UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[RinneItachi]

My problem with DT having a page is that there's also a lot of stuff that's indeed related to DT (like Undyne's Type 2 immortality), but doesn't apply to anything else but them, like...

It manifests in different ways. That much is obvious. The physiology however also plays a role. Monster's can regenerate because their bodies are not made of organic matter. They're literally made of dust and magic, brought to life via a soul.

This sounds Frisk exclusive.

It's done via high levels of Determination. No reason to think other DT users couldn't do it unless there is any indication that it is a unique ability to Frisk despite being the result of the exact same source of power.

That's for like also monsters lol.

Yes but it's more potent via Determination.

????

They literally create physical items capable of healing.

So you do admit that your points mostly rely on unfounded premises and assumptions here. Occam's Razor says it's the Player's doing, and there aren't really hard proofs for otherwise.

Not even remotely, no. I said there's a lot to be revealed about Gaster, doesn't effect this aspect of argument in any way whatsoever. Occam's Razor says it's the Player until we literally have a narrator that is extremely likely to be Gaster seemingly manipulating the SAVE files himself at our will. Occam's Razor suggests that he is the one manipulating the SAVE files, not that he's narrating us manipulating the SAVE files for literally no reason and in a way that grammatically makes absolutely fing no sense at all no matter how you attempt to justify it. Even further suggested by the fact that Gaster seems to be heavily in control of if not the creator of the game based on reasons listed above. Occam's Razor suggests that it is not the Player's doing. However that is the "safer" and more comfortable assumption in lack of outright visible and concrete evidence rather than heavy implications.

 

[Omegabronic]

This sounds Frisk exclusive.

How so?

 

[StrymULTRA]

It manifests in different ways. That much is obvious. The physiology however also plays a role. Monster's can regenerate because their bodies are not made of organic matter. They're literally made of dust and magic, brought to life via a soul.

So you admit it's not purely DT related tbh.

Like, the physiology page already does cover it, repeating it again in this DT page sounds pretty redundant ngl.

It's done via high levels of Determination. No reason to think other DT users couldn't do it unless there is any indication that it is a unique ability to Frisk despite being the result of the exact same source of power.

The only other characters who are at that level are Asriel, Chara and The Player, and don't think that any of them are even remotely hinted to be capable of just making up their dreams/hopes pop out like that.

Yes but it's more potent via Determination.

...that happens by literally any stat boost in Undertale, even if unrelated to it.

How so?

Read above.

Not even remotely, no. I said there's a lot to be revealed about Gaster, doesn't effect this aspect of argument in any way whatsoever. Occam's Razor says it's the Player until we literally have a narrator that is extremely likely to be Gaster seemingly manipulating the SAVE files himself at our will. Occam's Razor suggests that he is the one manipulating the SAVE files, not that he's narrating us manipulating the SAVE files for literally no reason and in a way that grammatically makes absolutely fing no sense at all no matter how you attempt to justify it. Even further suggested by the fact that Gaster seems to be heavily in control of if not the creator of the game based on reasons listed above. Occam's Razor suggests that it is not the Player's doing. However that is the "safer" and more comfortable assumption in lack of outright visible and concrete evidence rather than heavy implications.

This is mostly just a nothingburger tbh. Doesn't really address what I'm saying either.

 

[RinneItachi]

So you admit it's not purely DT related tbh.

Like, the physiology page already does cover it, repeating it again in this DT page sounds pretty redundant ngl.


The only other characters who are at that level are Asriel, Chara and The Player, and don't think that any of them are even remotely hinted to be capable of just making up their dreams/hopes pop out like that.


...that happens by literally any stat boost in Undertale, even if unrelated to it.


This is mostly just a nothingburger tbh. Doesn't really address what I'm saying either.

That's what I said, yes.

Not if it's an aspect of DT and the physiology as well.

Frisk doesn't have this Determination themselves, it comes from the player. That aside, it's a Determination ability so I don't see your point.

I guess.

"I disagree so I don't care lol". Good argument bro.

Literally with a glance the context of the wording Gaster uses makes absolutely NO SENSE under what you are claiming it means. Idk how proficient you are with the English language but it actually directly contradicts what you're saying. Literally the only explanations would be that Gaster is for some reason narrating what you're doing as if he was a video game tutorial or he's just a backseat gamer. When in reality he is talking TO us and giving us options, which is by far the most logical view given the context provided, and that's just a fact regardless of what you think.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not if it's an aspect of DT and the physiology as well.

Redundancy issue (2).

Frisk doesn't have this Determination themselves, it comes from the player.

They don't remember True Resets, so this is bunk.

Literally the only explanations would be that Gaster is for some reason narrating what you're doing as if he was a video game tutorial or he's just a backseat gamer.

By the current evidence, he is, yes.

