Undertale and how Low tiers are handled

[StrymULTRA]

The descriptions say otherwise though.

Plus it does not say it's magical.

 

[ShionAH]

The descriptions say otherwise though.

Like?

Plus it does not say it's magical.

It says its vastly different and turns into energy which is why it heals your SOUL and you instantly

 

[StrymULTRA]

Like?

like Butterscotch Pie, Bisicle (which is just a popsicle), Cinnamon Bunny (just a cinnamon roll) or the Legendary Hero (which is just a sandwich).

^

It says its vastly different and turns into energy which is why it heals your SOUL and you instantly

Yeah... but it's not the topic anyway. The thing is that Sans can apply his soul hax to stuff without a SOUL (like Giygas can mind hax beings without a mind, the DDLC Player can time hax Monika despite that in her NEP state she's BDE 1, etc).

Meaning he can kill soulless stuff like robots like he can kill Frisk.

 

[ShionAH]

^

Uh "just a xxxx" doesn't mean anything. The descriptions are like that because they are common for monsters

Yeah... but it's not the topic anyway. The thing is that Sans can apply his soul hax stuff without a SOUL (like Giygas can mind hax beings without a mind, the DDLC Player can time hax Monika despite that in her NEP state she's BDE 1, etc).

Meaning he can kill soulless stuff like robots like he can kill Frisk.

Yes. Thats why his KR can work on the body too. He can kill a robot because he can dura neg the body

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uh "just a xxxx" doesn't mean anything. The descriptions are like that because they are common for monsters

Yes. Thats why his KR can work on the body too. He can kill a robot because he can dura neg the body

Well... idk about that, not that it matters anyways so .

The thing is to get rid of that "10-B, 9-A via Magic" and give him just 9-B with dura neg even on Soulless stuff.

 

[ShionAH]

The thing is to get rid of that "10-B, 9-A via Magic" and give him just 9-B with dura neg even on Soulless stuff.

We give him 9-B with dura neg that effects the soul and the body. KR can simply effect the body too

 

[Chianli]

man so UT sould hax is body ype hax aswell?, never knew this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We give him 9-B with dura neg that effects the soul and the body. KR can simply effect the body too

Why does this matter here though?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with the downgrade for reasons above.

 

[ShionAH]

Why does this matter here though?

He doesnt negate soul immunity. He simply dura negs the body

 

[Chianli]

I disagree with the downgrade for reasons above.

tbh I agree, it honestly both makes sense and doesn't make sense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He doesnt negate soul immunity. He simply dura negs the body

Dude, this ain't the focus of the CRT. The thing is about stats shit and Sans being able to hax soulless stuff.

The type of dura neg was already a thing before this jfc.

 

[ShionAH]

Dude, this ain't the focus of the CRT. The thing is about stats shit and Sans being able to hax soulless stuff.

This is what I disagree with, he just simply negates normal body durability

The type of dura neg was already a thing before this jfc.

He had a Soul dura neg but now he should have both body and soul dura neg

 

[StrymULTRA]

He had a Soul dura neg but now he should have both body and soul dura neg

That's for another thread.

Now shut up and focus on the main thing here.

 

[ShionAH]

That's for another thread.

Now shut up and focus on the main thing here.

, Neutral on the stat stuff since it hurts my brain

 

[ImmortalDread]

"Shut up"


Bro when you want to convince someone, forcing them ain't helping your argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

You should be the last to talk when you say random shit here.

Besides, they brought Sans' type of dura neg which is unrelated here and should be for another thread kek.

 

[ShionAH]

Besides, they brought Sans' type of dura neg which is unrelated here and should be for another thread kek.

Dude, this ain't the focus of the CRT. The thing is about stats shit and Sans being able to hax soulless stuff.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It was brought as an explanation to why Sans can still damage Flowey.

The type of dura neg is something that you brought here. I am only arguing what it can apply to, not the type of it.

You already did this kind of derailment on the Immeasurable speed CRT, don't do that here too please.

 

[Chianli]

my guy is pulling a spamton freakout rn

 

[ShionAH]

It was brought as an explanation to why Sans can still damage Flowey.

The type of dura neg is something that you brought here. I am only arguing what it can apply to, not the type of it.

You already did this kind of derailment on the Immeasurable speed CRT, don't do that here too please.

Understood

 

[ShionAH]

The STATs in Undertale here for low levels are an inconsistent mess which doesn't exactly make sense.

Let's see what is wrong here.

• Sans: 1 ATK/1DEF and is 10-B
• Moldsmal: 0 DEF and has 9-B durability
• Jerry: 0 ATK and is 10-C
• Vulkin: 0 DEF and has 9-B Durability
• Shyren: 0 DEF and has 9-B Durability
• Glad Dummy: 0 ATK/DEF and is 10-B
• Snowdrake's Mother: -12 ATK/-4 DEF and is 10-C
• A LV 1 Human with 0 DEF and no DT can tank literally two 9-B durability feats

Some other things are:

• Sans with 1 ATK has a Tier 9 feat which is either 9-C+ or 9-B
• Snowdrake's Mother is as big as a refrigerator, which should make her 9-C

Yeah, you can see where I am heading at. 0 DEF in Undertale is 9-B, and this is made from humans who are very casual and not empowered from DT, so everyone who is 0 or higher should be 9-B as a result, with also the supportive feats I have for this.

