Undertale Player Low 1-C Downgrade

[PrinceofPein]

I am done reading through the OP and also the upgrade thread and I need to agree the upgrade should never have happened.
Seeing something as data does not mean Higher D and the fact that the data can interact with you means further that no ontological difference

 

[ZeedKZ]

Agree FRA as data is not 2-D due to being made of electrical impulses. Chara transcending themselves is also weird.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This thread seems to have ignored all our reality>fiction and ontological standards. The arguments in this thread if accepted would also yeet tier 2, the reason the player is Low 1-C is because the 'Video Game' isn't just 'data' it's it's own universe/timeline. Transcending this in such a maner as the player does is a clear cut example of Low 1-C to me.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wait aren't we literally getting a special ending by affecting data?

Not quite what I meant. Strym's argument, as far as I can tell, is that the people in the Undertale universe (Along with the universe itself) are literally, physically electrical signals (He can correct me on this if I'm wrong), and that the Player is as such just finitely larger than the gameworld, instead of there being any ontological difference between them. I retorted by saying that computer data being showcased as an element of the gameworld means nothing insofar as his argument goes, and that one could apply the same logic to other types of Reality-Fiction interactions.

For instance, using that logic you could argue a character who perceives an entire universe as being a story in a book is finitely larger than said universe, because it's just letters on a page (Made of either ink or graphite) to them. This is obviously not how we treat R-F Interactions in general (i.e References to the physical mediums through which fictional stories are told don't necessarily invalidate a scenario from being a R-F interaction). That's what I meant in the post above.

Chara literally destroys the game deleting all its files on screen. That's more than enough evidence.

It really isn't, no. As said before, the logic you are using also applies to every kind of reality-fiction interactions. You could invalidate R-F Interactions by saying "This character just sees this universe as ink on a page." You could invalidate R-F Interactions by saying "This character just sees this universe as electrical impulses in their brain (dreams, or thoughts)." You could even invalidade them by saying "This character just sees this universe as pixels on a Television screen." None of these arguments actually apply if the fictional setting is shown to be an actual reality that exists on its own in some level, which is certainly the case with Undertale.

This is an aspect of your point that confuses me a bit, as well: Are you saying the characters are literally just electrical signals, objectively, even from their own point of view? Instead of beings of solid matter, are they literally made of data? Like, say, this chick is? Is the Player just so large that the 2-B multiverse is like electricity running inside of their computer? Despite, of course, it physically, objectively not being so for obvious reasons.

And I claim that literal data is not infinitely lower, as data characters are 10-C, not 11-A here. Seeing as datas is not evidence for dimensional gap, just size gap. And they are not the literal player, no one has ever said that and if that was accepted it should be changed because they're just what is supposed to take our place, but is still a in-verse entity like the DDLC real world is not literally ours but just the DDLC version of it, which exists only in said verse.

You seem to be misunderstanding my argument. I am not saying the UT Player is actually us. I am saying that they are a player of the game, characterized in-verse. Just like how, say, The Writer from DC isn't literally the Grant Morrison you could potentially meet with, but just a fictional version of him, or how SCP-001-Swann from SCP (Duh) isn't literally the authors of the SCP Foundation articles from our real world. I am saying that, within the context of Undertale's cosmology, the Player is a perfectly normal human in the real world playing a game, which you implicitly agree with by using reasoning like, for example, the Dirty Hacker Ending.

Therefore, the Player is also a 3-D person in their own world. And yet you argue that him and the gameworld (A 4-D structure) are on the same plane of existence, with the Player just being larger than it. If you go with that scenario, the Player is just some 4-dimensional creature and all the references to an "IRL," human player engaging in Undertale within the confines of the verse are null and void. "The Player is a literal human playing the game and seeing it as a computer data" and "The Player is larger than a 4-D structure on their own plane of reality" are mutually exclusive things, is the point.

What I still mean is that Chara is still technically bound from the rules of said world, being unable to truly leave it and the Player literally cannot overcome Chara's commands on the game (unless you count the non-canon editing) until they give the soul. If Chara was that much weaker, then the Player would have 0 issues at opposing them and restore the game anyway via their own manipulation and reset.

And they literally have said soul, as they take it to "complete themselves", as they were empthy as Flowey at the time, with Flowey describing them with the same feeling of empthyness. And they can't just leave it there, Chara asks it as they want it, implying they want it to do more than messing with Frisk.

Which non-canon ending are you talking about, exactly?

Anyways: I'm not sure what you mean by "bound by the rules of said world," given that it was literally reduced to void, by the point. If it is what you said above, then refer to my point: Having AP on the level of a higher reality doesn't necessarily mean you share of the same nature as the higher reallty. You can be Low 1-C off of scaling from someone who utterly transcends your world and still be perfectly 3-D and a part of said world. You just have abnormal power relative to your level of being. This is exemplified by, again, any character who is Tier 2 and above but nonetheless still 3-D beings themselves. I don't see how this point of yours answers this.

Furthermore, the Player not being able to oppose Chara doesn't mean much, either. The Low 1-C rating would be off of their own ontology, and not the amount of influence they are able to exert over a lesser plane. That's a point I brought up in the last thread: You can be Low 1-C or 1-A or whatever and still have limited influence over lower worlds (As well as no such influence over your own). It makes you a very shitty Tier 1 but does not invalidate the tier altogether.

(I don't recall Chara saying they want the Player's SOUL to complete themselves by absorbing it, but I'll chalk that up to me not having playing UT in a bit. I'll go through some of the relevant scenes to refresh my memory on that front. Or you could give me the scan for it, either works)

 

[deonment]

That moment when paper and stories are still 10-C so it means any R>F that uses it can't be tier 1, I guess most if not all forms of author entities cant be tier 1 as the medium that they see as fiction would not be 11-A to them.

 

[Jinsye]

False equivalence. The book example is a thing because of the information in said book being fictional, the characters there do not exist as ink literally. In this case however, Undertale characters literally exist as data files like in DDLC. R>F cases should be evaluated from verse, not because seeing as fiction = Auto Higher D.

This is a really bad way to phrase it.

From my perspective, I don't see any difference from pixels on a screen and ink on paper. Both of them can contain fictional information? The medium legitimately does not matter here.

