Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

[AncientKing95]

You have yet to provide proof that world usually refers to planet.

Also, if you honestly think laws and concepts that make up the world refers to laws and concepts that maintain a planet then I'm not debating you anymore.

Explain this to me because I want to hear it directly from you: What makes up a universe in Maou Gakuin? After that, logically explain why the laws and concepts that maintain the world aren't referring to the planet. You can act like you've won this argument as much as you've like, but you've not once provided any solid evidence to debunk my claims. All you've been doing thus far is parroting your own headcanon over and over. So, if you manage to go through each of my points and actually prove each of them wrong with solid evidence rather than headcanon I'll admit that I was wrong this whole time and end the argument here. If not, then you've just been wasting your time trying to prove a point without backing it up.

 

[Worthless]

I agree. it sounds NLF to say that silver sea is included, sure the statements all of creation... but does silver sea really counted on that? The statements could just be within one universe. But don't knoww.

 

[Worthless]

If you think that world means planet, the burden falls on you to provide proof that it actually refers to a planet and not a universe, since most of the time world actually refers to a universe.

Not most, since sometimes it could refer to a planet or a star. Also don't get the wrong idea, i don't disagree with world = universe on maou gakuen.

Edit

 

[imZer0Null]

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You are trying to tell me that the concept of time (Order of time) only applies to a planet...

I also haven't been provided proof of world usually referring to planet, so there's nothing for me to disprove.

 

[imZer0Null]

I agree. it sounds NLF to say that silver sea is included, sure the statements all of creation... but does silver sea really counted on that? The statements could just be within one universe. But don't know.

The thing is the statement says "Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are", meaning how strong, eternal or infinite Anos thought creation was is irrelevant, since he can destroy it regardless of those factors, and thus it isn't really nlf to say that the Silver Sea is included.

 

[Worthless]

The thing is the statement says "Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are", meaning how strong, eternal or infinite Anos thought creation was is irrelevant, since he can destroy it regardless of those factors, and thus it isn't really nlf to say that the Silver Sea is included.

I doubt that. The all of creations could just maybe mean one universe. not literal the whole creations. also aren't the verse said each universe is an infinite size? Maybe the infinite is just within the one verse

Order:

The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”.

Order are the laws that define how the universe works or the concepts that maintain how these laws function

Both scans show that orders are bounded to universes, in each world, there is an order which is bounded to that world. This is all fine and good but here is the problem, There isn't an order that bounds whole layers nor is their an order that bounds the entire Sliversea. Hence, he shouldn't be 2-B

Yours are hella NLF. Sorry.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I doubt that. The all of creations could just maybe mean one universe. not literal the whole creations. also aren't the verse said each universe is an infinite size? Maybe the infinite is just within the one verse

Yours are hella NLF. Sorry.

That order argument doesnt work since Venuzdonoa's order isnt limited to its universe of origin

 

[AncientKing95]

You are trying to tell me that the concept of time (Order of time) only applies to a planet...

I also haven't been provided proof of world usually referring to planet, so there's nothing for me to disprove.

The concepts and laws that uphold the world originate from and exist within the Blue Dome of the Gods. The author has made a clear distinction between the Blue Dome of the Gods being one thing and the world itself being another. So yes, the concepts and laws that uphold the world do refer to the planet and originate from the Blue Dome of the Gods. Then there's the infinite black skies that is literally just that. No concepts are applicable there.

Whether you want to acknowledge it as proof or not, it is definite proof. If you actually want to prove otherwise, take each of the claims I made in that comment and debunk/refute them like I did for yours. If you're not capable of doing that, then anything you say afterwards is utterly pointless.

 

[Worthless]

But still. Doesn't this sound NLF to say that silver sea is included? Most of the time The "all of creations feats" in fiction could just mean one universe. But don't know.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

But still. Doesn't this sound NLF to say that silver sea is included? Most of the time The "all of creations feats" in fiction could just mean one universe. But don't know.

Elaborate with "most", and which fiction you are talking about.

Anyway I disagree with this, the rest arguments on this thread seems desperate and nitpicky.

 

[AncientKing95]

That order argument doesnt work since Venuzdonoa's order isnt limited to its universe of origin

Neither is the Sun of Ruin. Just because Venuzdonoa can still exert it's Order in the Silver Sea doesn't mean that it's as OP as it was in the Militia World. In the first place, Anos hasn't actually tried to destroy the entire Militia World so we can't compare Venuzdonoa in the Militia World not shown at it's best to Venuzdonoa in the rest of the Silver Sea not shown at it's best. Venuzdonoa at it's best in the Militia World is destroying anything no matter how eternal or infinite, that may not be the case in the rest of the Silver Sea.

