Universal Energy Systems

[Promestein]

Do what you want, I don't care.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it might be worth mentioning that DontTalkDT is a Bureaucrat now, meaning he also has just as much authority as them. Combine that with his experience of being the lead calculation group consultant, and those might technically mean his authority is a little bit higher than other Bureaucrats when it comes to calculation policies like this.

Also, Ogbunabali makes good points. I tried to make sure to clarify the difference between universal power sources and Semi-Universal Power sources. The latter would typical scale to physicals, where as the former could do things like scale certain elemental feats to other elemental feats; fire, ice, and electricity manipulation to each other. But physicals are omitted. And that even Semi-Universal power sources have different levels to make them closer or farther; some of them it's just the ability to heat/cool water/ice that scales but other elements are separate. Plus, even legit Universal Power Sources may or may not have other limitations such as "There strongest attack by far" and especially Suicide attacks which may not downscale to their casual attacks. But even those have case by case.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, Ogbunabali makes good points. I tried to make sure to clarify the difference between universal power sources and Semi-Universal Power sources. The latter would typical scale to physicals, where as the former could do things like scale certain elemental feats to other elemental feats; fire, ice, and electricity manipulation to each other. But physicals are omitted. And that even Semi-Universal power sources have different levels to make them closer or farther; some of them it's just the ability to heat/cool water/ice that scales but other elements are separate.

Hmmmmm, semi-universal power sources. Interesting.

Plus, even legit Universal Power Sources may or may not have other limitations such as "There strongest attack by far" and especially Suicide attacks which may not downscale to their casual attacks. But even those have case by case.

Yeah, Ultimate Attacks are a genuine thing even with a Universal Power Source at play.

 

[Antvasima]

Was DontTalk certain about his stance here? He told me that he would respond here again when he finds more time to do so, given that he is busy with other threads at the moment, and there is no great need to hurry too much with this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, DontTalk is welcome to take as long as he needs; there's no rush for something that has a lot to go over for whether something as simple as whether or not one page is necessary to be made.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'd suggest that they check out DDM's arguments here and my sandbox here.

I still agree with the creation of the page.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, DontTalk is welcome to take as long as he needs; there's no rush for something that has a lot to go over for whether something as simple as whether or not one page is necessary to be made.

Yeah, I'm in no particular hurry either.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hey, actually, I'll post something here

There is simply no chance in any of the Nine Hells that I'm reading DDM's post, there's only so much free time in the day. Assuming the intent isn't to stonewall the thread to death, I will ask that the information be condensed/summarized, if the information therein is actually important enough to ask everyone to go read it.

With that said, I'm going to give my analysis to the sandbox:

• I think it becomes too confusing at times, such as trying to discuss the concept of a 'Character + Weapon pair'. The wordy, vague explanations, I feel, will lead to people twisting them to suit their wants and allow abuse of any page we put forward. While I don't have insight on how I'd word it, I think we should either condense the wording to not account for all eventualities (and take them on a case-by-case basis), or be much less vague. I personally prefer the former since we'll likely need staff evaluation anyways.
• Since most of the criteria remain basically what they were in the past, I am in agreement with them. They don't cover all bases, I suspect, but then, they don't need to. As they are, they are a very competent list of qualifiers (and disqualifiers).
• I appreciate that for some reason the vague-ass D&D example has remained, long live the nerd shit.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, the D&D stuff should probably already be fitting the criteria from what I have heard. As is verses like Dark Souls and what not. I know it wasn't mentioning each paragraph responding to any specific posts, even if some details may have been towards only one person within the thread. But basically, case by case on what Universal Power Sources and Semi-Universal Power sources are. And there's not many mandatory details of which one makes one or the other, just a few details that were already simply easily explained in KLOL's sandbox.

 

[KLOL506]

Hey, actually, I'll post something here

There is simply no chance in any of the Nine Hells that I'm reading DDM's post, there's only so much free time in the day. Assuming the intent isn't to stonewall the thread to death, I will ask that the information be condensed/summarized, if the information therein is actually important enough to ask everyone to go read it.

With that said, I'm going to give my analysis to the sandbox:

• I think it becomes too confusing at times, such as trying to discuss the concept of a 'Character + Weapon pair'. The wordy, vague explanations, I feel, will lead to people twisting them to suit their wants and allow abuse of any page we put forward. While I don't have insight on how I'd word it, I think we should either condense the wording to not account for all eventualities (and take them on a case-by-case basis), or be much less vague. I personally prefer the former since we'll likely need staff evaluation anyways.

