Upgrade for the Gods ability. Maou Gakuin

[KntolRicat]

put me also as someone who disagrees with the plot manipulation for the orders, but for probability and acausality seems fine

 

[GustiTalk12]

So what conclusion do we get from all of your debates?

 

[Tatsumi504]

My opinion is that I interpret the evidence presented as more likely to be a metaphor then Plot Manipulation. So basically the same as everyone else, why I felt I needed to add the disclaimer at the end that I had indeed read all the responses here, I know how things go here.

The issue is that only the thing about the world being a theater is metaphorical. The scan where "script/plot" is mentioned, is clearly not. This is the full context as provided by dereck03.

門の奥、光輝いていたデルゾゲードとエーベラストアンゼッタの輪郭がみるみる縮小していき、それは人型を象り始める。

「だめ……」

　ミーシャの声が響いた。

「戻りなさい……わたしの体でしょっ。言うことを聞きなさいっ……！」

　サーシャが叫ぶも、しかし、彼女たちは神の姿へと変わっていく。

　創造神ミリティアと破壊神アベルニユーへ。

『すべては世界の筋書き通り。デルゾゲードとエーベラストアンゼッタ。二つの城と融合すれば、それを取り返せると汝らは思ったのかもしれないが、それは私にとっても同じこと』

　ゆっくりと二人の指先が動く。

　ミーシャとサーシャは必死に抵抗しようとしているが、どうやらあちらの支配の方が幾分強いか。

『世界の歯車は、その神体に埋まっている。破壊神と創造神を奪い返そうとした彼女たちは、逆にその根源を奪われ、再び正しき秩序のしもべと化す』

　ゆっくりと二人の指先にて、魔法陣が描かれていく。

　＜創造の月＞と＜破滅の太陽＞めがけて。

Behind the gate, the shining outline of Delzogade and Eberlestein Anzetta shrinks rapidly, and it begins to resemble a human figure.

No. ......."

　Misha's voice rang out.

Go back,......, it's my body. Listen to me ......!

　Sasha cries out, but, however, the girls are transformed into their divine forms.

　They become Militia, the Creator God, and Averniou, the Destroyer God.

'All according to the world's plot. Delzogade and Aberlast Anzetta. You may have thought that by merging with the two castles, you could take them back, but it is the same for me.

　Slowly their fingertips move.

　Misha and Sasha are trying desperately to resist, but it seems that their control is somewhat stronger.

The gears of the world are buried in the body of that god. They tried to take back the God of Destruction and the God of Creation, but they were robbed of their roots and turned into servants of the righteous order once again.

　Slowly, a magic circle is drawn with their fingertips.

　＜Aimed at the Moon of Creation and the Sun of Doom.

Their arguments against this point being that plot in this case can also mean to plan/ scheme and does not necessarily refer to the plot in a story.

Here is the break down of the line its mentioned in.

すべては世の中の筋書き通り。
*Everything is as it should be, as the world should make sense.
*Everything is according to the world.
*Everything is according to the world's plot.

すべては世の中の
*It's all about the world
*All in the world
*Everything in the world

筋書き通り。
*As the plot goes.
*As the plot suggests.
*As per the plot.
*As the story goes.

Yeah, I don't know how you can see this and say it Could refer to "plan".

They're further trying to drive their point by saying eques is the world (not necessarily false but he is the world's will) and that he's referring to his plan but he does not refer to himself as the world when he speaks.

You can dismiss the theater statements as metaphorical, but this one clearly is not. Not to mention showings of fate manipulation being beyond what normal fate manipulation can do and said fate already being predetermined even before the world existed.

 

[Tatsumi504]

put me also as someone who disagrees with the plot manipulation for the orders, but for probability and acausality seems fine

How do you end up disagreeing with the one that seems right and agreed with the one that is wonky at best?

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

The issue is that only the thing about the world being a theater is metaphorical. The scan where "script/plot" is mentioned, is clearly not. This is the full context as provided by dereck03.

Their arguments against this point being that plot in this case can also mean to plan/ scheme and does not necessarily refer to the plot in a story.

Here is the break down of the line its mentioned in.

Yeah, I don't know how you can see this and say it Could refer to "plan".

They're further trying to drive their point by saying eques is the world (not necessarily false but he is the world's will) and that he's referring to his plan but he does not refer to himself as the world when he speaks.

You can dismiss the theater statements as metaphorical, but this one clearly is not. Not to mention showings of fate manipulation being beyond what normal fate manipulation can do and said fate already being predetermined even before the world existed.

Was neutral and slowly leaning to disagree with plot manip.
But this sounds legit.

Waiting for more input on this part.