 

[Worthless]

Elaborate with "most", and which fiction you are talking about.

Anyway I disagree with this, the rest arguments on this thread seems desperate and nitpicky.

Most of novel example: clearing an isekai or i was caught up in hero summoning.

 

[imZer0Null]

Neither is the Sun of Ruin. Just because Venuzdonoa can still exert it's Order in the Silver Sea doesn't mean that it's as OP as it was in the Militia World. In the first place, Anos hasn't actually tried to destroy the entire Militia World so we can't compare Venuzdonoa in the Militia World not shown at it's best to Venuzdonoa in the rest of the Silver Sea not shown at it's best. Venuzdonoa at it's best in the Militia World is destroying anything no matter how eternal or infinite, that may not be the case in the rest of the Silver Sea.

Again you're just ignoring the fact that Venuzdonoa is a deep magic, meaning it's still as OP in deep layers.

 

[imZer0Null]

What we know is that Pre-Silver Sea, nobody from the Militia World, not even Militia herself knew of the existence of the bubble that they resided in, much less the Silver Sea. So when they used the term world, it wasn't referring to the entire bubble that qualifies as a universe. As it's been made clear that the largest part of the universe are the infinite black skies (as well as the Blue Dome of the Gods that reside in them), and that the infinite black skies and the world aren't one and the same, we know for certain that the term 'world' can refer to the planet. Context-wise, it also makes sense that 'world' refers to planet the majority of the time.

P.S: Make sure to click the 'Click to expand' part as that is where the bulk of my evidence and debunking resides.

I have nothing really to debunk here since you only quoted parts that supported your argument.

Here's one of the entire quotes. Please read this twice, first time replacing the word "world" with planet, and second time replacing the word "world" with universe.

It's called the 'outside world' but no one has ever seen anything outside this world. Even if it were another space or another world, it must be something within this world after all.

'That being the Creator God? You mind telling us directly what the end of the world looks like?

'All right.

Misha stood up and walked forward, sending her magic to the blackboard.

'Above the sky and below the earth, a black dome stretches out.

What was added around the world drawn on the blackboard was a black sky, a black dome.

'The farther you go from this earth, the more the black dome is stretched and the closer you get to nothingness. It is here, in this near-infinite sky, that the divine world is located.

A 'Blue Dome of the Gods' is added to the black dome.

'This black dome stretches on forever with no end.

'Why not fly faster than the black dome can stretch?

'Because when you fly up to the sky, you'll just end up coming from below the earth.

'In other words, the space in this world is not even, but distorted. I thought I flew up but the direction changed naturally and I went around the world and came out from below. You could say this world has a sphere system.

Eldemade added to the diagram on the blackboard, making the world a sphere.

'Outside of this sphere, it can be thought that an order different from our world has created a different sphere. Another world, perhaps?

Again, if you bring me actual proof that shows me world usually refers to planet, then by all means I'll try and debunk it, but so far you've just quoted stuff that support your argument and made baseless and contradictory statements.

 

[AncientKing95]

Again you're just ignoring the fact that Venuzdonoa is a deep magic, meaning it's still as OP in deep layers.

<Egil Grone Angdroa> is a deep magic that's still OP in deep layers. That doesn't mean that it can destroy the entire Silver Sea. Yet again, Anos is the one who made that statement of Venuzdonoa being able to destroy anything no matter how eternal or infinite, and with context to just the Militia World, not the entire Silver Sea. This statement was made in 1st-person perspective not objectively. What Anos thought of as "no matter how eternal or infinite" is relevant, as that's what his statement is based upon. Just because Venuzdonoa is still OP in the Silver Sea doesn't mean that it's still the end-all, be-all that it was in the Militia World. In the first place, it's highly unlikely that Anos himself could destroy the entire Silver Sea, as he hasn't even come close to destroying an entire layer.

 

[imZer0Null]

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False equivalency.
That magic doesn't have statements saying it can destroy all creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite it is, unlike Venuzdonoa.

 

[AncientKing95]

I have nothing really to debunk here since you only quoted parts that supported your argument.

Here's one of the entire quotes. Please read this twice, first time replacing the word "world" with planet, and second time replacing the word "world" with universe.