Both of them contain fictional information and are a medium for media to be experienced. They are also in actuality 3-D things (ink and data). You can't just handwave that as a false equivalency without proving otherwise.

Chara literally destroys the game deleting all its files on screen. That's more than enough evidence.

This is not evidence. If an author figure uses a pencil to erase a character from a book, that does not invalidate the R>F difference and make us say that they view them as literal graphite. At least under our current standards, they would still be information within the book.

Same here, Chara manipulating data does not disprove that the characters are information within a game. All it does is prove that this is how the medium for book works.

as the Wiki clearly does not treat simulations/datas as dimensionally inferior, but rather just smaller on a finite degree (USBs don't hold infinite datas after all).

There's a difference between electronic signals in a 3-D world like GIFfany, and a higher being looking upon a lower world as a video game. UT itself has been shown to have an entire world within it, so you have to take into account the differences.

And the USB part just falls into equating with books. Books do not have infinite pages so they can only store a finite amount of information, which currently goes against our standards.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So yeah, I generally agree with Ultima in this regard. You would need to do a lot more than downgrade Undertale in order for this downgrade to go through, and don't act like this was site standard the entire time. It absolutely was not.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It really isn't, no. As said before, the logic you are using also applies to every kind of reality-fiction interactions. You could invalidate R-F Interactions by saying "This character just sees this universe as ink on a page." You could invalidate R-F Interactions by saying "This character just sees this universe as electrical impulses in their brain (dreams, or thoughts)." You could even invalidade them by saying "This character just sees this universe as pixels on a Television screen." None of these arguments actually apply if the fictional setting is shown to be an actual reality that exists on its own in some level, which is certainly the case with Undertale.

This is an aspect of your point that confuses me a bit, as well: Are you saying the characters are literally just electrical signals, objectively, even from their own point of view? Instead of beings of solid matter, are they literally made of data? Like, say, this chick is? Is the Player just so large that the 2-B multiverse is like electricity running inside of their computer? Despite, of course, it physically, objectively not being so for obvious reasons.

I never made this kind of argument. A book is much different as the information in said book is fictional, not the ink itself. Basically is the story that the ink shapes to be unreal, given that it does not exist in the world, is just a bunch of events narrated from printed words, not that said worlds is the print itself.

About GIFfany, you made quite another misunderstanding. Take again DDLC. Monika's world works like ours, and uses the same physics, matter and so on. But for the real world, her universe is nothing but code and datas, as is all digital. Meaning that while in DDLC universe everything is how is supposed to be in a normal universe, but for the real world is just electricity. It only depends from where you observe said world. Undertale is no different, as in the UT world the multiverse is normal, but for Player is just electrons. POV stuff basically.

You seem to be misunderstanding my argument. I am not saying the UT Player is actually us. I am saying that they are a player of the game, characterized in-verse. Just like how, say, The Writer from DC isn't literally the Grant Morrison you could potentially meet with, but just a fictional version of him, or how SCP-001-Swann from SCP (Duh) isn't literally the authors of the SCP Foundation articles from our real world. I am saying that, within the context of Undertale's cosmology, the Player is a perfectly normal human in the real world playing a game, which you implicitly agree with by using reasoning like, for example, the Dirty Hacker Ending.

Viewing a multiverse as a game is not always ground for Tier 1. I never denied they see it as a game, but is just not Tier 1 for the reasoning me and other staff mentioned.

Therefore, the Player is also a 3-D person in their own world. And yet you argue that him and the gameworld (A 4-D structure) are on the same plane of existence, with the Player just being larger than it. If you go with that scenario, the Player is just some 4-dimensional creature and all the references to an "IRL," human player engaging in Undertale within the confines of the verse are null and void. "The Player is a literal human playing the game and seeing it as a computer data" and "The Player is larger than a 4-D structure on their own plane of reality" are mutually exclusive things, is the point.

Massive headcanon as nothing stated that. We only know they are an entity which plays the game and can manipulate it, not that they are "a human" or what you're arguing lmao.

Which non-canon ending are you talking about, exactly?

I mean non-canon editing like the Player removing Chara's effect on the game, tho it never happens in canon.

Anyways: I'm not sure what you mean by "bound by the rules of said world," given that it was literally reduced to void, by the point. If it is what you said above, then refer to my point: Having AP on the level of a higher reality doesn't necessarily mean you share of the same nature as the higher reallty. You can be Low 1-C off of scaling from someone who utterly transcends your world and still be perfectly 3-D and a part of said world. You just have abnormal power relative to your level of being. This is exemplified by, again, any character who is Tier 2 and above but nonetheless still 3-D beings themselves. I don't see how this point of yours answers this.

All I mean that Chara legit has 0 reason to have anything Tier 1. They are shown that they can affect only their own multiverse at best even after having the soul. If they had Tier 1 stuff they would be able to affect more than that lol.

Furthermore, the Player not being able to oppose Chara doesn't mean much, either. The Low 1-C rating would be off of their own ontology, and not the amount of influence they are able to exert over a lesser plane. That's a point I brought up in the last thread: You can be Low 1-C or 1-A or whatever and still have limited influence over lower worlds (As well as no such influence over your own). It makes you a very shitty Tier 1 but does not invalidate the tier altogether.

It definitely means something when the Player has similar powers about resets and determination, which are a pseudo-UES basically. They could have just ignored Chara if they truly were that superior.

(I don't recall Chara saying they want the Player's SOUL to complete themselves by absorbing it, but I'll chalk that up to me not having playing UT in a bit. I'll go through some of the relevant scenes to refresh my memory on that front. Or you could give me the scan for it, either works)

Basically every human/monster can absorb a soul, this is the reason why they get those in the 1st place, absorb then powering from it.

That moment when paper and stories are still 10-C so it means any R>F that uses it can't be tier 1, I guess most if not all forms of author entities cant be tier 1 as the medium that they see as fiction would not be 11-A to them.

Papers is not the world sees as fictional. The info which that potrays is. The Undertale world is literally datas on the other hand.

From my perspective, I don't see any difference from pixels on a screen and ink on paper. Both of them can contain fictional information? The medium legitimately does not matter here.

Both of them contain fictional information and are a medium for media to be experienced. They are also in actuality 3-D things (ink and data). You can't just handwave that as a false equivalency without proving otherwise.

