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Tropes in fiction you love and hate
- Thread starter Monarch_Laciel
- Start date
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I watched it before being exposed to the fanbase, so I might be able to give some input.Kepekley23 said:
Its characters are decently charming and it has some funny moments and clever in-jokes, but it's very confusing chronologically (more so than even Baccano), not helped by the amount of running gags
Also a very weird series, just so you're forewarned.
And never mention shipping unless you want people to explode.
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Also it's probably an obvious choice given the name, but I despise Jerk Sues.
It's legitimately frustrating to see a story where the main character is apathetic at best and a complete asshole at worst and yet have everyone like them.
It's like, get a reality check.
It's legitimately frustrating to see a story where the main character is apathetic at best and a complete asshole at worst and yet have everyone like them.
It's like, get a reality check.
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Love:
The normally stoic hero gets serious and stomps out the enemy at full power (e.g. All Might going all out of Nomu).
Hate:
The "God is evil" trope that appears so unbearably much. From Asian culture making the creator evil (YHVH, Chakravartin, etc) to western (The Authority), I can't stand this trope.
The normally stoic hero gets serious and stomps out the enemy at full power (e.g. All Might going all out of Nomu).
Hate:
The "God is evil" trope that appears so unbearably much. From Asian culture making the creator evil (YHVH, Chakravartin, etc) to western (The Authority), I can't stand this trope.
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The Authority is more of a pervert than an evil guy.
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Jerk with a Heart of Gold characters are Jerk Sues done right which is what makes them awsome. It's really easy to make a Jerk with Heart of Gold unlikeable without being a really good writer and I respect those who do it well.
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Yes, this applies to alot of non-harem shows as well, such as when a character gets the girl or a bunch of friends despite being far too stupid in the first place.Dragonmasterxyz said:
So now I ask, why do you ask?
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I also wouldn't really call Hetalia a Yaoi, it just has a shit-ton of yaoi undertones for the sake of comedy that most of its fans take waaaay too seriously.
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People taking jokes way too seriously when it comes to shipping? What else is new
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@Jordan
I see your point and I agree the show isn't totally yaoi, but it's pretty damn close in most regards. Especially with the Chibitalia x HRE arc and most stuff involving France and England.
I see your point and I agree the show isn't totally yaoi, but it's pretty damn close in most regards. Especially with the Chibitalia x HRE arc and most stuff involving France and England.
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Love:
When a villain that has been plaguing the heroes throughout the whole of a series finally gets his just deserts in an extremely satisfying way. (i.e., Grunkle Stan finishing Bill Cipher with a single punch as his mind was getting erased, Eragon finally taking down Galbatorix by having him ultimately commit suicide.)
Hate:
The whole "that one good guy we know is actually the bad guy" trope. Seriously, this is the trope has been done so terribly in so many places, and has ruined several movies and books for me. The only cases of this happening which I really liked it was in the Kirby games with characters like Marx, where these small, unimposing supporting characters take advantage of Kirby in order to get super powerful and attempt to take over. A lot of them were really awesome battles as well.
When a villain that has been plaguing the heroes throughout the whole of a series finally gets his just deserts in an extremely satisfying way. (i.e., Grunkle Stan finishing Bill Cipher with a single punch as his mind was getting erased, Eragon finally taking down Galbatorix by having him ultimately commit suicide.)
Hate:
The whole "that one good guy we know is actually the bad guy" trope. Seriously, this is the trope has been done so terribly in so many places, and has ruined several movies and books for me. The only cases of this happening which I really liked it was in the Kirby games with characters like Marx, where these small, unimposing supporting characters take advantage of Kirby in order to get super powerful and attempt to take over. A lot of them were really awesome battles as well.
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"Yes, this applies to alot of non-harem shows as well, such as when a character gets the girl or a bunch of friends despite being far too srupid in the first place."
So just because one is "stupid" they can't have the ability to make a lot of friends or get a girl. While a character may be "dumb" or "slow", there tends to be more to them that makes the appealing and attractive to others.