Again, if you bring me actual proof that shows me world usually refers to planet, then by all means I'll try and debunk it, but so far you've just quoted stuff that support your argument and made baseless and contradictory statements.

My point was that most of the time world refers to planet. So I only quoted statements relavent to that. That doesn't mean that world can't refer to other things as well, it's just that it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

Even in the entire quote, world has also been used to refer to the planet, like in this statement "What was added around the world drawn on the blackboard was a black sky, a black dome", so what's your point? If everything that is a part of the universe within a bubble consists of the world, the Blue Dome of the Gods and the infinite black skies, then world clearly refers to the planet most of the time.

Prove that any of my statements were baseless and contradictory. I've provided evidence for my claims in regards to the usage of the term 'world', and everything I've said has fallen in line with each other. If you're going to tack on a claim like that, you should be able to prove it.

 

[imZer0Null]

My point was that most of the time world refers to planet. So I only quoted statements relevant to that. That doesn't mean that world can't refer to other things as well, it's just that it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

Yeah and that's not how this works. You can't just provide the quotes that support your argument.

like in this statement "What was added around the world drawn on the blackboard was a black sky, a black dome", so what's your point? If everything that is a part of the universe within a bubble consists of the world, the Blue Dome of the Gods and the infinite black skies, then world clearly refers to the planet most of the time.

Exactly. This one single line is the only one where world could refer to planet. During the rest of the quote, world referring to planet makes no sense.

Also, it isn't that uncommon for a single universe to contain universe sized realms within it.

 

[AncientKing95]

Yeah and that's not how this works. You can't just provide the quotes that support your argument.


Exactly. This one single line is the only one where world could refer to planet. During the rest of the quote, world referring to planet makes no sense.

In this case, I can provide only quotes that support my argument. Because they prove without a shadow of a doubt that my argument is correct. The rest of the quote(s) are irrelevant, because they still don't disprove anything I said. So it would be a waste of space showing the entire thing.

Wouldn't make sense in this quote, sure. However, world is used many more times throughout the series than just seen in this one particular quote. And given context, you can tell that it usually refers to planet. Like pretty much anytime something says that the world has been damaged or could be destroyed in some way.

 

[imZer0Null]

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You still don't get it... No. 20

If you can provide me with multiple quotes, not just the parts that support your argument, that proves that during the entire series world only refers to planet, then I'll try and debunk that.

Remember to add the entire quote and give a chapter number, so you can't commit any more fallacies.

 

[SupremeNiva]

Agree with the downgrade

 

[Dereck03]

Agree with the downgrade

At least give reasons

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Most of novel example: clearing an isekai or i was caught up in hero summoning.

Give example or quote, or it'd be dishonesty since there is no way that "all of creation" does only refer to one universe in multiversal cosmology, unless the verses you were talking about have only one universe within them. all of creation is one of the most blatant way to describe all of existence, whole cosmology. Anos could destroy worlds, his ability can affect the deeper layers. "Venuzdonoa has no feat to affect the Silver Sea!" when the statement does say that it can destroy all of the creation, or everything, is as worth as an AOE fallacy, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of an absent. To say all of creation here does not mean all of creation, you need proofs.

The argument regarding 'world = planet' doesn't make sense since I'm sure MGKF is never happen to refer planets as worlds, in contrary, it does refers the near-infinite bubbles with their own spacetime as worlds (I don't even remember this verse has the usage of planets or universes as noun, unless I'm missing something here I'm fine fine for y'll to correct me). So it is true that you as well need proofs to say that worlds in the context here is limited to planets.

 

[AncientKing95]

You still don't get it... No. 20

If you can provide me with multiple quotes, not just the parts that support your argument, that proves that during the entire series world only refers to planet, then I'll try and debunk that.

Remember to add the entire quote and give a chapter number, so you can't commit any more fallacies.

Holy shit! I literally never said that that world only refers to planet throughout the entire series. I said most of the time. At this point you're just deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.

 

[imZer0Null]

Holy shit! I literally never said that that world only refers to planet throughout the entire series. I said most of the time. At this point you're just deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.

My bad.

If you can provide me with multiple quotes, not just the parts that support your argument, that proves that during the entire series world only most of the time refers to planet, then I'll try and debunk that.

Remember to add the entire quote and give a chapter number, so you can't commit any more fallacies.

