Universal Energy Systems

[KLOL506]

Examples, or lack thereof, don't proof rules. Just because you don't know a counterexample to something that doesn't mean that you can assume its a rule that holds for everyone. That would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you never find counterexamples because you just assume it's the case...
It's what is called an argument from ignorance, which should categorically eliminate it.

However, I can also just give you a counterexample. Shinjou from Owari no Chronicle can channel her willpower into her weapon to make it more powerful, allowing it to shoot High 7-A blasts. She herself is a normal human regardless, as she can't use that power for her own physical enhancement.

I believe this example would fall under the semi-universal energy sources as mentioned by DDM.

Eh, both?

If you want more examples I can also add Skulduggery Pleasant verse to the list, where getting your magic attacked directly can kill you, yet most Sorcerers can't enhance their physicals in any way.

Or ToAru for that matter, where most magic works by refining lifeforce into mana. I shouldn't have to explain how losing lifeforce is rather problematic. Yet many magicians are glasscannons.

I guess this would be a sort of semi-universal energy source then, but DDM can explain that part better than me.

Then the entire blog needs to be rewritten, because the mandatory criteria isn't suited to determine whether ice magic scales to fire magic in the slightest. That is entirely about physical scaling.

I changed the wording a bit so that it doesn't sound like you have to enhance physicals first and foremost. The point was, one could use the energy source to amplify all their attributes and maintain power level parity between all of them (AKA keep the power level between all capabilities the exact same).

Although, even then the point would still need to be rewritten as how common it is isn't the supporting evidence here. Multiple different spells showing potency relative to the amount of power invested into them would be the evidence for that being a common pattern.

But a power source being a common one in terms of availability and versatility is not mandatory, heck, it isn't even supplementary.

Wait, so how should it be put now?

It's already put like this:

"In the case of characters using the energy of an external source, as long as the character shows feats in proportion with a certain amount of energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artefact, the feat will be attributed mainly for the weapon, but can be considered as a universal energy system for a Character + Weapon pair (Basically what this means is that if a character can tap into said weapon’s power source/system and then is able to use that energy to perform their own feats, then it should be fine to scale their physical strength to the weapon, and it can be considered a character + weapon combo). This may need to be determined on a case-by-case basis. One should also consider the aspects of power-scaling as make-or-break factors."

But why would scaling to physicals be a mandatory requirement for scaling magic to each other?

Except, it's not mandatory? What is mandatory is for you to be able to channel the energy into all your capabilities, whether it be physicals, magic, other supernatural powers and then scale them to the same power level, etc.

The page is laid out to be about scaling magic to physicals. That's ok. Better not throw in the other as a sidenote and keep it to just scaling to physicals for now, even if it's a more specific case from the big general.

That's why I added "and other powers and capabilities". Though I would be more than willing to

That's... the point. It demonstrates how using the style of invalid implication used in the argument one can make nonsensical connections.

But emotion is being used here to try and justify having a power ability. It's not the same as having a power source be a fuel to your body and then making you crap out if you lose it all.

So you're saying that you are only applying the argument that vital energy source are universal, to energy sources from which you already know that they are universal? What?

Vital energy sources that are universal and are specifically stated to be tied to life-force.

For it to serve as an enhancer it would first need to support the premise in some way. Which it doesn't.

Like, name me one scenario where adding that point makes a difference.

A scenario where the character loses the energy source but still retains their insane strength. I believe Zelda was brought up as an example.

Again, tho, how can it support something if there is no connection between it and the premise it is supposed to support? Imagine I tried to say "Having Fire Manipulation" as supportive evidence for "Having Water Manipulation", as I have the impression that many characters have both. That's what that argument sounds like to me.

But that's not what the argument is to begin with. Having different abilities =/= tapping into the same mana pool to collectively enhance them to the same power level.

And if you want an example of the opposite look no further than Noah and her Low Multiversal concepts.

This isn't an issue of whether it is possible for underlying principles of the universe to be used for physical enhancement, but whether it is something that necessarily, or at least in an overwhelming majority of all cases, would be the case.

 

[KLOL506]

Do we have a tally of where everyone stands

We do.

The draft has been edited significantly since the last tallies, but...

The following staff agree to a page being made on the standards:

ByAsura, Colonel_Krukov, DarkDragonMedeus, KingTempest, ElixirBlue, Theglassman12, SamanPatou, Mr. Bambu, Ogbunabali (He proposed some edits be made, still waiting on that), LordGriffin1000, ElixirBlue, DueDate8898, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, Planck69, DemonGodMitchAubin, Celestial_Pegasus, UchihaSlayer69 and Shadowbokunohero.

