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Undertale Player Low 1-C Downgrade

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TioKill said:
You are just being an overall nuisance to the thread. Unhelpful as well. Your agreement is not worth anything, nor will you be able to argue or dispute any arguments here. There is literally no reason for you to be here, leave.
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You don't seem to understand the situation apparently. we all have a reason to be here. I would not be here without a reason. No one. Would be here without a reason innit? Whether or not they would be helpful or not. This doesn't violate any site rules. Neither does my continuous response nor does questioning my apparent existence in this thread.
 
TioKill said:
You are just being an overall nuisance to the thread. Unhelpful as well. Your agreement is not worth anything, nor will you be able to argue or dispute any arguments here. There is literally no reason for you to be here, leave.
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Well, the same could have been communiqued in a smoother way. Just a minor comment on that and moving on.
 
Antvasima said:
@Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @Crabwhale @Eficiente @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?
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@DarkDragonMedeus, @Psychomaster35 and @Eficiente agreed with the CRT and there's not much of an opposition now.

This is the profile to unlock:

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Player (Undertale)

The Player Entity is an enigmatic creature that influences Frisk throughout Undertale. Due to seeing Undertale's world as a mere game and its characters as fictional, they seem to lack empathy for the characters and are willing to even kill all of them just to see a different ending. While their...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
StrymULTRA said:
As 3 staff seem to agree and there's no opposition apparently, I'd like you to unlock the Player so I can apply the changes.
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I have done so:

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Player (Undertale)

The Player Entity is an enigmatic creature that influences Frisk throughout Undertale. Due to seeing Undertale's world as a mere game and its characters as fictional, they seem to lack empathy for the characters and are willing to even kill all of them just to see a different ending. While their...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Antvasima said:
I have done so:

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Player (Undertale)

The Player Entity is an enigmatic creature that influences Frisk throughout Undertale. Due to seeing Undertale's world as a mere game and its characters as fictional, they seem to lack empathy for the characters and are willing to even kill all of them just to see a different ending. While their...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
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Done. You can close this profile and CRT.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Tho if you really want to, remember that Roach himself disagreed with 5D Player long ago.
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That's fine. It just means I disagree with him, too.

Anyway: The first set of counterpoints doesn't make much sense, truth be told. References to the medium through which a fictional story is conveyed don't really invalidate a reality-fiction difference, or else those would not really exist, to begin with. If a character sees a whole universe as part of a story told in a book, we wouldn't reason that they're finitely larger than said universe because they perceive it as a bunch of letters (Made of ink, or graphite).

And I think this becomes a bit clearer when you consider the actual status of the Player: If they existed on the same level of existence as the gameworld itself, with the latter just being very small compared to themselves, then they would be a 4-dimensional creature outright, from all perspectives including their own, and I don't think this has much evidence of being the case. Given what they are meant to be, we can assert that The Player, from their own point of view, is a normal, 3-D person, something that cannot happen if they exist on the same level of existence as a 4-D object (The gameworld) and is conventionally larger than it.

StrymULTRA said:
This character also sees the cosmology as a game and they're still 2-C as well.
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They should be Low 1-C as well, then.

StrymULTRA said:
Chara absolutely does scale to the Player as they could reach them and take their Soul. Counting how much of a deal the power of the Soul is, this basically implies that Chara has a comparable status with the Player. Low 1-C Player implies Low 1-C Chara, aka that Chara can transcend themselves, which is nonsense.
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Chara can only take the Player's SOUL with the latter's consent, otherwise, as far as we can ascertain, they can't do much to them. This is only further substantiated by how Chara goes ahead and destroys reality regardless of whether or not you agree to it (And even mocks you for thinking you were in control), while, in regards to recreating it, they just sit back if you refuse to give them your SOUL.

