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Visions of V: New tiering for the edgy lad.

KnightOfSunlight

KnightOfSunlight

2,486
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So, after reading the Visions of V spinoff manga, V seems to be a bit more blatantly super human than we give him credit for. Since we now have some official sources, let's get to rescaling everyone's favorite edgy boi.

Firstly, let's start with some AP feats, shall we? These feats are quite simple:

V lightning strikes and Empusa
Griffon lightning strikes an Empusa


Here, we see Griffon call down a blast of lightning on an Empusa. Keep in mind that this Empusa is being struck by Griffon's lightning, which is 7-B in AP. But that's not all...

Empusa gets up
It gets back up


It gets back up. Not even that long after it's hit, for starters. And then...

And gets struck again


And again.


It gets struck at least 3 times in short order. By 7-B lightning. Not only does it get back up, but it immediately pursues and attacks Griffon and V...

Empusa cannot catch a break


And gets struck by another bolt. Immediately after being struck by 7-B lightning 4 times, it proceeds to maul Griffon, dealing intense damage to him. And then V...

V kills an Empusa


Kills it in a single blow.

Now, let's get to the arguments against this being 7-B.

1. V was using his cane, which amps his strength and AP.

Aha, but this is proven wrong not two seconds earlier by V grabbing it from a normal shop. Additionally, Griffon himself confirms that the cane is not a Devil Arm, and even states that the only thing special about it is that it might have some materials from the Demon World mixed in. Then he even further disproves this counter-argument by stating that this happens all the time and wouldn't make the cane special.

A normal cane
Griffon confirms the cane is normal


So this confirms that not only is the cane not special, but that it was indeed V's own AP that killed the Empusa.

2. Griffon had weakened the Empusa, therefore V could kill it.

This is a blatant no. Not only was the Empusa struck four times by Griffon's lightning, it was not in a weakened state like is shown during V's gameplay and in the Goliath cutscene. It is perfectly capable of attacking, and the only time it is knocked down is something that Empusas have a tendency to do in gameplay as well, which is take a while to get up.

BONUS ROUND: Some more stuff for V:

V falls a few stories


V freefalls from a few stories up onto his back and is unharmed. This reinforces my last calc which put V at Street Level+ durability. Thanks for posting that @DarkGrath, though I'm sad to say it will likely be changed by this.

V dodges and blocks shadow


V, from relatively close range, dodges and blocks Shadow, a MHS+ being. This merely reinforces the MHS+ reactions, but considering that he moved his body to block the attack, it could put him at MHS+ flat, rather than having just his reactions be scaled to it. Additionally it could be argued that, considering how many attacks Cavaliere Angelo, Niddhogg, and the Nobody Trio throw out, it's pretty fair to say we might need to rescale V's speed to MHS+, like how we did to Dante scaling to Relativistic.

That is about all. Good day!
 
So, things that this would change:

1. V turns into a 7-B.

2. Since his scaling is based off of an Empusa's feat, it would need a new page. It would likely be 7-B, or at least 7-B in durability.

3. Since Nero can kill Empusas by the dozen, he should have a new key added with an at least 7-B, likely far higher rating for his DMC5 Pre-awakening self., or, his DMC4 key shoul have a likely far higher attached to the key.
 
...

A Empusa is like a fodder in DMC5, I mean, the maximum fodder in the game, it can't be on DMC1 Griffon level, a f*** Mundus General, it's a huge outlier

Also, Griffon is 7-B scalling from bosses like Cavaliere Angelo, yes, but this doesn't make every single one of his lightning attacks at 7-B level, if we give everything that a characters throws their max AP, Dante would one shot 99,9% of the verse with a bullet, but this doesn't happened in the Anime, for example. It's wrong and even if those Lightning attacks are all 7-B, it would be a massive Outlier, a ultra fodder Empusa can't be on the same level as Mundus Generals
 
I was thinking on downgrading DMCV Nero or make two keys, BoG and EoG because for most of the game he is the same as his DMC4 self and he destroying Urizen's barrier seems more like an outlier.
 
This is the demon tree that gave Mundus his power. The things spawned from it might be extremely powerful, but I can understand your skepticism, and I even agree with it somewhat.

However, Dante does indeed hold back his attacks, but Griffon does not, at all. It is not illogical to assume that Griffon would attack here with full power, especially since he needs V's help and would want to impress him, or at least earn his trust.

Additionally, the Empusa had a sack full of human blood, which, as we've seen in DMC5, improves it's power, durability, etc. And since we know that, from Trish and the Qliphoth, human blood contains power, it could be that the Empusa is in an amped state during this.

Like I said, this wouldn't neccesarily scale to it's AP, since it only mauled a weakened Griffon. However, it's not unheard of for things to have higher durability than they do AP. And considering that Griffon has no reason to hold back, nor an established character for holding back, well.
 
Also, it's worth mentioning that on July 6th V and Griffon will be fighting Phantom, so...

This all might be useless, but it's very likely to rescale V to 7-B regardless of this thread's outcome.

And I agree with Tony on DMC5 Nero gaining a new key for his BoG and MoG self.
 
Honestly, I've been thinking about the feat of Nero breaking the blood crystal for a while. And while it is still almost certainly an outlier... there is still a possibility here of it being valid.

Remember, tier jumps between games are very prevalent in DMC. In between DMC1 and 2, Dante goes from being 7-B to 3-A. With this in mind, the idea that Nero could go through a similar upgrade between DMC4 and 5 is not actually impossible.

Now, I'm still not stating this is the case. Nero, while certainly quite powerful, is still not shown to be as powerful as DMC5 Dante (at least, not pre-Devil Trigger). So the idea that he could destroy the blood crystal when Dante couldn't is still outlier-ish.