So just because one is "stupid" they can't have the ability to make a lot of friends or get a girl. While a character may be "dumb" or "slow", there tends to be more to them that makes the appealing and attractive to others.
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"There tends to be more to them that makes the appealing and attractive to others"
And with that one line you represent my other issue
There are hardly ever reasons.
Take Bell Cranel, why does Hestia constantly swarm this dude all the time? Well, no reason apparently.
Why does Amagiri Ayato get surrounded by other woman? Well...He's really powerful despite being ridiculously apathetic.
You're obviously correct in the way that them being "stupid" doesn't mean someone can't like them, but often times there tends to not be more as to why.
And with that one line you represent my other issue
There are hardly ever reasons.
Take Bell Cranel, why does Hestia constantly swarm this dude all the time? Well, no reason apparently.
Why does Amagiri Ayato get surrounded by other woman? Well...He's really powerful despite being ridiculously apathetic.
You're obviously correct in the way that them being "stupid" doesn't mean someone can't like them, but often times there tends to not be more as to why.
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Then your issue is not with the trope itself, but with the lack of reasoning for the trope to be a thing for the character themselves.
Why does this guy like this rude and condescending girl?
Why does this girl like despite him being a complete and utter douche?
Although many times, people go by appearances. They consider said person attractive and such. For some people that's more than enough.
Why does this guy like this rude and condescending girl?
Why does this girl like despite him being a complete and utter douche?
Although many times, people go by appearances. They consider said person attractive and such. For some people that's more than enough.
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Being aesthetically pleasing only goes so far, my bro. (I should know)
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Yes and no. For YOU and those of us with common sense yes. But WE are not every person. There are literally people in reality who go on looks alone. This is a thing in anime, especially when it concerns teenagers and it's a realistic thing. To assume everyone looks beyond appearances is beyond naive.The real cal howard said:
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No, that's not what I meant (in a number of ways). Clearly, looks alone gets you well...laid. However, looks alone don't get girls to love you the way they do in anime.
I'll explain more after I rewatch a video on a ancient Greek study on romance. But from what I remember, that love in anime is eros, when in reality, it's mania.
I'll explain more after I rewatch a video on a ancient Greek study on romance. But from what I remember, that love in anime is eros, when in reality, it's mania.
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Once again, do you know every person in the world. It's quite real that it could. Looks and appearance can be enough for anyone. No study alive will change that fact. Is this form of love a good thing? No. But does that make it any less real? No.The real cal howard said:
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Hate:
People shoehorning in "diverse" characters, who turn out to be horrible people. Because apparently nowadays all that matters is WHAT they are, not WHO they are.
People shoehorning in "diverse" characters, who turn out to be horrible people. Because apparently nowadays all that matters is WHAT they are, not WHO they are.
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Bre8k said:
- Joker judging Red Skull for being a Nazi
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Like:
Badass Normal
No superpowers? Get a ton of tech to or train yourself super hard so you are at least stronger than the average person. I like it when it is played straight (Either because the person is that strong or skilled that they can keep up) or reconstructed (When the character exploits the weaknesses of the opponent).
Hate:
Mood Whiplash (When done badly)
I mean, when the series is a parody or a satire, I can forgive it, but when the series is supossed to be fully serious and it is done wrong (Like from a downright serious moment we have a funny one) then it doesn't work for me, but I like it when the moment is happy and then becomes serious or creepy (Like, let's say Joe and Mac are playing in a park, everything is fun... then Mac gets kidnapped)
Badass Normal
No superpowers? Get a ton of tech to or train yourself super hard so you are at least stronger than the average person. I like it when it is played straight (Either because the person is that strong or skilled that they can keep up) or reconstructed (When the character exploits the weaknesses of the opponent).
