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Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) VS Gaara (New Era) (14-11-0) (GRACE)

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Well, he did use it on a saibamen that was freshily made(they werent fighing, yes, but that was his preffered method to clean out the trash)but other than that no
Eh, the Saibaman had already fought.
Vegeta only used this attack on cui but only after sending him to the air.However its worth noting that the both of them hated each other and cui was trashtalking him, which probally led to vegeta taking a more cruel route to finish cui off
This is accurate.
I think that if vegeta's deems gaara as a waste of time, he would give him the saibamen treatment,because unlike cui vegeta doesnt have any personal beef with gaara, so he will just go for the more simple and "peaceful" route
Well, one might assume he would, but he absolutely had beef with that Saibaman. Nonetheless, which of their attacks would hit first(especially considering Gaara is pissed.)
So, basically its a flip of a coin, but in both situations gaara is ******?
Since I don't care enough about the blutz wave arguments, I'm going back to Gaara LS stomp, Vegeta can just have his mouth held shut instantly.
 
Regarding Dirty Fireworks, Vegeta only uses it against someone he knows is much weaker than him. Vegeta does have his scouter, and he can read Gaara's power level and compare it to his own. The scouter iirc works by reading someone's ki intensity, and give it a numeral value.

Using verse equalization, this would mean the scouter would read Gaara's Chakra intensity. Gaara's sand is entirely moved and powered by his Chakra, so if he tried to read Gaara's PL, he might actually read a power level much higher than his own even though Gaara is physically trash.

Tbh, this is a bit of a losing situation for Gaara here whether the scouter shows Gaara's normal PL (which would be less than 300) or Gaara's sand PL (which would over 45000). If the former, Vegeta just uses dirty fireworks. If the latter, Vegeta immediately busts out the artificial moon.

I think it’s possible for the scouter to analyze both the chakra within the sand and the chakra used on the physical body.
 
He just has to cover Vegeta, who has lower LS than him iirc
Covering vegeta with sand wont work, the blutz waves can still penetrate sand as its just radiation. Even if Gaara can restrain him for a moment, Vegeta is 4 times stronger and can still use his energy attacks as an Oozaru, he'll just blast out of the sand and one shot Gaara, who aside from being massively weaker (even with sand), Vegeta's energy spam means he can't avoid all of his attacks, even if Gaara is still somehow faster after the Oozaru transformation
Vegeta tends to announce his moves and what they will do.
That's PIS and only just used to narrate the events of the story via exposition. Not to mention he was doing this during the fight with Goku where he was trying to show superiority over Kakarot's low class status. Against a ninja who is essentially a nobody to him, as well as someone who uses tactics which can be seen as cheat and unfair to someone like Vegeta, he isn't going to be telling Gaara every single thing he does. At most he'll just insult him over his inferior power and lack of warrior pride.

EDIT: Also im pretty not every single attack he did was explained by Vegeta, save for the Galick Gun scene (which was done for drama) as well as the Oozaru transformation (which was again done for drama as well as Vegeta gloating over Kakarot's inferiority)
 
Covering vegeta with sand wont work, the blutz waves can still penetrate sand as its just radiation. Even if Gaara can restrain him for a moment, Vegeta is 4 times stronger and can still use his energy attacks as an Oozaru, he'll just blast out of the sand and one shot Gaara, who aside from being massively weaker (even with sand), Vegeta's energy spam means he can't avoid all of his attacks, even if Gaara is still somehow faster after the Oozaru transformation
He can't send out energy blasts when being held still. Also, as an Oozaru, he heavily favors physical attacks.
That's PIS and only just used to narrate the events of the story via exposition. Not to mention he was doing this during the fight with Goku where he was trying to show superiority over Kakarot's low class status. Against a ninja who is essentially a nobody to him, as well as someone who uses tactics which can be seen as cheat and unfair to someone like Vegeta, he isn't going to be telling Gaara every single thing he does. At most he'll just insult him over his inferior power and lack of warrior pride.
No, the issue is that if he does that even once, he's left open to attack. And the power ball is one that he does announce, it's his ace in the hole.
I think it’s possible for the scouter to analyze both the chakra within the sand and the chakra used on the physical body.
Agree
 