Did I say pixels matter? I mean the folder of the file, which is the Undertale world itself, which Chara directly destroys. That does not matter when Undertale is caonically a videogame in everything, and it being datas just supports it.

and don't act like this was site standard the entire time. It absolutely was not.

The site standard says that R>F gaps have to be checked based on context. No "is fiction so is Lower-D no matter what because my standards".

 

[PrinceofPein]

using that logic you could argue a character who perceives an entire universe as being a story in a book is finitely larger than said universe, because it's just letters on a page (Made of either ink or graphite) to them. This is obviously not how we treat R-F Interactions in general (i.e References to the physical mediums through which fictional stories are told don't necessarily invalidate a scenario from being a R-F interaction).

This is not equivalent, I don't really care about the thread or the tier or Undertale, but this two scenarios are clearly different.
Reading a book that you consider fictional or writing one, is different from a game which the characters are electric impulses who have feats of interacting with you, and what is fictional in the book is not the ink or the book itself, but the thoughts that was penned down in it.
I think his argument is that the player never considered the characters fiction iirc and they can also affect him at least one of them did, based on the OP.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think his argument is that the player never considered the characters fiction iirc and they can also affect him at least one of them did, based on the OP.

I mean that they see it as datas, which can be a game or whatever. And that's not enough for Tier 1.

Is not literally fiction, you guys are overusing this word. Is just a world bound in datas like DDLC/GIFfany one and that's it in short.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I mean that they see it as datas, which can be a game or whatever. And that's not enough for Tier 1.

Is not literally fiction, you guys are overusing this word. Is just a world bound in datas like DDLC/GIFfany one and that's it in short.

How is a Low 2-C space made out of data any different to a Low 2-C space made out of matter? If you view a set of Low 2-C timelines as fictional thats simply reality>fiction. You're massively overthinking this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

How is a Low 2-C space made out of data any different to a Low 2-C space made out of matter?

Is not yeah.

If you view a set of Low 2-C timelines as fictional thats simply reality>fiction.

I argue that this R>F gap interpretation of yours is taken too literally. Undertale is a "setient game" in other words, where game mechanics are canon, characters are self-aware and so on. Chara destroying the game affects the folder, implying even more that UT world is literally just that.

You're massively overthinking this.

Is how it works bud. I am not 4D because I am massively bigger than the data in my PC.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Is how it works bud. I am not 4D because I am massively bigger than the data in my PC.

This is such a false equivelance and basically ignores how the cosmology and verse functions. The Player isn't 'massively bigger' then the game, the game and the player represent metafictional ideas, the video came/code of the game is just the medium for reality. If you actually saw your PC as fictional then this argument would have more weight.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is such a false equivelance and basically ignores how the cosmology and verse functions.

Lmao.

The Player isn't 'massively bigger' then the game, the game and the player represent metafictional ideas, the video came/code of the game is just the medium for reality.

So I guess Chara destroying the game has never happened then... I guess the Hacker ending never happened too.

If you actually saw your PC as fictional then this argument would have more weight.

??????????

 

[Greatsage13th]

So I guess Chara destroying the game has never happened then... I guess the Hacker ending never happened too.

Happened at the idealistic level he meant. Don't take metaphorical too literally.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

About GIFfany, you made quite another misunderstanding. Take again DDLC. Monika's world works like ours, and uses the same physics, matter and so on. But for the real world, her universe is nothing but code and datas, as is all digital. Meaning that while in DDLC universe everything is how is supposed to be in a normal universe, but for the real world is just electricity. It only depends from where you observe said world. Undertale is no different, as in the UT world the multiverse is normal, but for Player is just electrons. POV stuff basically.

If you posit that there is any such difference in viewpoint between the two worlds, then that doesn't really help your case at all. In the case you are describing, the Player is perceiving the entirety of an infinite, higher-dimensional object (The gameworld. Higher-dimensional for obvious reasons. Infinite because spacetime itself is defaulted as infinite) as being a finite, 3-dimensional object. That is no different from a character seeing a 2-B multiverse as letters printed on a piece of paper.

I previously was under the impression that you were arguing the gameworld was literally, objectively data on all fronts, and that as such the difference in size between it and the Player was finite, but, under the actual scenario you are claiming is the case here, such a difference is not possible to begin with. Either you treat the medium (The code of the game/The letters of the book) representing the fictional work (The fictional story being conveyed) as separate from, and above the work itself just as the real world is, or you treat them as one and the same, and the "misunderstanding" I've explained above holds here. You can't have your cake and eat it too here.

I'd say Umineko is a good example of what I'm talking about (Speaking as someone who is actually knowledgeable on the verse and has worked on it before, by the by). In it, Witches perceive the human world as being a chessboard, and humans themselves as being chess pieces. Yet we don't treat this difference as being a literal one: We see the chessboard as being what the Human World, which they transcend, is represented as on their level of existence. As said above, what you're doing is conflating the medium representing a story with the story itself. Or, again acting like you are, because the actual explanation of your point is basically you saying you are not.

Massive headcanon as nothing stated that.

Not really, it's pretty self-evident, especially from the Dirty Hacker Ending that you, yourself, are using as proof. The intent is very blatantly for them to be the player of a game (To the point Sans even says they should contact the person who made it in the aforementioned ending). Ignoring that is tantamount to feigning blindness. And, worst still, feigning blindness in regards to what's in your own evidence. Either accept this point or drop usage of the Dirty Hacker Ending entirely (And other things that you used to try and prove the same argument, like the Chara scene)

All I mean that Chara legit has 0 reason to have anything Tier 1. They are shown that they can affect only their own multiverse at best even after having the soul. If they had Tier 1 stuff they would be able to affect more than that lol.

See above. Being Tier 1 in AP doesn't necessarily grant you any special privileges with regards to... anything, here. Especially given that, as said before, Chara can't even affect the Player normally, and strictly needs their consent to obtain their SOUL. And then... Well, see below.

It definitely means something when the Player has similar powers about resets and determination, which are a pseudo-UES basically. They could have just ignored Chara if they truly were that superior.

Not necessarily when Resets are strictly a mechanic embedded in the game, which the Player is outside of. Once again: You may be Tier 1 and still have limited resources to work with in regards to a lower world. No reason you couldn't.

