Universal Energy Systems

[KLOL506]

Can somebody explain the fundaments of the discussion and our conclusions so far here in an easy to understand manner please? I no longer remember it well.

Basically the proposal of making a page for Universal Power Sources that explain (Not sure if I worded that right) the existence of various energy sources in fiction that characters use for a myriad of feats, said page including some criteria for what qualifies or doesn't qualify for such a power source.

We're actually still waiting for DontTalk and Ogbunabali to respond to offer better suggestions to modifying the draft before any conclusion can be reached.

Ogbunabali said he was still busy writing up a modification for the page which I could then apply so there's that.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically the proposal of making a page for Universal Power Sources that explain (Not sure if I worded that right) the existence of various energy sources in fiction that characters use for a myriad of feats, said page including some criteria for what qualifies or doesn't qualify for such a power source.

We're actually still waiting for DontTalk and Ogbunabali to respond to offer better suggestions to modifying the draft before any conclusion can be reached.

Ogbunabali said he was still busy writing up a modification for the page which I could then apply so there's that.

Thank you.

@DontTalkDT @Ogbunabali

Would you be willing to help us out here please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@DontTalkDT @Ogbunabali

Do you still have thoughts here, based on what was updated last?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody post a link to the current draft please? So this discussion turns easier for others to overview and evaluate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First things, first. I did say the worst case scenario is that each and every single verse can have their own blog post explaining their own individual universal power sources/universal energy systems/connected energy manipulation source/ect. Or we can make one blog post explaining the general ideas of what it is and a list of blue prints and pointers as opposed to uber strict rules with it. But that's what KLOL and HellBeast are doing; making them informative pointers rather than mandatory rules so the people complaining about the topic are basically just getting unreasonably temperamental over something not so much a big deal. If anything, they're the exact opposite of uber strict rules, as it's just giving more depth clarifications on the exceptions to the already existing rules. But I will go over what Universal Power Source is including that name first. And will go over some other facts IRL no less that actually make it more accurate, or at least more reasonable, than people give it credit for.

Just getting a list of examples out of the way before we move on to the main topic. If we decide to go against making a page or general blog posts that gets linked to a lot of profiles. Regarding blog posts, this is what we could do as either an alternative or addition.

• Dragon Ball has its own blog post for Ki Control/Manipulation elaborating details, also explaining Godly Ki and Ki of Destruction and what not.
• Saint Seiya has its own blog post for Cosmos power explaining there many different varieties of powers and abilities including but not limited to how their Sub-Atomic matter manipulation scales to other powers such as striking strength.
• Naruto has its own blog post explaining Chakra in an elaborate format of details.
• Yu Yu Hakusho has its own blog post elaborating Reiki and Maki and how they both function universally.
• Bleach has its own blog post for Reishi and Kishi in the same vein above.
• Golden Sun has its own page explaining what Psynergy is and explaining how it all functions universally and why their magical powers/summons scales to physicals.
• Alchemy from Full Metal Alchemist series could have its own page mentioning the flexibility and limitations of it.
• Avatar: The Last Airbender could use one for how the nature of bending and everyone making use of Chi to control the elements.
• Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade has a page explaining Ether and explaining how all of their powers including physical strikes scale from one another from their elemental powers and what not.
• Devil May Cry already has one for Demonic Energy system.
• Dark Souls already has one.
• I heard plans that Assassin's Creed also has something like that.
• Plenty of game verses mention their own respective Magic Systems.
  • God of War already has one
  • Final Fantasy series can elaborate extensively on this as summons are used and amped by the summoners
  • Fire Emblem having magic tomes for respective feats, but it's the potency of the caster that holds most of the weight. And explanations can include examples of top tiers being stronger with basic tomes than fodder characters are with advanced tomes.
  • Earthbound/Mother has a system for PSI/PK for all their various techniques that function similar to magic systems and elemental attacks.
  • Willpower from Fable series has a Willpower source that is used to interchangeably cast various spells and amp physical stats.
• And the list can go on for there.

Anyway, a Universal Power Source has less to do it being a thing that every in verse character has and more to do with specific characters who possess and/or have the functionalities who are able to universally transmute or drive energy whether internal or external into a wide variety of powers and abilities that otherwise require at the very least effecting energy with some kind of control. Keep in mind that "Energy Manipulation" or "Ergokinesis" is an extremely flexible term where a multitude of sub actions counts as manipulating or influencing energy. Both importing energy and extracting energy are the exact same thing and same type of energy manipulation but just the opposite direction. Just like pushing a boulder and pulling a boulder is basically the same feat, so is that former example.

Now as for internal energy or external energy, that status of the universal power source being internal or external isn't the part that is relevant in determining whether or not it is universal. The pool of energy doesn't need to be inside you for it to scale to your AP. For example, we have characters who possess an infinite pool of energy built in them, but not capable of harnessing it into a single Ki Blast or punch. So they're not High 3-A, they just have infinite stamina. Likewise, there are characters who are 100% biologically human and don't have much internal energy inside them naturally, but are able to basically borrow energy from the universe and use it to heighten their physical striking power. They have striking strength on that level as well as durability when active. Though, it should be noted that those using external energy manipulation may or may not have more weaknesses compared to those with internal energy manipulation. It often requires a lot more concentration and may deplete something referred to as "Mental Energy" among other things. And said characters could be prone to having a "Durability drops exponentially when distracted" type of weakness. And to be fair, there are also plenty of verses with internal universal power sources that also share this weakness; aka Dragon Ball, Naruto, ect. But Star Wars is a perfect example of external energy sources being universal. Also, another side note, characters and objects that are just extremely durable or have extremely high heat capacities in general require having extensive amounts of fusion energy inside them. But while fusion energy is an important topic to discuss later for another topic, I don't think there's a proper way to calculate how much fusion energy is in most high tiered characters without getting into calc stacking territory. But it's still worth bringing up.