Hmmmmmm, it is indeed quite big at the moment, but it does say that it must be explicitly determined on a case-by-case basis (The Character + Weapon combo part), so as to not let every single example go through willy-nilly without some scrutiny put on them. Any other suggestions on how to condense it in such a manner to be less vague?

• Since most of the criteria remain basically what they were in the past, I am in agreement with them. They don't cover all bases, I suspect, but then, they don't need to. As they are, they are a very competent list of qualifiers (and disqualifiers).
• I appreciate that for some reason the vague-ass D&D example has remained, long live the nerd shit.

And remain there it shall. Bless you brother.

 

[Antoniofer]

Being honest, don't see how DDM's text added something to the theme, like, he just repeated what is said in every thread that argue about scaling due same energy source, like displacing energy = generating energy, whenever the power is harmful or not, and since they boost themselves physically that means that character's punches = energy displaced. Not going to touch if that is true or not, but is not something new.

I still stand with the page being unnecessary at best, as at the end people will need to search through the verse feats to determinate it; "but how they will known if that one specific spell scales to physicals", well, just look at the verse/character's feat and find it out, and just at that one verse, how other verses or real life philosofy (but I tell you, there's no such a thing as "fighting energy", than that one practice treat adrenaline activation or similar bodily functions as some kind of mystical energy that's due the philosofy's ignorance) treat the "energy source" is irrelevant.

 

[KLOL506]

Being honest, don't see how DDM's text added something to the theme, like, he just repeated what is said in every thread that argue about scaling due same energy source, like displacing energy = generating energy, whenever the power is harmful or not, and since they boost themselves physically that means that character's punches = energy displaced. Not going to touch if that is true or not, but is not something new.

Physical prowess isn't the only thing getting amped tho, all their other powers and abilities get the amp too.

I still stand with the page being unnecessary at best, as at the end people will need to search through the verse feats to determinate it; "but how they will known if that one specific spell scales to physicals", well, just look at the verse/character's feat and find it out, and just at that one verse, how other verses or real life philosofy (but I tell you, there's no such a thing as "fighting energy", than that one practice treat adrenaline activation or similar bodily functions as some kind of mystical energy that's due the philosofy's ignorance) treat the "energy source" is irrelevant.

Why would you even use the whole "no such a thing as fighting energy in real life other than adrenaline activation" argument against fictional verses having power sources to begin with? This just baffles my mind.

And no, how the verse treats the power source and its mechanics definitely plays a large part to determine whether scaling their physicals and other abilities to the same level would even fly or not.

 

[Antoniofer]

That was one of DDM's arguments; if I undersood correctly, arguments such magic/ki not being a thing in real life does not work cuz subjectivity and religion. But even if they exist in real life (they don't) there's no reason to believe they work just as real physics or another verse's power source, so such comparation is not relevant.

Tell you, the guidelines do not add nothing in the best of the case, and instead, people will use them as method of stone walling potential downgrades/upgrades, or as supportive evidence for a stat(s). But the other member that supported my stance gave up, and against such amount of users, if they didn't agree with her, even less with me.

 

[KLOL506]

That was one of DDM's arguments; if I undersood correctly, arguments such magic/ki not being a thing in real life does not work cuz subjectivity and religion. But even if they exist in real life (they don't) there's no reason to believe they work just as real physics or another verse's power source, so such comparation is not relevant.

Scaling up physical strength and other supernatural abilities to the same power level is hardly something you need laws of physics to justify in fiction. It just happens when shown to happen. Stop overcomplicating things.

Tell you, the guidelines do not add nothing in the best of the case, and instead, people will use them as method of stone walling potential downgrades/upgrades, or as supportive evidence for a stat(s).

Like? We've literally been using the two mandatory criteria for years now, I'd genuinely like to see how this would come across as a way to stonewall upgrades or downgrades. The literal point of this thread is to determine whether or not to make a dedicated page for accepted criteria. If anything, people here are arguing that what we've been going with so far has been too lax and forgiving.

 

[Antoniofer]

Am I overcomplicating things? You're the ones that want create a long guideline that does not really add much because at the end people will (and should) stick to what the verse says about if some specific spell scales to physicals and/or a different spell.

Example? People may dismiss solid evidence for a potential upgrade/downgrade because the evidence itself enter in conflict with the guidelines. You may add a bunch of new rukes to make it stricter, but you'll just end up overcomplicating things, when at the end is up to the users to evaluate that verse (and not any other, for much they seems alike).