 

[Everything12]

The issue is that only the thing about the world being a theater is metaphorical. The scan where "script/plot" is mentioned, is clearly not. This is the full context as provided by dereck03.

Their arguments against this point being that plot in this case can also mean to plan/ scheme and does not necessarily refer to the plot in a story.

Here is the break down of the line its mentioned in.

Yeah, I don't know how you can see this and say it Could refer to "plan".

They're further trying to drive their point by saying eques is the world (not necessarily false but he is the world's will) and that he's referring to his plan but he does not refer to himself as the world when he speaks.

You can dismiss the theater statements as metaphorical, but this one clearly is not. Not to mention showings of fate manipulation being beyond what normal fate manipulation can do and said fate already being predetermined even before the world existed.

Based off my understanding of the English language, my experience with fictional literature, and my knowledge of the Wiki's standards, that also can be interpreted as metaphors and that is how I interpret it.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Neutral on Plot Manipulation.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Based off my understanding of the English language, my experience with fictional literature, and my knowledge of the Wiki's standards, that also can be interpreted as metaphors and that is how I interpret it.

But you agree it is nowhere "plan"?

 

[Accelerator]

The issue is that only the thing about the world being a theater is metaphorical. The scan where "script/plot" is mentioned, is clearly not. This is the full context as provided by dereck03.

Their arguments against this point being that plot in this case can also mean to plan/ scheme and does not necessarily refer to the plot in a story.

Here is the break down of the line its mentioned in.

Yeah, I don't know how you can see this and say it Could refer to "plan".

They're further trying to drive their point by saying eques is the world (not necessarily false but he is the world's will) and that he's referring to his plan but he does not refer to himself as the world when he speaks.

You can dismiss the theater statements as metaphorical, but this one clearly is not. Not to mention showings of fate manipulation being beyond what normal fate manipulation can do and said fate already being predetermined even before the world existed.

*As the plot goes.
*As the plot suggests.
*As per the plot.
*As the story goes.
Because of those statements i'll agree with PM. I will check the chapters later and if i change my mind i'll let you know.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Based off my understanding of the English language, my experience with fictional literature, and my knowledge of the Wiki's standards, that also can be interpreted as metaphors and that is how I interpret it.

Alright, if that's the decision you've reached from your wealth of experience then I don't really know how else to convince you. We'd either have to wait for a 2nd opinion but I honestly don't want this thread getting any longer.
Ant would probably say the decision you've reached is okay to apply. No antagonism in this though.
One last thing though. I just wanna personally ask you and probably for future reference.
Do you think the points presented here are lacking compared to this?

Plot Manipulation (Ugo displays a level of transcendence against Sinbad and Aladdin's Multiverse, viewing the whole thing as fiction. To put it in his words in comparison to him Sinbad is merely "a protagonist of the story" (due to higher gods influence) and he is "the author" (of that story). He even goes as far as to call himself "omnipotent" in comparison to Aladdin's World. There's also scenes where Aladdin himself who was in the Sacred Palace viewed the lower worlds by reading them in stories.)

Also do you agree that changing the "plot" to "plan" here is wrong, just that plot in this case can still be a metaphor?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Based off my understanding of the English language, my experience with fictional literature, and my knowledge of the Wiki's standards, that also can be interpreted as metaphors and that is how I interpret it.

So you agree on changing the plot meaning to plan is wrong.

 

[Caduz213]

I still remain neutral on the hax plot, but I wonder how Eques being the world itself would plan something instead of just altering the history of things in their own way?

 

[Dog3352]

As I understand it, the disagreement comes from saying that when mentioning "plot" Eques mentions "plan", right? I have two questions:

First: Does Eques ever mention himself as "world"? And also third person? Does Eques mention himself like this?

Second: Is it mentioned in later or earlier chapters that Eques had a plan? Or that Eques had planned something for that moment? The disagreement would make more sense if this happened a lot in the novel.

"All according to the plot of the world."

If the first is answered with a no, it doesn't make sense a lot of things, the fact that he specifically mentions the world and not himself as "I" or something, this is more for him talking about the militia world.

And if no Eques plan has been mentioned in later or earlier chapters either, it makes even less sense.

I just wanted to comment on that.

 

[ImmortalDread]

As I understand it, the disagreement comes from saying that when mentioning "plot" Eques mentions "plan", right? I have two questions:

No he explicitly says plot or script, in every translation, we even checked the terms, and they all refer to “plot” as script.

 

[Everything12]

Do you think the points presented here are lacking compared to this?

I guess I wouldn't disagree with people arguing that it's not enough for Plot Manipulation.

Also do you agree that changing the "plot" to "plan" here is wrong, just that plot in this case can still be a metaphor?