Another important note I listed is of course the name. I have said Universal "Power Source" sounds a lot better than Universal "Energy System" for good reason. "Energy System" very much implies it has to be something everyone in verse has to be called that or better yet that it has to be an energy substance. When in actuality, it doesn't really. It can be an abstract function that enables the ability to control flow of energy rather than it being energy itself. Keep in mind, there are verses where the "Universal Power Source" is simply digital data, but it meets all the functions and requirements that Ki or Chakra have. Prime examples being characters from Digimon and characters from Mega Man, and Samus Aran and her clones such as SA-X also have this same Universal Power Source. And of course, the most commonly complained universal power sources that have the most generic names are of course various magic systems. I'll explain that in another paragraph of this post but they can be a universal power source but there are also "Semi-Universal" Power Sources and some magic that lacks power sources. But each magic system is heavily case by case and not always meant to be confused with Ki/Chakra since Ki is not magic. There's also a lot of conflict on whether or not McGuffin Artifacts can be considered Universal Power Sources, which is also case by case for the same reason magic is, but "Power Source" definitely sounds better than "Energy System" when talking about those. DontTalkDT also mentioned being called "Connected" Energy System/Power Source rather than "Universal". Which I'm more neutral on replacing "Universal" with "Connected" or "Interchangeable Power Source" also could work. If we can't decide, we could mention all its names near the beginning of the blog, but we definitely should say "Power Source" rather than "Energy System". And especially sounds better when mentioning feats that are measured in Watts as opposed to Joules. Though, I think "Semi-Universal" sounds better than "Semi-Connected" or "Semi-Interchangeable" so I prefer Universal as a 1st word. But Power Source > Energy System for reasons mentioned above.

Now for the real main event. People are asking why they need a page or a blog post? It's because in both our Creation Feats page as well as our Environmental Destruction page and is eventually going to be essential once the heat Vs blunt force trauma clarifications are made. "Universal Power Source" is mentioned in both pages which may cause readers to ask, "What is a Universal Power Source?" Which an explanation of some kind would still be helpful for those. And it's a lot more detailed than just saying "Ki from Dragon Ball" or "Chakra from Naruto". When there are plenty verses that have stuff like that not called Ki or Chakra and what not. But something more generally detailed whether it be a blog post or a page would still be more helpful in the long run. It might need to be linked on the attack potency page, and said section could also list a couple things commonly effected during the absence of a universal power source. You know, environmental destruction, creation feats, stabilization feats, multiple universes merging feats, large scale existence erasure feats, temperature feats, chemical energy/fusion energy manipulation/creation/production, or magic/elemental feats that exclude melee attacks from the "Semi-Universal" Power Source, ect. And it's also worth separating universal power sources from the semi-universal ones as mentioned many times above. You know, Ki from Dragon Ball is an obvious Universal Power Source where as Quirks from MHA are only Semi-Universal in which Fire, Water, Wind, Ice, and Electricity powers scale interchangeably but physical striking strength is not on the list of things that are scaled.

Going off a memory backup, reading over Agnaa's posts, he made it clearly he has no problems against universal power sources and after hearing a multitude of arguments in the past such as "Extracting energy is still manipulation energy", "Moving multiple megatons of thermal energy from the clouds would still require Tier 7 levels of energy manipulation", and another one brought up is "The manipulation of X joules of negative energy is inherently equally potent as manipulating X joules of positive energy". Those were all things I talked with Agnaa via message walls and he basically agreed that verses that specifically have detailed universal power sources should pretty much equalize all forms of characters regularly/casually having "X tiered energy manipulation" whether it be importing energy, extracting energy, having 1 to 1 full control over the conversion kinetic energy into potential energy back and forth to one another with ease, all being used with the same X tiered levels of energy manipulation for striking strengths should logically scale 1 to 1. His main issue was specifically creation feats with other mentioned details. It's already acknowledged that even with universal power sources in play, there exist characters who possess some kind of final attack that otherwise forces the user to drain nearly all their stamina/energy or better yet be a suicide attack that should logically not scale to their their normal attacks. It's possible for downscaling to some extent to be applied, but downscaling has always been a rather iffy topic yeah. And in Agnaa's eyes, he's welcome to basically correct me if I'm wrong since I can't actually speak for him for obvious reasons. But he basically appears to think most creation feats should be seen as a "Final Explosion" scenario or treated similarly to how suicide attacks are treated unless there's more in depth about the specific creation feats being casual.

Also, another common argument that's often being abused is stuff like "Universal Energy Systems such as magic or ki manipulation are not a thing IRL". First of all, those really shouldn't be spoken as RL stuff are basically subjective topics that can fall into religious controversy status. This is kind of repeating the existence of supernatural deities of higher power, souls, causality, ect, and should probably be a dropped topic ASAP. But anyway, we aren't talking about RL here, we are talking about something extremely common in fiction here. So saying "This isn't a thing IRL" is never a good argument for supernatural stuff like this. Furthermore, I can understand the magic argument since most IRL magic is a fancy word for art of deception similar to what professional magicians do as well as what historical witches and sorcerers actually did IRL. But Ki/Chi/Qi actually is a terminology IRL that originated from Indian philosophy and taught in a wide variety of martial arts classes such as Kung Fu and Tai Chi. It's also taught in Yoga classes and pretty much all martial arts classes have something described as "Fighting Spirit". Well, some of those things actually do have scientific accuracy; such as in Tae Kwon Do the instructors are always telling their students things like "Always K'ihap loud every time you either hit hard, or take a hit because it builds fighting spirit". Which scientific studies do state that shouting really loud during a martial arts fight does increase the strength of your punches and kicks, it builds the momentum to strike faster, and you also get hurt a lot less in the process at the same time. Though, scientists are going to say, that the kinetic energy of your shouts does help emphasis the kinetic energy of your strikes. It also effects your brain cells to become more active, then gets channeled throughout your neural network. Your blood molecules flow, your muscles thicken, your bones get tougher. All of this is energy, which is often called Ki/Chi in various martial arts. So ki is the thermal energy of your blood? the fusion energy that makes the calcium in your bones harder? the energy in the amino acids that build muscles? The fusion energy in the water you drink or air to inhale? To answer all of that, it's quite obviously all of the above. And kinetic energy in general also does double as like an electromagnetic field to increase endurance and pain tolerance and arguably durability. Hence kicking a wooden board without breaking it hurts a lot, but when you kick hard enough to break it; it doesn't hurt. So at the end of the day, Ki/Chi/Qi is just another name for energy. Which is exactly what pretty much every Shounen verse and the like keeps telling us.

