Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Exactly. World was used alongside Sun and stars, not including them. Indicating that they're seperate things.

Not quite since he stated that Gili Eliam Naviem would destroy the "world" after he had already affected the stars and the Sun, which is implying universe

 

[imZer0Null]

It hasn't done anything special or demonstrated any feats in the Silver Sea.

It was stated to be a deep magic.

 

[Dereck03]

The creator of this thread basically went away and left us fighting here..... fuuny

 

[Musaabu02]

Exactly, "Worlds" do not always refer to universes, but in this case they do.

Please prove it or its baseless headcanon
Cause you can't refer to world in a verse that it always refers to universe. Everything is context.

 

[Dereck03]

Please prove it or its baseless headcanon
Cause you can't refer to world in a verse that it always refers to universe. Everything is context.

What I said was in the verse "world" refers to universe and there is an explanation to corroborate it, because practically many take for granted that "world" does not refer to universe but to planet.

 

[Musaabu02]

Not quite since he stated that Gili Eliam Naviem would destroy the "world" after he had already affected the stars and the Sun, which is implying universe

This is definitely universe but someone telling me world whenever stated in context means universe is balant caps tbh.
As world can mean different thing in context no matter how powerful or complex a verse is.

 

[AncientKing95]

Not quite since he stated that Gili Eliam Naviem would destroy the "world" after he had already affected the stars and the Sun, which is implying universe

Here's the thing: it doesn't. He destroyed "traces" of the Sun and Stars, not the Sun and Stars themselves. Another thing, the ground beneath his feat was still there after enduring 6 steps while the "Sun and Stars" were destroyed in a single step. So even if they were actually the Sun and Stars, that doesn't disprove that world just meant world. If he were referring to destroying the entire universe, then surely the planet he was on should've already been destroyed.

 

[imZer0Null]

Please prove it or its baseless headcanon
Cause you can't refer to world in a verse that it always refers to universe. Everything is context.

The kanji for world can also be translated to universe. There are various statements where Earth is used to refer to the planet, and very few where world is used to refer to the planet.

 

[Musaabu02]

What I said was in the verse "world" refers to universe and there is an explanation to corroborate it, because practically many take for granted that "world" does not refer to universe but to planet.

And what explanation correlate with that scan that proves does thousands of worlds stated = universe and not planet.

 

[Musaabu02]

Dosent change the fact world used varies based on the context.

The kanji for world can also be translated to universe. There are various statements where Earth is used to refer to the planet, and very few where world is used to refer to the planet.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Here's the thing: it doesn't. He destroyed "traces" of the Sun and Stars, not the Sun and Stars themselves. Another thing, the ground beneath his feat was still there after enduring 6 steps while the "Sun and Stars" were destroyed in a single step. So even if they were actually the Sun and Stars, that doesn't disprove that world just meant world.

That world created by Militia is durable enough to take his first steps, as it could also handle his Engil Grona Angdroa

 

[Dereck03]

And what explanation correlate with that scan that proves does thousands of worlds stated = universe and not planet.

The scan specifies that it can destroy hundreds of thousands of worlds, and here "world" does not refer to "planet". but to a universe

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

And people still missing the Abyss feat

 

[Dereck03]

And people still missing the Abyss feat

I took it into account, but nobody talks about it because technically it is a clear 2-B feat.

 

[AncientKing95]

That world created by Militia is durable enough to take his first steps, as it could also handle his Engil Grona Angdroa

That still doesn't change the fact that the planet itself wasn't destroyed. If it was destroyed and Anos still said "world" after, then you could definitely say that world refers to universe. But it wasn't. Even before Pre-Silver Sea, the author had also used the term universe instead of world at times, implying that they're different.

In all honesty, the description should be changed from World=Universe to Bubble=Universe. Because it's likely that the term world is only used to refer to the world inside a bubble, not the bubble itself.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

That still doesn't change the fact that the planet itself wasn't destroyed.

It wasnt destroyed because its dura is superior than the usual universe destruction, like I said before. Unless you want to say that Militia created a planet with universe dura (?)

 

[Dereck03]

the planet itself wasn't destroyed.

wouldn't it be illogical for him to destroy the surface until the seventh step? ,if im not wrong anos needs to be on a surface or be able to walk to untie Gili Eliam Naviem

 

[AncientKing95]

It wasnt destroyed because its dura is superior than the usual universe destruction, like I said before. Unless you want to say that Militia created a planet with universe dura.

