Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

nice 'nu-uh'

Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation

Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail over “先生の中で”.

Also:

Taken from Dragon Box: The Movies

If executor can translate these scans too that’d be a W

Where are these more rough scans from? I can get a better quality version for the thread.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Where are these more rough scans from? I can get a better quality version for the thread.

The one pineapple sent http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-5-19&fpp=10&fid=206

Mine: http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-5-19&fpp=10&fid=163

鸟山明漫画资料馆 - 七龙珠|阿拉蕾|鸟山明中短篇|龙珠AF|龙珠Multiverse|完全版|大全集

鸟山漫画资料馆即七龙珠在线漫画，包括龙珠、阿拉蕾各版本的在线漫画、鸟山明的中短篇漫画、龙珠的资料书籍、鸟山明的部分资料书籍等。ドラゴンボール鳥山明の世界。

comic.dragonballcn.com

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The one pineapple sent http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-5-19&fpp=10&fid=206

Mine: http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-5-19&fpp=10&fid=163

鸟山明漫画资料馆 - 七龙珠|阿拉蕾|鸟山明中短篇|龙珠AF|龙珠Multiverse|完全版|大全集

鸟山漫画资料馆即七龙珠在线漫画，包括龙珠、阿拉蕾各版本的在线漫画、鸟山明的中短篇漫画、龙珠的资料书籍、鸟山明的部分资料书籍等。ドラゴンボール鳥山明の世界。

comic.dragonballcn.com

Slightly higher quality version of Pineapple's scan:

Translation: "Where does the theatrical version of 'DRAGON BALL' stand in the context of the series? Toriyama views the theatrical version as being in a 'different dimension from the main manga storyline.' He checks the plots and scripts that come from Toei Animation. He's completely taken on the role of a viewer. What is Toriyama-sensei's role in the movie? He is involved in tasks like designing characters and making adjustments."

---

Higher quality version of your scan:

Translation: "What is depicted here is the story set in the future world where Teenage Trunks existed. In other words, it is a different world from the one that unfolded in the original work and the TV series. It's an event that occurred within a different history."

---

The red one:

Translation: "The timing can be deduced from the fact that the scene of Cell's eradication and Gohan's inability to transform into a Super Saiyan were depicted in the movie. However, at that time, Goku might have been either bedridden due to a contagious disease or undergoing training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. It can be considered a parallel world event."

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Genuinely a miracle this even managed to register.

ここで描かれているのは、青年トランクスがいた未来世界での物語。つまり原作及びTV版で進行した世界とは、異なある歴史の中での出来事なのだ。

---

"What is depicted here is the story of the future world in which the young Trunks lived. In other words, it takes place in a history that is different from the world of the original story and the TV version."

...which means, "This story takes place in the future."

先生の中での劇場版「DRAGONBALL」の位置づけは?
鳥山
劇場版は「漫画本編とは別次元の話だな」ととらえています

---

"What is your position on the movie version of "DRAGONBALL"?"
Toriyama
"I see the movie version as "a different dimension from the original story"."

I'd like to point out, though, that "次元" can mean "dimension" and "perspective".

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here, and why?

 

[Executor_N0]

I can't be as precise with the translations this time (Too much other work to do), but the MT here kind of do the work already. Although I need to point out that it uses Toriyama as a subject in the text, when it should be something like:
Toriyama: I see the theatrical version as "a different dimension from the original story of the manga"

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I can't be as precise with the translations this time (Too much other work to do), but the MT here kind of do the work already. Although I need to point out that it uses Toriyama as a subject in the text, when it should be something like:
Toriyama: I see the theatrical version as "a different dimension from the original story of the manga"

That's me not formatting the text properly, GPT assumed it was all bundled up in the same line.

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here, and why?

 

[Executor_N0]

If needed, this is from the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special booklet. It's a book all about the development of anime and movies in special and talks about Toriyama's relationship with anime development. This page is the "Akira Toriyama's Memos" (鳥山明メモだ) and is about the notes Toriyama makes for the anime staff for original ideas.

いくら原作者といっても、アニメのドラゴンボールをみるのは、みなさんと同じ水曜日の7時です。 自分でマンガに描いておきながら展開を忘れてしまっている場合や、 アニメだけのオリジナルな内容の時、迫力のあるシーンなどで盛り上がっている時など、 「どうなるんだろ・・・」などと、けっこうドキドキして晩ゴハンを食べながら、楽しくみせてもらっています。 あたりまえのことですがアニメにはアニメならではの良さがあり、マンガにはマンガならではの良さがあります。みなさんも、アニメとマンガ、似ているようで、それぞれ微妙にちがった世界を持っているふたつの 「ドラゴンボール」を、ぜひお楽しみください。 (ところでわが家は5人家族ですが、 アニメもマンガもドラゴンボールをみているのはボクひとりです。とほほ･･･。 ま、いいけどね)

Akira Toriyama: Even though I'm the original author, I watch the Dragon Ball anime just like everyone else, at 7 o'clock on Wednesdays. Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun. Everyone, both the manga and anime are similar, but they are slightly different worlds even though both have "Dragon Ball", you'll certainly enjoy both of them. (By the way, my house family has people, but I'm the only one who watches both the anime and manga of Dragon Bal... Hoho... Well, that is good.)