For more information, one really can't say that "Universal energy" isn't a thing IRL when energy is technically universal IRL. As far as the laws of thermodynamics are concerned, matter cannot be created or destroyed. Though, it is Einstein's theory on Mass-Energy that says otherwise. Though, keyword being theory rather than fact, but there are fictional stories that treat it as fact. But we only use the E = MC^2 formula for feats that specifically state Mass-Energy for a reason. And the same thing applies to energy; amount of energy in the universe is always static since it can only be converted rather than birthed or erased. That was before Hawking's theory on Positive and Negative Energy. It requires importing X joules of Negative Energy to lower the amount of Positive Energy in the universe by X Joules, like wise importing positive energy to delete negative energy. On the contrary, positive energy and/or negative energy needs to be extracted from each other to create energy. So hypothetically speaking, deleting energy and producing energy out of nothing would still be the same thing and still be AP. But we only of course calculate that if we can prove energy is deleted/created. But even so, thermal energy is used as kinetic energy to get a car running when you burn gasoline. And it's also possible to turn kinetic energy back into potential energy, just extremely difficult to and requires much more precision. And I have already mentioned Fusion Energy which a lot more details are going to be mentioned in another thread. But a lot of objects that have extremely high density or extremely high heat specific capacity, or are just extremely durable in general have heavy amounts of fusion energy. Having heavy amounts of fusion energy get greatly lower the specific temperature by otherwise greatly increasing the specific heat capacity. Compare an object that takes Megatons of thermal energy just to raise it a few degrees compared to an object that takes little amounts of joules to raise it by a couple million degrees. The former has a lot of fusion energy while the latter barely has any. Normally, the colder water already was, the longer and/or more intense refrigeration it takes to freeze it. But extremely hot water has been known to get cold faster than room temperature water due to "Loosing most of its mass/density" and also its heat capacity in the process. But also because boiling water in an open container can cause a great deal of its fusion energy to be extracted. The same water/ice would also melt/vaporize faster since the lower density and heat capacity would mean the specific temperature raises faster. But cold water does not boil faster because while the initial endothermic reaction feels faster initially, the pot is also initially getting colder faster than it heats up compared to if you put already warm water in the pot. And in the end, it requires a lot more thermal energy to add. Likewise, attempting to freeze hotter water is also the same in which it requires removing more thermal energy. Unless the water has already been heated to the point of having fusion energy extracted. But I'm not ready to tackle these full topics but it's in my other draft. Article here for slight details on the process albeit no mention of fusion energy. But, there are plenty of articles mentioning seawater as a definitive source of fusion energy.

Also, it should be noted that every feat that involves Atomization and Sub-Atomic Destruction are also more or less the exact same thing as extracting energy. Since in order to successfully destroy someone or something on an atomic level or above, there's a lot of fusion energy connecting their massive body of atoms and molecules in massive counting quantities. And value to extract them would simply result in change in temperature or other destruction methods without actually separating the atomic structure. And it's only many times greater for Sub-Atomic destruction. Every single atom and molecule in the body has a surprisingly exceptional amount of fusion energy for their otherwise extremely simal size. And when counting them all together, we get things such as causing small scale explosions ending up with tiers comparable to multiple nukes. Sub-Atomic explosions just have that much higher energy; and it's an energy extraction feat that requires using a lot energy manipulation much like how other feats involving conductivity work.

And regarding "Chemical Energy" and "Energy Density" this was also a touched topic, but there is a big difference between combustible chemical energy and noncombustible chemical energy. Gasoline, Jet Fuel, Alcohol, and many other chemicals are prime examples of combustible energy. The energy density of gasoline is 32 MJ/L, what that means is that for every liter of gas that ignites, there is 32 megajoules of thermal energy that scatters in the combustion. And same with burning gas to get a vehicle running, the volume or mass of gasoline correlates to how much kinetic energy is being generated by the vehicle's movement. But then we have noncombustible chemical energy, which is what things like water, air, liquid nitrogen, and seawater all have. Yes, blowing up a gas tank with a cigarette is a chain reaction and does not take much energy manipulation to do. But forcing a body of noncombustible energy into being extracted cannot be a chain reaction and requires some outside force driving it. For example, when a character is freezing a glass of water in the inside of a volcano. Realistically, unless there's someone who has really strong levels of energy manipulation/concentration, the atmosphere alone should be heating/vaporizing the water faster than anything could cool it down. Forcing an object to cause an exothermic reaction faster than the environment can force object meant to perform an endothermic reaction to do so still requires influence from a character with stronger energy manipulation than the environment. Especially if the character literally froze the object so cold, that the lava isn't even hot enough to melt it. Hence is the case with most characters with Ice and Cloud manipulations as Agnaa mentioned the latter above as well as what he said back in summer 2020 in message walls while debating another user. Though, I cannot vouch if he remembers entirely but I could be wrong.

Here's the question everyone has been asking me. Am I saying that "All verses have a universal power source that must be followed?" To be perfectly frank, no I do not. In fact, most general verses lack the abilities and capabilities. Just because Energy is technically universal IRL, I have also mentioned it is beyond human limitations by their own powers and even with the technology we have so far. And not every verse is cosmic in nature and most of them aren't. Plenty of Crime Dramas, Detective Novels, First Person Shooter games, Survival Horror games, Slasher Horror movies, Cinematic Action movies, and even Sci-Fi verses (Excluding ones that are a Fantasy mixed with Sci-Fi) lack the existence of supernatural powers, entities, cosmologies, ect to also make use of it. They tend to be down to earth with the exception of drug enhanced super soldiers, zombified serial killers, space marines on cybernetic enhancements, and otherwise normal people who happen to just have amazing amounts of per dumb luck. A lot of those genre verses are actually quite down to earth and doesn't try to equalize all the dozens of different attack types. And even the superhuman feats are mostly lackluster in these genres. But it's Shounen Verses, RPGs (Western included but especially Japanese), Fantasy Verses, and the Uber Complex Sci-Fi verses with Fantasy elements mixed in them especially that utilize all these principles. And I'm not saying every single verse in the common fantasy example genres have universal power sources nor am I saying every single verse from the common nonfantasy genres do not. Just that to each their own but acknowledging common tropes. The wacky cartoonish verses and superhero comics are especially case by case. And it's more about executional stand point rather than a conceptual standpoint. But I will make other things clear for verses that lack universal power sources.

