Tower of God General Discussion Thread Part 5

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

I mean, it's not like we have a lot of people to calculate the feats in ToG in the first place

 

[ElajRuengies]

Fair
It's been a week since the Hoaqin calc was accepted, so I'll add the calc and put in the placeholders for the Bamboo Calc

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Fair
It's been a week since the Hoaqin calc was accepted, so I'll add the calc and put in the placeholders for the Bamboo Calc

Ok, fair enough

Also, the Hell Train calc (2.38 Gigatons) is High 7-A, not the High 7-A+ (The baseline of this is 2.65 Gigatons). What I'm proposing is just to demote characters like TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan from High 7-A+ to just High 7-A, since they scale to total value of the Hell Train calc, which is High 7-A. The characters that scale to Dorian Frog must continue as they are (At least High 7-A+, likely Low 6-B+), since he with little effort accomplished the feat of stopping the Hell Train, indicating that he is far superior to the combined might of three normal Rankers, which is 2.38 Gigatons

 

[ElajRuengies]

Ok, fair enough

Also, the Hell Train calc (2.38 Gigatons) is High 7-A, not the High 7-A+ (The baseline of this is 2.65 Gigatons). What I'm proposing is just to demote characters like TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan from High 7-A+ to just High 7-A, since they scale to total value of the Hell Train calc, which is High 7-A. The characters that scale to Dorian Frog must continue as they are (At least High 7-A+, likely Low 6-B+), since he with little effort accomplished the feat of stopping the Hell Train, indicating that he is far superior to the combined might of three normal Rankers, which is 2.38 Gigatons

Oh crud the half way mark is ((1 + 4.3 Gigatons) / 2), not (4.3 Gigatons / 2)...

Welp, now's a good time as any to spark up this debate again
If I'm gonna be honest, I thought that Black Mode Baam (and by extension, FTI TSM Baam) should have been at least 4/3rds the Hell Train calc, as his attack-
1. Broke through Charlie and the V.A.D.'s attacks together which were them getting serious; (from S2 CH332)

VAD: They leave us no choice!! Charlie!! Kill them all if you have to!!

2. Would have killed both of them, meaning it should have been at least equal to those moves together after plowing through said moves, if not higher, as according to the blogpost for S2 CH332;

In Bam’s fight scene,
we can see him using the power of Black March like his own as well.
Rankers have to admit that this attack would kill them if they were to be even grazed by it, so…
Of course, it’s difficult to say that Bam is effectively using the powers he owns or borrowed.
He might get DMCA’d (Note: Copyright strike-d) by the original owners of his powers at this rate –;

Plowing through two serious moves by two Rankers + at least equal to said moves by those Rankers afterwards = 4/3rds Ranker AP

Last Station FTI + TSM is significantly stronger than that, so 5/3rds, and Last Station's Stardust is above that, so 6/3rds. In summary

• HF TSM Bam = LS TSM Bam w/ Black March = 1/3rd Hell Train Calc = 7-A+ (795.5 Megatons)
• (Jordan and Culden still scale to 2/3rds the Calc, which is High 7-A)
• LS BMM Bam =/< HF TSM Bam + FTI = Data Jahad = Data Eduan = 4/3rds Hell Train Calc = High 7-A+ (3.2 Gigatons)
• HF Stardust = Leviathan = Khun Eduan's Strongest Moves = LS TSM Bam + FTI = 5/3rds Calc = At least High 7-A+ (4 Gigatons)
• LS Stardust = 6/3rds Calc = 6-C (4.8 Gigatons)

While am I aware that I could be wanking BMM Bam in order to get a 6-C, I honestly don't think that an attack that could kill a Ranker with a scratch being 4/3rds a Ranker's AP is highballing. I am open to criticism however!

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Look, as much as I also want 6-C too, we cannot give multipliers based on the degrees of superiority of a certain character over another. For example, (If you read One Punch Man, you'll understand, if you haven't read it, I think it's a good example anyway), Darkshine can nearly one-shot Half-Monster Garou while holding back, who can survive attacks from Rover, but since we don't have any multipliers confirmed, we just put Darkshine above Rover for a non-quantifiable amount, although both are Low 7-B and 7-A

BMM Baam overpowered Charlie and VAD combined attacks, but we just put him above them together, but we have no proof that he is four times stronger than them individually.