 

[AncientKing95]

Give example or quote, or it'd be dishonesty since there is no way that "all of creation" does only refer to one universe in multiversal cosmology, unless the verses you were talking about have only one universe within them. all of creation is one of the most blatant way to describe all of existence, whole cosmology. Anos could destroy worlds, his ability can affect the deeper layers. "Venuzdonoa has no feat to affect the Silver Sea!" when the statement does say that it can destroy all of the creation, or everything, is as worth as an AOE fallacy, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of an absent. To say all of creation here does not mean all of creation, you need proofs.

The argument regarding 'world = planet' doesn't make sense since I'm sure MGKF is never happen to refer planets as worlds, in contrary, it does refers the near-infinite bubbles with their own spacetime as worlds (I don't even remember this verse has the usage of planets or universes as noun, unless I'm missing something here I'm fine fine for y'll to correct me). So it is true that you as well need proofs to say that worlds in the context here is limited to planets.

Read post #112 (and make sure to 'Click to expand') and you'll understand.

 

[Otonashi]

I disagree

 

[Bernkastelll]

This thread is one of the worse that I saw, I disagree

 

[imZer0Null]

Read post #112 (and make sure to 'Click to expand') and you'll understand.

That entire post is one big fallacy.

 

[AncientKing95]

That entire post is one big fallacy.

There is not a single fallacy about it. I only provided relavant quotes. You could literally add any other quote from the series into there and it wouldn't disprove my point. So it would be a waste of space to add it.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Read post #112 (and make sure to 'Click to expand') and you'll understand.

I already did, quote me where the world does refer to planet in this case, if I'm not mistaken, earth and the near-infinite sky is what the world is.

 

[imZer0Null]

There is not a single fallacy about it. I only provided relavant quotes. You could literally add any other quote from the series into there and it wouldn't disprove my point. So it would be a waste of space to add it.

Wut..?

In this case, I can provide only quotes that support my argument. Because they prove without a shadow of a doubt that my argument is correct. The rest of the quote(s) are irrelevant, because they still don't disprove anything I said. So it would be a waste of space showing the entire thing.

Wouldn't make sense in this quote, sure. However, world is used many more times throughout the series than just seen in this one particular quote. And given context, you can tell that it usually refers to planet. Like pretty much anytime something says that the world has been damaged or could be destroyed in some way.

Right here you admitted that when looking at the entire quote, and not just the single line that proved your argument, that it wouldn't make sense...

 

[SupremeNiva]

At least give reasons

I like maou gakuin downgrade

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Do you guys even have an idea about what "most" and "usually" here?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I like maou gakuin downgrade

Epic

 

[Bernkastelll]

I like maou gakuin downgrade

Your opinion is so stupid that makes me laugh and cry at once, thats not even a reason to downgrade

 

[Worthless]

Give example or quote, or it'd be dishonesty since there is no way that "all of creation" does only refer to one universe in multiversal cosmology, unless the verses you were talking about have only one universe within them. all of creation is one of the most blatant way to describe all of existence, whole cosmology. Anos could destroy worlds, his ability can affect the deeper layers. "Venuzdonoa has no feat to affect the Silver Sea!" when the statement does say that it can destroy all of the creation, or everything, is as worth as an AOE fallacy, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of an absent. To say all of creation here does not mean all of creation, you need proofs.

Again that's an NLF. All of creations usually only refers to a one universe, sure some refers to all universe but not In this case, since It's kinda doubting if he can really destroy including the silver sea.

The OP already pointed it, that anos made the "all of creation" statement before the silver sea was introduced. Insanely vague, and most of it is an assumption that leads to no limit fallacy. This'll just repeat over and over, so I'm out. I still think it's an NLF.

And yes Multiverse does exist in the novel I've mentioned.

 

[AncientKing95]

My bad.

If you can provide me with multiple quotes, not just the parts that support your argument, that proves that during the entire series world only most of the time refers to planet, then I'll try and debunk that.

Remember to add the entire quote and give a chapter number, so you can't commit any more fallacies.

Can we acknowledge (that at the very least) no-one else aside from the Gods Pre-Arc 9 knew what the Blue Dome of the Gods or the infinite black skies were? Which make up a large chunk of the universe not including the world. Now, take every instance a non-God character Pre-Arc 9 used the term world. What do you think they were referring to?

 

[Dereck03]

I like maou gakuin downgrade

Well, I'll go to all verse threads and comment that I agree because I like drowngrade too, even if i don't see the necessary arguments

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

I like maou gakuin downgrade