Either way, this is mainly pointless to discuss, unless a pre-Devil Trigger DMC5 key is added for Nero. This is just me tossing my 2 cents into the discussion.

Oh, also, I agree with the V upgrades. It's bizarre to think that, at best, his durability would be 9-C putting him far below even the weakest characters in the franchise. Now that we have some proper feats for him, this seems valid.
 
I probably should have, but this is more than enough and I felt like it doesn't make sense for it to not be talked about.

Like, I understand uh... Dante's... skepticism, I really do. But since the Demon wasn't in the "Weakened" state (it could still take action), well...
 
Doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree, Knight, only Dark, Kep or Matt are necessary for this upgrade

However, I keep my point

This is the demon tree that gave Mundus his power. The things spawned from it might be extremely powerful, but I can understand your skepticism, and I even agree with it somewhat.

"Might" doesn't work

Also, the Tree gave Mundus those powers with the fruit which was stated as being much more powerful than the tree itself

However, Dante does indeed hold back his attacks, but Griffon does not, at all. It is not illogical to assume that Griffon would attack here with full power, especially since he needs V's help and would want to impress him, or at least earn his trust.

Griffon also plays around, maybe not like Dante, but he does, and as I said, if he was 100% serious and was using 7-B Lighting (which is likely the case), then it's an outlier, a Empusa can't be as durable as a Mundus General, or if we take an example from DMC5, we have Cavaliere Angelo, who's 7-B scalling from Trish, who scales to DMC1 Dante, who scales to DMc1 Griffon, one of Mundus Generals. Now, try to think on a Empusa on the same level as Cavaliere Angelo, we have a Army of demons that are more powerful than a Empusa in 5, they still fodders next to Cavaliere Angelo

Additionally, the Empusa had a sack full of human blood, which, as we've seen in DMC5, improves it's power, durability, etc. And since we know that, from Trish and the Qliphoth, human blood contains power, it could be that the Empusa is in an amped state during this.

The Empusa certanly was amped, but they had much more human blood in Redgrave, yet, they can be defeated by Lady level characters, since she was on the Qliphoth at the beggining fighting their way to Urizen alongside Trish and they even arrived first. And Lady is 9-B, 9-A with Kalina Ann, or in other words, ultra-fodder, nd still capable of defeating Empusas inside the Qliphoth. And even with more blood, they still massive fodders to Cavaliere Angelo, even a Fury is much more powerful

V also clearly states that he is out of demonic power, so how he would be more powerful than DMC3 Vergil, for example ? If he's 7-B he doesn't even need familiars to begin with, and the Empusa was about to die with that last Lightning, V is just a kill stealer

This actually makes me to believe that Griffon isn't 7-B, however, we should wait to see Phantom, for now I can't agree with this, and by a lot, this is nowhere near enough to say that V is 7-B, we only have Empusa surviving one Lightning from Griffon and about to die after another, with V finishing it
 
Okay I'll make a full response in a bit, but he survives four lightning bolts. And is perfectly fine after that, able to maul a weakened Griffon.
 
Four? The impression I've had is that he's being hit by one, and the manga is only showing the same lighting hitting the Empusa in some pages, they're not different in every single one tho

That one that Griffon shot at him in the first page is the same from the others, and then he fire another in the fourth page, which was going to kill the empusa
 
V lightning strikes and Empusa
Griffon lightning strikes an Empusa

The first Lightning


Empusa gets up
It gets back up


Still the same lightning


And gets struck again


It doesn't get strucked here again, is just they flying with the Empusa having electricity around it, obviously because of Griffon's first shot


And again.


The second one


Empusa cannot catch a break


Stil the same lightning


V kills an Empusa


Kill stealer


Well, only two, nowhere near enough to give V a 7-B key, not only for this but for all those reasons I gave you on the other post
 
Whether it is strange or not is barely a factor here. We physically see that he can withstand Griffons lightning, which should put its durability close to Griffons AP. It's strange, I'm aware. But it is literally what we see.
 
Alright so, I'm gonna go to sleep since I have work tomorrow but I'd like to say a little bit before I make a huge post dump tomorrow afternoon.

Firstly, we need to wait for the Phantom battle. Seriously. I should have waited, that's my bad.

Secondly, it seems I was wrong about 4 bolts, but three bolts are still there. The one with lightning coming from Griffon's chest is a seperate bolt.

Thirdly, even assuming that this was just normal lightning, that still puts V and Empusas at around 8-C.

And lastly, Assuming V has absolutely no power whatsoever when the manga explicitly states that V is both Vergil's human half and the remnants of Nelo Angelo is ludicris. That's the in-universe reason for V possibly being more powerful than DMC3 Vergil
 
DarkGrath said:
Whether it is strange or not is barely a factor here. We physically see that he can withstand Griffons lightning, which should put its durability close to Griffons AP. It's strange, I'm aware. But it is literally what we see.
Click to expand...
That's not the point tho, the point is that it's an outliner.

At most i can see V scaling from DMC 3 Dante.
 
Being Vergil's Human Half just makes him human, while being the remnants of Nelo Angelo certainly is interesting but not enough to say he's 7-B, since he's not Nelo Angelo at his absolute peak.

Well, we see Empusa hurting him, right ? And he kills it, so we can actually scale him to his durability, which is 9-C
 
I don't think V's Griffon should be scaled to the original one tbf.

Overall, I believe V should be "8-C, higher with Griffon and Shadow." Nightmare would get its own rating, which should be at least 8-B, since it comes down as a small meteor and is unfazed by that.
 
Isn't Griffon considered 7-B due to comparing to demons like Cavalier Angelo?
 
RebubleUselet said:
V only fought its metaphysical form, and it was stated by Nico to be weaker to an unknown extent.
Click to expand...
You forgot the Geryon Knight battle.
 
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