Tsuki Ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu General Discussion Thread

[YungManzi]

Hmm.. I still think we can just scale it directly to the arrow feat.

And honestly, considering it shaved off his life and is a special power like Hibiki’s concept empowerment, it makes sense for it to be a really strong ability. And I think Sofia’s statements support that.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Hmm.. I still think we can just scale it directly to the arrow feat.

And honestly, considering it shaved off his life and is a special power like Hibiki’s concept empowerment, it makes sense for it to be a really strong ability. And I think Sofia’s statements support that.

The fact that it was directly compared with Japan nukes would go against the idea of it being that high plus the math I just showed (after all, using the explosion formula it would need to be ridiculously bigger to give results close to the arrow), but I guess that I could accept to scale it to the nuke as long is under a possible (though staff would also need to accept it).

 

[YungManzi]

The fact that it was directly compared with Japan nukes would go against the idea of it being that high plus the math I just showed (after all, using the explosion formula it would need to be ridiculously bigger to give results close to the arrow), but I guess that I could accept to scale it to the nuke as long is under a possible (though staff would also need to accept it).

I mean... It's entirely possible the nuclear explosion is just more powerful as a result of it being in the goddess's world. Just like everything and everyone else from earth.

As far as I'm aware, via the way the cosmology works, even people who can destroy buildings with casual attacks would get mauled by normal earth bears.

 

[YungManzi]

So...I think Hibiki can scale down from 5-B (Or whatever Makoto's current rating tur into) with conceptual empowerment via being able to slightly injure Makoto (Granted, she had to build up to that power over the course of the fight).

In the end, it finished with Hibiki being unable to pass a single proper attack and was only able to cause a wound on the level of a scrape, and Makoto hit her in the shoulder with an arrow.

^Not sure if this counts but it's worth considering.
When talking about whether or not she should somewhat scale with empowerment, it's also worth mentioning that Makoto was really impressed by Hibiki's power.

“…This is…strong!!” (Makoto)
At first, Makoto was thinking about crushing it in his hands, but understanding that it would be hard to do, he tried to shift its trajectory forcefully with his hand.
“!! He stopped the wave with his hand?!” (Hibiki)

(…Doing an Iai with no scabbard, and be able to release a sword wave with that much power… Even though she is already outrageous by being able to do this much against an opponent that she can’t attack properly, she is even able to use her sword waves as bullets… Just what’s going through that head of hers? Oh right, first of all…) (Makoto)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If we use the scrape logic then we would end scaling a baby kitty to Mike Tayson.

Also, if Hibiki is upgraded to 5-B then you may as well upgrade all the verse to that, including first key Makoto. Hibiki, Trash and any non-god tier have no business with Makoto, like at all.

 

[YungManzi]

Also, if Hibiki is upgraded to 5-B then you may as well upgrade all the verse to that, including first key Makoto. Hibiki, Trash and any non-god tier have no business with Makoto, like at all.

Thing is, nobody actually scales to Hibiki with conceptual empowerment. Both directly and even indirectly.

The very nature of her power makes it so she can grow vastly stronger in one interaction but not as strong in another (Because the power difference relies on how powerful others perceive her to be), so it's entirely possible she was only that strong because of Makoto hyping her up in his head.

What I'd suggest for Hibiki would be

.Varies, Up to 5-B with Conceptual Empowerment

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

So...I think Hibiki can scale down from 5-B (Or whatever Makoto's current rating tur into) with conceptual empowerment via being able to slightly injure Makoto (Granted, she had to build up to that power over the course of the fight).


^Not sure if this counts but it's worth considering.
When talking about whether or not she should somewhat scale with empowerment, it's also worth mentioning that Makoto was really impressed by Hibiki's power.

you're smoking the good stuff
also Makoto has been a simp for Hibiki since the begining.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

again some characters AP and Dura doesn't match.

 

[YungManzi]

you're smoking the good stuff
also Makoto has been a simp for Hibiki since the begining.