Basically every human/monster can absorb a soul, this is the reason why they get those in the 1st place, absorb then powering from it.

I am aware of that, yes. What I'm asking for is evidence Chara absorbed the Player's SOUL, to begin with.

Reading a book that you consider fictional or writing one, is different from a game which the characters are electric impulses who have feats of interacting with you, and what is fictional in the book is not the ink or the book itself, but the thoughts that was penned down in it.

I am well aware of that as well. My point is that Strym's evidence for why that (The Undertale universe being literally, physically electrical signals) is the case is insufficient. And now it seems his explanation of his stance is actually not able to co-exist with what he's proposing.

Is not literally fiction, you guys are overusing this word. Is just a world bound in datas like DDLC/GIFfany one and that's it in short.

You explicitly said you believe there is a difference in POV between the gameworld and the world of the Player: The former being fully real from its own internal viewpoint, and just data from the higher perspective of the Player. That explanation contradicts this point.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you posit that there is any such difference in viewpoint between the two worlds, then that doesn't really help your case at all. In the case you are describing, the Player is perceiving the entirety of an infinite, higher-dimensional object (The gameworld. Higher-dimensional for obvious reasons. Infinite because spacetime itself is defaulted as infinite) as being a finite, 3-dimensional object. That is no different from a character seeing a 2-B multiverse as letters printed on a piece of paper.

It actually is different dude. As even explained from @Pain_to12:

This is not equivalent, I don't really care about the thread or the tier or Undertale, but this two scenarios are clearly different.
Reading a book that you consider fictional or writing one, is different from a game which the characters are electric impulses who have feats of interacting with you, and what is fictional in the book is not the ink or the book itself, but the thoughts that was penned down in it.
I think his argument is that the player never considered the characters fiction iirc and they can also affect him at least one of them did, based on the OP.

That is potrayed from that world is the ideas of the author they put through the pen, not literally the words in ink.

Plus, you're basically telling this like being bigger than even Low 2-C grants 5D because even Low 2-C is infinite. Which is not... how it works, unless standards became this bad.

I previously was under the impression that you were arguing the gameworld was literally, objectively data on all fronts, and that as such the difference in size between it and the Player was finite, but, under the actual scenario you are claiming is the case here, such a difference is not possible to begin with. Either you treat the medium (The code of the game/The letters of the book) representing the fictional work (The fictional story being conveyed) as separate from, and above the work itself just as the real world is, or you treat them as one and the same, and the "misunderstanding" I've explained above holds here. You can't have your cake and eat it too here.

Yeah no. You're strawmanning me to fit your narrative. I never say that the book is the same as code in R>F difference, so stop using this as example because it does not fit. All I am saying is that UT exists as a code for the view of the player, with said code even interacting with them. I easy to get why both are 4D.

I'd say Umineko is a good example of what I'm talking about (Speaking as someone who is actually knowledgeable on the verse and has worked on it before, by the by). In it, Witches perceive the human world as being a chessboard, and humans themselves as being chess pieces. Yet we don't treat this difference as being a literal one: We see the chessboard as being what the Human World, which they transcend, is represented as on their level of existence. As said above, what you're doing is conflating the medium representing a story with the story itself. Or, again acting like you are, because the actual explanation of your point is basically you saying you are not.

Umineko is not Undertale. The difference in the former is not literal. In the latter it is given how metafictional Undertale is compared to the Player. Don't try to pull "but Umi is meta too" because metafiction elements greatly vary depending on context. I speak only for Undertale context and nothing else.

Not really, it's pretty self-evident, especially from the Dirty Hacker Ending that you, yourself, are using as proof. The intent is very blatantly for them to be the player of a game (To the point Sans even says they should contact the person who made it in the aforementioned ending). Ignoring that is tantamount to feigning blindness. And, worst still, feigning blindness in regards to what's in your own evidence. Either accept this point or drop usage of the Dirty Hacker Ending entirely (And other things that you used to try and prove the same argument, like the Chara scene)

Nice way to warping my words again. This is not a proof of them being literally a human being. You admitted yourself that self-insert authors can not even be human at all, and the Player up to now is just an entity which views Undertale as data. We only know they are "something" which manipulates the events and nothing else. You're assuming stuff because of taking this kind of shit too literally.

See above. Being Tier 1 in AP doesn't necessarily grant you any special privileges with regards to... anything, here. Especially given that, as said before, Chara can't even affect the Player normally, and strictly needs their consent to obtain their SOUL. And then... Well, see below.

Not necessarily when Resets are strictly a mechanic embedded in the game, which the Player is outside of. Once again: You may be Tier 1 and still have limited resources to work with in regards to a lower world. No reason you couldn't.

It definitely does matter when the Player supposedly has absolute control over such a fictional world due to it being insignificant to them. They would just alter it really easily if they were actually that superior in context, but apparently is not the case.

I am aware of that, yes. What I'm asking for is evidence Chara absorbed the Player's SOUL, to begin with.

I already gave it to you. But if you can't accept it despite being so blatant then idk what to say. This is stonewalling ngl.

I am well aware of that as well. My point is that Strym's evidence for why that (The Undertale universe being literally, physically electrical signals) is the case is insufficient. And now it seems his explanation of his stance is actually not able to co-exist with what he's proposing.

I never contradicted this. You're still warping my words to fit your headcanon.

You explicitly said you believe there is a difference in POV between the gameworld and the world of the Player: The former being fully real from its own internal viewpoint, and just data from the higher perspective of the Player. That explanation contradicts this point.

Data can perfectly be "real", but just differently. DDLC again is an example, given that you like to throw in other verses.

 

[Jinsye]

It definitely does matter when the Player supposedly has absolute control over such a fictional world due to it being insignificant to them. They would just alter it really easily if they were actually that superior in context, but apparently is not the case

It's 3:40 but having r>f /=/ being able to alter lower worlds easily.

It just means you have r>f. Not that the Player can warp a world back in from nothingness. If Chara destroyed the game (which would include anything they could reset to), then there would be nothing for them to go back to and thus they can't do shit.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's 3:40 but having r>f /=/ being able to alter lower worlds easily.