For all the more down to earth verses that tend to be more secular in nature, the other separation of energy attacks, specifically details on heat vs blunt force trauma will be made not linearly related. Especially when regarding the durability required to survive said attacks. I have already made my gripes made when people try to abuse loopholes in every corner for power scaling various First Person Shooter games. One of the most common attempts I hear is basically scaling the entire verse from some plasma weapon rated as 9-A based on the standard human body vaporization calculation (And sometimes Tier 8 if multiples bodies and/or giant characters are involved). And this is despite the fact that everybody killing each other with ordinary bullets ranging from 9-C to 9-B is the most consistent thing in said verses both in gameplay and in canon. Or better yet that 9-B sniper rifles, hand grenades and rocket launchers consistently things that do more damage both in gameplay and canon to most characters or other loopholes is "Those explosive weapons oneshot vehicles while the 9-A/Tier 8 Plasma weapons don't". It could just all be game mechanics is the most simple approach to tackle it all. But outside if that, it likely just means it takes a considerably far greater amount of thermal energy to melt most solid objects or at least overheat them to the point of being bendy compared to the amount of overpressure required to fragment or better yet pulverize the same objects. It takes only 20 Joules to 90 Joules per cubic centimeter to fragment and pulverize respectively. But the thermal energy equivalent is just raising the temperature by 5.55 degrees C and 25 degrees C respectively. It takes more energy to heat up iron to standard cooking stove temperature (From 20 degrees to 70 degrees C making it a 50 degree change) than it does to pulverize iron two times over with pure force. Steel and Titanium are several times tougher, but even so. It is consistent that M6 Abrams can get destroyed by 9-B to 9-A rocket launchers despite being able to absorb Tier 8 levels of thermal energy without suffering overly critical damage. And this is made more apparent for things like glass and water. Both have more heat capacity but much less durability than solid steel. Though, by friction, a megaton punch would still produce megatons of thermal energy via how atoms and molecule kinetic energy works; but whether it's via extreme temperature or just really high heat capacity is a different story that neither could be calculated individually. I also brought up gas explosions, swimming in gasoline requires very little durability. And while ignited gas does produce the pool of energy; the durability required to survive extreme heat is limited on a list of factors.

• Heat capacity needs to be taken into account
• Specific temperature
• Thermal Equilibrium of the target
• Surface Area and Volume of the target
• Emissivity of the target
• And most importantly, the watts or joules/s measured for the heating process and timeframe the extreme heat lasting

All of this serves to make tanking heat based attacks much less impressive than it looks. On top of that, it's still not evidence that it would scale to how much blunt force trauma one withstands. And thus, it would all end up being barebones durability. And of course, I already mentioned that all weapons should be calculated separately. I already have another WIP thread for why 90% if military weapons from most military heavy verses should not be allowed in a powerscaling chain and simply calculated from their own feats, calculations, scientific properties ect. Because each modern weapon is designed for a very specific purpose whether it be a sniper rifle, assault rifle, shotgun, flamethrower, stun gun, Taser, tranquilizer, plasma rifle, ect. But that's it for now and should be discussed else well later.

KLOL has also told me that DontTalkDT is working on some more clarifications for lightning feats; although he prefers not to be constantly messaged about it iirc. In most cases, it doesn't apply to durability either unless the target has like little amounts of flesh and what not. And it's actually possible for lightning bolts to have heavy amounts of blunt force trauma and what not under specific circumstances. Though, I will wait for the actual thread of clarifications to truly testify this. But it's also another thing covered in universal power sources, that summoning an intense lightning bolt is still an AP feat and could be linked one to one with other elemental attacks and even physical attacks under the informed conditional branches.

Outliers and Inconsistencies as they were brought up and argued, "Are they a thing IRL?" I better get those out of the way. But irl, it usually means it is just a severed body part; if I cut of my left hand, that left hand is my outlier. Or it can also mean a person or thing isolated from the main group. For example, 78 is not a squared number, it putting it on a list of Squared numbers looking like this {1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, <B>78</B>, 81, 100}. The 78 is your outlier. But IRL, the word Outlier has nothing to do with feats or "antifeats". If someone successfully lifted 1000lbs, but hasn't even lifted half of that ever since. The Guinness World Records aren't going to remove him from the list of 1000lb lifting champions and pass it as an outlier. Doing it once in your life alone makes you in the champion list. Same with people commiting murder; committing murder at least once in someone's life makes them a murderer for the rest of their life. Supreme Court can't just pass a serious crime as an outlier just because the only did it once despite with the reason being that they did so many good things and never committed a serious crime up until then. But by all this logic, busting a planet makes you a planet buster; doesn't matter how often you do it. If you did it, you are the that title. I'm <B>not</B> saying "Outliers aren't a thing" or that it "shouldn't be a policy." In fact it should, otherwise a few notable verses especially Marvel and DC comics would just be a bunch of loopholes within loopholes. Only that they tend to be grossly overused and 9 out of 10 times, it is typically just an excuse to play pretend when it comes to feats happening. Not to mention lower end feats are often casual for a lot of high tiered characters or isn't even trying to cause destruction. And of course, fodder characters randomly surviving things that otherwise annihilated all their peers and thus survived due to nothing but pure dumb luck are also prone to being outliers. But regardless, Outliers and Inconsistencies IRL have nothing to do with feats or powerscaling/Power Crunching, which in itself isn't a thing IRL.

And I think that just about wraps up everything I think needs to be said on this thread specifically. Of course there are plenty of topics that have a lot more to elaborate upon mentioned, but going all of that will come as derailment. If users try tackling certain aspects of Universal Power Sources using uber long posts, they may get removed from this thread for derailment. We only needed the simple details of each simple aspect of when to use them and when not to use them. Already covered the case by case grounds that need to be laid out. It's got less to do what type of attack or what they're doing with their energy; Energy Manipulation is still Energy Manipulation regardless of direction. Machines and tools with very specific limits that are programmed/designed for a specific directional use will be limited to that specific use of AP. Where as a Universal Power source such as a universal ability to utilize all forms of elemental manipulation and channel it into any other power and ability including but not limited to superhuman physical characteristics. Whether it's something every in verse living entity has or just a selective few, or whether it is via internal energy source or external energy source, or whether it's actually do to energy or just a driving force are not the parts relevant. But the main topic here is, <B> whether or not we need a generalized page for it all. </B> I am perfectly fine one way or the other because there's all these different directions. Some people want one because we appear too lenient while others think we are too strict. At the same time, some people don't want them because it creates too many restrictions being too strict. While others don't want them because they also think we're too lenient or worst of all, have a mind set where only pure destruction feats should count as Attack Potency. I honestly think the people who are "Being too strict" are the ones in the greater wrong here overall, but both sides have had their share of bad moments. But I'm leaning towards KLOL and DontTalkDT being the most overall reasonable ones here in the long run regarding the topic. Plus, if we aren't making a page, the option to make a big list of blog posts or a general blog post that still gets linked to on various pages isn't out of the picture. Just take a pick.