He can't send out energy blasts when being held still. Also, as an Oozaru, he heavily favors physical attacks.
...no. No that is not true. At all. I mentioned this earlier. Plus characters have been shown to release bursts of ki aura which blows everything away from them. Multiple times in fact.
No, the issue is that if he does that even once, he's left open to attack. And the power ball is one that he does announce, it's his ace in the hole.
...again, PIS, its done for the sake of exposition and drama. Also it is not as slow as that anime makes it out to be. It can actually be much faster.
Also even if it does leave him open, Vegeta is not dumb enough to not realise that and can plan himself accordingly, especially with a tricky fighter like Gaara. He's a warrior with decades of combat experience, he's not Nappa.
 
...no. No that is not true. At all. I mentioned this earlier.
He literally had to push his arms upward to do that.
...again, PIS, its done for the sake of exposition and drama.
1. You mean CIS
2. No, Vegeta's just a dramatic type of bitch
He still has to:
1. Move to throw it
2. Transform
Also even if it does leave him open, Vegeta is not dumb enough to not realise that and can plan himself accordingly, especially with a tricky fighter like Gaara. He's a warrior with decades of combat experience, he's not Nappa.
I guess so
 
He literally had to push his arms upward to do that.
True, but its not a necessity. The one that vegeta did is simply a variant of the Kiai technique, which essentially the same technique but with multiple method of releasing that energy, that can occur via screaming, through the eyes, and even through the entire body. Plus there has been multiple times shown where characters can release explosions of energy simply just by powering up.

That being said, on its own I wouldn't entirely say its a guarantee that Vegeta could escape since it requires Ki to use and he could run out if he overuses it, but I reckon that with Kiai plus his natural flight, Gaara's gonna have a hard time sealing or restraining Vegeta as its much easier for him to seal targets on the ground, rather than in the air. Not to mention it requires Gaara to use his own charkra reserves to manipulate large amounts of sand, meaning that attempting to restrain Vegeta will drain him, possible even more so due to his technically weaker stamina (at least compared to Vegeta).
1. You mean CIS
2. No, Vegeta's just a dramatic type of bitch
Its the only time we ever see Vegeta actually call out his attacks, as in later saga's including the Namek saga (where he's essentially the same but just stronger) vegeta doesnt call out any of his attacks whatsoever.
He still has to:
1. Move to throw it
2. Transform
Fair enough, but....
Also even if it does leave him open, Vegeta is not dumb enough to not realise that and can plan himself accordingly, especially with a tricky fighter like Gaara. He's a warrior with decades of combat experience, he's not Nappa.
 
I think how this battle will start depends on what power level Vegeta reads.

"Hmph. Just another weakling." scenario. If Vegeta's scouter reads a very weak Power Level.. (Gaara's physical body)
Vegeta immediately uses Dirty Fireworks on Gaara, seeing him as just another weakling that isn't even worth fighting against. Gaara either immediately dies. Or his sand manages to block Dirty Fireworks due to instinctive reaction. If the former, Vegeta wins. But if the latter, Vegeta uses Dirty fireworks again or one of his more powerful energy blasts. Which will be blocked again. Vegeta gets perplexed, and just fights Gaara normally. In which he will get wrecked, not a single strike or energy attack he launches will be able to penetrate Gaara's shield. Then Gaara can simply restrain him with his sand like he did with Fused Momoshiki (someone who is more than twice as strong as Vegeta here btw) in the anime, or annihilate him with high speed sand projectiles. If Vegeta evades all of that, he will launch the artificial moon and turn into a Great Ape, getting extremely angry due to being beaten and humiliated by a guy who's power level can't even breach 300. And that leads into the "Shit, I'm outmatched." scenario.