アニメ版ドラゴンボールZのオリジナル部分の基本となる鳥山明先生のアイディアメモを大公開!
The basis for the original parts of the anime version of Dragon Ball Z, Akira Toriyama-sensei's idea memo, is now open to the public!

「ドラゴンボールZ」では原作にはないオリジナルエピソードがふんだんに盛り込まれている。この原作に登場しない部分は、すべて鳥山明先生の考えたアイディアをもとにして作られているんだ。 鳥山明先生がアニメの製作スタッフに自分の考えを伝えるために描いたアイディアメモがこの「鳥山明メモ」なのだ! このページではアニメで使われた鳥山明先生のアイディアを紹介しちゃうゾ!
"Dragon Ball Z" has various original episodes that are not in the original. The parts that don't appear in the original work, are all created based on Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas. This "Akira Toyirama Memo" is an idea memo drawn by Akira Toriyama-sensei to convey his thoughts to the anime development staff!
On this page, we'll introduce Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas that were used in the anime!

さて、蛇の道ってどんなところなんだろうか?あの雲の下には何があるのだろう? 鳥山明先生は、みんなの気になるそんなところもちゃんと考えているのダ。原作では明かされなかった部分がわかっちゃうなんて、ちょっとトクした気分だね。
So what is Serpentine Road like? What's under those clouds? Akira Toriyama-sensei really thought about things everyone cares about. It feels a little advantageous to learn about things that weren't revealed in the original work.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If needed, this is from the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special booklet. It's a book all about the development of anime and movies in special and talks about Toriyama's relationship with anime development. This page is the "Akira Toriyama's Memos" (鳥山明メモだ) and is about the notes Toriyama makes for the anime staff for original ideas.

いくら原作者といっても、アニメのドラゴンボールをみるのは、みなさんと同じ水曜日の7時です。 自分でマンガに描いておきながら展開を忘れてしまっている場合や、 アニメだけのオリジナルな内容の時、迫力のあるシーンなどで盛り上がっている時など、 「どうなるんだろ・・・」などと、けっこうドキドキして晩ゴハンを食べながら、楽しくみせてもらっています。 あたりまえのことですがアニメにはアニメならではの良さがあり、マンガにはマンガならではの良さがあります。みなさんも、アニメとマンガ、似ているようで、それぞれ微妙にちがった世界を持っているふたつの 「ドラゴンボール」を、ぜひお楽しみください。 (ところでわが家は5人家族ですが、 アニメもマンガもドラゴンボールをみているのはボクひとりです。とほほ･･･。 ま、いいけどね)

Akira Toriyama: Even though I'm the original author, I watch the Dragon Ball anime just like everyone else, at 7 o'clock on Wednesdays. Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun. Everyone, both the manga and anime are similar, but they are slightly different worlds even though both have "Dragon Ball", you'll certainly enjoy both of them. (By the way, my house family has people, but I'm the only one who watches both the anime and manga of Dragon Bal... Hoho... Well, that is good.)

アニメ版ドラゴンボールZのオリジナル部分の基本となる鳥山明先生のアイディアメモを大公開!
The basis for the original parts of the anime version of Dragon Ball Z, Akira Toriyama-sensei's idea memo, is now open to the public!

「ドラゴンボールZ」では原作にはないオリジナルエピソードがふんだんに盛り込まれている。この原作に登場しない部分は、すべて鳥山明先生の考えたアイディアをもとにして作られているんだ。 鳥山明先生がアニメの製作スタッフに自分の考えを伝えるために描いたアイディアメモがこの「鳥山明メモ」なのだ! このページではアニメで使われた鳥山明先生のアイディアを紹介しちゃうゾ!
"Dragon Ball Z" has various original episodes that are not in the original. The parts that don't appear in the original work, are all created based on Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas. This "Akira Toyirama Memo" is an idea memo drawn by Akira Toriyama-sensei to convey his thoughts to the anime development staff!
On this page, we'll introduce Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas that were used in the anime!