Tldr: Every Tier 10 in Undertale should become 9-B outside of Snowdrake's Mother who is 9-C instead.

Edit: Sans' 9-A through TK should be nuked. He doesn't need the TK to deal 1 damage, his normal attacks to that without KR. Meaning that Sans himself is 9-A if we accept this, so yeah... no. He should be just 9-B.

Actually reading this again I think this makes sense. I agree

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They can tank with no damage Undyne's oven exploding even with 0 DEF and they have 0 ATK too. Meaning that their AP = Dura with no items and no DT.

Nah, we just know that Frisk before and after that interaction has 0 ATK and DEF, like literally any fight they do.
This would just make Frisk "10-C, 9-B with minimal determination..."

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nah, we just know that Frisk before and after that interaction has 0 ATK and DEF, like literally any fight they do.
This would just make Frisk "10-C, 9-B with minimal determination..."

Chara is just a random kid as Frisk and could take a 9-B fall outside of a fight, and Frisk tanks that over in a non-fighting situation too. This makes no sense.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Chara is just a random kid as Frisk and could take a 9-B fall outside of a fight, and Frisk tanks that over in a non-fighting situation too. This makes no sense.

DT would most likely active even more than normal when someone is about to die, so yeah, that's just DT making Chara 9-B

 

[StrymULTRA]

DT would most likely active even more than normal when someone is about to die, so yeah, that's just DT making Chara 9-B

That's headcanon and you know it.

Yourself admitted it activates only in a fight, this is nonsense.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Pretty we already consider LOADing to be a spike in DT, and Flowery pulled the same thing when he was about to die the first time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's when is LOADing, not DT.

Plus you're assuming that humans don't use said DT when fighting fodders, and using your logic it means that monsters still scale from that as they're superior to a DT amount which is used for a non-fighting situation lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Snip.

Shouldn't you calc the AP Snowdrake's Mother would get from her size and weight though?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's when is LOADing, not DT.

Plus you're assuming that humans don't use said DT when fighting fodders, and using your logic it means that monsters still scale from that as they're superior to a DT amount which is used for a non-fighting situation lol.

LOADing is a result of DT, no?

Also don't see why lethal non-fight situations would be inferior to a fighting one?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also don't see why lethal non-fight situations would be inferior to a fighting one?

This literally answers by itself.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This literally answers by itself.

Lets put this way, in which one would Frisk feel "the desire to keep living and punch destiny in the face"
1) When they're about to die from a fall
2) When they're fighting someone who refuses to kill them, and will give up if they come back 3 times

 

[StrymULTRA]

The explosion feat happened literally when they were off guard lmao.

It's not like they prepared for it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I was mostly talking about Chara,
Frisk gets determined by the most basic things, I think the training would have gotten them pretty determined tbh

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's pretty much headcanon with 0 basis, you're being overly nitpicky here.

It was only a cooking session with Undyne, not a fighting training lmao.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Frisk' stats actually follow the in-game stats, so i think we can chalk it up to gameplay mechanics

 

[StrymULTRA]

They're displayed in the Check menu though.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Probably because we actually needed the in-game stats in game lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

I read a lot of "I think" and "Maybe" here.

This just ain't it chief. Though I think the best argument is Moldsmal scaling from Frisk as they can tank their blows and harm them (given Moldsmal has 6 ATK and 0 DEF, meaning that 0 downscales from 6 here) with Frisk having equal ATK and DEF at minimal DT.

 

[Roachman40]

It doesn't really need that though? We have already an ATK value for them, which should be enough for what they do offensively.

I can see an "Unknown, likely 9-B" at worst, but I just don't see it given their ATK is same as their DEF which is 9-B.

I mean them having the same statistics as their DEF (well, for glad dummy specifically) is kinda what I mean tho, both are 0 which means they dont really have any DEF or ATK at all, only being able to survive hits via HP alone. Monsters that have 0 DEF I dont think should instantly be assumed to be 9-B in durability because its really determined on HP at that point, not DEF, so to speak.

1. In this case it was bigger than Frisk, and Frisk couldn't take it as different from a real one, which is 250 pounds (or 113 kg) heavy.
   
   
2. Her being weak just means that the rest upscales. We already have 8-C to everyone in Deltarune based on the weakest attack of the game when the "strongest" attacks are 9-B to 9-A at best.
   
   Literally even with the lowest of the calcs you get in Kilojoule range for that.

I mean its only stated that it looks like an ordinary fridge to frisk aye? I doubt a semi-large pile of goo could reach similar weights to a fridge tbh.