Lol, it makes sense though. Makoto is indeed a major simp for Hibiki at this point and literally sees her as near perfect in every aspect, so his concept of her buffing her to 5-B in that one moment isn't completely crazy

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Lol, it makes sense though. Makoto is indeed a major simp for Hibiki at this point and literally sees her as near perfect in every aspect, so his concept of her buffing her to 5-B in that one moment isn't completely crazy

yes and no.

 

[YungManzi]

yes and no.

“Honestly, I had already seen what Senpai could do at Meiris Lake, and it was mostly what I had expected, but…” (Makoto)

“But, what?” (Lime)

“How to say it, from time to time, she was unexpectedly strong. In terms of defense, I didn’t do much, so I think Senpai was the one who was probably doing something. Just that, in truth, I don’t have an accurate idea of the current state of my defense.” (Makoto)

^Makoto saying Hibiki in their fight was stronger than he had seen from her before even when she took out the monsters of Meiris lake.
As we know she broke through his magic armor.
However when Makoto later tests his defenses against Lime, Lime wasn't able to break it.

“More importantly, Senpai was able go through my defense pretty easily with a weaker sword. Lime, do you have an idea why?” (Makoto)

“I don’t. The current training Hibiki has is with the sword waves she utilizes for long-ranged attack, but…when it comes to its power, I can only think of it as being common. Compared to when I was accompanying her, she didn’t seem to be doing anything different either.” (Lime)

So, Hibiki is clearly stronger in this fight than she ever has been up until this point.

Makoto even has Mio do it and it took Mio more than 70% of her power to break through his armor.

I receive the wave of attacks from Mio that had different degrees of power with my Magic Armor, and after continuing until it was broken, I give my thanks to Mio and finish the test.

“Is it okay already?” (Mio)

“Yeah. I have understood that the sword of Hibiki-senpai is around this level of power after all.” (Makoto)

“…Are you referring to the attack that injured Waka-sama’s hand that time?” (Mio)

“It also has to do with that attack, but in general, Senpai’s attack were strangely strong. And in truth, the last attack Mio did was a pretty serious one, right?” (Makoto)

I ask Mio who I thought did an attack with about the same power.

“I didn’t even use 80%-desu wa. I wasn’t serious at all!” (Mio)

An over 70% of Mio is plenty strong, most likely.

I will say though, given how casual Makoto is in all of this scaling to 5-B is pretty insane lol, but I feel that scaling her at FP with empowerment to at least 70% Mio is fair.

“As I thought, the speed was obviously good, but…there’s something behind the strength of those attacks. I feel like I will have to go a bit stronger when doing a bout with Senpai or I will end up wounded.” (Makoto)

^Makoto was clearly holding back.

“…When Hibiki was struggling in the wasteland, she didn’t have a unique attack power like that. She was a girl with good instincts and a wide field of vision though. If I remember correctly, Shiki said that in the time that he was with Waka-sama in Limia, she was suddenly able to release a strong attack. How about confirming with Shiki when we return?” (Mio)

“Ah…maybe he is talking about the time when his the barrier he was keeping them in was destroyed? I see…” (Makoto)

Could it be that a new power she received from the Goddess awakened?

^Proof that it's a result of her empowerment and not her just naturally being this strong.

So At least 70% Mio level. In which case, since this version just scales above baseline 6-B it would be 4.9 Teratons. Small Country level, or Low 6-B+

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

^Makoto saying Hibiki in their fight was stronger than he had seen from her before even when she took out the monsters of Meiris lake.
As we know she broke through his magic armor.
However when Makoto later tests his defenses against Lime, Lime wasn't able to break it.

So, Hibiki is clearly stronger in this fight than she ever has been up until this point.

Makoto even has Mio do it and it took Mio more than 70% of her power to break through his armor.



I will say though, given how casual Makoto is in all of this scaling to 5-B is pretty insane lol, but I feel that scaling her at FP with empowerment to at least 70% Mio is fair.


^Makoto was clearly holding back.

^Proof that it's a result of her empowerment and not her just naturally being this strong.

