding them. When she gets angry because you fail to block her first attack it doesn't get faster until she decides to stop being theatratic.
Power Null is just a baseless assumption.
That's not heat manipulation... that's fire manipulation. Because fire... is good for cooking.
Toriel might have the inventory, but assuming she got yellow mode, which is worse then her normal abilities regardless, or a jackpack, is no fair because the latter two were made for the Mettaton farce.
Reading books is fine, but she had over 7 children and always wished to be a teacher... I don't think she just made the curriculum on the fly.
The age is a no. The turtle is describing the delta rune, not how long the two were alive.
The humans are completely unknown in power, so using an off-screen fight with them for tier justification is a no.
Flowey without violence has 19 ATK, obviously he couldn't beat a guy with 80 of it. That's not a reason for scaling when Asgore is superior to monsters stronger that Flowey.
That is not heat, it's fire manipulation.
Snowdin's ice isn't that cold, Undyne feeling cold doesn't mean it's any colder than real life places during winter while snowing (she had no heating clothing, let alone fur like Asgore), and the hotland thing is a gag made because Tobi was too lazy to remove the snow.</p>
The noodles are in her fridge, they are no more standard equipment then the three plates of chicken I have in my own.
Alphys doesn't scale to Ghaster... at all.
She already knew the answer to all the questions except the last one that Mettaton asked to catch her off-guard.
She was behind Mettaton, and I'm relatively sure he was aware of it, too.
Becoming a bodiless soul isn't immortality, and they could only act after being absorbed and not before.
No to Empathic Manipulation. Froggit is the one silly, and trying the same with people that are always serious is impossible.
Act failed to calm down quiet a few people.
The Faded Ribbon claims nothing about bloodlusted monsters.
That isn't dream manipulation. That's at most subjective reality, but more creation... limited to healing items to boot.
Ignoring that frisk passes the whole game possessed by the player, and Chara wasn't trying to manipulate them back then.
Claiming immunity to a power because the the energy can't be created artificially is a horrible NLF. Characters unable to copy tier 2 stuff will obviously be unable to do so, but anyone that can will easily copy DT.
That's not telepathy.
That is not Clairvoyance, it's basic observation. And the vision about Chara..? That's because they absorbed her consciousness.
Those are extrasensory senses. They are also taking the game trying to convey your achievement and a gag too literally, but I digress.
Walking for a few miles with a wounded child instead of any of the adults on the way helping them is not a reasonable assumption.
The skill in beating Asgore was "dodge and hit". Sure, dodging danmaku is a thing, but fighting skill isn't. Asgore killing six children just means they were not the greatest fighters. The other stuff is gags (talking through wriggling) or just unimpressive (the core wasn't that complicated, and doing the opposite of what Alphys told you was a great way to find the way.)
That is not power null, you're just unable to move faster when you can't move at all and even your souls is restricted by threads.
She doesn't fight much personally, and several of the turns are her spiders attacking while she does nothing.
The gets stronger is a gag.
That wasn't the dog itself. That's just another dog prepared to be an explosive.
You won't give it duplication using a deltarune promoting trailer.
- Undyne
That isn't telekinesis, it's magic that can float. There is no one object she is controlling, just her magical energy. And adding it changes absolutely nothing, nor would it make her profile more clear... and for the matter, she doesn't even manipulate them after throwing them.
Rage Power is just a no, she just gradually stops holding them. When she gets angry because you fail to block her first attack it doesn't get faster until she decides to stop being theatratic.
Power Null is just a baseless assumption.
- Toriel
That's not heat manipulation... that's fire manipulation. Because fire... is good for cooking.
Toriel might have the inventory, but assuming she got yellow mode, which is worse then her normal abilities regardless, or a jackpack, is no fair because the latter two were made for the Mettaton farce.
Reading books is fine, but she had over 7 children and always wished to be a teacher... I don't think she just made the curriculum on the fly.
The age is a no. The turtle is describing the delta rune, not how long the two were alive.
- Asgore
The humans are completely unknown in power, so using an off-screen fight with them for tier justification is a no.
Flowey without violence has 19 ATK, obviously he couldn't beat a guy with 80 of it. That's not a reason for scaling when Asgore is superior to monsters stronger that Flowey.