Hate:
Mood Whiplash (When done badly)
I mean, when the series is a parody or a satire, I can forgive it, but when the series is supossed to be fully serious and it is done wrong (Like from a downright serious moment we have a funny one) then it doesn't work for me, but I like it when the moment is happy and then becomes serious or creepy (Like, let's say Joe and Mac are playing in a park, everything is fun... then Mac gets kidnapped)
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You must not have watched the same SnO I didThe real cal howard said:
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No it's about the trope.Dragonmasterxyz said:
I'm specifically referring to the dense main character not noticing the people around him, and this leads to my point where the person who's too dense to notice it is somehow able to have them want to be with him in the first place, which is usually never.
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That is not the trope you mention. You mentioned that you just flat out dislike the dense main character who doesn't realize a girl likes him and yet gets all the girls and has a lot of friends.
You then say that you hate that it is never explained. Meaning that you hate the the fact that the trope is not given a good reason to be there.
You DO NOT have to be outright told why someone likes someone else to see why. These types of characters while dense and idiotic in character have a trait that draws people to them. Be it their looks, their personality traits, build, bravery, etc, etc.
Sorry, this is a trope I like and I find it hard to really understand why this is a hated trope. Especially when I see good natured characters be disliked and hated for in my honest opinion, for some of the most idiotic reasons. Suddenly the nature of the character is thrown out of the window and now people want said person dead over trivial crap.
"He's dense, but gets all the girls for no reason"
No there is a reason, they just don't outright tell you. Expanding on it would make it easier, however the point is that you need to understand their personalities and such.
"He's so bland"
Define bland. Is he the average kid next door? Nothing remarkable? No outward showing traits? Then look at what the girls are attached to mostly and then find out for yourself.
There is a big difference between "this character annoys me" and "I utterly despise this character and they should die".
You then say that you hate that it is never explained. Meaning that you hate the the fact that the trope is not given a good reason to be there.
You DO NOT have to be outright told why someone likes someone else to see why. These types of characters while dense and idiotic in character have a trait that draws people to them. Be it their looks, their personality traits, build, bravery, etc, etc.
Sorry, this is a trope I like and I find it hard to really understand why this is a hated trope. Especially when I see good natured characters be disliked and hated for in my honest opinion, for some of the most idiotic reasons. Suddenly the nature of the character is thrown out of the window and now people want said person dead over trivial crap.
"He's dense, but gets all the girls for no reason"
No there is a reason, they just don't outright tell you. Expanding on it would make it easier, however the point is that you need to understand their personalities and such.
"He's so bland"
Define bland. Is he the average kid next door? Nothing remarkable? No outward showing traits? Then look at what the girls are attached to mostly and then find out for yourself.
There is a big difference between "this character annoys me" and "I utterly despise this character and they should die".
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There's a reason for why the characters I mentioned above have women swarming them? Because I'm genuinely curious
And if you do like this trope, tell me characters that do it, because not every single person has seen the same anime, read the same manga etc. And literally every time I do see this trope I can't understand the reason if my life depended on it.
And if you do like this trope, tell me characters that do it, because not every single person has seen the same anime, read the same manga etc. And literally every time I do see this trope I can't understand the reason if my life depended on it.
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Let's look at the ones you've mentioned.
Bell Cranel: So I am assuming his good nature and shy personality are what are possible triggers? Does his actions create a possibility? Is it his appearance. What does she do when around him? What does she say? Have you read into all that?
Ayato: Same as Bell. Does his looks and polite attitude not turn people to him? Him being helpful doesn't either? Those are also reasons to why.
The reason I like this trope is not because I've seen it. I like the trope just because of how light hearted it is and how easy it is to experiment (As a writer, that's what I love from a series).
Bell Cranel: So I am assuming his good nature and shy personality are what are possible triggers? Does his actions create a possibility? Is it his appearance. What does she do when around him? What does she say? Have you read into all that?
Ayato: Same as Bell. Does his looks and polite attitude not turn people to him? Him being helpful doesn't either? Those are also reasons to why.
The reason I like this trope is not because I've seen it. I like the trope just because of how light hearted it is and how easy it is to experiment (As a writer, that's what I love from a series).
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Good Natured....Kinda? I mean he comes across as a pervert to most of the women around him and he's even seen as weak compared to the rest of the others, especially when one of the other guy characters is basically him but far more outgoing and caring because as much as Bell may be "Nice" he has no real understanding or respect towards females around him.