It just means you have r>f. Not that the Player can warp a world back in from nothingness. If Chara destroyed the game (which would include anything they could reset to), then there would be nothing for them to go back to and thus they can't do shit.

True Reset literally allows one to revert the world from nothingness. Literally is what Chara has used, as the effects are the same, with the Player being able to use it as shown from the ending of Pacifist.

 

[Jinsye]

UT wiki really spouting off headcanons huh.

There's no proof that Chara used the True Reset to remake the world, if you have any proof of that then that would be cool.

Your only connection is that both reset things, but the True Reset has never recreated a world from nothingness so that's moot.

 

[StrymULTRA]

UT wiki really spouting off headcanons huh.

Lmao.

There's no proof that Chara used the True Reset to remake the world, if you have any proof of that then that would be cool.

What happens after both a pacifist and genocide is that the effects of the True Reset are essentially the same. Both cases have Flowey forgetting everything that has happened, the Player name needing again an input like it happens after a True Reset. Not to mention that Chara is unaffected from True Resets as well. There's no other explanation what the ****.

Your only connection is that both reset things, but the True Reset has never recreated a world from nothingness so that's moot.

It literally did, seems like you're opposing this as the last line of defense ngl.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

You are just being an overall nuisance to the thread. Unhelpful as well. Your agreement is not worth anything, nor will you be able to argue or dispute any arguments here. There is literally no reason for you to be here, leave.

Damn bro, I agree even, there's no point for him to be here if he doesn't know UT.
It such complex thing that requires huge amount of knowledge

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am currently uncertain regarding what we should do here, so I would appreciate further input from staff and knowledgeable members.

 

[TioKill]

Well, I am currently uncertain regarding what we should do here, so I would appreciate further input from staff and knowledgeable members.

Well, the debate has been severely extended by the unwanted participation of admittedly unknowledgeable participants who ask evidence on topics any knowledgeable and helpful person, on Undertale, would know.

Isn't there any way to deal with this kind of person?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, I am currently uncertain regarding what we should do here, so I would appreciate further input from staff and knowledgeable members.

@Pain_to12 agrees with me still, @Qawsedf234 also. Not to mention that @Eficiente is against this way Ultima uses to treat R>F as shown in both this CRT and the one which upgraded the Player to this Tier, as Fiction greatly varies within context and can vary depending on the verse.

Ultima is literally the only staff disagreeing while 4 staff and Pain instead agree with me. I believe is pretty straightforward that this CRT has to be closed because making it continue because of a single staff is unacceptable and is a waste of time.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you list all of the staff members who have accepted this thread please?

I am technically uneasy with granting automatic infinitely superior reality-fiction differences, unless they are very explicit, especially if they create inconsistencies with the established power levels, so on second though I am personally also favoring your interpretation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can you list all of the staff members who have accepted this thread please?

I am technically uneasy with granting automatic infinitely superior reality-fiction differences, unless they are very explicit, so on second though I am personally also favoring your interpretation.

This seems reasonable.

I agree with all of these changes

I don't agree with 2-B but I do agree with the rest of the premise and how that's not worth Low 1-C, so I do agree with the thread.

One could say it was the player that gave their Soul to Chara, or that both reached each other, as it was a transaction. It should be indifferent.

Yeah, something being code is not the same as being lower dimensional.

I am done reading through the OP and also the upgrade thread and I need to agree the upgrade should never have happened.
Seeing something as data does not mean Higher D and the fact that the data can interact with you means further that no ontological difference

This basically.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that Ultima is likely outvoted then.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Psychomaster35 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

Do you still have the same views as previously here?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-player-low-1-c-downgrade.143649/post-5177740

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, I am currently uncertain regarding what we should do here, so I would appreciate further input from staff and knowledgeable members.

Still planning on responding shortly, if that's alright by you. The discussion (From my first response to latest) has been fairly short overall, so, don't think we can just stuff it down yet. I take it I can still voice my input here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Do you still have the same views as previously here?

I actually have some questions regarding Ultima arguments
I will ask them later on PC, but my view still pretty much the same, i mainly side with the chara anti-feat, but Ultima has some arguments that if true may actually warrant low 1-C while chara gets Higher D manip, but since the quotes still breaking, it will be when I am on PC

Also vs wiki mobile is messed up now so it's hard to post quoted texts without editing the source yourself.

 

[Antvasima]

Still planning on responding shortly, if that's alright by you. The discussion (From my first response to latest) has been fairly short overall, so, don't think we can just stuff it down yet. I take it I can still voice my input here?

Yes, that is fine.

I actually have some questions regarding Ultima arguments
I will ask them later on PC, but my view still pretty much the same, i mainly side with the chara anti-feat, but Ultima has some arguments that if true may actually warrant low 1-C while chara gets Higher D manip, but since the quotes still breaking, it will be when I am on PC

Okay. Noted

Also vs wiki mobile is messed up now so it's hard to post quoted texts without editing the source yourself.

Do you mean our wiki or forum?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Do you mean our wiki or forum

Our forum.
This one I am typing on for example, this is what I am seeing as your quoted post

[ QUOTE="Antvasima, post: 5177822, member: 17"]
Do you mean our wiki or forum
[/QUOTE]

 

[Psychomaster35]

Okay. I suppose that Ultima is likely outvoted then.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Psychomaster35 @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

Do you still have the same views as previously here?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-player-low-1-c-downgrade.143649/post-5177740

I still stand by Strym.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It actually is different dude. As even explained from @Pain_to12:

Pain's explanation (And they can correct me if I am wrong), is basically the stance I assumed you were taking: The "fictional setting" holds no actual ontological inferiority to the "real world," and in actuality is just a finitely smaller thing. In this scenario, as said before, the Undertale universes and the people inhabiting it would be literally, physically electrical impulses, from all points of view including their own. But then, you said this:

About GIFfany, you made quite another misunderstanding. Take again DDLC. Monika's world works like ours, and uses the same physics, matter and so on. But for the real world, her universe is nothing but code and datas, as is all digital. Meaning that while in DDLC universe everything is how is supposed to be in a normal universe, but for the real world is just electricity. It only depends from where you observe said world. Undertale is no different, as in the UT world the multiverse is normal, but for Player is just electrons. POV stuff basically.