"Shit, I'm outmatched." scenario. Vegeta reads Gaara's sand power level, which will be nearly 50000.
Realizing Vegeta has no chance of winning against someone that powerful, Vegeta immediately launches the artificial moon. If Vegeta successfully transforms, Vegeta will be much stronger. However, this is not Super Saiyan, the transformation itself takes a decent amount of time. If Gaara realizes that Vegeta is trying to make himself stronger with the artificial moon, he can simply seal it with his sand constructs, but there's a good chance that Vegeta will try to prevent that even when transforming. Once he becomes a Great Ape, his attacks will be powerful enough to bust through Gaara's sand shield, if any of his attacks manages to hit Gaara, it's GG. But, Gaara has a few ways of evading it, he should be slightly faster, more agile, and much smaller, allowing him to evade Vegeta's attacks, he can also make clones made out of sand to trick Vegeta while he can hide or evade. Gaara has no knowledge of Saiyan physiology, so he wouldn't know that the tail is essential to the great ape transformation. What he does know is that the moon like construct his opponent just launched gives him a lot of power, so he can try seal that, while hiding. If done successfully, Gaara can win here, and Vegeta will be much weaker after expending a good chunk of his energy to create the Power Ball.
 
True, but its not a necessity. The one that vegeta did is simply a variant of the Kiai technique,
Is it?
which essentially the same technique but with multiple method of releasing that energy, that can occur via screaming,
Only 4-B or higher used this one.
Only people that are H5A or higher have used this one.
This is literally from Jiren
and even through the entire body.
This one is a good example
Plus there has been multiple times shown where characters can release explosions of energy simply just by powering up.
Have they been able to power up while restrained?
That being said, on its own I wouldn't entirely say its a guarantee that Vegeta could escape since it requires Ki to use and he could run out if he overuses it, but I reckon that with Kiai plus his natural flight, Gaara's gonna have a hard time sealing or restraining Vegeta as its much easier for him to seal targets on the ground,
Eh, he just has to put sand around him to restrain him.
rather than in the air. Not to mention it requires Gaara to use his own charkra reserves to manipulate large amounts of sand, meaning that attempting to restrain Vegeta will drain him, possible even more so due to his technically weaker stamina (at least compared to Vegeta).
I mean, maybe? Gaara can fight for like, an entire war, and not get legitimately tired until a guy who could blitz and overpower him showed up.
 
Oh yeah I forgot to mention. Gaara has a pretty good stamina advantage against Vegeta here. Gaara was leading the Fourth Division as a Commander and was regularly fighting in the front lines against other top tiers like the previous Kages. Then when Madara shows up, he had to fight 5 of Madara's Susano'os at once for hours, (I think it's from late afternoon to night time).

Saiyan Saga Vegeta's stamina at this point probably isn't as good.
 
Oh yeah I forgot to mention. Gaara has a pretty good stamina advantage against Vegeta here. Gaara was leading the Fourth Division as a Commander and was regularly fighting in the front lines against other top tiers like the previous Kages. Then when Madara shows up, he had to fight 5 of Madara's Susano'os at once for hours, (I think it's from late afternoon to night time).

Saiyan Saga Vegeta's stamina at this point probably isn't as good.
We really need to separate keys for stamina
 
First of all HOLY ******* SHIT SLEND STOP REPLYING EVERYTHING WITH ONE OR TWO WORDS. IM NOT GOING TO KEEP REPLYING TO ONE WORD STATEMENTS

second of all, I already explained why Vegeta can break out of sand. You are repeating the same ******* statement over and over no matter what arguement I make with no enforcment of what reasons you give for saying beyond just repeating what you said. You seem to perfectly fine with ridiculing my statements, but there's nothing that you are saying that Vegeta can't get out what is basically ordinary sand, even if it is controlled by Gaara.

Thirdly, my whole reasoning for explaining the multiple versions of the Kiai thing was to show THATS ITS ALL JUST THE SAME TECHNIQUE. It doesn't matter who did it or what tier they are, its the same technique done with multiple variations. I was trying to show that Vegeta can still blast out of it without requiring his arms ffs.

FOURTHLY
Oh yeah I forgot to mention. Gaara has a pretty good stamina advantage against Vegeta here. Gaara was leading the Fourth Division as a Commander and was regularly fighting in the front lines against other top tiers like the previous Kages. Then when Madara shows up, he had to fight 5 of Madara's Susano'os at once for hours, (I think it's from late afternoon to night time).