And I'm dying on this hill.

 

[RinneItachi]

They don't remember True Resets, so this is bunk.

What?

By the current evidence, he is, yes.

And I'm dying on this hill.

What current evidence?? There is no actual evidence that it is the Player in control of SAVE files in Deltarune, it is a logical ASSUMPTION that is made until contradictory evidence surfaces, which it has in this case. In the same way people assumed the Earth was the center of the universe until scientists proved them wrong, and so on and so on. To assume that Gaster in this case is acting entirely out-of-character and "pretending" to be a weird narrator of sorts in reality goes against Occam's Razor. The base assumption, especially when provided with the rest of the evidence regarding his apparent influence and control over the game, allows us a powerful inference that he is in fact in control over the SAVE files within Deltarune, not us nor Kris.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What?

The Player and Frisk don't have the same DT, otherwise Frisk would be able to remember the True Resets (unless they can't remember their own resets).

To assume that Gaster in this case is acting entirely out-of-character

Bruh Gaster doesn't even have a personality as for yet. You said it yourself, the Player being the one doing it is what is the most logical conclusion rn,especially given we assume they're the ones actually doing the actions behind stuff like True Resets (no wait, Gaster is the one doing those too, right?).

Btw still didn't get a feedback on my Gaster sandbox.

 

[RinneItachi]

My personal headcanon is that we are given control by Gaster but it is ultimately at his discretion as again we are the guest and he is the host. But until that is confirmed it's more likely to assume it's just him.

 

[RinneItachi]

The Player and Frisk don't have the same DT, otherwise Frisk would be able to remember the True Resets (unless they can't remember their own resets).

They don't. Frisk might have a small amount of DT anyways for all we know. We know literally next to nothing about them, they're more of a mystery than Gaster. What we do know is that the Player attached their/our soul onto Frisk and are using them as a puppet while using them as a medium for our Determination.

Bruh Gaster doesn't even have a personality as for yet. You said it yourself, the Player being the one doing it is what is the most logical conclusion rn,especially given we assume they're the ones actually doing the actions behind stuff like True Resets (no wait, Gaster is the one doing those too, right?).

Btw still didn't get a feedback on my Gaster sandbox.

He might not have a personality, but we can infer how he talks as Toby has created a very clear indication of Gaster's manner of speaking through the many times Gaster has spoken. He is a very literal, overly formal speaker that uses a lot of emphasis in speech. So you're literally just twisting my words now? Is that it? The Player WAS the logical ASSUMPTION until the evidence involving Gaster surfaced. True Resets aren't a thing yet in Deltarune and Undertale is separate.

Idk where the sandbox even is.

 

[Ti58]

The original file of Deltarune's download was named "SURVEY_PROGRAM", Gaster's Entry Number Seventeen text "THIS NEXT EXPERIMENT WILL BE VERY, VERY, INTERESTING." appearing on the original Deltarune website in addition to the many references of darkness in the entry, the trademarks to Deltarune and Undertale are owned by "Royal Sciences, LLC", Gaster is 99% definitely the one speaking to us about his new creation on Twitter before the releases of each chapter and even subtly references the pandemic in the second one further implying his knowledge of real world events, it is 99.9999999% definitely Gaster speaking to us at the start of Deltarune and helping us create a vessel, talking about us being connected. He also speaks to us in the download data for the original file as well.

Everything points to the game itself being literally made by Gaster canonically.

yeah i just said he made the Deltarune.exe file and the plot of it. The light world wasn't made by Gaster though. Also Gaster is metatextually a game developer (the evidence being literally everything you said).

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Player WAS the logical ASSUMPTION until the evidence involving Gaster surfaced.

Which is still not enough, as I said. I'm not repeating myself however, as I think I was clear enough here.

Idk where the sandbox even is.

StrymULTRA/GasterSandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[RinneItachi]

Which is still not enough, as I said. I'm not repeating myself however, as I think I was clear enough here.

StrymULTRA/GasterSandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

By your opinion.

Fine by me.

 

[RinneItachi]

yeah i just said he made the Deltarune.exe file and the plot of it. The light world wasn't made by Gaster though. Also Gaster is metatextually a game developer (the evidence being literally everything you said).

So you're saying the Lightworld is somehow detached from the game itself?

 

[Ti58]

So you're saying the Lightworld is somehow detached from the game itself?

Kinda? The light world parallels reality, it has no magic, no cool battles, the characters have normal issues (Asgore can't pay debt for example), Toby refuses to make plushies of Deltarune lightners like Kris or Susie etc.

Gaster, imo, "assigned" some people their roles in the story (like the Knight or Ralsei) and then connected the player to the game via the DEVICE.