Here's the thing, even if the planet had universal durability it doesn't make a difference. The rest of the universe AKA the Azure of the Gods and the infinite black skies weren't affected by the Nirvana Seven Steps that Anos unleashed.

Another thing, everything that Anos destroyed in the Trace World were literally traces, AKA remnants of history. Anos didn't literally destroy the sun and stars.

Another another thing. When it was said that the Sun of Destruction was about to destroy the world, the planet was the only thing damaged. Nothing else.

 

[AncientKing95]

wouldn't it be illogical for him to destroy the surface until the seventh step? ,if im not wrong anos needs to be on a surface or be able to walk to untie Gili Eliam Naviem

Anos doesn't need to be on a flat surface. He can activate it whenever and however he wants. Which is proven when, in some of his fights, he "takes a step" by kicking his enemy.

 

[AncientKing95]

The kanji for world can also be translated to universe. There are various statements where Earth is used to refer to the planet, and very few where world is used to refer to the planet.

Earth isn't used to refer to planet, it's used to refer to the ground.

 

[AncientKing95]

Here's the thing about Venuzdonoa, it has only destroyed things like weapons, concepts, people(etc.) not worlds, universes or layers. Nothing about what it has done so far indicates that it could destroy the entire Silver Sea.

 

[imZer0Null]

Earth isn't used to refer to planet, it's used to refer to the ground.

It's used to refer to the planet as well.

 

[imZer0Null]

If you think that world means planet, the burden falls on you to provide proof that it actually refers to a planet and not a universe, since most of the time world actually refers to a universe.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I disagree with 2-B Anos but the reasonings presented to downgrade him here is not the same

 

[AncientKing95]

If you think that world means planet, the burden falls on you to provide proof that it actually refers to a planet and not a universe, since most of the time world actually refers to a universe.

UNO REVERSE BITCH (): The burden is on you to provide proof that world usually refers to universe. Because it doesn't. And none of the points that you've brought up this far prove that it does.

 

[imZer0Null]

UNO REVERSE BITCH (): The burden is on you to provide proof that world usually refers to universe. Because it doesn't. And none of the points that you've brought up this far prove that it does.

:|

No... In the context of the entire series, world has mostly referred to universe. We have also provided proof it means universe. You're the one who should provide proof that it actually means planet.

 

[AncientKing95]

:|
No... In the context of the entire series, world has mostly referred to universe. We have also provided proof it means universe. You're the one who should provide proof that it actually means planet.

It should've been clear that world refers to planet when the Sun of Ruin was about to destroy the world, and after only the world was split into four we see that everything aside from the planet like the Azure of the Gods for instance was unaffected. You know what? If you truly have proof and evidence that world normally refers to universe, summarize your key points in order and I'll debunk all of them.

 

[imZer0Null]

Okay. Read this entire blog and tell me how world usually refers to planet.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Hmmmm, interesting...

 

[imZer0Null]

AncientKing trying to downgrade the verse again...

All translations for Venuzdonoa's description says something like "Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are".
People have argued before that Anos didn't know the Silver Sea exists when he made this statement, meaning it isn't part of the creation he was talking about, but that's irrelevant since Anos said "...regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are", meaning regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite he thought creation was, Venuzdonoa would still be able to destroy it.
People have also argued before that because of the difference between layers Venuzdonoa wouldn't be able to destroy all things in creation, but that's also irrelevant since Venuzdonoa has functioned perfectly fine in deeper layers and is actually stated to be a deep magic.



Venuzdonoa has no actual feat of destroying the Silver Sea, but it has statements that says it can.

I haven't received valid counter arguments for this yet.

 

[Ionliosite]

The hell is even this thread? The level of reasoning is here basically "Cell didn't destroy the solar system so he can't be 4-B", Venuz was above Anos even when he already could destroy worlds, there's really no way to argue Venuz's statement doesn't extent to that.

 

[AncientKing95]

"A term often used in the verse, with various meanings. While world usually refers to a universe, there are certain times when it also refers to a planet, though this is rare. The Author of Maou Gakuin usually uses the word Earth to refer to a planet, and thus it's completely safe to assume that world means universe in the various different statements, unless specifically stated to be otherwise or contradicted by other statements." - Since this part doesn't have any evidence behind it and is only a claim, there isn't really much to debunk. However, I can say that this is wrong and is just your headcanon.