Saiyan Saga Vegeta's stamina at this point probably isn't as good.
Vegeta's stamina is better than Gaara's because the health and power of the wielder correlate to the amount of Ki they possess, and its been shown that characters can lose energy when being hit by attacks, as Gohan showed when he lost half his power shielding Vegeta from Cell in the Cell Saga.

When Vegeta fought the Z-fighters in the Saiyan Saga, he took multiple high level attacks that not only injured him, but also should have drained out a lot of his Ki. By all accounts, he should have been drained after taking the blast of Goku's X4 Kamehameha, which was more powerful than Vegeta at his maximum, but he not only took that plus the spirit bomb explosion, but he still had enough energy to make a Powerball for his Oozaru transformation as well as a Kienzan to cut off Gohan's tail. Even when he was crushed by the detransforming Gohan, he still had enough strength to make it back to his pod on his own.

On the other hand, while Chakra itself is similar to Ki in terms of it being life energy, the difference between the two is that Chakra doesn't fully correlate to physical health or power, as Kakashi was shown to be physically superior to Naruto in the early series despite the latter having larger chakra reserves than Kakashi could ever reach. Its possible to be injured while still having full chakra reserves and its possible to still be healthy while having little chakra left to peform ninjutsu.

On that note, Gaara being able to fight for hours at a time can be taken as him being physically strong rather than his chakra reserves being able to last for multiple hours. It also makes sense considering Gaara doesn't need chakra all the time to control his defense due to him being protected by his Mom's chakra energy, but he does need energy to manipulate large reserves of sand around him.

So what im trying to say is that Vegeta's Ki > Gaara's Chakra
 
I agree Vegeta would probably be able to bust out of Gaara's sand using Kiai. But he'll have to burn a lot of Ki to use it since Gaara has a 150 ZT planet level sand. With a 2.5x disadvantage, every time he needs to break out he will need to use a massive amount of Ki since this sand is about as durable as KKx8 Goku.
 
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This fight is actually interesting.

But considering Gaara himself and not he's sand gives off a power especially a week one. Vegeta especially this one is just going to use dirty fireworks.
But he definitely loses if he doesn't start with that.

Vegeta FRA
 
Vegeta has used dirty fireworks a grand total of twice in the series, one of which was against a Saibamen that was already losing and the other which was against someone he hated
 
But, Gaara has a few ways of evading it, he should be slightly faster, more agile, and much smaller, allowing him to evade Vegeta's attacks,
Vegeta combat speed is multiplied by 10.How is gaara gonna react to his movements?


If vegeta fires a beam its pretty much a guaranteed blitz
 
On that note, Gaara being able to fight for hours at a time can be taken as him being physically strong rather than his chakra reserves being able to last for multiple hours. It also makes sense considering Gaara doesn't need chakra all the time to control his defense due to him being protected by his Mom's chakra energy, but he does need energy to manipulate large reserves of sand around him.

So what im trying to say is that Vegeta's Ki > Gaara's Chakra
I don't really agree with this considering that Gaara is constantly using sand techniques throughout the fight. Blocking Madara's susanoo strikes, saving the rest of the Kages from them, trying to restrain Madara somehow. Flying everywhere. He's constantly using his sand.
Vegeta combat speed is multiplied by 10.How is gaara gonna react to his movements?


If vegeta fires a beam its pretty much a guaranteed blitz
No, Great Ape is accepted as a 10 times power multiplier here, but not as a 10 times speed multiplier.

Great Ape is not Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, mainly because those two forms I mentioned don't turn you into a giant monkey. I do think it increases speed at least by a bit to compensate for the larger mass but definitely not 10 times, he would blitz weakened Base Goku if that was the case and Goku was still capable of dodging his strikes.
 
I don't really agree with this considering that Gaara is constantly using sand techniques throughout the fight. Blocking Madara's susanoo strikes, saving the rest of the Kages from them, trying to restrain Madara somehow. Flying everywhere. He's constantly using his sand.
Its listed as a major weakness of Gaara and one that will probably come up in the fight. With Vegeta being up in the air and having more direct and agile flight, Gaara will have to move large amounts of sand in order to attack him and/or seal him.
No, Great Ape is accepted as a 10 times power multiplier here, but not as a 10 times speed multiplier.