Well I don't disagree to people reading the phrase in a way that allows them to substitute plot with plan based off it not changing the meaning they interpret the phrase as having.

 

[Dog3352]

No he explicitly says plot or script, in every translation, we even checked the terms, and they all refer to “plot” as script.

The translation is correct, but people are saying that he is saying that everything is going according to his plan or something, but for that and need to prove that he is really talking about plan. The fact that the word "plot" can mean both would prove nothing, as there would also have to be supporting evidence that proves that he is talking about "plan" and not "plot", and if there is no supporting evidence to prove it, I will just disagree.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The translation is correct, but people are saying that he is saying that everything is going according to his plan or something, but for that and need to prove that he is really talking about plan. The fact that the word "plot" can mean both would prove nothing, as there would also have to be supporting evidence that proves that he is talking about "plan" and not "plot", and if there is no supporting evidence to prove it, I will just disagree.

Where is that supporting evidence he is talking about the plan? And he explicitly said plan?
It seems you are also assuming and tending to pick the first definition even tho plot means script in all translations.

 

[Dog3352]

Where is that supporting evidence he is talking about the plan? And he explicitly said plan?
It seems you are also assuming and tending to pick the first definition even tho plot means script in all translations.

I think I misunderstood your comment. From your point of view does Eques seem to be mentioning plan or script/plot?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think I misunderstood your comment. From your point of view does Eques seem to be mentioning plan or script/plot?

scipt/plot

 

[Theglassman12]

3 pages already after a sleep? dear lord.

@Fixxed you haven't proven the theater and script part is literal. Prove to me that there literally exists a script and a theater that the gods manipulate that actually changes the narratives of their own worlds, because nothing in your scans proves that.

Yeah the sword that's said to erase memories doesn't really explain causality here at all.

@EldemadeDityjon Again, no proof that something like this is literal to a T, especially when they say "it seems like a play" as opposed to it being literal.

Where's the proof that they function on different laws? Because nothing in the scans implies that.

@Tatsumi504 you haven't proven shit that the order is the literal plot, prove that it is the actual plot instead of saying it is because nothing there is solid evidence. Also the script isn't enough when that's so vague and can mean anything.

 

[Dog3352]

scipt/plot

According to the translation Eques mentions "plot", but according to some people he is talking about his "plan", I would understand why if Eques mentioned "plan" at some point in the novel, more specifically in previous chapters or later, since to assume that Eques is mentioning plane would need context, I'll try to give an example with my primate mind.

In chapter 190 a character says: "Everything is going according to the plot."

And in chapter 188 he said to someone something like: "I have a plan for the future" or "I have a plot for the future"

So there would be a context of him saying it would be something like a plan, either using the word "plot" or "flat", you know what I mean?

 

[Tatsumi504]

I guess I wouldn't disagree with people arguing that it's not enough for Plot Manipulation.


Well I don't disagree to people reading the phrase in a way that allows them to substitute plot with plan based off it not changing the meaning they interpret the phrase as having.

Alright, thank you for your time.

 

[ImmortalDread]

According to the translation Eques mentions "plot", but according to some people he is talking about his "plan", I would understand why if Eques mentioned "plan" at some point in the novel, more specifically in previous chapters or later, since to assume that Eques is mentioning plane would need context, I'll try to give an example with my primate mind.

In chapter 190 a character says: "Everything is going according to the plot."

And in chapter 188 he said to someone something like: "I have a plan for the future" or "I have a plot for the future"

So there would be a context of him saying it would be something like a plan, either using the word "plot" or "flat", you know what I mean?

Flat?

 

[Dog3352]

Flat?

autocorrect

 

[ImmortalDread]

Flat?

May I get an accurate translation of this statement

And in chapter 188 he said to someone something like: "I have a plan for the future" or "I have a plot for the future"

If he says in all 3 statements “plot”, dang, I don't think he meant plan in any sense.

 

[Dog3352]

May I get an accurate translation of this statement

Plan

If he says in all 3 statements “plot”, dang, I don't think he meant plan in any sense.

I think so, I'm not sure, I'm not exactly an expert on this sort of thing.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Plan

He mentioned plan? I will translate it myself then.

 

[MehrasJB]

I don't think the plan thing is even important. We only need to prove that order=plot so if someone can get all the explanations from this thread and try to add more detail and post that. So the admins can evaluate it. It would be enough and try to avoid points that lead to misunderstanding.

 

[Dog3352]

He mentioned plan? I will translate it myself then.

In the novel? No, no plan is mentioned in the novel, I'm just giving an example, and because of the lack of mention of any Eques plan in Maou Gakuin's novel I'm not sure even if the word "plot" has the meaning of "plan ", there is nothing mentioned to "plan" in previous chapters of the novel.