Although this still would, of course, mean Chara's Soul Manipulation is Low 1-C to an extent. Just a really shitty one, since they couldn't affect a Low 1-C entity without their consent, but, still a thing. I don't see an issue with that, though. It's not exactly unfeasible for a character to have abilities a tier above their own level of existence.

Neutral on the Deltarune stuff.
 
Admittedly I have juggled with my thoughts on what the player's current tiering is, I do not believe the player is low 1-C at the moment, although not by the points brought up by the OP, but because of the ambiguity of the player's nature. The player entity that represents the player shouldn't be assumed to translate to the literal player behind the screen, and given how we lack extra evidence for what the player entity is, we cant entirely be sure what its nature is, and whatnot.

My opinion on this can be swayed however, so I am actually going to stay neutral leaning towards agree for now, I will keep a close eye on this.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Anyway: The first set of counterpoints doesn't make much sense, truth be told. References to the medium through which a fictional story is conveyed don't really invalidate a reality-fiction difference, or else those would not really exist, to begin with. If a character sees a whole universe as part of a story told in a book, we wouldn't reason that they're finitely larger than said universe because they perceive it as a bunch of letters (Made of ink, or graphite).
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False equivalence. The book example is a thing because of the information in said book being fictional, the characters there do not exist as ink literally. In this case however, Undertale characters literally exist as data files like in DDLC. R>F cases should be evaluated from verse, not because seeing as fiction = Auto Higher D.
Ultima_Reality said:
And I think this becomes a bit clearer when you consider the actual status of the Player: If they existed on the same level of existence as the gameworld itself, with the latter just being very small compared to themselves, then they would be a 4-dimensional creature outright, from all perspectives including their own, and I don't think this has much evidence of being the case. Given what they are meant to be, we can assert that The Player, from their own point of view, is a normal, 3-D person, something that cannot happen if they exist on the same level of existence as a 4-D object (The gameworld) and is conventionally larger than it.
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This makes literally 0 sense. They're an entity supposed to be the representation of us, not literally us. They're perfectly a 4Th Dimensional being as in-verse they're literally larger than a 4D world.
Ultima_Reality said:
They should be Low 1-C as well, then.
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Something contradicting your points does not mean that it should be changed. It's just an example of the wiki not taking every Real World as literally Transcendent for every verse existing.
Ultima_Reality said:
Chara can only take the Player's SOUL with the latter's consent, otherwise, as far as we can ascertain, they can't do much to them. This is only further substantiated by how Chara goes ahead and destroys reality regardless of whether or not you agree to it (And even mocks you for thinking you were in control), while, in regards to recreating it, they just sit back if you refuse to give them your SOUL.
Click to expand...
This doesn't mean that Chara doesn't scale once they have the Soul. Both humans and monsters get a big boost whenever they take a Soul, and this means Chara is Low 1-C, however this is contradicted from being being still bound in their 4D world and being still unable to leave it.
Ultima_Reality said:
Although this still would, of course, mean Chara's Soul Manipulation is Low 1-C to an extent. Just a really shitty one, since they couldn't affect a Low 1-C entity without their consent, but, still a thing. I don't see an issue with that, though. It's not exactly unfeasible for a character to have abilities a tier above their own level of existence.
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Read above.
 
in DDLC the world monika is in is stated to be as real as the real universe which is why i didn't try to upgrade the player to tier 1
 
Zencha9 said:
in DDLC the world monika is in is stated to be as real as the real universe which is why i didn't try to upgrade the player to tier 1
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It does not change my point buddy. Undertale exists as datas, not literal fiction like Ultima is suggesting. Adn data is still 3D compared to us.

So, what exactly stops the Player from perceiving the world as small 4D Data like we do with 3D one?
 
StrymULTRA said:
False equivalence. The book example is a thing because of the information in said book being fictional, the characters there do not exist as ink literally.
Click to expand...
And the same applies here. There needs to be evidence of the characters in the Undertale world existing as electrical signals in a literal manner, and, as it turns out, the Player being able to mess around with the gameworld by controlling data files is not that, not any more than an author entity manipulating a lower world by changing the writing on a piece of paper is. We don't really default cases like this to the scenario you are claiming here.