He is far from polite, in fact he's exactly the type of person Ever was just complaining about above, Apathetic as sin to pretty much everyone around him. And he even purposely pisses off the person that is in love with him.
A good reason to like it, to bad I'm not really lucky enough to see that.
He is far from polite, in fact he's exactly the type of person Ever was just complaining about above, Apathetic as sin to pretty much everyone around him. And he even purposely pisses off the person that is in love with him.
A good reason to like it, to bad I'm not really lucky enough to see that.
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I would say more seeing as this truly bothers me, but I will leave at that before I get heated as this is something I am passionate about.
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>Tropes in fiction you like
>God is Evil
>It has an actual reason behind their own actions
>Actually has a personality beyond being a tyrant who wants to erradicate everything
>Is not a flat character whose personality boils down to wanting to be worshipped and nothing more
>Tropes in fiction you hate
"Rawr, i am gawd, and I am evul for no reason whatsoever. Worship meh. >:c"
Seriously, if someone wants to make a Gnostic kind of fiction where a creator god is the villain, at the very least give it a reason to be like that. Because otherwise this notion makes borderline no sense
>God is Evil
>It has an actual reason behind their own actions
>Actually has a personality beyond being a tyrant who wants to erradicate everything
>Is not a flat character whose personality boils down to wanting to be worshipped and nothing more
>Tropes in fiction you hate
"Rawr, i am gawd, and I am evul for no reason whatsoever. Worship meh. >:c"
Seriously, if someone wants to make a Gnostic kind of fiction where a creator god is the villain, at the very least give it a reason to be like that. Because otherwise this notion makes borderline no sense
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Please don't turn this into a flame war. You guys simply just have a different opinion on the matter.
Let's just agree to disagree.
Let's just agree to disagree.
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Let's end this off with another Trope.
The Mr. Badass character: Basically a person who loves having fun or joking around in the middle of a fight.
This is a really hit or miss thing for me, it can be rather disappointing when a character is written in the way that they are just the guy/girl who cracks jokes and is their main selling point without any development.
On the other hand a character who loves to do this but still show signs of his personality showing it's cracks and seeing him grow also results in a loveable character the audience can get the behind, especially if said character really shows that they have their "chinks in their armor" at some point during the story yet still grow and keep this same loveable personality we loved when we first met them.
Dante is a damn good example of this especially in 3.
SPOILERS. This guy begins as a fun loving pizza loving Jokester who loved nothing more then blowing demons up in the most stylish ways possible, and ran away from his past and intended on leaving everything behind and never going bacl, only he is forced to see what he really is and what he has to do.
He's forced to defeat his own brother in this same game, the person he mourned over for years. And this ultimately drives him to be the responsible yet honorable jokester we see in later games while still being the badass we knew at the beginning of DMC3.
The Mr. Badass character: Basically a person who loves having fun or joking around in the middle of a fight.
This is a really hit or miss thing for me, it can be rather disappointing when a character is written in the way that they are just the guy/girl who cracks jokes and is their main selling point without any development.
On the other hand a character who loves to do this but still show signs of his personality showing it's cracks and seeing him grow also results in a loveable character the audience can get the behind, especially if said character really shows that they have their "chinks in their armor" at some point during the story yet still grow and keep this same loveable personality we loved when we first met them.
Dante is a damn good example of this especially in 3.
SPOILERS. This guy begins as a fun loving pizza loving Jokester who loved nothing more then blowing demons up in the most stylish ways possible, and ran away from his past and intended on leaving everything behind and never going bacl, only he is forced to see what he really is and what he has to do.
He's forced to defeat his own brother in this same game, the person he mourned over for years. And this ultimately drives him to be the responsible yet honorable jokester we see in later games while still being the badass we knew at the beginning of DMC3.
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And then there's the parody like Travis Touchdow who tries to act cool but flops in a humorous manner.
Then there's the flop that's just a flop.
Then there's the flop that's just a flop.
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Travis Touchdown is still pretty cool, though.