 

[KLOL506]

Am I overcomplicating things? You're the ones that want create a long guideline that does not really add much because at the end people will (and should) stick to what the verse says about if some specific spell scales to physicals and/or a different spell.

As you can see, it doesn't just apply to physicals, but other capabilities as well, but because of the back-and-forth between us, physicals ended up being given the most priority.

Also, what long guidelines? There's only two mandatory criteria that we've been using for who knows how long, and the only new ones added were the supplementary criteria and one case-by-case basis criteria (Which have also been in use for years now), with a bunch of supporting evidence notes that on their own don't mean much without the two main criteria behind them.

Example? People may dismiss solid evidence for a potential upgrade/downgrade because the evidence itself enter in conflict with the guidelines. You may add a bunch of new rukes to make it stricter, but you'll just end up overcomplicating things, when at the end is up to the users to evaluate that verse (and not any other, for much they seems alike).

How would they enter in conflict with the guidelines to begin with when there's only two mandatory ones to begin with? The same two mandatory criteria that has literally been a thing since stuff like Naruto and Dragon Ball were a thing but wasn't added to any official page?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

His actual rule isn't even that long, the post was just a list of factual statements, and not all of them are repeats and even remained fair to other details. In fact, most of the allegations are coming from you Antoniofer, which I already corrected those allegations. No one is saying "Every verse follows this" only that a big chunk of them do. Plus some verses it's for some parts but not others; aka Semi-Universal power sources. And others that don't.

Also, arguments could be made against stuff like "Magic" since those verses have a lot case by case basis and magic is arguably not a thing IRL. But Ki is definitely a thing IRL, just not as advanced or epic. Literally every martial arts class told IRL talks about it. Tae Kwon Do instructors say things like "Always Ki-yop every time you hit or take a hit because it causes energy to flow." In short, Ki and Energy are the exact same thing, just one has a name was used by original theorists while the other is used by modern scientists. Saying "Ki is not a thing IRL" is the same thing as saying energy isn't a think IRL.

Plus, KLOL is right. Saying "It's not a thing IRL" is never a good argument for anything period on any Vs debating battleboard.

 

[Antoniofer]

The argument is valid if people want to give physical properties to fantasy elements such magic and ki with no reason; like, if someone want to argue why changing the color of the sky or inverting gravity in a volume means a character can launch a blast have the equivalent potency of a nuke just because the three powers are magic/ki based is something they need to prove using tangible (that one gathers from that one specific verse), no amount guidelines can change that.

Without staff support, I do not expect to influence with this revision and subsequent addition anymore, just hope people stick to common sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Have all of Antoniofer's concerns been properly taken into account in the text for the suggested new page? I definitely don't want any character who can use magic and cause it to rain, to get the energy of such a feat automatically applied to both their energy blasts and physical statistics, for example.

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu's concerns should preferably also be taken into account.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Bambu admitted he hasn't read my post or isn't reading it mostly because it's "Too long", when plenty of people have written much longer on various other content revisions and staff discussions. But the bits and pieces he has read or heard still as well as what I have said on previous threads still lines up with what he agrees with, so there isn't too much concern. Simply, "They can use magic to cause it to rain" won't scale to physical attacks by default. But if it's an advanced, lore detailed "magic system" that includes physical stats being able to be amplified within the many different powers covered under the same system may be exceptions. Agnaa still agreed earlier on the thread that characters who are capable of using megatons of energy manipulation to move and form storm clouds whether it be via telekinesis or sheer conductivity of their high current wind manipulation, ect, who are equally capable of using the same levels of energy manipulation to amplify their physical strikes should qualify.

Plus, the other examples of "Semi-Universal" power sources are still unaddressed by both of them. And no offence intended, but Antoniofer has been outright straw manning others throughout the entire threads though going to assume he's misunderstanding as opposed to him doing so intentionally. However, it's pretty much common sense plenty of water benders are just as capable of converting the state of matter of water back and forth between solid, liquid, and gas and would scale 1 to 1 in that area specifically. But those details alone would not mean they're capable of X Joule punches, kicks, ect. Then there are step further of scaling any X joules of energy for their fire, water, wind, earth, electricity, ect, with more lore details evidence required. Yes, more lore details are required to prove they're actually "Universal" as opposed to just "Semi-Universal". And even Semi-Universal power sources still require in verse lore details to an extent.