StrymULTRA said:
This makes literally 0 sense. They're an entity supposed to be the representation of us, not literally us. They're perfectly a 4Th Dimensional being as in-verse they're literally larger than a 4D world.
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The Player was upgraded to Low 1-C, to begin with, was on the basis that they are the literal player of the game as contextualized inside of the verse, a basis that you still seem to abide by, given your claim that they see the gameworld as computer data in a literal sense, and usage of the Dirty Hacker Ending as evidence of such. That point contradicts the ones laid out in the OP, as far as I can tell.

StrymULTRA said:
This doesn't mean that Chara doesn't scale once they have the Soul. Both humans and monsters get a big boost whenever they take a Soul, and this means Chara is Low 1-C, however this is contradicted from being being still bound in their 4D world and being still unable to leave it.
Click to expand...
Chara never really absorbed the SOUL of the Player, I don't think. It's never really stated if they do anything with it (Outside of hijacking Frisk), so, I don't think that gives you much leeway here. Although you can, of course, correct me if I am wrong. Even humoring this, though, it doesn't really mean much. You can be Tier 1, or 2, or whatever, and still be ontologically bound/equal to a lower-tiered reality (SMT protagonists being a nice example of this. Or, really, any character who is higher-tiered by virtue of beating up a higher being without being of the same nature as this being)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And the same applies here. There needs to be evidence of the characters in the Undertale world existing as electrical signals in a literal manner, and, as it turns out, the Player being able to mess around with the gameworld by controlling data files is not that, not any more than an author entity manipulating a lower world by changing the writing on a piece of paper is. We don't really default cases like this to the scenario you are claiming here.


The Player was upgraded to Low 1-C, to begin with, was on the basis that they are the literal player of the game as contextualized inside of the verse, a basis that you still seem to abide by, given your claim that they see the gameworld as computer data in a literal sense, and usage of the Dirty Hacker Ending as evidence of such. That point contradicts the ones laid out in the OP, as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
Wait aren't we literally getting a special ending by affecting data?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And the same applies here. There needs to be evidence of the characters in the Undertale world existing as electrical signals in a literal manner, and, as it turns out, the Player being able to mess around with the gameworld by controlling data files is not that, not any more than an author entity manipulating a lower world by changing the writing on a piece of paper is. We don't really default cases like this to the scenario you are claiming here.
Click to expand...
Chara literally destroys the game deleting all its files on screen. That's more than enough evidence.
Ultima_Reality said:
The Player was upgraded to Low 1-C, to begin with, was on the basis that they are the literal player of the game as contextualized inside of the verse, a basis that you still seem to abide by, given your claim that they see the gameworld as computer data in a literal sense, and usage of the Dirty Hacker Ending as evidence of such. That point contradicts the ones laid out in the OP, as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
And I claim that literal data is not infinitely lower, as data characters are 10-C, not 11-A here. Seeing as datas is not evidence for dimensional gap, just size gap. And they are not the literal player, no one has ever said that and if that was accepted it should be changed because they're just what is supposed to take our place, but is still a in-verse entity like the DDLC real world is not literally ours but just the DDLC version of it, which exists only in said verse.
Ultima_Reality said:
Chara never really absorbed the SOUL of the Player, I don't think. It's never really stated if they do anything with it (Outside of hijacking Frisk), so, I don't think that gives you much leeway here. Although you can, of course, correct me if I am wrong. Even humoring this, though, it doesn't really mean much. You can be Tier 1, or 2, or whatever, and still be ontologically bound/equal to a lower-tiered reality (SMT protagonists being a nice example of this. Or, really, any character who is higher-tiered by virtue of beating up a higher being without being of the same nature as this being)
Click to expand...
What I still mean is that Chara is still technically bound from the rules of said world, being unable to truly leave it and the Player literally cannot overcome Chara's commands on the game (unless you count the non-canon editing) until they give the soul. If Chara was that much weaker, then the Player would have 0 issues at opposing them and restore the game anyway via their own manipulation and reset.