So At least 70% Mio level. In which case, since this version just scales above baseline 6-B it would be 4.9 Teratons. Small Country level, or Low 6-B+

Ok , but I don't agree about their Tier that you keep giving them including Makoto, I agree with Makoto being Tier 6A for creating Asura and that's the limit. where did you come with a tier 6 for the others ?

and again their Dura doesn't match their AP or speed even rona and apple group's leader can damage Makoto plus he wasn't serious or else he'll nuke the place.

to be true we never get to see Makoto full potential, they mention in the beginning that he has a problem of using limited mana output in a spell.

other than Makoto and the gods I think the other characters are stuck at Tier 7. (this is just my opinion)

like expectro said if a kitten could scratch a human it doesn't give it the same Tier.

Do you think she was able to hurt Makoto because he believe she can or because she got stronger.

why is it conceptual?

by the way does Tomoe mist remaining for a year or so count as stamina feat, I remember that she did the same the same with the forest ogre village while she was a sleep(she doesn't need to sustain it), it's like considering how long the character's ice cube need to melt an stamina feat.

 

[YungManzi]

Ok , but I don't agree about their Tier that you keep giving them including Makoto, I agree with Makoto being Tier 6A for creating Asura and that's the limit. where did you come with a tier 6 for the others ?

Are you saying you don’t believe in tier 6 at all for non god tiers? At this point we have two tier 6 feats and around 7 tier 6 statements. It’s pretty consistent.

and again their Dura doesn't match their AP or speed even rona and apple group's leader can damage Makoto plus he wasn't serious or else he'll nuke the place.

to be true we never get to see Makoto full potential, they mention in the beginning that he has a problem of using limited mana output in a spell.

other than Makoto and the gods I think the other characters are stuck at Tier 7. (this is just my opinion)

like expectro said if a kitten could scratch a human it doesn't give it the same Tier.

Do you think she was able to hurt Makoto because he believe she can or because she got stronger.

It’s twofold, because of her power, and because Makoto is holding back. IMO

Even conceding the cat scaling via scratches argument, you can’t be literally quadrillions of times weaker than something and injure it, and since there’s no quantifiable way to actually judge these feats it’s usually just back scaled. The injury in question was also a bit more that a scratch.

why is it conceptual?

It’s briefly referred to as conceptual but other than that I plan to make a whole argument regarding that later. So to be continued…

by the way does Tomoe mist remaining for a year or so count as stamina feat, I remember that she did the same the same with the forest ogre village while she was a sleep(she doesn't need to sustain it), it's like considering how long the character's ice cube need to melt an stamina feat.

Yes it does.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Are you saying you don’t believe in tier 6 at all for non god tiers? At this point we have two tier 6 feats and around 7 tier 6 statements. It’s pretty consistent.

yes, statment in this verse are just hyperbole and flowery words.
sorry, but what feats you're talking about ?

 

[YungManzi]

yes, statment in this verse are just hyperbole and flowery words.
sorry, but what feats you're talking about ?

You think every single statement is flowery language and/or hyperbole?

There's literally no point of even indexing the verse if that's the case. All of the abilities could be complete nonsense and you couldn't even properly gage AP values or speed values without heavily relying on the anime. So there goes all feats past like chapter 90 lol.

 

[YungManzi]

sorry, but what feats you're talking about ?

And By the tier 6 stuff I mean: 6-C (Keep in mind, it's hinted that this attack is weaker than Tomoki's nuke which a weaker version of Sofia survived at its epicenter. For that matter, it's also hinted that alternate world demon lord actually no-sold the nuke kek) and 6-B+

Not Necessarily Country Busting/Level Statement, But Definitely a Country Ending Statement that could support busting:​

Chapter 148:

“Counting all those factors in, in the worst case scenario, it can even reach the level where they are able to destroy countries.”
"Kuzunoha Company is a double-edged sword.

A sword of calamity that has the power to cut countries apart.