Also, keep in mind. It isn't just about Environmental destruction feats and creation feats having "Connected Power Sources" mentioned in their pages, but also stabilization feats, 2 or more universal merging feats, and probably plenty of others on that list. It's often agreed the ability to merge two or more timelines is also something that wouldn't be 2-C striking strength by default, but there are cases such as DMC's Demonic Energy System where that feat is legit. Plus, I'm only scraping the surface of the conductivity related feats here so far, because I have found a lot more in depth details I'm saving for a different thread and giving more elaborate details.

 

[KLOL506]

Hmm. Have all of Antoniofer's concerns been properly taken into account in the text for the suggested new page? I definitely don't want any character who can use magic and cause it to rain, to get the energy of such a feat automatically applied to both their energy blasts and physical statistics, for example.

That's basically him having issues with scaling storm feats and ice feats to physicals in general and him having problems with storm feats and ice feats as a whole, which I believe is already being tackled in its own thread. Issues that I am pretty sure DontTalkDT already disagrees with since he considers storm feats and ice feats to be legit to scale to physicals and other abilities in general.

Also magic is a case that has to be dealt with on a separate case-by-case basis, as magic can vary by verse-by-verse, whereas with stuff like Ki and Chakra that really isn't the case. Also pretty much what DDM said.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

My Opinion hasn't changed either, i still agree with the UES

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. As long as the new page will be carefully worded to avoid misunderstandings (so people do not use it to apply examples similar to what I mentioned above), it is probably fine then, but we should still wait for the other bureaucrats to have the time to respond.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. As long as the new page will be carefully worded to avoid misunderstandings (so people do not use it to apply examples similar to what I mentioned above), it is probably fine then, but we should still wait for the other bureaucrats to have the time to respond.

I am actually still waiting for Ogbunabali to propose his wording to fix the page up to account for not just amping physical strength but also other abilities as most others have argued. And Bambu has proposed to condense the Character + Weapon combo description and determine that part on a case-by-case basis (The case-by-casis part is already there, just need some assistance on how to condense it further so as to not allow all eventualities to pass through, even though I personally think it having to be needed to be determined on a case-by-case basis should do just that so I'm not sure how you could really abuse it any further).

Also we're still waiting for DT to further help improve the page, so we're in no rush. This is basically giving a page to criteria we've already been unofficially using for years now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me then.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bambu admitted he hasn't read my post or isn't reading it mostly because it's "Too long", when plenty of people have written much longer on various other content revisions and staff discussions. But the bits and pieces he has read or heard still as well as what I have said on previous threads still lines up with what he agrees with, so there isn't too much concern. Simply, "They can use magic to cause it to rain" won't scale to physical attacks by default. But if it's an advanced, lore detailed "magic system" that includes physical stats being able to be amplified within the many different powers covered under the same system may be exceptions. Agnaa still agreed earlier on the thread that characters who are capable of using megatons of energy manipulation to move and form storm clouds whether it be via telekinesis or sheer conductivity of their high current wind manipulation, ect, who are equally capable of using the same levels of energy manipulation to amplify their physical strikes should qualify.

Plus, the other examples of "Semi-Universal" power sources are still unaddressed by both of them. And no offence intended, but Antoniofer has been outright straw manning others throughout the entire threads though going to assume he's misunderstanding as opposed to him doing so intentionally. However, it's pretty much common sense plenty of water benders are just as capable of converting the state of matter of water back and forth between solid, liquid, and gas and would scale 1 to 1 in that area specifically. But those details alone would not mean they're capable of X Joule punches, kicks, ect. Then there are step further of scaling any X joules of energy for their fire, water, wind, earth, electricity, ect, with more lore details evidence required. Yes, more lore details are required to prove they're actually "Universal" as opposed to just "Semi-Universal". And even Semi-Universal power sources still require in verse lore details to an extent.

Also, keep in mind. It isn't just about Environmental destruction feats and creation feats having "Connected Power Sources" mentioned in their pages, but also stabilization feats, 2 or more universal merging feats, and probably plenty of others on that list. It's often agreed the ability to merge two or more timelines is also something that wouldn't be 2-C striking strength by default, but there are cases such as DMC's Demonic Energy System where that feat is legit. Plus, I'm only scraping the surface of the conductivity related feats here so far, because I have found a lot more in depth details I'm saving for a different thread and giving more elaborate details.