さて、蛇の道ってどんなところなんだろうか?あの雲の下には何があるのだろう? 鳥山明先生は、みんなの気になるそんなところもちゃんと考えているのダ。原作では明かされなかった部分がわかっちゃうなんて、ちょっとトクした気分だね。
So what is Serpentine Road like? What's under those clouds? Akira Toriyama-sensei really thought about things everyone cares about. It feels a little advantageous to learn about things that weren't revealed in the original work.

Well, with that it proves that the anime is good to use for cosmology for 2-C, since the entire original story of the anime was done by Akira toriyama.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Which staff members think what here, and why?

We are tied, with four team members disagreeing and four agreeing .

What's more, some calculation members also disagree.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Toriyama writing the concept is all that is needed for the concept to be applicable to the mainline continuity?

'cuz, i got some nekomajin-flavored concepts i'd like to integrate

 

[Omegabronic]

We are tied, with four team members disagreeing and four agreeing .

What's more, some calculation members also disagree.

not really as of now, we are still waiting for several staff to re evaluate the thread based on the summary posted, what's more, we have 2 disagreements for GT and the Movies to be alternate timelines, and 3 agrees for them to still be composited within reason of what Akira created, it would helpful if someone could tag them again for the summary however

Which staff members think what here, and why?

Could you tag the staff to this summary again? this is extending far more than it really should

 

[Omegabronic]

Toriyama writing the concept is all that is needed for the concept to be applicable to the mainline continuity?

'cuz, i got some nekomajin-flavored concepts i'd like to integrate

i mean....................try it lol

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

not really as of now, we are still waiting for several staff to re evaluate the thread based on the summary posted, what's more, we have 2 disagreements for GT and the Movies to be alternate timelines, and 3 agrees for them to still be composited within reason of what Akira created, it would helpful if someone could tag them again for the summary however

In fact, you can't skew the votes like that, we still have four disagreeing with that.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Could you tag the staff to this summary again? this is extending far more than it really should

Also, this is out of date, there have been more arguments and more evidence besides these.

 

[Omegabronic]

In fact, you can't skew the votes like that, we still have four disagreeing with that.

not so simple, the thread devolved into 2 topics, 1 being whether or not GT and Movies are cannon alternate timelines, and the other being whether or not the cosmology can still be cross scaled regardless of that, we still need to seetle on one of those 2

 

[Omegabronic]

Also, this is out of date, there have been more arguments and more evidence besides these.

not really no, the arguments are the same, the evidence for the arguments may be more, but if none of you will make a summary for the supposed new arguments then we have no other option but to go to the already made summary, unless you really think staff will read more 4 pages of people going back and forth that is, if you think that what was presented is note worthy then make a summary for that so that i can put in the existing one or stop complaining, like, if i made a summary, you certainly can as well

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I already posted my main thoughts on the matter. But long story short, I disagree with the OP via reasons stated by Executor.

Honestly, I’ve been through like 20 different threads now regarding the shared cosmology. I’m not saying I blindly agree with how that stuff is applied to Dragon Ball on the wiki currently, but I’ve seen too much evidence in favour of the shared cosmology

I disagree with the OP’s proposals

Are your opinions the same or have they changed?

 

[Omegabronic]

here is the summary posted, be sure to vote for one of the tallies in it

https://vsbattles.com/threads/uncompositing-the-dragon-ball-cosmology.157344/post-5980669

 

[Executor_N0]

Toriyama writing the concept is all that is needed for the concept to be applicable to the mainline continuity?

'cuz, i got some nekomajin-flavored concepts i'd like to integrate

As far as I know Nakomajin is canon to DB, it's constantly featured in the DB guidebooks, even the Nekomajin-exclusive abilities are in the Daizenshuu, and the characters and species featured in Nekomakin are also there.

 

[Deagonx]

Which staff members think what here, and why?

The vote is currently split, with myself, Damage, Maverick, and KingTempest agreeing, and with Lonkitt, DDM, LordGriffin, and Lephyr disagreeing.

I object to the composite cosmology as the series has an established function through which timelines are created, and they are accounted for in the box of time rings we see, which leaves no room for these non-canon movies or GT to exist (and they were not created through the function described to make timelines) and thus we cannot assume that they have completely identical cosmologies.

@LephyrTheRevanchist offered something of a middle ground where he seems to recognize that GT can't be considered part of a composite by says anything Toriyama is known to have written should be included, which I am perfectly okay with, so that solution could be considered a 5-3 vote perhaps but I'd like Lephyr to clarify so we can get this wrapped up.

 

[Da3ggman]

anything Toriyama is known to have written should be included,

Oh God, is Lady Red going to be canon to Dragon Ball?

 

[Deagonx]

Oh God, is Lady Red going to be canon to Dragon Ball?