(This is the worst. I feel like I am participating in a roulette with destruction written in it for eternity) (Sairitz)"
-Talking about the Kuzunoha company (Before she was aware of the extent of Makoto and co's power)

Chapter 150: “… Waka-sama, the winged-kin is quite the strong race. Maybe they can even bring down a country by themselves. Try watching a fight of them against the other races. It is just that their ability to fight against Waka-sama is despairingly low. Also, the Gorgons, if they were sent out to the battlefield, they possess a terrifying ability that can end the battle. At worst, we can arbitrarily dispel the petrification of the ones we want to. No problems there. It is not a petrification that brings instant-death. They are very special ability-users after all” (Shiki)

Chapter 159: “It is certainly true that it is power that could bring down a country.”
-talking about Sofia

“If imprudently dealt, Raidou might not even care about the whole picture, and destroy a country and race just because of a reason like being asked by someone close to him.”

Slightly More Credible Statements:​

“I noticed, the ability to eat the power of the dragons and assimilate it. I can brag about being the strongest among adventurers, but adding to that, I have also obtained the power of 4 superior dragons. I have enough power to destroy even a country” (Sofia)

“Plenty enough. That Io over there as well. He is able to destroy a small country. An army is just a power that weaklings flock to. For you and me, those kind of things just serve as targets. The power of individuals, that itself is national power” (Sofia)

“You go talking about people being crazy, but you know, you are the one that is the craziest. Would you normally go changing a country into a desert? And with only one hit of a magic spell.” (Tomoki)-Alternate Makoto (Canonically weaker than our Makoto)

Then there's, of course, the making crater the size of a country statement.

 

[YungManzi]

There are unironically more country destroying statements than city or town destroying lol. And these are all just from the first 200 chapters.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

And By the tier 6 stuff I mean: 6-C (Keep in mind, it's hinted that this attack is weaker than Tomoki's nuke which a weaker version of Sofia survived at its epicenter. For that matter, it's also hinted that alternate world demon lord actually no-sold the nuke kek) and 6-B+

it's literally written Tier 7 to 6-C by expectro and the for other one I don't know where did Drite get those numbers.
also he used a continent, which is confusing because the countries is this world are in the continent that we don't know it's size yet.
saying something is stronger without mentioning the difference gap doesn't mean a higher Tier especialy without calculation, so still Tier 7.

(I appreciate spending time to find scans)
this is my personnel answer: Hell no, none of those characters can do any of that, just a punch of hyperbole or just exaggerating.
(please give some actual feats)

also we all saw those characters fight seriously like Sofia did you see any country being destroyed.

the only possible country Lv feat is Root strongest elemental attack that need time to charge, was it stated to be able to destroy the demon country (not sure)

wasn't the only difference between Makoto and the alternate version that he achieved creation?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Side note, but if one of you don't get a calc member to evaluate that (and the other crab calc) then the thing will be unusable for a loooong time because the calc request thread isn't exactly the fastest way to get a calc approved.

 

[YungManzi]

it's literally written Tier 7 to 6-C by expectro and the for other one I don't know where did Drite get those numbers.

1) No, the crater is tier 7 the lake itself is tier 6.

2) Drite used Japan as a reference for a country (Since the work in question is japanese) while the high end used Turkey because the average country is about the size of turkey iirc (Which is actually bigger than the accepted value)

also he used a continent, which is confusing because the countries is this world are in the continent that we don't know it's size yet.

He didn't use a continent though..? The actual world map had nothing to do with the calculation.

saying something is stronger without mentioning the difference gap doesn't mean a higher Tier especialy without calculation, so still Tier 7.

Not sure what you mean here. If something is stronger than tier 6 then it's obviously at least tier 6.

also we all saw those characters fight seriously like Sofia did you see any country being destroyed.

Well, that's the difference between AP and DC my friend. Your attacks can have enough power behind them that they can destroy planets, but you yourself never actually destroyed a planet.

Heck, I'm pretty sure that before Super the highest feat in canon dragon ball was High 5-A, but the characters scale many tiers above that even in DBZ despite having nowhere near the feats to back that up.

the only possible country Lv feat is Root strongest elemental attack that need time to charge, was it stated to be able to destroy the demon country (not sure)

It's unspecific whether or not it would destroy the demon territory or literally just make a crater in the demon territory the size of a country.

wasn't the only difference between Makoto and the alternate version that he achieved creation?