DDM, let me be perfectly frank with you

there is no reality where I require myself to read the rambling stream of consciousness of any user in order to qualify myself to speak on what I consider a fairly basic issue. If you addressed my point somewhere in there, I do encourage you to tell me about it- but I'd rather avoid the whole "ignore Bambu's point because he didn't read my post". Such thinking absolutely leads to stonewalling, whether intentional or not.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DDM, let me be perfectly frank with you

there is no reality where I require myself to read the rambling stream of consciousness of any user in order to qualify myself to speak on what I consider a fairly basic issue. If you addressed my point somewhere in there, I do encourage you to tell me about it- but I'd rather avoid the whole "ignore Bambu's point because he didn't read my post". Such thinking absolutely leads to stonewalling, whether intentional or not.

I might have misunderstood what Antvasima was thinking, things like that happen all the time when I'm in a hurry to respond to stash of notifications before work shift starts. And it sounded like he thought of you as someone going against the creation of the page or against me. Also, I never said "Ignore Bambu" or that "Concern's aren't valid because you haven't read my entire post" only that it's not made clear whether or not you agree with everything I said. I would never tell people to ignore you especially since you're also someone who's usually open-minded with a relatively good sense of judgement on criteria and would have thought the fact I gave your post a kudos would have made that clearer. But I'll try to summarize my main points.

• Universal Power Sources require following points
  • Character(s) and/or Verses treat multiple powers and abilities including but not limited to superhuman physical characteristics as a subpower of a more flexible ability such as energy manipulation, ki manipulation, magic, data manipulation, ect
  • Whether it's an internal source or external source isn't the relevant part, but they may need in verse lore details and/or consistent scaling whether they use supernatural or physical attacks to qualify as universal
• There exist Semi-Universal Power Sources that have some criteria but not others
  • Multiple supernatural powers are within the shared magic or energy system such as many different forms of elemental manipulation, but superhuman strength is not included in the lore
  • There are lacks of physical feats on par with magical abilities and tend to consistently have lower showings in the physical department.
• Examples of things that would scale to Attack Potency but not scale to striking strength or durability outside of Universal Power Source scaling
  • Environmental Destruction feats such as storm and weather manipulation feats
  • Creation feats
  • Planet/Star/Pocket Dimension/Universe Stabilization feats
  • Merging of multiple dimensions/bodies of space
  • Powers done via a magical artifact where it is the artifact's power and not the wielder and anyone can use it. And said artifact may exist for one specific technique
• Parts that are considered more neutral details, but doesn't confirm whether or not they're actually Universal Power Sources or not
  • Being something everyone in verse has doesn't automatically make it "Universal" as opposed to Semi-Universal Power sources. (Just because everyone has an in verse Magic source in them doesn't mean everyone or anyone for that matter can make use to amp physical stats without specific lore details or scaling)
  • Just because a few or one character has a certain Energy/Magic source doesn't make it not Universal. (As long as the character in question is equally capable of harnessing X Joules of energy from whatever whether manipulation or GBE feat as they are using it all to hit hard with a punch or sword strike, it counts as a Universal Power Source)

There are other parts I admitted to being derailment that should be handled in their own threads eventually. Such as heat vs blunt force trauma in the absence of Universal Power Sources, but that was just getting out of the way. It's still all case by case at the end of the day.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In that case I misunderstood. From where I sat, the chain of events was as follows:

• You post the rather long comment (18 paragraphs, give or take)
• I state I'm not going to read it but still give my insight on the sandbox made by KLOL
• Discussion happens, you kudos said post, life goes on
• Ant references my comment, namely the bit about the sandbox being potentially abusable in its current state (or, at least, moreso than I'd like it to be)
• You comment that I didn't read your post in response

My apologies, in that case, if I interpreted shit wrong.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with the page creation. I am closer to Ogbunabali's views on the page.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with the page creation, if I had forgotten to add earlier. The details are getting a bit confusing for me, so I don't have an accurate view on how things will play out till examples are made. I differ to the more knowledgeable members, such as DDM.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk will be busy with exams for the next two weeks, so we will likely not be able to finish this thread until afterwards.

 

[KLOL506]

DontTalk will be busy with exams for the next two weeks, so we will likely not be able to finish this thread until afterwards.

I have no issues. Something as simple as this doesn't need to be rushed.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm late, but yeah I agree with the page creation

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for the input.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

@DontTalkDT @Ogbunabali Your inputs would be greatly appreciated.

 

[KLOL506]

Bumpino

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain the fundaments of the discussion and our conclusions so far here in an easy to understand manner please? I no longer remember it well.