• Universal/Connected Power Source General Guidelines and Instructions Page
• Universal/Connected Power Source General Guidelines and Instructions Blog Post
• Each and every verse that has a Universal/Connected Power Source gets their own blog post linked on Terminologies section of the Verse page.

The third point can still also be done in addition to one or the other of the 1st two, regardless of whether or not it gets accepted.

And also this.

 

[KLOL506]

Can somebody post a link to the current draft please? So this discussion turns easier to overview and evaluate.

DDM put it in his comment above. I'm still waiting for @Ogbunabali to pitch in his edit proposals.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think and/or agree with what here please?

Also, @DontTalkDT and @Ogbunabali , we would greatly appreciate further help from you here.

 

[KLOL506]

Can somebody write a tally of which staff members that think and/or agree with what here please?

The draft has been edited significantly since the last tallies, but...

The following staff agree to a page being made on the standards:

ByAsura, Colonel_Krukov, DarkDragonMedeus, KingTempest, ElixirBlue, Theglassman12, SamanPatou, Mr. Bambu, Ogbunabali (He proposed some edits be made, still waiting on that), LordGriffin1000, ElixirBlue, DueDate8898, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, Planck69, DemonGodMitchAubin, Celestial_Pegasus, UchihaSlayer69 and Shadowbokunohero.

AKM sama has issues with the creation of a page but basically agreed to the two mandatory criteria currently in the draft.

As for those who disagree: Antoniofer and Promestein (But she said that she doesn't care anymore at this point).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, it seems to have likely been accepted then.

What currently needs to be done here exactly?

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, it seems to have likely been accepted then.

What currently needs to be done here exactly?

Waiting for DontTalkDT and Ogbunabali to give further input as to how to further improve the criteria so that it's ready for prime-time as a new page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the replies.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Looks like I've written a reply but it wasn't sent sorry about that.

Due to my waning interest on the site, and increasing real life workload, I don't have a lot of motivation or energy to contribute much. Again, I apologize if the thread got stalled cause of me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate, but no problem.

 

[KLOL506]

Looks like I've written a reply but it wasn't sent sorry about that.

Due to my waning interest on the site, and increasing real life workload, I don't have a lot of motivation or energy to contribute much. Again, I apologize if the thread got stalled cause of me.

It's quite alright. Take the time you need. We're in no rush regardless.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You should continue the thread without me. I won't be responding any time soon, unfortunately.

 

[KLOL506]

You should continue the thread without me. I won't be responding any time soon, unfortunately.

Alright.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we currently need to do here in that case?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it's just DontTalkDT in that case whom we're waiting for.

 

[KLOL506]

I think it's just DontTalkDT in that case whom we're waiting for.

Yeah. That's all we have left.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we currently need to do here in that case?

I think it's just DontTalkDT in that case whom we're waiting for.

Yeah. That's all we have left.

Okay.

@DontTalkDT

We would appreciate some further help from you here.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask DontTalk to help us out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So is this the latest version?

At a glance, there are some weird things. (personally, I would also prefer if a universal energy system thing refers to not just magic to all physicals, but eh.)
Why is the ability to channel the power into a physical object a mandatory requirement? It's pretty irrelevant if you boost your physicals regardless. Proof of it seems like a very weird demand.
The supplementary criteria seems bad. Removing a sorcerers (or magical creatures) magic can be a dramatic loss or even kill them in many fictions. Doesn't support scaling to physicals to any extent.

As I said in my last post here I entirely disagree with this part.

If the energy system is generally shown to be to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse, it should help lessen the burden to prove that the energy system can be used to enhance both abilities and physical statistics to the same level. The most important aspect of this is that the energy source should generally be shown to be readily available and usable for all relevant abilities of the individual user of the energy source/system/type.

How common a power system is has absolutely no impact on scaling to physicals.

Similarly

If characters are generally shown to explicitly draw from singular sources/energy types/energy systems for their myriad of abilities, it would help lessen the burden to prove that the energy system can be used to enhance both abilities and physical statistics to the same level.

Unless some of those abilities are physical, I don't see how this would support the notion even slightly. The ability to use lots of different magic from your mana pool, doesn't indicate higher durability.

That also goes for

If the energy system is generally shown to have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or is shown to be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence that would help to further lessen the burden to prove the validity of scaling abilities and physical characteristics to the same level via an energy system (For example: The Force in Star Wars “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)

which really has no connection to physicals.

Those three parts seem like non sequitur to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out, DontTalk.

The suggested revisions probably have to be adjusted accordingly then.

 

[KLOL506]

So is this the latest version?

For now, yes.

At a glance, there are some weird things. (personally, I would also prefer if a universal energy system thing refers to not just magic to all physicals, but eh.)

Hmmmmm, we could certainly make improvements. What else do you want it to refer to? I already added in "Other capabilities" that are not just physicals.

Why is the ability to channel the power into a physical object a mandatory requirement? It's pretty irrelevant if you boost your physicals regardless. Proof of it seems like a very weird demand.

Weird, pretty sure we axed it from mandatory demand, seems like it should be changed to the "tapping into the weapon's power source" part instead instead.

The supplementary criteria seems bad. Removing a sorcerers (or magical creatures) magic can be a dramatic loss or even kill them in many fictions. Doesn't support scaling to physicals to any extent.

As I said in my last post here I entirely disagree with this part.

Kinda have to disagree here, many of such energy sources are explicitly shown to be the fuel that allow people to move their own bodies. But again, you don't need to qualify for this to scale.

How common a power system is has absolutely no impact on scaling to physicals.

Depends on whether the power system allows the energy to be scaled to physicals to begin with.

Similarly

If characters are generally shown to explicitly draw from singular sources/energy types/energy systems for their myriad of abilities, it would help lessen the burden to prove that the energy system can be used to enhance both abilities and physical statistics to the same level.

Unless some of those abilities are physical, I don't see how this would support the notion even slightly. The ability to use lots of different magic from your mana pool, doesn't indicate higher durability.

But aren't they tapping into the same mana pool for all their powers though?

That also goes for

If the energy system is generally shown to have a core underpinning to the verse’s metaphysical or natural elements and/or is shown to be tightly integrated into the verse’s lore, this would certainly be a helpful piece of evidence that would help to further lessen the burden to prove the validity of scaling abilities and physical characteristics to the same level via an energy system (For example: The Force in Star Wars “binding the universe together” and being tied to all life)

which really has no connection to physicals.