 

[Tatsumi504]

@Tatsumi504 you haven't proven shit that the order is the literal plot, prove that it is the actual plot instead of saying it is because nothing there is solid evidence. Also the script isn't enough when that's so vague and can mean anything.

For starters, I wasn't trying to really prove anything, I'm still neutral here. I've just been clearing misunderstandings and wrong interpretations.

He manipulates order, controls fate with his gears. He isn't using any gears here. He just says everything is moving according to "plot". How about you tell me what in that statement is metaphorical? This is different from the theater stuff.

Also look at this if you haven't seen it.

The issue is that only the thing about the world being a theater is metaphorical. The scan where "script/plot" is mentioned, is clearly not. This is the full context as provided by dereck03.

Their arguments against this point being that plot in this case can also mean to plan/ scheme and does not necessarily refer to the plot in a story.

Here is the break down of the line its mentioned in.

Yeah, I don't know how you can see this and say it Could refer to "plan".

They're further trying to drive their point by saying eques is the world (not necessarily false but he is the world's will) and that he's referring to his plan but he does not refer to himself as the world when he speaks.

You can dismiss the theater statements as metaphorical, but this one clearly is not. Not to mention showings of fate manipulation being beyond what normal fate manipulation can do and said fate already being predetermined even before the world existed.

Also, you keep saying it's vague but where were you when something as vague as sinbad's justification qualified for it?
Not trying to downgrade Sinbad, just using it as an example

 

[Dog3352]

I don't think the plan thing is even important. We only need to prove that order=plot so if someone can get all the explanations from this thread and try to add more detail and post that. So the admins can evaluate it. It would be enough and try to avoid points that lead to misunderstanding.

Right, currently it's not important.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon Again, no proof that something like this is literal to a T, especially when they say "it seems like a play" as opposed to it being literal.

Where's the proof that they function on different laws? Because nothing in the scans implies that.

I already replied to this why are you just ignoring the point. Seems likes comes from Anos POV who just learned about how gods sees mortal world. Also first scan literally states as " all according to script of the world"

Really if all arguments comes from Ignorance then I can't explain anything.

• HFG states world as stage.
• Dilpred states world as stage
• Anos backs it up
• Eques states world as a Script

At this rate all I am seeing is people just ignoring the statements and points.

Only person who actually had good refute was @Everything12 atleast he admitted both sides as equal interpretation other than just ignoring the scans in the OP.

 

[ImmortalDread]

In the novel? No, no plan is mentioned in the novel, I'm just giving an example, and because of the lack of mention of any Eques plan in Maou Gakuin's novel I'm not sure even if the word "plot" has the meaning of "plan ", there is nothing mentioned to "plan" in previous chapters of the novel.

Oh now I understood you. My apologies

 

[Dog3352]

Oh now I understood you. My apologies

Okay, I think it's probably the English that's horrible.

 

[YoPercy]

Agree with PM, OP is more convincing than the opposing.

 

[Dog3352]

Also, you keep saying it's vague but where were you when something as vague as sinbad's justification qualified for it?
Not trying to downgrade Sinbad, just using it as an example

Well, I had a look at this Sinbad thing, and obviously he used metaphor when talking about "the protagonists of the stories you've written might one day hurt you?", I thought you were even exaggerating a little bit when talking about Magi using metaphor and that it is also vague, but when I read it I realized that it sounds VERY vague and obviously a metaphor.

 

[MehrasJB]

Well, I had a look at this Sinbad thing, and obviously he used metaphor when talking about "the protagonists of the stories you've written might one day hurt you?", I thought you were even exaggerating a little bit when talking about Magi using metaphor and that it is also vague, but when I read it I realized that it sounds VERY vague and obviously a metaphor.

There could more to it other than what is in the op so we can't say for sure. But if it's really like that then it should be downgraded or this one should get accepted.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Well, I had a look at this Sinbad thing, and obviously he used metaphor when talking about "the protagonists of the stories you've written might one day hurt you?", I thought you were even exaggerating a little bit when talking about Magi using metaphor and that it is also vague, but when I read it I realized that it sounds VERY vague and obviously a metaphor.

@Tatsumi504 Thanks for the idea brother, I will add this to my downgrade XD

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Tatsumi504 Thanks for the idea brother, I will add this to my downgrade XD

Or we accept this and move on

 

[Dog3352]

There could more to it other than what is in the op so we can't say for sure. But if it's really like that then it should be downgraded or this one should get accepted.

From my point of view, it's the only way, I swear I didn't expect something so vague, and the metaphor is basically spat in the reader's face.