Alternate Makoto never met the gods, so he never started the routine bow training.

 

[YungManzi]

Side note, but if one of you don't get a calc member to evaluate that (and the other crab calc) then the thing will be unusable for a loooong time because the calc request thread isn't exactly the fastest way to get a calc approved.

If no one's evaluated it by the time I'm ready for revisions imma bug the calc group members.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

If no one's evaluated it by the time I'm ready for revisions imma bug the calc group members.

I will try to continue bump my calcs in the calc evaluation thread when the time to bump is avaible again, however, considering that currently I have various other calcs that still need evaluation and still bump (1 arifureta calc from even before the tsuki calc plus currently 3 calcs of Iruma and any other possible calc I will make for Iruma while working behind scenes to prepare big revisions) so I genuinely don't know when it could get evaluated. There is no rush as there still are a lot of time until any future revision so is not really a problem.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

1) No, the crater is tier 7 the lake itself is tier 6.

2) Drite used Japan as a reference for a country (Since the work in question is japanese) while the high end used Turkey because the average country is about the size of turkey iirc (Which is actually bigger than the accepted value)

1)agree
2) I meant the whole goddess world(continent) is japan and not the countries within it. is like saying that the countries(limia...) are the size of japan or close to that based on nothing. we are still stuck because we got no size of country or continent. (unusable)

Not sure what you mean here. If something is stronger than tier 6 then it's obviously at least tier 6.

yes, just don't add any plus without calculation.

Well, that's the difference between AP and DC my friend. Your attacks can have enough power behind them that they can destroy planets, but you yourself never actually destroyed a planet.

the problem here Sofia doesn't have any special attack, everything is just physical power, so her AP is from herself not special attack or swords.
plus there is a huge mismatch between their AP and Dura

Heck, I'm pretty sure that before Super the highest feat in canon dragon ball was High 5-A, but the characters scale many tiers above that even in DBZ despite having nowhere near the feats to back that up.

that's what they call a mess (DB,OP,Naruto...), I advise not making the same mess.

Alternate Makoto never met the gods, so he never started the routine bow training

NO, he has been doing it since he was a child on earth the reason he gain his talent in archery, was his teacher who taught him that or himself.

 

[YungManzi]

NO, he has been doing it since he was a child on earth the reason he gain his talent in archery, was his teacher who taught him that or himself.

You're misunderstanding me a bit. He semi-regularly did it every once in a while already; I'm talking about him doing it literally every single day sometimes several times a day.

That only ever happened because of his interactions with the goddess (Her giving him that omnilingual skill) and him meeting the gods (Them telling him to keep doing his bow training more frequently)

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

You're misunderstanding me a bit. He semi-regularly did it every once in a while already; I'm talking about him doing it literally every single day sometimes several times a day.

That only ever happened because of his interactions with the goddess (Her giving him that omnilingual skill) and him meeting the gods (Them telling him to keep doing his bow training more frequently)

he has been doing it, don't you remember when Tomoe and Mio couldn't sense him and thought he was dead, that's why he stopped but this Makoto is different because he didn't meet any of them and was with Tomoki and Hibiki in the war, meaning he practice a lot more in order to help them.
can we stop using him, we only get a single chapter without his POV and not much info about him, this stuff are still just assumptions.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

can you check on Hibiki training Tomoe chapter and see if her empowerment work on her or only on simp.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Good news, both calcs were accepted.

 

[YungManzi]

he has been doing it, don't you remember when Tomoe and Mio couldn't sense him and thought he was dead, that's why he stopped but this Makoto is different because he didn't meet any of them.

You may be correct. He said it was daily routine in the chapter where they found him doing it.
But it’s kind of a plot hole if we consider it as that because it means he did it every single day for months without Mio or Tomoe noticing it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

You may be correct. He said it was daily routine in the chapter where they found him doing it.
But it’s kind of a plot hole if we consider it as that because it means he did it every single day for months without Mio or Tomoe noticing it.

not really everyday Its like his meditation

also that's how his teleportation arrow work (check his fight with Alte)
take a stance>close eyes>find the target>shoot=bullseye
the arrow teleport directly to the target

which explain that it won't work on the goddess inside her world as he wasn't able to locate her exact location.