So just I think scaling TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan to the total value of the Hell Train calc is good enough

While the only characters I see being High 7-A+ are Dorian Frog and characters comparable to him, since he stopped the Hell Train with ease

 

[Yoyco]

Was looking through some profiles. Noticed that Yuri doesn't have any links or explanation for what her equipment does? Like green April and such

 

[ElajRuengies]

Look, as much as I also want 6-C too, we cannot give multipliers based on the degrees of superiority of a certain character over another. For example, (If you read One Punch Man, you'll understand, if you haven't read it, I think it's a good example anyway), Darkshine can nearly one-shot Half-Monster Garou while holding back, who can survive attacks from Rover, but since we don't have any multipliers confirmed, we just put Darkshine above Rover for a non-quantifiable amount, although both are Low 7-B and 7-A

While this does address the 5/3rds and 6/3rds scaling (also I do read OPM off of online sites bc piracy is power for the people), this does not fully hold for not scaling BMM Bam to 4/3rds the Hell Train Calc for the reasons below.

BMM Baam overpowered Charlie and VAD combined attacks, but we just put him above them together, but we have no proof that he is four times stronger than them individually.

Ignoring how BMM's attack would have killed either of them with just a graze, as that falls under [multipliers based on superiority] and therefore cannot be used, there is a line of logic for him being 4 times stronger than them individually.
Starting Assumptions:

1. The two attacks from the VAD and Charlie were Ranker level.
2. Countering a Ranker level attack requires a Ranker level attack.
3. Harming a Ranker requires a Ranker level attack.

Scenario:

1. VAD and Charlie send their two attacks.
2. Baam attacks back.
3. The two attacks from the VAD and Charlie are countered by Baam's attack.
4. Baam's attack is not stopped.
5. Baam's attack is dodged, but could have harmed both the VAD and Charlie

Therefore:

• Baam's attack countered two Ranker level attacks, and could have still harmed two Rankers afterwards.

In order to replicate this scenario with individual Ranker level attacks, it would require this set up.

• One Ranker attack to counter the VAD's attack
• One Ranker attack to counter Charlie's attack
• One Ranker attack to harm the VAD
• One Ranker attack to harm Charlie

This requires four individual Ranker level attacks, while BBM Bam does this in one attack. Therefore, it is as strong as four Ranker level attacks.

So just I think scaling TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan to the total value of the Hell Train calc is good enough

Random aside, but doesn't that fall under multipliers based on degrees of superiority? Since Transcendental attacks are stronger than normal attacks? Why was okay then when it was being decided, but not now?

While the only characters I see being High 7-A+ are Dorian Frog and characters comparable to him, since he stopped the Hell Train with ease

It serves more as an absolute bare minimum for me since he's got to be somewhere in the Teratons in order to fight Post Clone White

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

It just means that the BMM Baam's attack was strong enough to overpower two Ranker level attacks combined and at the same it was going to proceed to kill Charlie and VAD if it managed to hit them (This is a similar case to the King Kong Gun against Doflamingo, it was strong enough to overwhelm his strongest attack and proceeded to one-shot him), again, nothing that indicates that this is 3x or 4x stronger than an individual Ranker, it just shows us that Baam is stronger than two Rankers combined by an non-quantifiable extent

Well, you're right in that part, before I thought this would be fine, since before I discovered that calc isn't High 7-A+, we were scalingg them to the total value of the Hell Train calc, but now that you highlighted this, so I think we should just downgrade them to just "higher" (for TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan of course)

Yes, this serves only as a minimum value as you said, while their minimum in AP is High 7-A+ and their maximum is Low 6-B+

 

[ElajRuengies]

It just means that the BMM Baam's attack was strong enough to overpower two Ranker level attacks combined and at the same it was going to proceed to kill Charlie and VAD if it managed to hit them (This is a similar case to the King Kong Gun against Doflamingo, it was strong enough to overwhelm his strongest attack and proceeded to one-shot him), again, nothing that indicates that this is 3x or 4x stronger than an individual Ranker, it just shows us that Baam is stronger than two Rankers combined by an non-quantifiable extent

Except that the extent of which Baam is stronger than two Rankers is quantifiable. You just said it-
[strong enough to overpower two Ranker level attacks combined and at the same it was going to proceed to kill Charlie and VAD if it managed to hit them]

The quantity therefore is [Overpowers two Ranker attacks] + [Can kill two Rankers].

And while you can argue that- unlike an individual Ranker's AP, there isn't a specific AP calc for [killing] a Ranker, therefore it's non-quantifiable, I counter by saying that killing a Ranker requires at least the AP of a Ranker, which has a specific AP, therefore it's quantifiable. And that isn't giving a multiplier based on arbitrary superiority, that's just powerscaling.