"Above the sky and below the earth, a black dome stretches out. What was added around the world drawn on the blackboard was a black sky, a black dome." - The sky and the earth together is acknowledged as the world. If the earth itself refers to the world, then instead of saying, "What was added around the world. . ." it would've said, "What was added around the world and the sky. . .". Therefore, the use of earth just refers to the ground. Another thing, this black sky that is infinite in size is described as "added around the world" not "part of the world'.


'The farther you go from this earth, the more the black dome is stretched and the closer you get to nothingness. It is here, in this near-infinite sky, that the divine world is located. A 'Blue Dome of the Gods' is added to the black dome.' - Just as the black sky isn't part of the world itself, the Blue Dome of the Gods that is part of the black sky isn't part of it either. Which means we have three separate spaces: the world itself, the Blue Dome of the Gods, and the black sky. Since neither the Blue Dome of the Gods or the black sky are a part of the world but reside in the same bubble, we can conclude that they can be considered the rest of the universe. If this is the case, then the world is simply what one would normally think of when the term world is used, AKA the planet. It's not uncommon whatsoever for world to be used instead of planet in various forms of media.


"'This is what we call the countless dark bubbles floating in the Silver Sea. It is said that all worlds begin with bubbles. Even the deeper worlds, located in the depths of this ocean, was one bubble in the beginning." - "It is said that all worlds begin with bubbles". Look closely at that statement. All worlds begin with bubbles, not all worlds are bubbles. Sure, bubbles can also be referred to as worlds, but worlds can refer to the planet as well. In this case, it's quite clear that it refers to the planet. If not, then it'd be saying something entirely redundant like, "It is said that all bubbles begin with bubbles." They can clearly be different things. World has never once referred to universe. World has either referred to the planet, or the bubble which qualifies as a universe. This being the case, it eliminates the possibility that world referred to universe instead of the planet in this scenario. As the author has also used the term universe itself, it's clear that he doesn't use world to refer to universe.


There are many layers in the Silver Sea, and there are countless bubbles in each layer, and there is an infinite sky in each bubble. There, it stretches on endlessly with no end, and it is where that world's God is located. Each god has its own world, and there is a deeper world, the world of the Lord God or the abyssal world. - After this part, "There are many layers in the Silver Sea, and there are countless bubbles in each layer, and there is an infinite sky in each bubble." everything referred to is something within the bubble. With that cleared out of the way, it'll be easier to explain. "There, it stretches on endlessly with no end, and it is where that world's God is located.", this would be referring to the Blue Dome of the Gods. So seeing this statement afterward, "Each god has its own world, and there is a deeper world, the world of the Lord God or the abyssal world", since everything mentioned is within the bubble, the "Each god has its own world. . ." refers to the planet that all the races aside from the divine race reside on while "there is a deeper world, the world of the Lord God or the abyssal world" refers to the Blue Dome of the Gods, as that is where all/most of the Gods normally reside. So, once more, if the "deeper world, the world of the Lord God. . ." obviously refers to the Blue Dome of the Gods, then the regular world is just the planet.

What we know is that Pre-Silver Sea, nobody from the Militia World, not even Militia herself knew of the existence of the bubble that they resided in, much less the Silver Sea. So when they used the term world, it wasn't referring to the entire bubble that qualifies as a universe. As it's been made clear that the largest part of the universe are the infinite black skies (as well as the Blue Dome of the Gods that reside in them), and that the infinite black skies and the world aren't one and the same, we know for certain that the term 'world' can refer to the planet. Context-wise, it also makes sense that 'world' refers to planet the majority of the time.

P.S: Make sure to click the 'Click to expand' part as that is where the bulk of my evidence and debunking resides.

 

[AncientKing95]

The hell is even this thread? The level of reasoning is here basically "Cell didn't destroy the solar system so he can't be 4-B", Venuz was above Anos even when he already could destroy worlds, there's really no way to argue Venuz's statement doesn't extent to that.

It's not that I don't think that Venuzdonoa can destroy worlds, it's that I don't think that it can destroy the entire Silver Sea. And honestly, I highly doubt that Anos is capable of doing so, even taking into consideration that he's still holding back some power.

 

[AncientKing95]

Venuzdonoa has no actual feat of destroying the Silver Sea, but it has statements that says it can.