Not sure about that, if it's explicitly stated to be tied to all the elements in the verse, metaphysical and natural, chances are extremely high enhancing your own power level would fall right under it since they're generally related to life-force as well.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Why is the ability to channel the power into a physical object a mandatory requirement? It's pretty irrelevant if you boost your physicals regardless. Proof of it seems like a very weird demand.

I reckon you are referring to this?

Users need to have the capacity to use their powers to directly channel their power through their own bodies and physical objects in a way that quantifiably enhances them such as:

• Empowering the user’s own physical characteristics like striking strength, speed and durability, andtheir other powers and abilities, etc.
  • There must be statements or showings that the character's abilities (And their feats) also scale or is equal to their physical statistics and other supernatural powers and abilities via the energy system.
  • There must also be statements or showings that an increase in power/energy levels or that an increase in the amount of energy used from the energy system also relates to a proportional increase in their physical statistics. (A good example is Ki from Dragon Ball, where a higher amount of ki/power levels results in proportionally higher levels of physical punching strength, speed, durability and aerial capabilities)
• Empowering and enhancing weapons (Ki from Dragon Ball, Demonic Energy from Devil May Cry)

Well the first point it should be "OR" instead of "AND", I guess that fixxes the part. Its no longer mandatory that way.
2nd point is easily collapsible into "OR" physical objects blah blah, making it redundant.

The supplementary criteria seems bad. Removing a sorcerers (or magical creatures) magic can be a dramatic loss or even kill them in many fictions. Doesn't support scaling to physicals to any extent.

Examples so far show otherwise.

As I said in my last post here I entirely disagree with this part.

If the energy system is generally shown to be to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse, it should help lessen the burden to prove that the energy system can be used to enhance both abilities and physical statistics to the same level. The most important aspect of this is that the energy source should generally be shown to be readily available and usable for all relevant abilities of the individual user of the energy source/system/type.

How common a power system is absolutely no impact on scaling to physicals.

"Common" here means when used for variety of utilities, not "common" as in widespread among populace of living beings. One of utilities should include physical amplification of course.

Similarly

If characters are generally shown to explicitly draw from singular sources/energy types/energy systems for their myriad of abilities, it would help lessen the burden to prove that the energy system can be used to enhance both abilities and physical statistics to the same level.

Unless some of those abilities are physical, I don't see how this would support the notion even slightly. The ability to use lots of different magic from your mana pool, doesn't indicate higher durability.

I guess this is also readily collapsible into point above this stating "Common".

For the "metaphysical core underpinning" stuff I agree with Klol.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I reckon you are referring to this?

Well the first point it should be "OR" instead of "AND", I guess that fixxes the part. Its no longer mandatory that way.
2nd point is easily collapsible into "OR" physical objects blah blah, making it redundant.

"Or" would mean that chanelling into objects suffices alone, even without the ability channel into physicals at all. That seems wrong. The channeling into objects point just needs to be removed as it doesn't matter.

Examples so far show otherwise.

Examples don't prove a rule. Also, if you want a counter example, 1st Gear creatures in Owari no Chronicle will literally die if you remove the power of writing from them, yet their offensive use of that same power generally exceeds their physicals.

"Common" here means when used for variety of utilities, not "common" as in widespread among populace of living beings. One of utilities should include physical amplification of course.

I guess this is also readily collapsible into point above this stating "Common".

For the "metaphysical core underpinning" stuff I agree with Klol.

Don't see how the variety of abilities that are not physical amplification would in any way impact the decision, though. Either the physical amplification showings suffice alone or they don't. The variety makes no difference whatsoever.

Hmmmmm, we could certainly make improvements. What else do you want it to refer to? I already added in "Other capabilities" that are not just physicals.

For me a common energy system would be the underlying principle for the scaling between any two things for the reasoning of being powered by the same energy source. So a fire magic feat scaling to water magic would also be included. Including that would require to reformulate all criteria, though, as it wouldn't be about physical in particular anymore.

Kinda have to disagree here, many of such energy sources are explicitly shown to be the fuel that allow people to move their own bodies. But again, you don't need to qualify for this to scale.

You're commiting to an illicit contraposition here. Many A are B, doesn't imply (or support) the statement "Something B is also A". E.g. Many Fire Manipulation users have a hot temper. However, having a hot temper doesn't support the idea that someone has Fire Manipulation. (at least not to any relevant extent)

Many universal energy sources being vital, doesn't mean vital energy sources should be believed to be universal.

Depends on whether the power system allows the energy to be scaled to physicals to begin with.

But whether the power system scales to physicals is exactly what we are trying to figure out?

But aren't they tapping into the same mana pool for all their powers though?

A magician tapping into the same energy pool for all spells doesn't imply anything about their physicals. You would have to prove that their physicals are included into the things that tap into the mana pool for strength. However, that's exactly what the mandatory criteria states and has nothing to do with what how many other abilities they use.

Not sure about that, if it's explicitly stated to be tied to all the elements in the verse, metaphysical and natural, chances are extremely high enhancing your own power level would fall right under it since they're generally related to life-force as well.

Physics is tied to all elements in the universe, yet not everyone that uses physics in some way scales to all their offensive techniques. Or, why would a concept manipulators power over concepts, the most fundamental underlying principles of reality, have a relation to their physicals? Maybe if they could manipulate the concept of the own strength or something, but that's irrelevant speculation without such showings.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

"Or" would mean that chanelling into objects suffices alone, even without the ability channel into physicals at all. That seems wrong. The channeling into objects point just needs to be removed as it doesn't matter.

I have yet to come across an example where latter doesn't imply former.
Point of this criteria is if you can amplify an object or character external to yourself you should be good to scale.
There maybe cases where Amplifier may not be able to enforce one's own physicals due to maybe a weak body which overloads and break apart under strength of its own magic like for example V from DMC. This guy can amplify his summons fully from 7B to low2C but he himself is too weak to handle his own power. But even in that case it doesn't disqualify energy from being incapable of personal amplification under normal circumstances.

Examples don't prove a rule. Also, if you want a counter example, 1st Gear creatures in Owari no Chronicle will literally die if you remove the power of writing from them, yet their offensive use of that same power generally exceeds their physicals.

Is it some sort of energy or some unconventional ability which sustains and forms their offense?