That is not heat, it's fire manipulation.
Snowdin's ice isn't that cold, Undyne feeling cold doesn't mean it's any colder than real life places during winter while snowing (she had no heating clothing, let alone fur like Asgore), and the hotland thing is a gag made because Tobi was too lazy to remove the snow.</p>
- Papyrus
- Alphys
The noodles are in her fridge, they are no more standard equipment then the three plates of chicken I have in my own.
Alphys doesn't scale to Ghaster... at all.
She already knew the answer to all the questions except the last one that Mettaton asked to catch her off-guard.
She was behind Mettaton, and I'm relatively sure he was aware of it, too.
- Frisk
Becoming a bodiless soul isn't immortality, and they could only act after being absorbed and not before.
No to Empathic Manipulation. Froggit is the one silly, and trying the same with people that are always serious is impossible.
Act failed to calm down quiet a few people.
The Faded Ribbon claims nothing about bloodlusted monsters.
That isn't dream manipulation. That's at most subjective reality, but more creation... limited to healing items to boot.
Ignoring that frisk passes the whole game possessed by the player, and Chara wasn't trying to manipulate them back then.
Claiming immunity to a power because the the energy can't be created artificially is a horrible NLF. Characters unable to copy tier 2 stuff will obviously be unable to do so, but anyone that can will easily copy DT.
That's not telepathy.
That is not Clairvoyance, it's basic observation. And the vision about Chara..? That's because they absorbed her consciousness.
Those are extrasensory senses. They are also taking the game trying to convey your achievement and a gag too literally, but I digress.
Walking for a few miles with a wounded child instead of any of the adults on the way helping them is not a reasonable assumption.
The skill in beating Asgore was "dodge and hit". Sure, dodging danmaku is a thing, but fighting skill isn't. Asgore killing six children just means they were not the greatest fighters. The other stuff is gags (talking through wriggling) or just unimpressive (the core wasn't that complicated, and doing the opposite of what Alphys told you was a great way to find the way.)
- Vulki
- Muffet
That is not power null, you're just unable to move faster when you can't move at all and even your souls is restricted by threads.
She doesn't fight much personally, and several of the turns are her spiders attacking while she does nothing.
- Annoying Dog
The gets stronger is a gag.
That wasn't the dog itself. That's just another dog prepared to be an explosive.
You won't give it duplication using a deltarune promoting trailer.
- Chara
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I agree with Ricsi.
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Yeah, Ricsi and the others seem reasonable to me.
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I never said Alphys was smarter.I never Saikou The Lewd King said:
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Ill look at riscis in a bit if i disagree with anything he said.
@Saikou I dont think its an attempt to say alphys is smarter. I think a note under her intelligence saying something like "while she likely posesses less intelligence, alphys has been noted to work faster than gaster" since it is still noteworthy.
@Saikou I dont think its an attempt to say alphys is smarter. I think a note under her intelligence saying something like "while she likely posesses less intelligence, alphys has been noted to work faster than gaster" since it is still noteworthy.
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The changes I didn't argue against should be fine.Antvasima said:
In retrospect, I should have made a list of that stuff.
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@Ricsi Do you mean the ones neither of us argued against? I have the changes i agreed on listed above.
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With what?
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Yes.Read this post said:
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I have QUITE a few arguments.
I said she was an expert of her signature spears, not a "signature expert". Since they were in her silverware drawer she likely uses them to eat. Even if she DID use them to train with Asgore, she would still know how to use them.
Undyne still uses her mind to move it, even if it is her own magical energy. Not controlling it's vectors after it's thrown doesn't mean she never did it in the first place.
I never mentioned that part of the fight, but that's also a good example.
It's not baseless when I literally showed it happening.
You're not even mentioning the part where the erasing of the constructs happens.
You don't use fire on the inside of an oven.
Shooting bullets out of your SOUL is somehow worse than what she can normally do, even though she can also use her normal abilities in Yellow Mode? Even if you assume Mettaton was telling the truth when he tried to tell you that Alphys was using you (She didn't even do what Mettaton said she was going to do in a situation where she couldn't hear him), Alphys isn't selective in who she helps.