AKM sama has issues with the creation of a page but basically agreed to the two mandatory criteria currently in the draft.

As for those who disagree: Antoniofer and Promestein (But she said that she doesn't care anymore at this point).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, @DontTalkDT .

So what do you think should be done here exactly, in summary?

 

[KLOL506]

Thank you for helping out, @DontTalkDT .

So what do you think should be done here exactly, in summary?

@GilverTheProtoAngelo said he will respond to DT's points in due time.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Examples, or lack thereof, don't proof rules. Just because you don't know a counterexample to something that doesn't mean that you can assume its a rule that holds for everyone. That would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you never find counterexamples because you just assume it's the case...
It's what is called an argument from ignorance, which should categorically eliminate it.

However, I can also just give you a counterexample. Shinjou from Owari no Chronicle can channel her willpower into her weapon to make it more powerful, allowing it to shoot High 7-A blasts. She herself is a normal human regardless, as she can't use that power for her own physical enhancement.

Fair enough. But even then I'd oppose removal of weapon classification as a criteria, we can make it supplementary since majority of versee I see still follow the supposition I made originally. There will always be some exceptions or minorities which deviate from rule. But something must remain as a guideline for majority. I would like to keep it as pointer at least if not a supplementary criterion.
Something along the lines of..
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for physical strength enhancements, it's acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy AP provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist".

Eh, both?

If you want more examples I can also add Skulduggery Pleasant verse to the list, where getting your magic attacked directly can kill you, yet most Sorcerers can't enhance their physicals in any way.

Or ToAru for that matter, where most magic works by refining lifeforce into mana. I shouldn't have to explain how losing lifeforce is rather problematic. Yet many magicians are glasscannons.

Fair on this as well. Just like above this might fall under Semi-Universal System as suggested by Klol.

Then the entire blog needs to be rewritten, because the mandatory criteria isn't suited to determine whether ice magic scales to fire magic in the slightest. That is entirely about physical scaling.
Although, even then the point would still need to be rewritten as how common it is isn't the supporting evidence here. Multiple different spells showing potency relative to the amount of power invested into them would be the evidence for that being a common pattern.

Hmmmm.. I guess we could shift this point under the criterion for Semi-Universal System.
Spells becoming proportionally powerful w.r.t energy inputted, even if physical amplification is not on table.

So you're saying the entire argument only works under the premise that the character in question has already proven the ability to physically enhance themselves with the fundamental power in question? That it is an application that is possible for it, other than being unable to manipulate the power for that purpose?

In other words, it's an argument that supports the premise if and only if we already know that the premise is true?

My point was that physics manipulation and energy manipulation are two different abilities.
So I wouldn't use that as a counterexample.
Unless said physics manipulation in verse eerily acts like energy manipulation.

In context of energies which are lifeforce related. If lifeforce is stated to be directly responsible for strength or it's deterioration causes weakness then would consider that as a valid evidence for physical amplification.
So this should stay as supplementary point atleast.

What do you mean with Semi-Universal?

DDM can explain better. But from what I see it's UES/UPS with limited versatility. Basically same stuff sans physical amplification. But since the energy system still acts as fundamental connective between attacks which require energy would come under Semi-UES. For example the cases you yourself gave here.

 

[KLOL506]

Fair enough. But even then I'd oppose removal of weapon classification as a criteria, we can make it supplementary since majority of verses I see still follow the supposition I made originally. There will always be some exceptions or minorities which deviate from rule. But something must remain as a guideline for majority. I would like to keep it as pointer at least if not a supplementary criterion.
Something along the lines of..
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for physical strength enhancements, it's acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy AP provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist".

So, this would be a new supplementary criteria?

Fair on this as well. Just like above this might fall under Semi-Universal System as suggested by Klol.

Great, time to make some new criteria on Semi-Universal Systems in the same page.

Also this suggestion was totally DDM and Hellbeast's idea, so credit where credit is due.

Hmmmm.. I guess we could shift this point under the criterion for Semi-Universal System.
Spells becoming proportionally powerful w.r.t energy inputted, even if physical amplification is not on table.

I guess we could do something like that, aye.

My point was that physics manipulation and energy manipulation are two different abilities.
So I wouldn't use that as a counterexample.
Unless said physics manipulation in verse eerily acts like energy manipulation.

In context of energies which are lifeforce related. If lifeforce is stated to be directly responsible for strength or it's deterioration causes weakness then would consider that as a valid evidence for physical amplification.
So this should stay as supplementary point atleast.