Which is basically positing that the Undertale universe is a complete, perfectly normal reality from its own internal point of view, and only exists as computer data from the perspective of the Player. This, once again, is irreconcilable with what Pain described in their explanation, and with the premise you are using as the basis of this downgrade. To repeat myself: You are basically arguing the Player should be downgraded because the fictional world (The Undertale universe) and the medium through which it is being represented (Electrical impulses running inside of a computer) are one and the same. So much so that you even said this:

Papers is not the world sees as fictional. The info which that potrays is. The Undertale world is literally datas on the other hand.

And yet, when I pointed this out, you explicitly called this a misunderstanding on my part, and said you don't think that's the case at all. So, you are very much contradicting yourself, even if you're not noticing it. You even said I was misunderstanding you in response to me asking if, in your opinion, Undertale characters would be like GIFfany, despite you using GIFfany as a direct comparision for how the gameworld is like in your previous post.

Plus, you're basically telling this like being bigger than even Low 2-C grants 5D because even Low 2-C is infinite. Which is not... how it works, unless standards became this bad.

Admittedly this is a bit of a nebulous area, given Tier 2's status as a sort of anomaly-tier (You've certainly heard of the famed 5-D axis between universes, and the necessity of affecting it for a feat to be 2-C and up, no?). But, regardless: Being larger than an infinitely-sized higher-dimensional object to the point that, in your perspective, it is encompassed by finitely large, 3-D objects, very much does breach the gap for Tier 1. That's the case with all Reality-Fiction Interactions, and once again something you are yourself pushing for (All the stuff about the Gameworld being a fully realized reality internally that just so happens to be perceived as data by the Player). So, I'd say you are kind of just objectively wrong here, unless you switch your stance.

Yeah no. You're strawmanning me to fit your narrative. I never say that the book is the same as code in R>F difference, so stop using this as example because it does not fit. All I am saying is that UT exists as a code for the view of the player, with said code even interacting with them. I easy to get why both are 4D.

The comparision very much does fit: Letters printed on a piece of paper are a medium through which fiction is represented, the exact same way computer code is. Pointing out the implications of your logic is not strawmanning, it's you not realizing the slippery slope that your argument results in. Very different things. And even then I admitted this was a mistake I made on my assessment of your position, as I thought this before you explained the specifics of your stance in detail, so the strawman accusation is even more unfounded in light of that.

Data can perfectly be "real", but just differently. DDLC again is an example, given that you like to throw in other verses.

Not sure why you hung onto that word, specifically. The point is that you are still positing the gameworld is a fully complete reality from its own viewpoint, while simultaneously being just tiny specks of electricity, but only from the viewpoint of the Player. For there to be such a switch in perspective, you need to have an ontological jump: If you posit the difference in size between the two is finite by virtue of the gameworld being just data, you, once more, have to abide by the scenario I described in my earlier posts. Yet you apparently aren't, and said this was a misunderstanding on my part.

Umineko is not Undertale. The difference in the former is not literal. In the latter it is given how metafictional Undertale is compared to the Player.

But you, yourself, are vouching for a difference in viewpoints between the two worlds. The only way for your aforementioned position to work is for you to abide by the notion that the gameworld is literally, objectively data from all viewpoints, instead of the whole "Normal reality from one POV but just computer data from another." So, once again, you are contradicting yourself: You are claiming one thing, and then trying to draw a conclusion that is fundamentally incompatible with it.

Nice way to warping my words again. This is not a proof of them being literally a human being. You admitted yourself that self-insert authors can not even be human at all, and the Player up to now is just an entity which views Undertale as data. We only know they are "something" which manipulates the events and nothing else. You're assuming stuff because of taking this kind of shit too literally.

Firstly, this is not really an unfounded assumption, so much as it is a fairly simple application of Occam's Razor: When you hear hoof beats, think of horses, not unicorns. Especially given how, once again, the intent is fairly blatantly for the Player to be an actual player of a game, said game being Undertale; basic textual interpretation.

And secondly, it is pretty bizarre that you accuse me of taking shit too literally when, as far as can tell, the entirety of your argument hinges on taking things literally. You even complained that the difference between Umineko and Undertale's case is that, in the former, the display of transcendence is not literal (i.e The Human World isn't literally chessboard-sized next to the higher layers), while in Undertale's case, it is (i.e The gameworld is literally a speck of data next to the world of the Player). So, once again, you are contradicting your own words.

It definitely does matter when the Player supposedly has absolute control over such a fictional world due to it being insignificant to them. They would just alter it really easily if they were actually that superior in context, but apparently is not the case.

Why is absolute control over a fictional world assumed, exactly? Why can a Low 1-C entity (Who is at that tier due to an ontological superiority over a Tier 2 reality) not have limited degrees of influence in the lower world? You've provided no reason for why that cannot happen.

I already gave it to you. But if you can't accept it despite being so blatant then idk what to say. This is stonewalling ngl.

When, exactly? Your last response (In the post before this one) was this, which is just an explanation of one of Undertale's setting mechanics (SOUL absorption), without actual scans being provided for why Chara assimilated The Player's SOUL. If you gave me evidence at any point, I'm genuinely sorry, but I just don't see it.

What happens after both a pacifist and genocide is that the effects of the True Reset are essentially the same. Both cases have Flowey forgetting everything that has happened, the Player name needing again an input like it happens after a True Reset. Not to mention that Chara is unaffected from True Resets as well. There's no other explanation what the ****.