The time frame is ambiguous, but that's kind of what you're led to believe.
Except the Delta Rune is the symbol of the Kingdom of Monsters, which has existed since before written history.
Undyne being theatric sometimes doesn't disprove what she said in the first place. Not to mention she was full of rage during the fight.
We actually do know how strong humans are. One Human SOUL is equivalent to almost every single Monster SOUL in the Underground combined. But that doesn't matter since it's a feat in itself to do something only Gerson and Toriel have done firsthand.
Base Flowey doesn't have canon STATs.
See Toriel's second argument.
Undyne can no-sell 9000 degree ovens overloading in her face, temperature doesn't affect her that much. Spongebob episodes have just as many "gags" with similar intentions as the gags used here and those are used as feats too.
You're still assuming that Mettaton wasn't lying when he said that Alphys was behind everything, which has a lot of evidence against it.
Pretty sure she uses noodles a lot more than you use chicken.
How? That doesn't disprove my reasoning.
That's assuming she knew what the questions would be.
Tf are you talking about? And it was mentioned that Frisk originally thought it was impossible to beat him.
No, the bodiless soul is immortal. And they didn't move because they had nowhere to go.
So because Froggit is "silly", which he is not, Frisk can't affect people with her words? Tf?
No it didn't. Undyne is a possibility, but she was Bloodlusted and was calmed down.
You're right. It doesn't. But crazed Amalgamates and Undyne during her fight do less damage to you because of the Ribbon and it's effects.
Creating and holding dreams isn't Dream Manipulation? TF?!?
The "player" isn't even a real person. Minecraft's "player" page was deleted and he had more evidence to actually exist than Undertale's. And even on the Genocide run, Chara starts possessing you by the time you get to Toriel's house.
Immunity itself is a NLF.
Reading minds isn't telepathy? Wtf?
Yes it is. Frisk is gaining information about a person, and seeing something that happened in past.
>they absorbed her consciousness
WTF?!?
Good, so you agree.
It would since Chara wasn't significantly wounded.
So because Asgore can be beaten, he's not skilled, all his enemies are weak, and my points don't matter?
I know, some people have mentioned that.
"Social Influencing is ones ability to manipulate other characters using some form of charm." It doesn't need to convince him, it needs to be able to get her what she wants.
So it's not what I said but it is what I said?
Muffet's spiders ARE her attacks. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
I've seen worse avatars added.
Funny =/= didn't happen.
Prove it's a different dog.
Why not? It's official content.
They're weak to the ATTACKER'S feelings. Chara IS Genocide Frisk.
I said she was an expert of her signature spears, not a "signature expert". Since they were in her silverware drawer she likely uses them to eat. Even if she DID use them to train with Asgore, she would still know how to use them.
Undyne still uses her mind to move it, even if it is her own magical energy. Not controlling it's vectors after it's thrown doesn't mean she never did it in the first place.
I never mentioned that part of the fight, but that's also a good example.
It's not baseless when I literally showed it happening.
You're not even mentioning the part where the erasing of the constructs happens.
You don't use fire on the inside of an oven.
Shooting bullets out of your SOUL is somehow worse than what she can normally do, even though she can also use her normal abilities in Yellow Mode? Even if you assume Mettaton was telling the truth when he tried to tell you that Alphys was using you (She didn't even do what Mettaton said she was going to do in a situation where she couldn't hear him), Alphys isn't selective in who she helps.
The time frame is ambiguous, but that's kind of what you're led to believe.
Except the Delta Rune is the symbol of the Kingdom of Monsters, which has existed since before written history.
Undyne being theatric sometimes doesn't disprove what she said in the first place. Not to mention she was full of rage during the fight.
We actually do know how strong humans are. One Human SOUL is equivalent to almost every single Monster SOUL in the Underground combined. But that doesn't matter since it's a feat in itself to do something only Gerson and Toriel have done firsthand.
Base Flowey doesn't have canon STATs.
See Toriel's second argument.
Undyne can no-sell 9000 degree ovens overloading in her face, temperature doesn't affect her that much. Spongebob episodes have just as many "gags" with similar intentions as the gags used here and those are used as feats too.