Don't see how the variety of abilities that are not physical amplification would in any way impact the decision, though. Either the physical amplification showings suffice alone or they don't. The variety makes no difference whatsoever.

To show parity of strength among different abilities which more or less consume same amount of energy. Even if physical scaling is not on table, if fire ball uses 25 MP and ice ball uses 25 MP then they should have same AP.
Physical scaling isn't sole purpose of this blog, its purpose is showing connectivity among abilities using same/similar energy would get similar AP.

 

[KLOL506]

"Or" would mean that chanelling into objects suffices alone, even without the ability channel into physicals at all. That seems wrong. The channeling into objects point just needs to be removed as it doesn't matter.

'Kay, just keep the Weapon + Character Pair Energy Source point then.

Examples don't prove a rule. Also, if you want a counter example, 1st Gear creatures in Owari no Chronicle will literally die if you remove the power of writing from them, yet their offensive use of that same power generally exceeds their physicals.

Seems like an exception to me at a glance. Prolly some other mechanics in play that I don't know about.

Don't see how the variety of abilities that are not physical amplification would in any way impact the decision, though. Either the physical amplification showings suffice alone or they don't. The variety makes no difference whatsoever.

What Gilver said. It's more so about the parity and the versatility amongst different abilities.

For me a common energy system would be the underlying principle for the scaling between any two things for the reasoning of being powered by the same energy source. So a fire magic feat scaling to water magic would also be included. Including that would require to reformulate all criteria, though, as it wouldn't be about physical in particular anymore.

But isn't that already handled in part by the "other powers and capabilities" section tho? That already made scaling fire feats to water feats or wind feats as viable under a universal power system.

You're commiting to an illicit contraposition here. Many A are B, doesn't imply (or support) the statement "Something B is also A". E.g. Many Fire Manipulation users have a hot temper. However, having a hot temper doesn't support the idea that someone has Fire Manipulation. (at least not to any relevant extent)

That's a weird analogy to make using temper to connect to power.

Many universal energy sources being vital, doesn't mean vital energy sources should be believed to be universal.

We're not talking about considering all vital energy sources being universal tho. We're only applying the rule to energy sources that are truly determined to be universal in usage from the get-go.

But whether the power system scales to physicals is exactly what we are trying to figure out?

And it would serve as an enhancer to the mandatory criteria (If any enhancers of the like exist, that is). That part is already in the notes section as a result. Not that you need it anyway, just serves as some icing.

A magician tapping into the same energy pool for all spells doesn't imply anything about their physicals. You would have to prove that their physicals are included into the things that tap into the mana pool for strength. However, that's exactly what the mandatory criteria states and has nothing to do with what how many other abilities they use.

Once again tho, this serves as a support, not as a mandatory edict.

Physics is tied to all elements in the universe, yet not everyone that uses physics in some way scales to all their offensive techniques. Or, why would a concept manipulators power over concepts, the most fundamental underlying principles of reality, have a relation to their physicals? Maybe if they could manipulate the concept of their own strength or something, but that's irrelevant speculation without such showings.

Those are getting eerily specific I believe.

But, if you want an example of Concept Manip empowering you to ludicrous levels, look no further than to Power of Hope Kratos.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Physics is tied to all elements in the universe, yet not everyone that uses physics in some way scales to all their offensive techniques. Or, why would a concept manipulators power over concepts, the most fundamental underlying principles of reality, have a relation to their physicals? Maybe if they could manipulate the concept of the own strength or something, but that's irrelevant speculation without such showings.

We don't use and manipulate physics as much as we are slaves to it. Its something incorporeal which can't amplify ourselves with.
Whereas energy which acts as life force among the populace if a different deal.
Also you can use Concept for physical amplification if you are this too angry to die bald dude.

You're commiting to an illicit contraposition here. Many A are B, doesn't imply (or support) the statement "Something B is also A". E.g. Many Fire Manipulation users have a hot temper. However, having a hot temper doesn't support the idea that someone has Fire Manipulation. (at least not to any relevant extent)

Many universal energy sources being vital, doesn't mean vital energy sources should be believed to be universal.

That's why its supplementary criteria. It helps identify users said in cases of vital energy if they acale to physicals. Since loss of life force leads to loss of stamina and strength.
If it doesn't exist in verse then no harm done.
We move onto next criteria.

 

[Antoniofer]

To show parity of strength among different abilities which more or less consume same amount of energy. Even if physical scaling is not on table, if fire ball uses 25 MP and ice ball uses 25 MP then they should have same AP.

This may only be true if all the MP of the spell is assigned to the damage of the spell; as I commented earlier, is possible to spent additional MP in spell "add on", such like status effects inducement, augmented speed, homming effect, etc, in top of doing of causing conventional damage. As a counter argument example, see the destruction spells from ABF: Mystic Bolt (Lv 36) and Dome of Destruction (Lv 46); Dome of Destruction is more espensive Mystic Bolt in their equivalent spell degree, but Mystic Bolt is overall more powerful in the sense it cause more damage. Why then, it is less expensive? Most likely due Dome of Destruction being an AoE spell, causing overall more destruction and being capable of damaging more enemies at once.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This may only be true if all the MP of the spell is assigned to the damage of the spell; as I commented earlier, is possible to spent additional MP in spell "add on", such like status effects inducement, augmented speed, homming effect, etc, in top of doing of causing conventional damage. As a counter argument example, see the destruction spells from ABF: Mystic Bolt (Lv 36) and Dome of Destruction (Lv 46); Dome of Destruction is more espensive Mystic Bolt in their equivalent spell degree, but Mystic Bolt is overall more powerful in the sense it cause more damage. Why then, it is less expensive? Most likely due Dome of Destruction being an AoE spell, causing overall more destruction and being capable of damaging more enemies at once.

AoE is not often really an attribute which consumes more MP for more blast range in fiction. But your example isn't anti-feat either.
As long as damage done is proportional w.r.t to mana points consumed for Attack potency of blast in given cross-section across different spells. Its still follows UES.
Every UES is unique with depending own their quirks and different finesse efforts put up by wielders. So some special behavior here and their accross verses is admissible.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

DontTalkDT makes some good points that some of the things listed under "Mandatory requirements' might be double checked, but it sounds like KLOL might have forgot to remove things disagreed with being mandatory. But as for the "myriad of abilities" section. Perhaps reword as "Myriad of abilities that involve producing, conducting, driving, or displacing energy".