Is it ever explicitly called a True Reset? Two things having similar effects doesn't necessarily mean they are the same, especially if the circumstances in which we are shown them are different: Chara's thing recreating a destroyed world, and the True Reset... Well, resetting it entirely. Although nevertheless I'm not sure where this point came from, or what relevance it has to the discussion.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Although with regards to the other staff members that were called to input here: Could you elaborate on what exactly are your disagreements with my point, and which parts of Strym's points, specifically, are convincing to you? I believe more people fully speaking their minds (As for instance Pain is) instead of just inserting one-word votes would make for a more productive discussion.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It goes without saying but Ultima's interperetation seems to be more in line with our current Wiki standards then the disagreeing parties reasonings.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Pain's explanation (And they can correct me if I am wrong), is basically the stance I assumed you were taking: The "fictional setting" holds no actual ontological inferiority to the "real world," and in actuality is just a finitely smaller thing. In this scenario, as said before, the Undertale universes and the people inhabiting it would be literally, physically electrical impulses, from all points of view including their own. But then, you said this:



Which is basically positing that the Undertale universe is a complete, perfectly normal reality from its own internal point of view, and only exists as computer data from the perspective of the Player. This, once again, is irreconcilable with what Pain described in their explanation, and with the premise you are using as the basis of this downgrade. To repeat myself: You are basically arguing the Player should be downgraded because the fictional world (The Undertale universe) and the medium through which it is being represented (Electrical impulses running inside of a computer) are one and the same. So much so that you even said this:



And yet, when I pointed this out, you explicitly called this a misunderstanding on my part, and said you don't think that's the case at all. So, you are very much contradicting yourself, even if you're not noticing it. You even said I was misunderstanding you in response to me asking if, in your opinion, Undertale characters would be like GIFfany, despite you using GIFfany as a direct comparision for how the gameworld is like in your previous post.


Admittedly this is a bit of a nebulous area, given Tier 2's status as a sort of anomaly-tier (You've certainly heard of the famed 5-D axis between universes, and the necessity of affecting it for a feat to be 2-C and up, no?). But, regardless: Being larger than an infinitely-sized higher-dimensional object to the point that, in your perspective, it is encompassed by finitely large, 3-D objects, very much does breach the gap for Tier 1. That's the case with all Reality-Fiction Interactions, and once again something you are yourself pushing for (All the stuff about the Gameworld being a fully realized reality internally that just so happens to be perceived as data by the Player). So, I'd say you are kind of just objectively wrong here, unless you switch your stance.


The comparision very much does fit: Letters printed on a piece of paper are a medium through which fiction is represented, the exact same way computer code is. Pointing out the implications of your logic is not strawmanning, it's you not realizing the slippery slope that your argument results in. Very different things. And even then I admitted this was a mistake I made on my assessment of your position, as I thought this before you explained the specifics of your stance in detail, so the strawman accusation is even more unfounded in light of that.


Not sure why you hung onto that word, specifically. The point is that you are still positing the gameworld is a fully complete reality from its own viewpoint, while simultaneously being just tiny specks of electricity, but only from the viewpoint of the Player. For there to be such a switch in perspective, you need to have an ontological jump: If you posit the difference in size between the two is finite by virtue of the gameworld being just data, you, once more, have to abide by the scenario I described in my earlier posts. Yet you apparently aren't, and said this was a misunderstanding on my part.


But you, yourself, are vouching for a difference in viewpoints between the two worlds. The only way for your aforementioned position to work is for you to abide by the notion that the gameworld is literally, objectively data from all viewpoints, instead of the whole "Normal reality from one POV but just computer data from another." So, once again, you are contradicting yourself: You are claiming one thing, and then trying to draw a conclusion that is fundamentally incompatible with it.


Firstly, this is not really an unfounded assumption, so much as it is a fairly simple application of Occam's Razor: When you hear hoof beats, think of horses, not unicorns. Especially given how, once again, the intent is fairly blatantly for the Player to be an actual player of a game, said game being Undertale; basic textual interpretation.

And secondly, it is pretty bizarre that you accuse me of taking shit too literally when, as far as can tell, the entirety of your argument hinges on taking things literally. You even complained that the difference between Umineko and Undertale's case is that, in the former, the display of transcendence is not literal (i.e The Human World isn't literally chessboard-sized next to the higher layers), while in Undertale's case, it is (i.e The gameworld is literally a speck of data next to the world of the Player). So, once again, you are contradicting your own words.


Why is absolute control over a fictional world assumed, exactly? Why can a Low 1-C entity (Who is at that tier due to an ontological superiority over a Tier 2 reality) not have limited degrees of influence in the lower world? You've provided no reason for why that cannot happen.


When, exactly? Your last response (In the post before this one) was this, which is just an explanation of one of Undertale's setting mechanics (SOUL absorption), without actual scans being provided for why Chara assimilated The Player's SOUL. If you gave me evidence at any point, I'm genuinely sorry, but I just don't see it.


Is it ever explicitly called a True Reset? Two things having similar effects doesn't necessarily mean they are the same, especially if the circumstances in which we are shown them are different: Chara's thing recreating a destroyed world, and the True Reset... Well, resetting it entirely. Although nevertheless I'm not sure where this point came from, or what relevance it has to the discussion.

I don't know how my message will help, but I'm about to say that game sees player as we, ourself like the one who pulling strings and have full control over the game.

abc123.ogg is literally saying it, thought abc123.ogg made by Gaster due to same voice sounds as him.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It goes without saying but Ultima's interperetation seems to be more in line with our current Wiki standards then the disagreeing parties reasonings.

Agreed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which is basically positing that the Undertale universe is a complete, perfectly normal reality from its own internal point of view, and only exists as computer data from the perspective of the Player. This, once again, is irreconcilable with what Pain described in their explanation, and with the premise you are using as the basis of this downgrade. To repeat myself: You are basically arguing the Player should be downgraded because the fictional world (The Undertale universe) and the medium through which it is being represented (Electrical impulses running inside of a computer) are one and the same. So much so that you even said this:


And yet, when I pointed this out, you explicitly called this a misunderstanding on my part, and said you don't think that's the case at all. So, you are very much contradicting yourself, even if you're not noticing it. You even said I was misunderstanding you in response to me asking if, in your opinion, Undertale characters would be like GIFfany, despite you using GIFfany as a direct comparision for how the gameworld is like in your previous post.

Undertale is definitely its own unique case. You can be part of a simulated reality which is seen as data without it being Lower Dimensional. So I don't see from where this "but it must be lower dimensional if other beings see it as datas" comes from. However, the Player is still a being able to manipulate to its likes said world, without necessairly being higher-dimensional in comparison to said world tbf.

Firstly, this is not really an unfounded assumption, so much as it is a fairly simple application of Occam's Razor: When you hear hoof beats, think of horses, not unicorns. Especially given how, once again, the intent is fairly blatantly for the Player to be an actual player of a game, said game being Undertale; basic textual interpretation.