Great Ape is not Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, mainly because those two forms I mentioned don't turn you into a giant monkey. I do think it increases speed at least by a bit to compensate for the larger mass but definitely not 10 times, he would blitz weakened Base Goku if that was the case and Goku was still capable of dodging his strikes.
Power level's correlate with both speed and power though. The higher your power level, both the more tougher and faster you are.

I should also point out that Vegeta was also weakened as well, both from taking the brunt of the X4 Kamehameha and using the Power Ball to transform, so he was also considerably weakened. Yet he was still able to blitz Goku who used Kaioken to try and sneak attack Vegeta. I don't necassarily think that Vegeta becomes 10 times faster in this form, but I do think Vegeta's speed multiplies to some extent. Even if we lowball it and say that Vegeta's speed is increased by 2 times, that would still make him faster than Gaara and his defence that protects him from being hit. Not that it would really help as Vegeta is 4 times stronger than Gaara's strongest durability with his sand. And that's not even taking into account that Gaará's base durability is so weak that a single hit would kill him outright.

I didn't mention this earlier because I didn't think it necassary at the time, but while Gaara's abilties and area that he fights in gives him plenty of control over the battle field, Vegeta's plenty of destructive capabilities in the form of various Ki attacks and spam, and given that he was superior to Nappa who use a ki strike to level a whole city, Vegeta also brings a lot of battlefield control that would force Gaara to stay on his toes.

Also its much more easier for Vegeta to use ki attacks than it is for Gaara to use jutsu's. Not by a whole lot, but most jutsu's do require hand symbols that do take a small amount of time to do, and the ones that don't still require concentration and focus than what Dragon Ball Ki attacks require to use, especially once mastered. And considering Vegeta has been using Ki attacks all his life, I don't think he will be having an issue with that last bit.
 
Its listed as a major weakness of Gaara and one that will probably come up in the fight. With Vegeta being up in the air and having more direct and agile flight, Gaara will have to move large amounts of sand in order to attack him and/or seal him.
Hmm, fair point. But I should point out that large chakra consumption only really applies when Gaara uses a ton of sand. And he really doesn't need that much to catch Vegeta, as shown here, and this is against someone faster and over twice as powerful as Vegeta. Also Gaara is actually one of the faster Kages among the five, every other Kage except him and Naruto immediately get blitzed and one-shotted ny fused Momoshiki while Gaara's sand can react to his attacks and restrain him for a brief moment.

Also from the way the weakness section is written it seems to mostly apply to Part 1 to early Part 2 Gaara. Gaara no longer has Shukaku/One-Tail after the Kazekage Rescue Arc.
I should also point out that Vegeta was also weakened as well, both from taking the brunt of the X4 Kamehameha and using the Power Ball to transform, so he was also considerably weakened. Yet he was still able to blitz Goku who used Kaioken to try and sneak attack Vegeta.
Base Vegeta is stronger and faster than Base Goku, who needed Kaioken x3 to start overpowering Vegeta, so assuming they're weakened by a similar degree, Base Vegeta would still be able to slap away Goku. And while Vegeta is greatly weakened after that beam struggle and the power ball, Goku thrashed his entire body with Kaioken x4 to the point a friendly slap from Yajirobe made him yell in pain.

Also its much more easier for Vegeta to use ki attacks than it is for Gaara to use jutsu's. Not by a whole lot, but most jutsu's do require hand symbols that do take a small amount of time to do, and the ones that don't still require concentration and focus than what Dragon Ball Ki attacks require to use, especially once mastered. And considering Vegeta has been using Ki attacks all his life, I don't think he will be having an issue with that last bit.
Most of Gaara's sand abilities don't require hand signs after Part 2. He can move them just by using his mind or use hand motions for the bigger moves, the ones where a hand sign is required are the big sealing moves like the Grand Sand Mausoleum. His sand shield is completely automatic as long as he has enough sand and it doesn't seem to require much chakra either, considering its active at all times. And again, Gaara was fighting 5 of Madara's Susano'os for hours back during the War Arc. Considering Gaara is weak physically, he was only using sand moves throughout that fight, pretty big ones too considering he's dealing with Susano'os. I don't think stamina will be an issue here.
 