It doesn't have statements that say it can, that's the thing. It can only destroy something no matter how eternal or infinite in the Militia World. It isn't a matter of "well, regardless of the difference in layers and the size of the Silver Sea infinite is still infinite lmao 360 no-scope", it's that the idea itself of it being able to destroy anything no matter how infinite turning (imZer0)Null. You can't use a statement that Anos made Pre-Silver Sea and say that it applies even in the Silver Sea. In the first place, we can't even use the fact that it hasn't been shown to be any weaker in the Silver Sea to be an argument that it can destroy the entire Silver Sea because we haven't ever seen it at max power in the Militia World. In order for anything to be proved on either side of the argument, we would've had to seen Venuzdonoa at it's max power in the Militia World, and then have seen Venuzdonoa at it's max power in the Silver Sea. Since Anos hasn't tried to use Venuzdonoa to destroy the entire Militia World, and he hasn't tried to use Venuzdonoa to destroy the entire Silver Sea, we can't determine what it's really capable of. It's just that, imo, it wouldn't fit context-wise if Venuzdonoa could destroy the entire Silver Sea. Like, at all.

What I'm trying to say is, since we've never seen how powerful Venuzdonoa truly is in the Militia World, you can't just up and say that since Venuzdonoa hasn't shown itself to be any weaker in the rest of the Silver Sea that means the statement of it being able to destroy anything no matter how eternal or infinite is still applicable. Again, we'd need to compare Venuzdonoa at it's most powerful in the Militia World to it at it's most powerful in the rest of the Silver Sea.

So as of right now, it's more likely that Venuzdonoa is functioning at more power in the Silver Sea than it did in the Militia World, but when it functions at it's most powerful it still won't be able to destroy the entire Silver Sea.

 

[imZer0Null]

Okay. So you couldn't prove that world usually means planet after all...

Context-wise, it also makes sense that 'world' refers to planet the majority of the time.

No it doesn't... Anos has "World-destroying magic" that he even used Pre-Silver Sea, and those spells are all capable of at least destroying a single space-time continuum. Are you trying to tell me these spells are actually planet destroying spells, when they literally have feats of destroying stuff with universal durability?

The following statement was made Pre-Silver Sea and can be found in the blog:

The various laws that make up the world, or the power of the gods that keep these laws normal. There are various orders such as “time”, “creation”, and “destruction”, and the same number of gods control them.

Are you trying to tell me that world means planet here? That laws and concepts that make up the world are actually just laws and concepts that maintain a planet?

Also, Venuzdonoa's description literally says "Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are", meaning how strong, eternal or infinite Anos thought creation was is irrelevant, since he can destroy it regardless of those factors.

 

[imZer0Null]

And for the last time, Venuzdonoa has been stated to be a deep magic.

"'A sword that cuts shadows and turns them into magic circles-no. This is magic that disturbs order.'

Kostoria immediately discovers the characteristics of Venuzdonoa and approaches its abyss.

'We use the power of the god of destruction to build the technique. No. It's just a seal to control the power. The essence of magic is deeper and deeper.'"

- WN Chapter 527

 

[AncientKing95]

Okay. So you couldn't prove that world usually means planet after all...

This statement was made Pre-Silver Sea and can be found in the blog:


Are you trying to tell me that world means planet here? That laws and concepts that make up the world are actually just laws and concepts that maintain a planet?

Also, Venuzdonoa's description literally says "Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, regardless of how strong, eternal or infinite they are", meaning how strong, eternal or infinite Anos thought creation was is irrelevant, since he can destroy it regardless of those factors.

So you're just going to ignore every single point I've made in my post then? I've already provided proof that more often than not, 'world' refers to planet. Also yes, I am telling you that the laws and concepts that make up the world refer to the planet. I'm not sure why you find that so hard to believe. It's already been established that within a bubble resides the infinite black skies which are literally just black skies that take up a lot of space, the Blue Dome of the Gods where the majority of the Gods who control the various concepts that make up the world reside, and then the 'world' AKA planet that all of the non-divine races live on that functions due to the concepts and laws controlled by the Gods.
I have no idea why you find it so hard to believe that world can often refer to planet. It's even harder to believe that you've read the series and even with context still think that world always refers to universe.

 

[imZer0Null]

.

You have yet to provide proof that world usually refers to planet.

Also, if you honestly think laws and concepts that make up the world refers to laws and concepts that maintain a planet then I'm not debating you anymore.

 

[AncientKing95]

You have yet to provide proof that world usually means planet.

You can't actually be serious right now, did you not read my comment? Did you not click the 'Click to expand' part? Or did you still click and read through it and still not think that it was proof?

 

[AncientKing95]

Also, I don't see what your point about Anos' world-destroying magic is. It has never been shown to destroy an entire bubble.