Well, you're right in that part, before I thought this would be fine, since before I discovered that calc isn't High 7-A+, we were scalingg them to the total value of the Hell Train calc, but now that you highlighted this, so I think we should just downgrade them to just "higher" (for TSM Baam with FTI (Last Station Arc), Baam's Stardust (Post-Revolution), Data Eduan's strongest techinques and Data Zahard's Leviathan of course)

Alright sure, just make sure to also get rid of Town Level's being 1/2 as strong as Town Level+'s (I have like 2 different Town level calcs for that anyway), and Essence of Bravery Kallavan being twice as strong as his Base Form, since unlike other scales which use Percentages (Large Country Level), Redans (Likely Large Town level, Large Town level+, Small City level- Likely City level), or # of people involved (High 7-C+ likely higher, Hell Train divisions, Country level+ [Khel Hellam takes on Base Evankhell and Base Yama]), those use degrees of superiority for multipliers. (There's nothing that suggests that Ran w/ Redan should be as strong as Endorsi, especially since Base Ran + Novick struggled against Cassano [While he was hit by the Sword of Light, he only faked being killed, got up around a minute afterwards, and then one-shot Horyang. And he was prepared to fight them again shortly afterwards and had no visible damage], who was cut by Hatz, who couldn't even scratch Baragav despite hitting him dead on, unlike Endorsi who wounded his leg. Additionally, both Anaak and Ran were surprised at seeing Mad Dog's attack) (Weakened EoB Kallavan takes on Base Evankhell [No elephant is shown], Yuri, and Karaka while weakened, so he's at [29.3 + 5.97 + 5.97 =] At least 41.24 Teratons. Jinsung's Dragon Tiger Gate scales.)

Yes, this serves only as a minimum value as you said, while their minimum in AP is High 7-A+ and their maximum is Low 6-B+

Cool

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

? Again, it doesn't show that BMM Baam is 4x stronger, it just show he is superior to the combined might of two Rankers, his attack was strong enough to overpower two Rankers and had enough strength to kill them if it landed, if we were to follow this logic , King Kong Gun should be 2x stronger than normal Gear 4th attacks or Base Natsu 4x stronger than Sting and Rogue individually. And yes, a difference of 2x in AP is enough to BMM Baam one-shot two Rankers. See this page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/One-Shot

OK, I'm going to do that now. Fair enough about Koon Ran with Redan, but I can't get rid of Town level due to the fact that we don't have another accepted scale to scale characters comparable to Ran without Redan so we can replace it. Also, a full power Essence of Bravery Form Kallavan scales to Evankhell's Partial Release of Ancient Power (EoBF Kallavan was considered one of the High Rankers from Zahard's Army who are able to contend with Evankhell's Partial Release, as Evanhell herself said), who clashed with the Partial Release of Khel Hellam, who overpowered an combined from Base Yama and Evankhell (without Partial Release). And as I recall, Jinsung's Dragon Tiger Gate is dura negation hax

Okay, I think I'm going to change the main page of ToG to describe the reason why some characters are High 7-A+

 

[ElajRuengies]

? Again, it doesn't show that BMM Baam is 4x stronger, it just superior to the combined might of two Rankers, the attack was strong enough to overpower two Rankers and had enough strength to kill them if it landed,

Yes, and the strength to kill them if it landed should be at least the might of two Rankers, given that it should take a Ranker level attack to kill a Ranker.

This isn't like if the attacks cancelled each other out exactly like with Stardust vs. Leviathan (so X attack = Y attack), or if it managed to overpower it by some degree but the people overpowered were fine- like with Khel Hellam vs. Base Evankhell and Yama (so X attack > Y attack by some arbitrary amount), this that the attack blew threw the other attack, and could still kill the people overpowered afterwards (so X attack = Y attack + Required AP to kill attackers)

I know I'm repeating myself, but I don't see the error in that logic. To me, what you are saying is "It isn't 4, it's 2 + 2"

if we were to follow this logic , King Kong Gun should be 2x stronger than normal Gear 4th attacks or Base Natsu 4x stronger than Sting and Rogue

I don't care about how this logic is applied to other verses, namely because I didn't read Fairytail

OK, I'm going to do that now. Fair enough about Koon Ran with Redan, but I can't get rid of Town level due to the fact that we don't have another accepted scale to scale characters comparable to Ran without Redan so we can replace it. Also, a full power Essence of Bravery Form Kallavan scales to Evankhell's Partial Release of Ancient Power (EoBF Kallavan was considered one of the High Rankers from Zahard's Army who are able to contend with Evankhell's Partial Release, as Evanhell herself said), who clashed with the Partial Release of Khel Hellam, who overpowered an combined from Base Yama and Evankhell (without Partial Release). And as I recall, Jinsung's Dragon Tiger Gate is dura negation hax

Ah, right, I forgot about Evankhell saying that; fair enough.

Okay, I think I'm going to change the main page of ToG to describe the reason why some characters are High 7-A+

Keep your digital shoes where they are, we're not done with this debate yet!