The last issue also sounds more like a game mechanics issue and otherwise case by case; energy intensity can be measured in Joules/cc or Watts/M^2 and what not. Attacks with less AoE but the same energy inherently have more energy pressure, but even that's not always consistent. And some would argue that even concentration uses up more stamina, and thus attacks with smaller AoE actually should be using up more energy. But Gilver already addressed other issues and agree with what he said.

Also, DontTalkDT, what are your thoughts on calling it Power Source rather than Energy System? As well as some differences between Power Sources that are actually Universal/connected and ones that are Semi-Universal?

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalkDT makes some good points that some of the things listed under "Mandatory requirements' might be double checked, but it sounds like KLOL might have forgot to remove things disagreed with being mandatory. But as for the "myriad of abilities" section. Perhaps reword as "Myriad of abilities that involve producing, conducting, driving, or displacing energy".

The last issue also sounds more like a game mechanics issue and otherwise case by case; energy intensity can be measured in Joules/cc or Watts/M^2 and what not. Attacks with less AoE but the same energy inherently have more energy pressure, but even that's not always consistent. And some would argue that even concentration uses up more stamina, and thus attacks with smaller AoE actually should be using up more energy. But Gilver already addressed other issues and agree with what he said.

Also, DontTalkDT, what are your thoughts on calling it Power Source rather than Energy System? As well as some differences between Power Sources that are actually Universal/connected and ones that are Semi-Universal?

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about Medeus' and KLOL's comments above?

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about Medeus' and KLOL's comments above?

@GilverTheProtoAngelo also massively assisted me in my endeavors here. To discount his comments would be a great shame.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. His points should preferably also be evaluated then.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have yet to come across an example where latter doesn't imply former.
Point of this criteria is if you can amplify an object or character external to yourself you should be good to scale.
There maybe cases where Amplifier may not be able to enforce one's own physicals due to maybe a weak body which overloads and break apart under strength of its own magic like for example V from DMC. This guy can amplify his summons fully from 7B to low2C but he himself is too weak to handle his own power. But even in that case it doesn't disqualify energy from being incapable of personal amplification under normal circumstances.

Examples, or lack thereof, don't proof rules. Just because you don't know a counterexample to something that doesn't mean that you can assume its a rule that holds for everyone. That would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, where you never find counterexamples because you just assume it's the case...
It's what is called an argument from ignorance, which should categorically eliminate it.

However, I can also just give you a counterexample. Shinjou from Owari no Chronicle can channel her willpower into her weapon to make it more powerful, allowing it to shoot High 7-A blasts. She herself is a normal human regardless, as she can't use that power for her own physical enhancement.

Is it some sort of energy or some unconventional ability which sustains and forms their offense?

Eh, both?

If you want more examples I can also add Skulduggery Pleasant verse to the list, where getting your magic attacked directly can kill you, yet most Sorcerers can't enhance their physicals in any way.

Or ToAru for that matter, where most magic works by refining lifeforce into mana. I shouldn't have to explain how losing lifeforce is rather problematic. Yet many magicians are glasscannons.

To show parity of strength among different abilities which more or less consume same amount of energy. Even if physical scaling is not on table, if fire ball uses 25 MP and ice ball uses 25 MP then they should have same AP.
Physical scaling isn't sole purpose of this blog, its purpose is showing connectivity among abilities using same/similar energy would get similar AP.

Then the entire blog needs to be rewritten, because the mandatory criteria isn't suited to determine whether ice magic scales to fire magic in the slightest. That is entirely about physical scaling.
Although, even then the point would still need to be rewritten as how common it is isn't the supporting evidence here. Multiple different spells showing potency relative to the amount of power invested into them would be the evidence for that being a common pattern.

'Kay, just keep the Weapon + Character Pair Energy Source point then.

Wait, so how should it be put now?

Seems like an exception to me at a glance. Prolly some other mechanics in play that I don't know about.

Considering that all evidence to the rule was the lack of exceptions that's not a good counterargument. Also see above for more examples of the same.

But isn't that already handled in part by the "other powers and capabilities" section tho? That already made scaling fire feats to water feats or wind feats as viable under a universal power system.

But why would scaling to physicals be a mandatory requirement for scaling magic to each other?

The page is laid out to be about scaling magic to physicals. That's ok. Better not throw in the other as a sidenote and keep it to just scaling to physicals for now, even if it's a more specific case from the big general.

That's a weird analogy to make using temper to connect to power.

That's... the point. It demonstrates how using the style of invalid implication used in the argument one can make nonsensical connections.

We're not talking about considering all vital energy sources being universal tho. We're only applying the rule to energy sources that are truly determined to be universal in usage from the get-go.

So you're saying that you are only applying the argument that vital energy source are universal, to energy sources from which you already know that they are universal? What?

And it would serve as an enhancer to the mandatory criteria (If any enhancers of the like exist, that is). That part is already in the notes section as a result. Not that you need it anyway, just serves as some icing.

For it to serve as an enhancer it would first need to support the premise in some way. Which it doesn't.

Like, name me one scenario where adding that point makes a difference.

Once again tho, this serves as a support, not as a mandatory edict.

Again, tho, how can it support something if there is no connection between it and the premise it is supposed to support? Imagine I tried to say "Having Fire Manipulation" as supportive evidence for "Having Water Manipulation", as I have the impression that many characters have both. That's what that argument sounds like to me.

Those are getting eerily specific I believe.

But, if you want an example of Concept Manip empowering you to ludicrous levels, look no further than to Power of Hope Kratos.

And if you want an example of the opposite look no further than Noah and her Low Multiversal concepts.

This isn't an issue of whether it is possible for underlying principles of the universe to be used for physical enhancement, but whether it is something that necessarily, or at least in an overwhelming majority of all cases, would be the case.

We don't use and manipulate physics as much as we are slaves to it. Its something incorporeal which can't amplify ourselves with.

So you're saying the entire argument only works under the premise that the character in question has already proven the ability to physically enhance themselves with the fundamental power in question? That it is an application that is possible for it, other than being unable to manipulate the power for that purpose?

In other words, it's an argument that supports the premise if and only if we already know that the premise is true?

Also, DontTalkDT, what are your thoughts on calling it Power Source rather than Energy System? As well as some differences between Power Sources that are actually Universal/connected and ones that are Semi-Universal?

I don't care about names, if a clear definition follows them up.

What do you mean with Semi-Universal?

 

[Hellbeast]

Do we have a tally of where everyone stands