I believe he's referring to actual DB media.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

As far as I know Nakomajin is canon to DB, it's constantly featured in the DB guidebooks,

Featured in the Chozenshu.

even the Nekomajin-exclusive abilities are in the Daizenshuu

The Chozenshu, which covers the bulk of the franchise up to that date.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The vote is currently split, with myself, Damage, Maverick, and KingTempest agreeing, and with Lonkitt, DDM, LordGriffin, and Lephyr disagreeing.

I object to the composite cosmology as the series has an established function through which timelines are created, and they are accounted for in the box of time rings we see, which leaves no room for these non-canon movies or GT to exist (and they were not created through the function described to make timelines) and thus we cannot assume that they have completely identical cosmologies.

@LephyrTheRevanchist offered something of a middle ground where he seems to recognize that GT can't be considered part of a composite by says anything Toriyama is known to have written should be included, which I am perfectly okay with, so that solution could be considered a 5-3 vote perhaps but I'd like Lephyr to clarify so we can get this wrapped up.

I have said from the start I'm neutral, actually.

The only thing I have given full agreement is the stuff that Toriyama gave direct input should be considered. So yeh.

 

[Deagonx]

I have said from the start I'm neutral, actually.

The only thing I have given full agreement is the stuff that Toriyama gave direct input should be considered. So yeh.

Well, for what is worth, I'm on the same boat as LordGriffin here. Whether GT exists on a different timeline to Super or not, completely neutral (that was even my position back when it was first proposed).

However, are the cosmologies still the same? I would definitely say so. Specially after Executor's points.

I had thought you said you were in agreeance with LG.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I had thought you said you were in agreeance with LG.

"Whether GT exists on a different timeline to Super or not, completely neutral"

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not sure I understand. The main goal of the OP is to decomposite the cosmology (as in, do not take it as a matter of course that the cosmologies from the movies and GT are the same as canon DB). Can you clarify your view on that?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm not sure I understand. The main goal of the OP is to decomposite the cosmology (as in, do not take it as a matter of course that the cosmologies from the movies and GT are the same as canon DB). Can you clarify your view on that?

Neutral. Again.

Canon elements shared through Z-anime, retained.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, then I'll rephrase the tally.

Agree: Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, KingTempest, Damage3245
Disagree: LordGriffin1000, DarkDragonMedeus, Lonkitt
Neutral: LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think Executor's interpretation makes the most sense; I don't disagree that there are some differences between what does or doesn't exist between original manga + Super and the Toei continuity + GT and (Movies to an extent). But the structure of the universe as the nature of the Otherworld Vs Living World has still remained consistent amongst all mediums.

 

[Lonkitt]

Are your opinions the same or have they changed?

The same for me

 

[Omegabronic]

I still think Executor's interpretation makes the most sense; I don't disagree that there are some differences between what does or doesn't exist between original manga + Super and the Toei continuity + GT and (Movies to an extent). But the structure of the universe as the nature of the Otherworld Vs Living World has still remained consistent amongst all mediums.

The same for me

but what are your opinions about whether or not GT/Movies are cannon as alternate timelines? are you guys' opinion on that?

 

[pineappleman]

As far as I know Nakomajin is canon to DB, it's constantly featured in the DB guidebooks, even the Nekomajin-exclusive abilities are in the Daizenshuu, and the characters and species featured in Nekomakin are also there.

Funnily enough, Freeza being revived in Super and being made significantly more powerful than the rest of the cast only makes the feasibility of Nekomajin being canonical higher, since Freeza's said to be alive, has a son, and Vegeta works under him iirc

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

"Not a separate entity from the main series" "parallel world" "different dimension" we can talk about GT once this is out of the way, but the movies are definitely timelines considering all that. Toriyama's usage of dimension (次元) in a setting related context is already clear in the manga.

 

[Deagonx]

"Not a separate entity from the main series" "parallel world" "different dimension" we can talk about GT once this is out of the way, but the movies are definitely timelines considering all that. Toriyama's usage of dimension (次元) in a setting related context is already clear in the manga.

Them being "timelines" of some nature doesn't mean they have a shared cosmology, as they clearly are not among the timelines we are shown in the series via the time rings.

 

[pineappleman]

Them being "timelines" of some nature doesn't mean they have a shared cosmology, as they clearly are not among the timelines we are shown in the series via the time rings.

bro's trying to loop back to the same argument that was addressed and finished 3 days ago ignore and move on

 

[Deagonx]

It was brought up again, so I addressed it again.

 

[Omegabronic]

bro's trying to loop back to the same argument that was addressed and finished 3 days ago ignore and move on

ngl, everyone here repeated and lingered on that point for multiple days