First of all HOLY ******* SHIT SLEND STOP REPLYING EVERYTHING WITH ONE OR TWO WORDS. IM NOT GOING TO KEEP REPLYING TO ONE WORD STATEMENTS
Stop replying with essays, it's a waste of time.
second of all, I already explained why Vegeta can break out of sand. You are repeating the same ******* statement over and over no matter what arguement I make with no enforcment of what reasons you give for saying beyond just repeating what you said. You seem to perfectly fine with ridiculing my statements, but there's nothing that you are saying that Vegeta can't get out what is basically ordinary sand, even if it is controlled by Gaara.
It isn't ordinary sand.
Thirdly, my whole reasoning for explaining the multiple versions of the Kiai thing was to show THATS ITS ALL JUST THE SAME TECHNIQUE. It doesn't matter who did it or what tier they are, its the same technique done with multiple variations. I was trying to show that Vegeta can still blast out of it without requiring his arms ffs.
Where is it stated to be Kiai?
Vegeta's stamina is better than Gaara's because the health and power of the wielder correlate to the amount of Ki they possess, and its been shown that characters can lose energy when being hit by attacks, as Gohan showed when he lost half his power shielding Vegeta from Cell in the Cell Saga.
Yes, your stamina decreases when injured, big whoop. That happens IRL too.
When Vegeta fought the Z-fighters in the Saiyan Saga, he took multiple high level attacks that not only injured him, but also should have drained out a lot of his Ki. By all accounts, he should have been drained after taking the blast of Goku's X4 Kamehameha, which was more powerful than Vegeta at his maximum, but he not only took that plus the spirit bomb explosion, but he still had enough energy to make a Powerball for his Oozaru transformation as well as a Kienzan to cut off Gohan's tail. Even when he was crushed by the detransforming Gohan, he still had enough strength to make it back to his pod on his own.

On the other hand, while Chakra itself is similar to Ki in terms of it being life energy, the difference between the two is that Chakra doesn't fully correlate to physical health or power, as Kakashi was shown to be physically superior to Naruto in the early series despite the latter having larger chakra reserves than Kakashi could ever reach. Its possible to be injured while still having full chakra reserves and its possible to still be healthy while having little chakra left to peform ninjutsu.
How is this good for Vegeta?
On that note, Gaara being able to fight for hours at a time can be taken as him being physically strong rather than his chakra reserves being able to last for multiple hours. It also makes sense considering Gaara doesn't need chakra all the time to control his defense due to him being protected by his Mom's chakra energy, but he does need energy to manipulate large reserves of sand around him.
He was using Chakra constantly to move around and maintain armor.
 
I don't really agree with this considering that Gaara is constantly using sand techniques throughout the fight. Blocking Madara's susanoo strikes, saving the rest of the Kages from them, trying to restrain Madara somehow. Flying everywhere. He's constantly using his sand.

No, Great Ape is accepted as a 10 times power multiplier here, but not as a 10 times speed multiplier.

Great Ape is not Kaio-ken or Super Saiyan, mainly because those two forms I mentioned don't turn you into a giant monkey. I do think it increases speed at least by a bit to compensate for the larger mass but definitely not 10 times, he would blitz weakened Base Goku if that was the case and Goku was still capable of dodging his strikes.

It could still keep up with Goku in Kaioken too
 
The amaterasu actually travels unlike dirty fireworks



Just further proof that amaterasu actually travels, sasuke wanted to hit raikage with it, the raikage dodged it and then the attack hitted the samurai who was in the way of its trajectory
This isn’t proof Amaterasu Travels.

In the scans you showed there’s literally no movement lines and no panel even suggesting movement lines for the jutsu.

So Amaterasu doesn’t travel.
 
Well it still makes it clear that it’s a projectile considering the manga wasn’t enough for ya
 
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