Yeah I still agree with this part of keeping the "vastly weakened with the removal of a power source" as a supplementary criteria.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So, this would be a new supplementary criteria

Ye.

Great, time to make some new criteria on Semi-Universal Systems in the same page.

Also this suggestion was totally DDM and Hellbeast's idea, so credit where credit is due.

Yeah, credits to them. Link your sandbox again when you are done editing.

I guess we could do something like that, aye.

Yeah I still agree with this part of keeping the "vastly weakened with the removal of a power source" as a supplementary criteria.

 

[KLOL506]

Ye.

K, will add them when I'm back from class

Yeah, credits to them. Link your sandbox again when you are done editing.

This one I need some assistance for the draft. @DarkDragonMedeus @Hellbeast think y'all can help me out on this later?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I want to avoid sounding like a broken record, and if DontTalkDT wants more elaborate details, he should read this when he gets the time.

But Semi-Universal Power sources are the "Magic or Spiritual energy systems ect" that effect and/or equalize two or more powers and abilities treating them as both sub-powers of a more general power/ability, but superhuman physical characteristic and/or Statistics Amplification (In the form of amping physical stats) is exempt from the list of things it does effect. Examples being stuff like Equivalent Exchange from FMA or Magic from Harry Potter. Where it's safe to assume characters are just as capable of melting/splitting/softening the same elements and compounds as they can freezing/forming/hardening in FMA's case or that fire magic is comparable to other elements, but not quite assume characters can punch with the same potency. Which is different from true universal power sources such as Ki, Chakra and what not.

As for other things DT was concerned about, I think we already went over there are examples other than magic systems such as the case like Digimon and Megaman having digital data being a universal power source. And lastly, DT mentioned not caring about names despite him mentioning he prefers to call it "Connected" energy system as opposed to "Universal" energy system. Which would also rename "Semi-Universal" to "Semi-Connected", but I kind of prefer Universal because not sure how I feel about "Semi-Connected". And the reason why I think "Power Source" sounds better than Energy System is because it sounds better when talking about feats measured in watts as opposed to joules.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about the above points?

 

[KLOL506]

Bumpo

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked DontTalk to comment here.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask again.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

I still need assistance on wording the aspects of "Semi-Universal Energy Sources".

 

[Antvasima]

Bump.

I still need assistance on wording the aspects of "Semi-Universal Energy Sources".

@DontTalkDT

Your help would still be appreciated here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, so regarding the semi-universal energy sources stuff. As said I think if we want to include it the page as a whole needs a bit of a rewrite. That stuff should have separate sections and be clearly structured.

I made a brief outline here. Didn't quite add everything in yet, but it should give an idea.
Instead of Semi-Universal, I chose the name "Non-Physical" in the hopes that it is somewhat more descriptive.
I also made a "Limited Energy System" for the sake of covering things like magic systems if there also is a non-scaling chi system. Or cases of certain classes of spells scaling to each other and others not (e.g. Overlord has several Tiers of spells and I think they generally don't scale downwards).
So the systems generalize each other. Universal is more general than Non-physical, which in turn is more general than limited.

Is that an ok idea for the structure?

 

[KLOL506]

Alright, so regarding the semi-universal energy sources stuff. As said I think if we want to include it the page as a whole needs a bit of a rewrite. That stuff should have separate sections and be clearly structured.

I made a brief outline here. Didn't quite add everything in yet, but it should give an idea.
Instead of Semi-Universal, I chose the name "Non-Physical" in the hopes that it is somewhat more descriptive.
I also made a "Limited Energy System" for the sake of covering things like magic systems if there also is a non-scaling chi system. Or cases of certain classes of spells scaling to each other and others not (e.g. Overlord has several Tiers of spells and I think they generally don't scale downwards).
So the systems generalize each other. Universal is more general than Non-physical, which in turn is more general than limited.

Is that an ok idea for the structure?

Ah ****, more work for me.

Where do I add your stuff? To the top of my stuff? And how would I handle my criteria? What section would it be edited into? Some sub-heading or something?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ah ****, more work for me.

Where do I add your stuff? To the top of my stuff?

Kinda in-between maybe? I think my summary encompasses the existing summary.
Mhh... if the ideas and structure I presented is fine, I will just fuse the stuff in the sandbox and my blog at my earliest convenience, I guess.

 

[KLOL506]

Kinda in-between maybe? I think my summary encompasses the existing summary.
Mhh... if the ideas and structure I presented is fine, I will just fuse the stuff in the sandbox and my blog at my earliest convenience, I guess.