And secondly, it is pretty bizarre that you accuse me of taking shit too literally when, as far as can tell, the entirety of your argument hinges on taking things literally. You even complained that the difference between Umineko and Undertale's case is that, in the former, the display of transcendence is not literal (i.e The Human World isn't literally chessboard-sized next to the higher layers), while in Undertale's case, it is (i.e The gameworld is literally a speck of data next to the world of the Player). So, once again, you are contradicting your own words.

Dude, you're literally cherrypicking my words. I did say that the Player is not literally a human as there's literally 0 evidence for that. We do not assume that beings who are based on the authors are literally humans writing stuff unless shown so in-verse, as they're more entities in other cases. UT Player is no different, we all know that is some kind of entity which controls Frisk/Kris and that's it. Not to mention that with the meta-levels Undertale has, is not that unreasonable that the game world is literally data in its entirely (like, again, in DDLC case). Plus, read below.

Why is absolute control over a fictional world assumed, exactly? Why can a Low 1-C entity (Who is at that tier due to an ontological superiority over a Tier 2 reality) not have limited degrees of influence in the lower world? You've provided no reason for why that cannot happen.

The True Reset is shown to bring back the whole Undertale reality back if destroyed when used from Chara. Don't pull a "but Chara could have simply re-created it" when the effects are blatantly the same (except to what happens to the endings after the 1st Genocide), and the True Reset acts as a perfect restoration of the reality to its origin state, which is reasonable that is strong enough to restore it after its destruction too, given we talk of such meta-narrative levels. Player has shown to use the True Reset too, and if they were that superior, they could have simply not cared about what Chara did and True Reset the world anyway.

When, exactly? Your last response (In the post before this one) was this, which is just an explanation of one of Undertale's setting mechanics (SOUL absorption), without actual scans being provided for why Chara assimilated The Player's SOUL. If you gave me evidence at any point, I'm genuinely sorry, but I just don't see it.

Bruh. Anyway, remember when Chara could feel a "strange feeling" from that soul, and felt its feelings? Flowey after absorbing the souls was able to feel the feelings of these souls as well (despite him as Photoshop Flowey was still a dick), and as Asriel (given that he is an exception, as he could absorb both humans and monsters as he's a plant technically and not a monster or human). No one in Undertale can feel the emotion of other souls without absorbing these (Frisk technically could only with the Monsters' souls after communicating with said Souls in the fights but they could already communicate with souls from their own, so I don't think Chara is the same here). There is more evidence with Chara having absorbed said soul than not (thus supporting my claim of the Player not being even human).

Is it ever explicitly called a True Reset? Two things having similar effects doesn't necessarily mean they are the same, especially if the circumstances in which we are shown them are different: Chara's thing recreating a destroyed world, and the True Reset... Well, resetting it entirely. Although nevertheless I'm not sure where this point came from, or what relevance it has to the discussion.

Read above. Regardless, saying that the Undertale wiki feeds of headcanons just because they agree with me about Chara using True Reset is legit dishonest.

Although with regards to the other staff members that were called to input here: Could you elaborate on what exactly are your disagreements with my point, and which parts of Strym's points, specifically, are convincing to you? I believe more people fully speaking their minds (As for instance Pain is) instead of just inserting one-word votes would make for a more productive discussion.

Ultima, just because their answers are short, it does not mean that their opinion is not complete and thus should be ignored. They just can perfectly still agree with me for the exact same reasons as before and not finding your explanations sufficient.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Pain's explanation (And they can correct me if I am wrong), is basically the stance I assumed you were taking: The "fictional setting" holds no actual ontological inferiority to the "real world," and in actuality is just a finitely smaller thing. In this scenario, as said before, the Undertale universes and the people inhabiting it would be literally, physically electrical impulses, from all points of view including their own.

Correct, I have not seen anything that really say the player holds such great difference above the game world.

Well since I am getting confused, here are some random yes or no questions that basically sums up what I have seen here that qualifies for R/F. Also, Chara entire feat does not matter, we have lower D affecting Higher D and this with his permission no less, so if there was other undeniable R/F evidence then Chara gets low 1-C manip, but if the feats are shaky, then Chara serves as an anti-feat.

They're an entity supposed to be the representation of us,

Practically the player is a representation of the actual human player irl, inside the game?

the Player being able to mess around with the gameworld by controlling data files

Does the Player view the Undertale world as a literal game or something similar?

Anyway, let me say these generally,
Viewing something as a game can be fictional depending on how it was described.
1. I view chess as a game but I hold no ontological difference over it, DnD on the other hand, I hold ontological difference over it, since it is a game I can do what I want in.
So which scenario fits the Player and the gameworld description

2. Does the player see them as codes/files or actually has electrical impulses or people staying in a lower world.
(in the sense that you actually hold ontological difference over files and code, while if he sees them as literal electrical impulses, then thats no R/F)

3. Also the default is that, if a character in a game sees another world as a game, then that means the character hold ontological difference over the game inside the game.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Practically the player is a representation of the actual human player irl, inside the game?

Yes and no. The Player is supposed to be this entity which controls the game behind the scenes, as they're the ones controlling the Protagonists even against their will. So they do function as the player which interacts with the world as a game to explore from outside, but nothing says they're literally humans like we are.

Anyway, let me say these generally,
Viewing something as a game can be fictional depending on how it was described.
1. I view chess as a game but I hold no ontological difference over it, DnD on the other hand, I hold ontological difference over it, since it is a game I can do what I want in.
So which scenario fits the Player and the gameworld description

2. Does the player see them as codes/files or actually has electrical impulses or people staying in a lower world.
(in the sense that you actually hold ontological difference over files and code, while if he sees them as literal electrical impulses, then thats no R/F)

3. Also the default is that, if a character in a game sees another world as a game, then that means the character hold ontological difference over the game inside the game.

Undertale is extremely metafictional, with some of the most important characters being aware of the 4th wall and mechanics like Saves and Statistics being canon, and most of the powers are around said mechanics. One of the endings is achieved from manipulating the files in the game folder, and when Chara destroys the game, the game files in the folder are shown to be deleted, more implying that Undertale is literally code in the same way Doki Doki Literature Club or Code Lyoko are, which are digital worlds compared to the normal world but they're normal universes from a POV inside of them. And none of these verses is Low 1-C, just Tier 2.