Him literally creating the entirety of DeItarune is, imo, unlikely. Also consider how the window names in the light world aren't in all caps, while the dark world is called "THE DARK" and obviously all of the Goner Maker or game over stuff has all caps window names too.

By the way, his name is an anagram of the word "Stager" and Toby likes playing with anagrams

 

[StrymULTRA]

By the way, his name is an anagram of the word "Stager" and Toby likes playing with anagrams

Bruuuh didn't know.

Also realized that Gaster is mostly likely a skeleton also because of his name being literally a font (WingDing), which would prolly cement an hypothetical role the skelebros will have in DR.

 

[RinneItachi]

Kinda? The light world parallels reality, it has no magic, no cool battles, the characters have normal issues (Asgore can't pay debt for example), Toby refuses to make plushies of Deltarune lightners like Kris or Susie etc.

Gaster, imo, "assigned" some people their roles in the story (like the Knight or Ralsei) and then connected the player to the game via the DEVICE.

Him literally creating the entirety of DeItarune is, imo, unlikely. Also consider how the window names in the light world aren't in all caps, while the dark world is called "THE DARK" and obviously all of the Goner Maker or game over stuff has all caps window names too.

By the way, his name is an anagram of the word "Stager" and Toby likes playing with anagrams

That's an interesting point. We'll see how it develops.

 

[RinneItachi]

Bruuuh didn't know.

Also realized that Gaster is mostly likely a skeleton also because of his name being literally a font (WingDing), which would prolly cement an hypothetical role the skelebros will have in DR.

You didn't know that? That's literally Gaster lore 101.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You didn't know that? That's literally Gaster lore 101.

Let me be real frank here.

I simply didn't care about Gaster mostly because I just find most of his stuff too covered in mystery, I'm not the kind of guy to get hyped for something I don't even know yet.

I'm just doing some research now mostly because why not, other than me also having covered basically all of Undertale's possible information here indexing wise, hence why I'm going to retire after the current UT CRT I did and an incoming Gravity Falls one, other than the on-hold cosmology revision for that verse too.

 

[Ti58]

That's an interesting point. We'll see how it develops.

btw

 

[Imaginym]

Kinda? The light world parallels reality, it has no magic, no cool battles, the characters have normal issues (Asgore can't pay debt for example), Toby refuses to make plushies of Deltarune lightners like Kris or Susie etc.

Wait, source? Has Toby or anyone stated something like "We won't be making plushies of Kris, Susie, Noelle", etc.?

Him literally creating the entirety of DeItarune is, imo, unlikely. Also consider how the window names in the light world aren't in all caps, while the dark world is called "THE DARK" and obviously all of the Goner Maker or game over stuff has all caps window names too.

That is something interested that I had forgotten about.
What are the game over window names?

By the way, his name is an anagram of the word "Stager" and Toby likes playing with anagrams

Hmmm....

Staged death?

 

[Ti58]

Kinda? The light world parallels reality, it has no magic, no cool battles, the characters have normal issues (Asgore can't pay debt for example), Toby refuses to make plushies of Deltarune lightners like Kris or Susie etc.

Gaster, imo, "assigned" some people their roles in the story (like the Knight or Ralsei) and then connected the player to the game via the DEVICE.

Him literally creating the entirety of DeItarune is, imo, unlikely. Also consider how the window names in the light world aren't in all caps, while the dark world is called "THE DARK" and obviously all of the Goner Maker or game over stuff has all caps window names too.

By the way, his name is an anagram of the word "Stager" and Toby likes playing with anagrams

Another thing I forgot to mention:

Ralsei:

Kris, push the block onto the button with [Z]!

Susie:

Who the hell is Z?

Ralsei isn't the only darkner who knows that kind of stuff either, and while I don't think that this means that darkners like Lancer or Jigsaw Joe (both mention buttons like Z or C as well) have actual awareness of there being a player beyond this world (like the Froggit doesn't despite knowing game controls on Undertale), it just further proves than darkners are more like video game characters than lightners are.

 

[Ti58]

Wait, source? Has Toby or anyone stated something like "We won't be making plushies of Kris, Susie, Noelle", etc.?

That is something interested that I had forgotten about.
What are the game over window names?

Hmmm....

Staged death?

Yes.

Game over is "THE DEATH"

wdym staged death?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Why would the game be improved by NOT selling merch?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why would the game be improved by NOT selling merch?

He's talking about this.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm not sure I understand the connection, especially if there's meant to be one between the two Tumblr posts.

Do they have something to read between the lines? Some explanation to infer on why certain Lightners don't get plushies?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do they have something to read between the lines? Some explanation to infer on why certain Lightners don't get plushies?

I was confused too a bit, but the reason is because Lightners are a parallel to the real world, while Darkners are instead to fiction (Card Kingdom being kids' toys, Cyber World being a virtual reality, etc), meaning that making plushies of Lightners according to Toby would be like making plushies of real people, aka making them fictional.