You're still assuming that Mettaton wasn't lying when he said that Alphys was behind everything, which has a lot of evidence against it.
Pretty sure she uses noodles a lot more than you use chicken.
How? That doesn't disprove my reasoning.
That's assuming she knew what the questions would be.
Tf are you talking about? And it was mentioned that Frisk originally thought it was impossible to beat him.
No, the bodiless soul is immortal. And they didn't move because they had nowhere to go.
So because Froggit is "silly", which he is not, Frisk can't affect people with her words? Tf?
No it didn't. Undyne is a possibility, but she was Bloodlusted and was calmed down.
You're right. It doesn't. But crazed Amalgamates and Undyne during her fight do less damage to you because of the Ribbon and it's effects.
Creating and holding dreams isn't Dream Manipulation? TF?!?
The "player" isn't even a real person. Minecraft's "player" page was deleted and he had more evidence to actually exist than Undertale's. And even on the Genocide run, Chara starts possessing you by the time you get to Toriel's house.
Immunity itself is a NLF.
Reading minds isn't telepathy? Wtf?
Yes it is. Frisk is gaining information about a person, and seeing something that happened in past.
>they absorbed her consciousness
WTF?!?
Good, so you agree.
It would since Chara wasn't significantly wounded.
So because Asgore can be beaten, he's not skilled, all his enemies are weak, and my points don't matter?
I know, some people have mentioned that.
"Social Influencing is ones ability to manipulate other characters using some form of charm." It doesn't need to convince him, it needs to be able to get her what she wants.
So it's not what I said but it is what I said?
Muffet's spiders ARE her attacks. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
I've seen worse avatars added.
Funny =/= didn't happen.
Prove it's a different dog.
Why not? It's official content.
They're weak to the ATTACKER'S feelings. Chara IS Genocide Frisk.
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I'm not going through walls of text (I read it, but I won't be writing them). Burden of Proof nulls majority of that, and another majority is destroyed by Occam's Razor (in what world is it more fair to assume Toriel erased magic bullets instead of them just not being there because the attacker was blown the hell back).
Some are non-sequitors too (the delta rune's age means nothing to Asgore's age), and I'm not going to write an answer to each one of these.
Some are non-sequitors too (the delta rune's age means nothing to Asgore's age), and I'm not going to write an answer to each one of these.
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The thing about Flowey's stats I would like Ricsi to give sources for. Apart from that I mostly agree, only thing is that I have only focused on the arguments till the Frisk section, with the exception of Muffet's social influencing which I agree with Ricsi that she shouldn't have
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Almost 2 years of Undertale debating and there are still new downplay reasonings I have yet to see, it seems.
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Can we just finish this soon so I don't have to go to college with something to worry about?
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We have to nail down what hax should even be added, since everyone seems to have a different version of what should be added or not.
Andytrenom is skeptical.
Read this post seems to agree with most.
Saikou seems content.
Risci Virasausage hates everything.
Andytrenom is skeptical.
Read this post seems to agree with most.
Saikou seems content.
Risci Virasausage hates everything.
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To make a long story short, I just want to know what I can and can't add for the profiles.
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I'm convinced.
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Perhaps it would be worthwhile if the knowledgeable members categorized their stances?
For example, list what you unconditionally agree with.
Once we establish what's unanimously agreed upon by the knowledgeable members and supporters in this debate, it may be reasonable to implement those revisions.
Things might go quicker if we don't have to repeat "I agree" for things we unanimously agree on, & we can at least implement those revisions while we debate the more contentious subjects.
Then, let's focus on what's (un)conditionally (dis)agreed upon.
Does that seem like a reasonable approach?
For example, list what you unconditionally agree with.
Once we establish what's unanimously agreed upon by the knowledgeable members and supporters in this debate, it may be reasonable to implement those revisions.
Things might go quicker if we don't have to repeat "I agree" for things we unanimously agree on, & we can at least implement those revisions while we debate the more contentious subjects.
Then, let's focus on what's (un)conditionally (dis)agreed upon.
Does that seem like a reasonable approach?
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Sans is now in Smash.
Upgrade every monster to High 7-A
Upgrade every monster to High 7-A