K

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, so regarding the semi-universal energy sources stuff. As said I think if we want to include it the page as a whole needs a bit of a rewrite. That stuff should have separate sections and be clearly structured.

I made a brief outline here. Didn't quite add everything in yet, but it should give an idea.
Instead of Semi-Universal, I chose the name "Non-Physical" in the hopes that it is somewhat more descriptive.
I also made a "Limited Energy System" for the sake of covering things like magic systems if there also is a non-scaling chi system. Or cases of certain classes of spells scaling to each other and others not (e.g. Overlord has several Tiers of spells and I think they generally don't scale downwards).
So the systems generalize each other. Universal is more general than Non-physical, which in turn is more general than limited.

Is that an ok idea for the structure?

Thank you very much for helping out. Your draft page looks good to me.

Can somebody write a list of the staff, honorary staff, and knowledgeable members who have commented here earlier, so I can ask them as well, please?

 

[KLOL506]

Thank you very much for helping out. Your draft page looks good to me.

Can somebody write a list of the staff, honorary staff, and knowledgeable members who Have commented here earlier, so I can ask them as well, please?

DT said he'll add my draft into his draft later on. It's not yet complete.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Working on adding stuff right now. Spotted the following line: "One should also consider the aspects of power-scaling as make-or-break factors."
I'm not quite sure what that means, so I removed it for now. Can (probably) add it back in once someone explains, though.

Similarly I'm not quite sure what this part is trying to say:
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for enhancing physical strength, thus it is acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy-based AP, provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist."
Is what this is saying: If you can amplify weapons with the energy of the universal energy source, it is fine to scale the weapons AP & durability to the character's SS & durability?
Or that if you can amplify weapons with your energy, your striking strength and durability can be scaled to your energy beams and stuff?
I don't quite get it, I think.

 

[KLOL506]

Working on adding stuff right now. Spotted the following line: "One should also consider the aspects of power-scaling as make-or-break factors."
I'm not quite sure what that means, so I removed it for now. Can (probably) add it back in once someone explains, though.

@Hellbeast was the one who suggested this so I can ask him.

Similarly I'm not quite sure what this part is trying to say:
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for enhancing physical strength, thus it is acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy-based AP, provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist."
Is what this is saying: If you can amplify weapons with the energy of the universal energy source, it is fine to scale the weapons AP & durability to the character's SS & durability?
Or that if you can amplify weapons with your energy, your striking strength and durability can be scaled to your energy beams and stuff?
I don't quite get it, I think.

This one is all @GilverTheProtoAngelo so I can ask him this too.

 

[Hellbeast]

Basically the intent with that is just to consider the traditional outlier or not discrimination when looking at this stuff iirc

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Similarly I'm not quite sure what this part is trying to say:
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for enhancing physical strength, thus it is acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy-based AP, provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist."
Is what this is saying: If you can amplify weapons with the energy of the universal energy source, it is fine to scale the weapons AP & durability to the character's SS & durability?
Or that if you can amplify weapons with your energy, your striking strength and durability can be scaled to your energy beams and stuff?
I don't quite get it, I think.

The 2nd part, but I think there was some more context to it. But it's been so long....that I kind of forgot. I'll search my brain if there was anything important in 24hrs. If I don't come back with anything new in that time. You can do with it whatever you feel necessary.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have some other comments on the Non-Physical and Limited Energy System parts, which appears to be a split/distinction of the levels of "Semi-Universal" power sources. But I'd prefer to tackle them tomorrow or the day after. I have to sleep and I need to wake up early for work tomorrow since it's going to be a Sunday.

 

[KLOL506]

The 2nd part, but I think there was some more context to it. But it's been so long....that I kind of forgot. I'll search my brain if there was anything important in 24hrs. If I don't come back with anything new in that time. You can do with it whatever you feel necessary.

Is it this?

Fair enough. But even then I'd oppose removal of weapon classification as a criteria, we can make it supplementary since majority of versee I see still follow the supposition I made originally. There will always be some exceptions or minorities which deviate from rule. But something must remain as a guideline for majority. I would like to keep it as pointer at least if not a supplementary criterion.
Something along the lines of..
"Most verses which use energy amplification on external objects show this as a subset of energy manipulation which can be used for physical strength enhancements, it's acceptable to scale striking strength and durability of one's self to energy AP provided such context exists even if direct evidence of physical amplification doesn't exist".

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ahh thanks for that kick!!