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Alright, I don’t have time to discuss this now, so I'll postpone this for later (I'm a little busy) and let more people of this thread have more opinions about this subject

OK

Ok

I mean, you said "Cool" and it left me with the impression that you agreed with that (about Dorian Frog and comparable characters being High 7-A+), what don't you agree with although?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Alright, I don’t have time to discuss this now, so I'll postpone this for later (I'm a little busy) and let more people of this thread have more opinions about this subject

Relatable Alright then, real life stuff comes first

I mean, you said "Cool" and it left me with the impression that you agreed with that (about Dorian Frog and comparable characters being High 7-A+), what don't you agree with although?

Oooh, yeah I do agree with that, nevermind I thought it was something else

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Ok, for now I will agree with BMM Baam being 4x stronger than a normal Ranker. If this is really accepted, who will scale to him in this transformation?

Also, shouldn't we downgrade the characters who are "Likely Relativistic" to "At least Massively Hypersonic+" (Any version of Season 2 Baam prior his TSM and Data Maschenny)? As I recall, Data Zahard is only Relativistic after getting serious, while his suppressed state is Massively Hypersonic +

 

[ElajRuengies]

Sorry about randomly going quiet; was crash prepping for SAT yesterday / did SAT today and then conked out

Ok, for now I will agree with BMM Baam being 4x stronger than a normal Ranker. If this is really accepted, who will scale to him in this transformation?

FTI + TSM HF Baam, Data Jahad, and Data Eduan- should be same as before.
Stardust, Leviathan, and Data Eduan's Strongest Techniques would get changed to just [higher]

Also, shouldn't we downgrade the characters who are "Likely Relativistic" to "At least Massively Hypersonic+" (Any version of Season 2 Baam prior his TSM and Data Maschenny)? As I recall, Data Zahard is only Relativistic after getting serious, while his suppressed state is Massively Hypersonic +

Sure, although do we even have a specific value for At least Massively Hypersonic+?

Massively Hypersonic+'s staple is Workshop Redan Ran. (Mach 1673.2)
At least Massively Hypersonic+'s staple is Daniel, who is way faster than Hell Train Redan Ran, who should be much faster than Workshop Redan Ran
Weakened Hoaqin is way faster than Daniel
Arie Inieta should be somewhat comparable to Weaken Hoaqin due to Kaiser scaling
Name Hunt Redan Ran is comparable to Arie Inieta
2nd Redan NH Ran is twice as fast
NH Bam w/ Thorn and Kaiser's weapons should be at least as fast as 2nd Redan NH Ran
FoD Bam w/ Thorn should be faster than NH Bam w/ Thorn
HF Bam w/ Thorn (Pre Revolution) should be faster than FoD Bam w/ Thorn
Base Data Maschenny should be faster than HF Bam w/ Thorn (Pre Revolution)
Redan Data Maschenny should be twice as fast as that.

Just going by the Redan Multipliers since Workshop Redan Ran, Redan Data Maschenny is Mach 6692.8, and that's without factoring in the five counts of upscaling. Honestly, I could see Redan Data Maschenny breaking into Sub Relativistic (starts at Mach 8810.2)

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Shouldn't High Rankers like Gado, Base Paul, Soo-oh and other scale to BBM Baam too? Also, just letting you know, I don't completely agree with BMM Baam being 4x stronger than normal Ranker as I said before, I'm just waiting for more people to speak up on this subject (I think you should ask to the most active people in ToG on this site besides you and me in their profile posts or message wall on whether they agree with you on the BMM Baam scale, since it’s not something I’m 100% confident of applying like the other scalings)

Well, I think "Sub-Relativistic" for Redan Data Maschenny and Post-Revolution/Last Station Arc Baam with 1st Thorn and 2nd Thorn should be fine. Since it seems this is within the uspcaling standards that allow jump to other tier in this site (which is 1.4x)

 

[ElajRuengies]

Shouldn't High Rankers like Gado, Base Paul, Soo-oh and other scale to BBM Baam too?

Yes, they would scale as well- good catch

Also, just letting you know, I don't completely agree with BMM Baam being 4x stronger than normal Ranker as I said before, I'm just waiting for more people to speak up on this subject (I think you should ask to the most active people in ToG on this site besides you and me in their profile posts or message wall on whether they agree with you on the BMM Baam scale, since it’s not something I’m 100% confident of applying like the other scalings)

I messaged Arceus and ImNot4nUser- is there anyone else?