 

[YungManzi]

not really everyday Its like his meditation

He called it his daily training. Also, I thought you were arguing that he did it every day beforehand and I was arguing against that how the hell did we switch positions?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

He called it his daily training. Also, I thought you were arguing that he did it every day beforehand and I was arguing against that how the hell did we switch positions?

just a joke, but Let's agree t disagree and be done with it

 

[Pepsiman25th]

I got a question about sofia
what are the 4 dragons powers she has? The way its on the profile is just confusing

 

[YungManzi]

I got a question about sofia
what are the 4 dragons powers she has? The way its on the profile is just confusing

Darkness dragon (Forgot its name), Lancer, Waterfall, and the flame dragon.

 

[YungManzi]

I skipped ahead and read a lil bit into the more recent chapters, and it seems to confirm that Tomoki and Hibiki are at least Shiki level now with the possibility of reaching Tomoe and Mio level with certain abilities.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I skipped ahead and read a lil bit into the more recent chapters, and it seems to confirm that Tomoki and Hibiki are at least Shiki level now with the possibility of reaching Tomoe and Mio level with certain abilities.

yeah I know that but it seems to me it's about their their mana pool or LV nothing about AP, dura or speed

 

[YungManzi]

yeah I know that but it seems to me it's about their their mana pool or LV nothing about AP, dura or speed

Nah. Shiki literally states he has a 50% chance of beating Hibiki in a fight. And that's just based on her most recent equipment powerup, not even taking conceptual empowerment into account.

The demon lord even says they can both now be considered unparalleled heroes in their own right iirc.

 

[YungManzi]

Given what I read it's even possible/probable Tomoki has access to the lightning element, which is crazy to think about.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Nah. Shiki literally states he has a 50% chance of beating Hibiki in a fight. And that's just based on her most recent equipment powerup, not even taking conceptual empowerment into account.

The demon lord even says they can both now be considered unparalleled heroes in their own right iirc.

yeah the problem with that is sometimes a character beat another just because they are a bad match
like Makoto vs calamity spider, even Tomoe defeated her before, and Tomoe herself was deafeated by Makoto using his martial art because her body is weak and she always rely on illusion at that time.
I don't think it's valid until the fight happen.

what is conceptual about her empowerment?

 

[YungManzi]

yeah the problem with that is sometimes a character beat another just because they are a bad match
like Makoto vs calamity spider, even Tomoe defeated her before, and Tomoe herself was deafeated by Makoto using his martial art because her body is weak and she always rely on illusion at that time.]
I don't think it's valid until the fight happen.

Hmm... I could buy this argument if it wasn't for the fact that he said before her powerup he would defeat her 99 times out of 100.

what is conceptual about her empowerment?

Idk, that's what it's referred to as though.

I've been saving the whether or not it's really conceptual argument until I finish reading everything. But to be fair, conception in-context refers to ideas created by people, and I can find at least one profile that considers ideas originated by humans as type 3 concepts.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Hmm... I could buy this argument if it wasn't for the fact that he said before her powerup he would defeat her 99 times out of 100.

I've been saving the whether or not it's really conceptual argument until I finish reading everything. But to be fair, conception in-context refers to ideas created by people, and I can find at least one profile that considers ideas originated by humans as type 3 concepts.

just me but I don't think that 1 out of 100 is enough, right?

nothing about it's conceptual
just a normal empowerment that increase her physical stats(ap,dura,speed) and magic power from people simping over her.
(she was probably able to destroy Makoto's armor because of him)

a conceptual type will empower the character conceptual existence, and there is nothing in the whole verse about any feat of CM, just unnecessary words
like characters calling Makoto technique an attack with the concept of not messing when all he does is teleport the arrows to the target.

Idk, that's what it's referred to as though.

I don't remember it like that, scans?