So yeah, I remember now...
Basically there are verses where having energy inside body amps you, even tho you don't actively bring it out to amplify your arms and stuff. For example Chakra from Naruto.

There are other verses out there such as this, where visual evidence cannot be produced for body amplification process, since well ya know its invisible process.

Energy Manipulation can be a technique to give yourself an extra amplification above the passive power which is provided by energy inside your body, I mentioned above Chakra for example.
But since weapons aren't physical part of body, they need said energy amplification.
But since its usually one of the only evidences such verses can provide.... it makes fair for such verses to qualify for UES based on energy weapon amplification alone, privided contextual evidence exists that energy in general amplifies your body, even if you cannot privide visual/direct evidence for latter.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Basically the intent with that is just to consider the traditional outlier or not discrimination when looking at this stuff iirc

Ah, ok. So just the obligatory warning regarding inconsistencies. Got it.

Ahh thanks for that kick!!

So yeah, I remember now...
Basically there are verses where having energy inside body amps you, even tho you don't actively bring it out to amplify your arms and stuff. For example Chakra from Naruto.

There are other verses out there such as this, where visual evidence cannot be produced for body amplification process, since well ya know its invisible process.

Energy Manipulation can be a technique to give yourself an extra amplification above the passive power which is provided by energy inside your body, I mentioned above Chakra for example.
But since weapons aren't physical part of body, they need said energy amplification.
But since its usually one of the only evidences such verses can provide.... it makes fair for such verses to qualify for UES based on energy weapon amplification alone, privided contextual evidence exists that energy in general amplifies your body, even if you cannot privide visual/direct evidence for latter.

Huh, I see. Honestly, I never even had the idea that visual showings of amplification would be something necessary. (I mean, it kinda screws over all books)
Statements should be enough. I will think about how to incorporate this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Being an "External Source" isn't really an argument against being universal. The Force from Star Wars is technically external rather than internal since it comes from the surrounding environment rather than the body of the Jedi and Sith, but it is them who controls the energy and flexible enough to be considered universal. But the coming from a McGuffin artifact for instance also technically wouldn't invalidate it from being universal per say, but it could be argued as a feat for said artifact rather than the wielder and it may be assumed they only scale when holding on to said artifact. Unless of course characters without said artifact have reason to upscale from uses of said artifact.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much to everybody who are helping out here.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

So the main criteria and supplementary criteria about removal of energy source being harmful to the user has been added, but has the active/passive usage criteria been added? And what about the Inelligible Criteria and Notes and separate energy sources used by different characters and their scaling shenanigans (Like Doctor Strange's Magic and Odin's Odinforce and that type of stuff)?

Also I think a bullet-pointed structure will make the reading a bit easier.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I recall, DontTalk is currently working on this, but he has limited time available.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, so this would be my finished draft for now.
I unified some stuff and reduced some redundancies. E.g. no point having one section for the rules of weapons regarding energy systems and another explaining the same in reverse. (i.e. when weapons do not apply for energy systems)

 

[KLOL506]

Alright, so this would be my finished draft for now.
I unified some stuff and reduced some redundancies. E.g. no point having one section for the rules of weapons regarding energy systems and another explaining the same in reverse. (i.e. when weapons do not apply for energy systems)

Looks a lot better than last time.

So lemme confirm some things:

Limited Energy Systems are systems where the supernatural attacks don't scale to either physical attacks nor to the other supernatural powers, and the supernatural attacks are basically reserved as their own thing, and where if there are two energy systems (Chi and Magic for example) being used by the character they're not scaled to each other, Chi stuff scales only to Chi and Magic stuff scales only to Magic.

A Non-Physical Energy System is where the supernatural attacks don't scale to physical strength but still scales to all other applications of supernatural powers.

And Universal Energy System is where the Supernatural attacks pretty much scale to everything else, both physical strength and other supernatural attacks.

I get it right?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Limited Energy Systems are systems where the supernatural attacks don't scale to either physical attacks nor to the other supernatural powers, and the supernatural attacks are basically reserved as their own thing.

It scales to some supernatural attacks, but not all supernatural attacks. Like, Level 10 spells scale to other Level 10 spells, but not to Level 5 spells. Or magic scales to other magic, but not to chi. Neither scales to physicals.

A Non-Physical Energy System is where the supernatural attacks don't scale to physical strength but still scales to all other applications of supernatural powers.

Yes.

And Universal Energy System is where the Supernatural attacks pretty much scale to everything else, both physical strength and other supernatural attacks.

Correct.

 

[KLOL506]

Gotcha.