Well, I think "Sub-Relativistic" for Redan Data Maschenny and Post-Revolution/Last Station Arc Baam with 1st Thorn and 2nd Thorn should be fine. Since it seems this is within the uspcaling standards that allow jump to other tier in this site (which is 1.4x)

Sounds fair

Side Note: Honestly S3 Baam's jump from Ranker level to High Ranker level makes sense when you realize what triggered it; namely Baylord Doom giving him "The Ultimate Canine power" in an attempt to be able to mind control him, and it synergizing with the Red Thyrssa, which took hole repairman Average Joe (Who got his butt kicked by Hockney) and made him into [I can fight Yuri w/ Two Months Ignited] Hell Joe

It doesn't completely justify True Self Mode being at Kallavan arm-wounding level, but it's still somewhat consistent

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

OK

There is also @Nico-v11. I think he is the most active besides the two you mentioned, only he has not been participating in this Discussion Threads lately

Yes, it kind of makes sense as you say, but remember that Baam had to use TSM+2nd Thorn+His own version of Dragon Tiger Gate to bypass Kallavan's durability (even normal Piercing Techniques are dura negation powers), it wasn't really his raw power (as he did against Data Zahard's arms for example) did that damage to Kallavan, was one of the strongest Piercing Techniques we've seen in the series so far, being behind the Dragon Tiger Gate (Heck, even I think Base Yama wouldn't really be able to endure that technique without seriously injuring himself and it should be able to easily kill High Rankers at the level of Base Yuri)

Also, shouldn't Baam have Rage Power and Berserk Mode? The first one is when his hatred for Rachel's agressive actions towards him during the Train City Arc enraged him, allowing him to boost his power and speed to blitz and one-shot Daniel (also, when he fought Post-3 Siblings Hoaqin, at the moment he got enraged after how Hoaqin got 1 Billion souls, he grew more faster and stronger during the Dallar Show Round 3), and the second one is when he after drew more of 1st Thorn's power, made him more aggressive and on the offensive against Daniel and Buelsar (of course, although he is still conscious enough to differentiate between enemy and friend, this still counts as Berserk Mode due to the fact that he is unnecessarily aggressive, which is not really his normal fighting style)

 

[ElajRuengies]

OK

There is also @Nico-v11. I think he is the most active besides the two you mentioned, only he has not been participating in this Discussion Threads lately

Yes, it kind of makes sense as you say, but remember that Baam had to use TSM+2nd Thorn+His own version of Dragon Tiger Gate to bypass Kallavan's durability (even normal Piercing Techniques are dura negation powers), it wasn't really his raw power (as he did against Data Zahard's arms for example) did that damage to Kallavan, was one of the strongest Piercing Techniques we've seen in the series so far, being behind the Dragon Tiger Gate (Heck, even I think Base Yama wouldn't really be able to endure that technique without seriously injuring himself and it should be able to easily kill High Rankers at the level of Base Yuri)

That's true- in terms of raw power he isn't at Kallavan arm wounding level, only Kallavan scratching level (and even then, that was a Stardust so it still has some dura-negation powers and Karaka helped, meaning his physical AP is actually slightly lower, especially given that the Red Thyrssa while using the 1st Thorn did jack to Kallavan. He's still at least Base Yuri level though)

It's just that Piercing Techniques are absolutely busted and great for dealing damage outside your weight class-

[Black March Style: Flare Wave Explosion]
VAD: Jeez, that thing is pretty damn scary.
Charlie: One hit from that and we're done for!

Huh... That makes more sense now.
Okay- uh, gimme a second to just scarf down this humble pie real quick;

... As Piercing Techniques have dura-negation, one cannot use that attack from Baam one shotting Rankers as a measurement of AP, as such, only the initial strike breaking through their two attacks can be used... meaning BMM Bam only scales to above the AP of two Rankers. Using the statement of killing a Ranker even if it grazed one also cannot be used, as piercing techniques have been shown to be effective even when not landing a direct hit, such as the Extreme FBPT against Kaiser.

Also, shouldn't Baam have Rage Power and Berserk Mode? The first one is when his hatred for Rachel's agressive actions towards him during the Train City Arc enraged him, allowing him to boost his power and speed to blitz and one-shot Daniel (also, when he fought Post-3 Siblings Hoaqin, at the moment he got enraged after how Hoaqin got 1 Billion souls, he grew more faster and stronger during the Dallar Show Round 3), and the second one is when he after drew more of 1st Thorn's power, made him more aggressive and on the offensive against Daniel and Buelsar (of course, although he is still conscious enough to differentiate between enemy and friend, this still counts as Berserk Mode due to the fact that he is unnecessarily aggressive, which is not really his normal fighting style)

Eh, the first one's a little iffy, since it wasn't the Rage itself making Baam stronger, but him losing control of the Thorn as a result of him getting angry. The Thorn going out of control is what made Bam stronger, not him being angry. (Also, him getting faster during the Dallar Show final was just him pushing himself really hard) With that being said, it's fair to have the Thorn going out of control as a Berserk Mode