 

[Imaginym]

I was confused too a bit, but the reason is because Lightners are a parallel to the real world, while Darkners are instead to fiction (Card Kingdom being kids' toys, Cyber World being a virtual reality, etc), meaning that making plushies of Lightners according to Toby would be like making plushies of real people, aka making them fictional.

I suppose that could be it. Disappointing if so.

Troubling, too. Does this mean Kris, Susie & Noelle are based on real people, yet Ralsei isn't?? Or did Toby just make them up yet feels that they "feel" real??

 

[StrymULTRA]

yet Ralsei isn't

Ralsei is what again?

Or did Toby just make them up yet feels that they "feel" real??

I think it's a symbolic thing rather than literally believing they're real.

 

[Imaginym]

Ralsei is what again?

Of a likeness that Toby considers eligible to make plushies of.

I think it's a symbolic thing rather than literally believing they're real.

He thinks a lot of Light Worlders are symbolic of real people, is what you think?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Of a likeness that Toby considers eligible to make plushies of.

I mean Ralsei is still a Darkner, no matter how important to the story he is.

He thinks a lot of Light Worlders are symbolic of real people, is what you think?

Yeah. He thinks that making plushies of them undermines their role in the actual DR story, at least is what I got.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean Ralsei is still a Darkner, no matter how important to the story he is.

Yeah. He thinks that making plushies of them undermines their role in the actual DR story, at least is what I got.

It's a strange & frustrating take for Toby to take is my take, but I believe that I could believe it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's a strange & frustrating take for Toby to take is my take, but I believe that I could believe it.

I mean, it's why we don't have an official plush of Frisk/Chara either, because of the exact same reason.

The story of Deltarune is about freedom, something that Darkners technically don't have as unlike real people, they're just objects bound to what they're built for, they cannot change their purpose. A Kris plush would indirectly mean that they're just a puppet, according to Toby.

 

[Ti58]

I mean, it's why we don't have an official plush of Frisk/Chara either, because of the exact same reason.

The story of Deltarune is about freedom, something that Darkners technically don't have as unlike real people, they're just objects bound to what they're built for, they cannot change their purpose. A Kris plush would indirectly mean that they're just a puppet, according to Toby.

It's also about fiction and how people in real life interact with it.

 

[Ti58]

It's a strange & frustrating take for Toby to take is my take, but I believe that I could believe it.

As StrymULTRA already said, this is also why Chara doesn't have a plush.

They're likely a meta representation of the feeling you get from numbers rising and the desire to play the game until there's no content left.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As StrymULTRA already said, this is also why Chara doesn't have a plush.

They're likely a meta representation of the feeling you get from numbers rising and the desire to play the game until there's no content left.

Chara is meant to be a representation of the Player, as we are who choose their name, and Flowey confused Frisk for Chara because of him feeling inside of the child the Player, who he has mistaken for Chara because of both them and us having not only the factor of being unpredictable (something he's attracted to), and Chara also saying at the ending of a second genocide that "you and I aren't really the same, aren't we?", hinting that Chara is supposed to be us, in a way.

 

[Ti58]

Chara is meant to be a representation of the Player, as we are who choose their name, and Flowey confused Frisk for Chara because of him feeling inside of the child the Player, who he has mistaken for Chara because of both them and us having not only the factor of being unpredictable (something he's attracted to), and Chara also saying at the ending of a second genocide that "you and I aren't really the same, aren't we?", hinting that Chara is supposed to be us, in a way.

What I said still counts as a representation of the player though.

HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.
Every time a number increases, that feeling...
That's me.
"Chara."

Text above supports my point from my previous comment

They aren't literally the player though, but in some ways they do represent us, especially on the genocide route with dialogue like "It's me, Chara"

 

[StrymULTRA]

What I said still counts as a representation of the player though.


Text above supports my point from my previous comment

They aren't literally the player though, but in some ways they do represent us, especially on the genocide route with dialogue like "It's me, Chara"

Aka.... what I said. I was agreeing with you.

 

[Omegabronic]

The Player and Frisk don't have the same DT, otherwise Frisk would be able to remember the True Resets (unless they can't remember their own resets).

Considering that the player controls them.......would it matter if they remember or not? They are forced to do whatever the player wants anyway

Btw still didn't get a feedback on my Gaster sandbox.

put "possible father of Sans and Papyrus" in the classification

 

[Omegabronic]

Kinda? The light world parallels reality, it has no magic

as far as we know

 

[StrymULTRA]

Considering that the player controls them.......would it matter if they remember or not? They are forced to do whatever the player wants anyway

Flowey explicitly says that Frisk forgets alongside him.