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Mad Scientists
This trope is such a horribly cliche and overdone trope that's constantly used as an excuse for everything. Also for the same reasons as I dislike sci-fi: It's such a silly and dumbed down version of "science" that's used to explain anything that the writers are too lazy to do so in another manner. Science ain't magic yo.
And even then, it's not impossible to make morally ambiguous scientists that don't fall into this trope. I love those kinds of characters. But it seems like most fictions just prefer to have an old guy create doomsday devices while laughing evily rather than to do interesting characters.
This trope is such a horribly cliche and overdone trope that's constantly used as an excuse for everything. Also for the same reasons as I dislike sci-fi: It's such a silly and dumbed down version of "science" that's used to explain anything that the writers are too lazy to do so in another manner. Science ain't magic yo.
And even then, it's not impossible to make morally ambiguous scientists that don't fall into this trope. I love those kinds of characters. But it seems like most fictions just prefer to have an old guy create doomsday devices while laughing evily rather than to do interesting characters.
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I like the trope of when you think about the antagonist wasn't really wrong in his ideals he did terrible things that would only benefit the world
Marcus from the highlander anime film sums this up I give you context
Marcus who is an immortal was originally a roman general who saw Rome as the perfect civilisation and he wanted the rest of the world be like Rome. As in his eyes if he didn't do something it would led to the rest of the world it would eventually destroy itself. And he wouldn't let anything stop him like when are protagonist Colin was leading a rebellion against the Rome. And he did give Colin's wife the opportunity to surrender but she stabbed him didn't kill him because of his immortality so Marcus kills her and the rebels and Colin as well but he would find out like him he was also immortal.
When Rome was destroyed by an attack led by Colin marcus wanted to build a civilisation which would be perfect which would stop the world from destroying itself while Colin wanted revenge against marcus for killing his wife so for the next two thousand years Marcus and Colin would clash thought out history and marcus had plenty of chances to kill Colin but he couldn't because they were on holy ground or Colin being lucky Marcus even gave him advice to find a new reason to live and told Colin he is just wasting his immortality on try to kill him instead of doing something that would matter.
And in 2187 where the film starts we see that marcus was right that the world ended destroying itself with nuclear war and Colin who is still trying to kill him still hasn't really done anything with his life. So when Colin does take down Marcus he realised marcus did have a point that he has wasted his life on vengeance instead of doing something with meaning and he follows Marcus's advice to go and find a new reason to live
But marcus is still a mass murdering maniac who did some pretty messed up things in order to stop the world from causing chaos which in the end he was right the world did go to shit
Marcus from the highlander anime film sums this up I give you context
Marcus who is an immortal was originally a roman general who saw Rome as the perfect civilisation and he wanted the rest of the world be like Rome. As in his eyes if he didn't do something it would led to the rest of the world it would eventually destroy itself. And he wouldn't let anything stop him like when are protagonist Colin was leading a rebellion against the Rome. And he did give Colin's wife the opportunity to surrender but she stabbed him didn't kill him because of his immortality so Marcus kills her and the rebels and Colin as well but he would find out like him he was also immortal.
When Rome was destroyed by an attack led by Colin marcus wanted to build a civilisation which would be perfect which would stop the world from destroying itself while Colin wanted revenge against marcus for killing his wife so for the next two thousand years Marcus and Colin would clash thought out history and marcus had plenty of chances to kill Colin but he couldn't because they were on holy ground or Colin being lucky Marcus even gave him advice to find a new reason to live and told Colin he is just wasting his immortality on try to kill him instead of doing something that would matter.
And in 2187 where the film starts we see that marcus was right that the world ended destroying itself with nuclear war and Colin who is still trying to kill him still hasn't really done anything with his life. So when Colin does take down Marcus he realised marcus did have a point that he has wasted his life on vengeance instead of doing something with meaning and he follows Marcus's advice to go and find a new reason to live
But marcus is still a mass murdering maniac who did some pretty messed up things in order to stop the world from causing chaos which in the end he was right the world did go to shit