Random extra bits:
I think only Red Witches can see their own death, since they specialize in seeing fate while Silver Dwarves are better at seeing the immediate crossroads right in front of them
Arie Inieta isn't a teenager; it's said that he came to the Name Hunt Station around 100 years ago. (I'd change that myself but I don't know how to edit the category thingy)

 

[Arceus0x]

I was asked to comment about this a while ago, sorry for being kinda ded. Anyways here is what i replied with

 

[Arceus0x]

Considering he can essentially one shot them i would say if we use the One shot ap, about 7.5x. But considering we cannot use that, i'd say At least 2x.

 

[Arceus0x]

I just wanna follow the rules and so he is, by an unknown extent, at minimum 2x+ times above them

 

[ImNot4nUser]

i disagree with multipliers, and there is(was?) a crt of one shotting ppl and if multipliers apply, unless i got lost and is already done, cause i forgot time was a thing.

Also Bam shinsu dont get weaker after interacting with something, because of his shinsu quality, it gets strongers instead, unless it only applies to Baam water like shinsu only, but i doubt it.

as so i dont think bam attack is like 4 times stronger as an example

being 4x stronger than a normal Ranker

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Does anyone here know how to change the name of a profile? I've been trying to change the name from "Twenty-Fifth Baam" to "Twenty-Fifth Baam (Season 2)" for some time, but I just can't do it.

Also, does anyone here think it is worth creating a profile for Season 1 Baam?

 

[ElajRuengies]

No idea- if I did then Koon would be changed to Khun for all Khun profiles

Eh, a S1 Bam profile would look something like the Phanta profile, except without the giant abilities section. He's basically featless

 

[ElajRuengies]

Houston, we have a problem- (specifically with two difference calcs)

You know how the Rose Shower calc assumes the Name Hunt Station is 1 kilometer across?
Yeah... it's really more like half that (reference pictures here; the text for the first calc is flubbed- it's supposed to be 1.8 + (1.8/8)/2; but the output is correct)
Scaling the current volume and speed the Rose Shower Calc is done by, with the new NHS size gets an output of

• ((12886459717796996*10^15)*(0.535^3) * (1969.333*0.535)^2) = 1.10295123e+21 joules or...

263.6 Gigatons; a difference of over 22 fold from the current 5.97 Teratons. Although I'd argue that the methods used by the calc approximate too much and the calc would need to be redone with a different way completely, but I'll talk about that later.

Secondly, it turns out that there is a shot that has what should be the full length of the Hell Train in it, and it's this tiny one (here) with Evan above the dock that the Hell Train is supposed to go into along with the Last Station, that Water Jelly just closed off, and uh... it's just a smidge longer than 20 cars.
The Dock Tube + Last Station is about 132 cars long [not surprising since Freight Trains can pull up to 200 cars], meaning the Hell Train calc's KE output should be [132/20] times what the current value is, or-

• 132/20 * 2.38645 = 15.75057

~15.75 Gigatons... Huh. (I read through Last Station like 3 times while doing the Train calc- honestly I should've noticed this then)

Any idea what to do about this?

 

[ImNot4nUser]

redo the calcs ig

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Yes, I also agree that it is only necessary to redo the two calcs, but I will still talk about it

About the first calc, if its correct, well, downgrades are inevitable in relation to any verse on this site, so I'm not surprised by Yuri's Rose Shower downgrade, but I think now the difference of power between the Top 300 and the High Rankers bellow them is even bigger and more drastic than before (now TSM Baam and Karaka scratching a suppressed EoBF Kallavan with their combined attacks will be pretty weird), but yes, it's still too early to draw any conclusions, so I'll just wait for you to detail more about this calc in the Blogs

Regarding the second calc, I don't see anything wrong (although I'm not a calcs expert), so I think 6-C is back (ironically in the past, TSM Baam with FTI and Data Zahard were 6-C), well, I think this calc is better than the previous High 7-A (2.38 Gigatons), it always bothered me that Maschenny while only at the 1/3rd of her climbing in the Tower was only less 7x weaker than normal Rankers and although when she was finishing climbing, she was still nothing compared to Rankers in power until she finished her climbing

 

[ElajRuengies]

Yes, I also agree that it is only necessary to redo the two calcs, but I will still talk about it

About the first calc, if its correct, well, downgrades are inevitable in relation to any verse on this site, so I'm not surprised by Yuri's Rose Shower downgrade, but I think now the difference of power between the Top 300 and the High Rankers bellow them is even bigger and more drastic than before (now TSM Baam and Karaka scratching a suppressed EoBF Kallavan with their combined attacks will be pretty weird), but yes, it's still too early to draw any conclusions, so I'll just wait for you to detail more about this calc in the Blogs

Long-story short about the Rose Shower calc, the current method only includes the amount of roses that are shown in panel and models it as a cube with a side length of the panel edge, despite the scattering of roses being more akin to a pile / stumpy cone / amorphous disk with a radius that can be found via angisizing various objects. Although I doubt that completely cancels out a 22-fold decrease, so the corrected AP is likely still way less than 5.97 Teratons, which makes things... interesting for 1% Urek scaling.