And they literally have said soul, as they take it to "complete themselves", as they were empthy as Flowey at the time, with Flowey describing them with the same feeling of empthyness. And they can't just leave it there, Chara asks it as they want it, implying they want it to do more than messing with Frisk.
 
I’ve already stated my thoughts on this before, I relayed such things in the upgrade thread. Even if we say perceiving something as data doesn’t qualify. The ontological relation between the player and undertale has not been disputed. As such, I don’t agree with the OP.
 
I personally think that Strym seems to make better sense in this particular case, but I am not the best person to ask.

Should I call for some other staff members as well?
 
Antvasima said:
I personally think that Strym seems to make better sense in this particular case, but I am not the best person to ask.

Should I call for some other staff members as well?
Click to expand...
None of them seems to have sided Ultima, and Eficiente is strongly against Ultima's standards even now, given that he seems to want to even upgrade this character to Low 1-C just because it contradicts his ways, as the Wiki clearly does not treat simulations/datas as dimensionally inferior, but rather just smaller on a finite degree (USBs don't hold infinite datas after all).

I don't think anyone gave me an actual counter-argument against my downgrade, given that everything in Undertale context leads it to be just data for the Player (as the data files of the game folder also play a role in the plot in certain parts) so if you want to close this, be free to do so.
 
StrymULTRA said:
None of them seems to have sided Ultima, and Eficiente is strongly against Ultima's standards even now, given that he seems to want to even upgrade this character to Low 1-C just because it contradicts his ways, as the Wiki clearly does not treat simulations/datas as dimensionally inferior, but rather just smaller on a finite degree (USBs don't hold infinite datas after all).

I don't think anyone gave me an actual counter-argument against my downgrade, given that everything in Undertale context leads it to be just data for the Player (as the data files of the game folder also play a role in the plot in certain parts) so if you want to close this, be free to do so.
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It's been only a couple hours since I sent my last message, and I'm typing the next one as we speak (Having just gotten home). I'm not sure why we'd want to rush this out.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
It's been only a couple hours since I sent my last message, and I'm typing the next one as we speak (Having just gotten home). I'm not sure why we'd want to rush this out.
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I mean, you appeared at the last second after the changes were applied and none of the staff appeared ngl. Is pretty frustrating if you ask.
 
Antvasima said:
I personally think that Strym seems to make better sense in this particular case, but I am not the best person to ask.

Should I call for some other staff members as well?
Click to expand...
StrymULTRA said:
None of them seems to have sided Ultima, and Eficiente is strongly against Ultima's standards even now, given that he seems to want to even upgrade this character to Low 1-C just because it contradicts his ways, as the Wiki clearly does not treat simulations/datas as dimensionally inferior, but rather just smaller on a finite degree (USBs don't hold infinite datas after all).

I don't think anyone gave me an actual counter-argument against my downgrade, given that everything in Undertale context leads it to be just data for the Player (as the data files of the game folder also play a role in the plot in certain parts) so if you want to close this, be free to do so.
Click to expand...
@Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @DontTalkDT @KingPin0422 @Agnaa

What do you think about this?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I mean, you appeared at the last second after the changes were applied and none of the staff appeared ngl. Is pretty frustrating if you ask.
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I understand that much, yes. But as far as I can tell, I've brought up points that haven't been raised before, and which we are still in the process of discussing (Some of my own even being misunderstood up there). Given the thread wasn't even closed yet when I appeared, I don't see much of a reason to close this. Making another CRT in response to this one would be just redundant.
 
Well, it seems better to handle this discussion here than in a new thread.
 
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