(Side Note: The Moses Punch is weird as it's both a highball and a lowball, considering that it (for highballing) uses the depth of the ocean for the water-knock out part, despite the fact that the body of water-blood is described as a Lake, assumes that the Mountain chain is 500 kilometers long despite how that would make each Mountain shown the size of Everest and the lake bigger than any of the Great Lakes, (now for lowballing) while it also uses the volume of the spherical cap of the 2nd largest bubble which assumes that the depth of rock effected stays the same and doesn't get deeper, in which case the standard hemisphere formula would be fine, and also lowballs the volume of the biggest bubble at 4 times the volume effected when it should be at least 8 times.

I'm actually fine with the current output though, because the effect of the punch is shown to break through the top of the Admin's corpse, which means that the radius of the largest bubble had to have been hundreds of kilometers in length due to how the Admin's Corpse takes up a significant amount of the vertical space of a Floor, and a Floor is at least 800 kilometers high. (Due to various calcs on how it took Yuri and Evan a little over a month to discreetly travel from the 1st to the 2nd Floor at what was basically a walking pace.)

Regarding the second calc, I don't see anything wrong (although I'm not a calcs expert), so I think 6-C is back (ironically in the past, TSM Baam with FTI and Data Zahard were 6-C), well, I think this calc is better than the previous High 7-A (2.38 Gigatons), it always bothered me that Maschenny while only at the 1/3rd of her climbing in the Tower was only less 7x weaker than normal Rankers and although when she was finishing climbing, she was still nothing compared to Rankers in power until she finished her climbing

Since the methodology at least for the calc was already accepted, can I just update the blog with the edit for the correct number of cars, or am I going to have to get at least 1 reconfirmation again?

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@ElajRuengies

I mean, it doesn't have that calc from Urek's finger attack calc (which is Low 6-B+ [4.6 Teratons for Low-End and 6.9 Teratons for High-End]), but I'm not sure if it can be applied to characters who scale to Pre-The Nest Arc Karaka (he survived the attack, but half of his body was destroyed in the process), but at least I am sure that Family Heads and Zahard scales to this

I think it's safe to need at least one reconfirmation from a calc member for edited calcs, I know it sounds like a boring policy, but these are the rules of this site

 

[ElajRuengies]

Alright so I messaged DMUA on his wall about the Hell Train Calc being updated, so hopefully that'll be dealt with soon; the Rose Shower Redux will be finished whenever I get to it, I'm a bit busy rn

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

No problem

Also, do you think that the Regulars, no longer being a threat and relevant over the time, was something expected and unavoidable? Considering Baam's status as Irregular, his talent and the fact that his current Base form was vastly stronger than the Top 100 High Rankers during the time they were finishing their climbing in the Tower as Regulars

 

[ElajRuengies]

No problem

Also, do you think that the Regulars, no longer being a threat and relevant over the time, was something expected and unavoidable? Considering Baam's status as Irregular, his talent and the fact that his current Base form was vastly stronger than the Top 100 High Rankers during the time they were finishing their climbing in the Tower as Regulars

I mean, for threat level, it was definitely bound to happen at some point, although admittedly way back in FoD I expected Bam reaching Ranker level to cement itself around Floor 77 (To coincide w/ getting to Wolhaiksong's Floor), or somewhere else around halfway up the Tower, not 2/5ths up the Tower.

The unexpected part isn't Bam getting this strong, it's Bam getting this strong this fast. I think the biggest contributor to this is the leap between Ranker to High Ranker level, which even SIU lampshades-

Gado’s feet getting cut off feels like it makes Bam OP,
but Thorn + Red Thryssa buff is in play, and looking at the lore face value out looking at their specs, something even more over the top wouldn’t have been crazy for these guys, so….
I feel like narratively I have to keep them in check normally and then jump forward on weeks like this. It’s hard ^^;
Manhwa is hard.
In conclusion, Bam is a regular but is also REALLY dangerous…?

(He's right- for Average Joe to Hell Joe reasons I mentioned)

With that being said, while Regulars have lost their threat level even to a portion of not-Bam people (given that both Khun and Rak now have hax that make them pseudo Ranker level support [Woon's Firefish and the Ancient's Spear]), I wouldn't say that makes them lose their relevance. Since not everything is a fight in ToG (although fights have taken a gradually increased spotlight as time goes on, they still aren't plot central- that's the Lore's job), you can have conflict surrounding other Regulars that isn't/can't be fixed punching by the problem in the face.

(Also, the good ol' Hostages trick works no matter how strong your opponent is, as demonstrated by Yool)

Side Note: I got the okay for the new Hell Train value!

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Yes, it was expected that Baam would become Ranker level while being a Regular, but I also didn’t expect it to be so soon (you know, during the end of Season 2, I expected a timeskip of at least a few decades for Baam to become this strong, two years is very, very little considering the time patterns in ToG, even with SIU using Baam's growth rate as an excuse), but you know, from the moment I was being foreshadowing the fight of Data Zahard and Baam, I kind of expected from that moment I thought that the Regulars were going to stop being relevant in any way

Yes, I also agree that not everything is a fight in ToG, but now I feel that abusing the hostage trick is necessary from now on, even more than it was before

Yes, I just saw the edit of the Hell Train calc, it looks like 6-C ToG was not an illusion, but something real after all

Also, I'll be honest, Rachel and Baam relationship overall development is a realistic version of what two certain ninja's relationship should be like

 

[Arceus0x]

damn i always disliked that feat. Like, is the rose shower's energy the energy of creating it or moving it? whatevs.

We now have a good 6-C feat and all we need to do now is look through the rest of the feats. Do we need a recalc of the urek explosions or nah?

Also any links to the 800km calc?

 

[ElajRuengies]

damn i always disliked that feat. Like, is the rose shower's energy the energy of creating it or moving it? whatevs.

Moving it; specifically the total energy of that mass of roses moving to it's place shown in the panel after a certain timeframe

We now have a good 6-C feat and all we need to do now is look through the rest of the feats. Do we need a recalc of the urek explosions or nah?

Nah, the calc itself fine enough, although the scaling logic used is honestly a little weird

Also any links to the 800km calc?

None available because I didn't make a blog for it (instead I just roughly estimated) but the math goes like this-
Time it took Yuri and Evan to go from Floor 1 to Floor 2 going through the Middle Tower- A little over a month (31 days + 1 day as a minimum)
Speed of Travel- Due to having to stop and scout different winding paths, the group was shown to be progressing at effectively a walking speed
A person can walk up to 30 miles (~48km) a day, Yuri's group should be capable of at least this, and this also factors in meal breaks and sleeping.

• 48 * 32 = 1536 kilometers

This is only their total distance though, while the height of a Floor is vertical. Modeling the entire trip as on average, on a 30-degree incline (a bit flatter than the standard for stairs but more steep than a ramp)-

• 1536 * sin(30) = 768 kilometers

And finally- because this was a conservative estimate, I can round up to 800 kilometers and I don't think it'll be highballing

 

[Arceus0x]

seems legit

 

[ElajRuengies]

Alright so after updating the AP key in order to reflect the new calc, I can't load pages anymore and I keep getting errors. Is this happening for anyone else?

Edit: Alright it stopped happening so I was able to edit stuff

 

[ElajRuengies]

Oh yeah, the revision for the Rose Shower calc is done (kind of- there's a third calc / 2nd take on the new method that I could do if I had the time); the High and Low ends are 759.7 Gigatons and 1.8 Teratons with the old and new method respectively (The timeframe was revised as well)

 

[ElajRuengies]

While thinking about the implications of the 0.76 - 1.8 Teraton Rose Shower, I realized something.

While I'm fine with the [Scaling Top 300 High Rankers to Hell Joe] rule of narrative thumb we have in order to get values for folk like Dokoko and higher, why do we scale Hell Joe to 10% Urek?

Firstly, for durability- Hell Joe didn't get directly hit by the 10% Punch; it clipped him to the side and you can see him tilt a bit, and it blew through a lot of things behind Joe, but it didn't directly hit him.

Secondly, for AP- None of his attacks ever hurt Urek; and Urek even managed to completely counter one before he took off the anklet and thus was at 5%, and right after the 10% punch Urek completely dispersed his "crimson disaster" by snapping his fingers.
Even when the Red Thyrssa took the wheel and Joe got stronger, he still didn't hurt Urek at all with his first move, and all subsequent damage to Urek was just him acting.

Now, since Urek did have to take off the anklet, Hell Joe is definitely 5% Urek level, but setting him to 10% Urek's Punch is like how Kaiser was scaled to Bam's Extreme Flare Wave Explosion despite it completely overpowering her and not even directly hitting her