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Tower of God General Discussion Thread Part 5
- Thread starter Kevenkiller
- Start date
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as supporters i guess i have to ask for input of yall in the crt, sooo pretty please . ( 'v' )?
as well as the most active in tog alone i guess
as well as the most active in tog alone i guess
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Shouldn't Zahard(the real one) get fate manipulation? I've been thinking, what he did to khel Hellam is very different from what happened when Baam did. Zahard made Kel Hellam see the wrong future while Baam just made impossible to see anything at all.
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Well, yes and not really. He changed the fate that Khel foresaw, as all irregulars do.
He still did it by his active involvement, he was supposed to be asleep as that was the fate that Khel saw. And he wasn't.
Bam should outright have Precognition and Clairvoyance Negation. His aura that blanks stuff don't resist them, it outright don't allow the use in the first place.(also precog is useless either way for irregulars, because of... acausal stuff)
the second case is Zahard involvement with Khel visions in the cage arc where he sends Yasratcha because of that, he knew of fate with his own precog, and changed it to his benefit, still wouldn't call it fate manip tho... Just good use of precog and acausality.
we DO have this statement of SIU in nest arc tho:
this time he isn't even involved and there are more statements too implying the outcome of everything was decided by someone higher up... but i can't find the scan, till now i don't think that's enough, tho in the future im CERTAIN that he will...
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What IM4U said^
It's Resistance, Not Negation because Hockney's Eyes (which were gifted with limited precog by witnessing Enryu in all of his bishonen glory) was able to see Bam and Urek's future, implying that high enough Precog hax can bypass Irregulars being Irregulars. (Ofc, Data Jahad was in turn stopping Hockney's eyes, implying he's got Even Higher Precog resistance, but Zahard's Zahard)
Alright so I looked over the Bamboo Spear calc again
Bam w/ 1st Thorn: 1.196 Megatons (or just 1.2), Low 7-B
Post-Spirit Room White: 4.96 Teratons, or Low 6-B+
Honestly the lower result for Bam makes more sense in hindsight; him quadrupling his AP after a month was kind of pushing it,
Here's what the updated AP list is looking like for the relevant folk in light of this-
Possibly 6-B's: 7 Teratons
- Elpathion (At most)
- Paul w/ Partial Transformation
- Post-Clone White (without Spinel or his Strongest Techniques)
- Yuri with Green April Ignition
- Sharon
- S3 True Self Mode Baam w/ 1st Thorn
- S2 Karaka's durability
- S3 True Self Mode Baam w/ 1st & 2nd Thorn (At least)
- Weakened Doom (At least)
- Base Doom (At least)
- Elpathion (At most)
- Base Yuri
- S2 Karaka
- Nest Arc Karaka (At least)
- S2 Cheonhee
- S3 Cheonhee (At least)
- Dorian Frog (upper end)
- Evan Edrok
- Gado (upper end)
- Paul (upper end)
- Soo-oh (upper end)
- Real Yu Han Sung (upper end)
- Red Thryssa Transformations Baam (upper end)
- FoD Bam w/ 1st Thorn
- Early Hidden Floor Bam w/ 1st Thorn
- Data Yu Han Sung
- Hidden Floor Arc Endorsi
- Post Siblings Hoaqin
- Power of Souls S2 Bam
- Post Training Khun
- S3 Khun
- Post Training Rak
- S3 Rak
- S3 Hatz
- Name Hunt Base Bam
- Floor of Death Base Bam (at least)
- Early Hidden Floor Base Bam (at least)
- Hidden Floor Khun (at least)
- Hidden Floor Rak (at least)
- Originally this had Nest Arc Karaka's AP (and S3 Cheonhee by scaling) as scaling to Post Clone White's or Green April Ignition Yuri's AP, but that didn't really make sense as nothing suggested that Nest Arc Karaka's AP was that level, as [mildly annoying Kallavan] isn't a solid reference for scaling.
It is saidthat Yu Han Sung, had he become a High Ranker, would have a Rank similar to that of Yuri's (Top 500). Additionally he has now fought a Division Commander on equal-ish footing twice now (Cheonhee Round 2 and Haratcha- the first time with Cheonhee doesn't count as there were hostages), so it's safe to say that Han Sung (and by scaling Soo Oh) are solidly Low 6-B. Dorian Frog and folk like him still get the "At least 6-C/higher" treatment. On second thought, going over the recent chapter in both LINE and an early fanslation, Hansung's durability isn't quite there with High Rankers- Post Siblings Hoaqin and by extension PoS Bam is now Low 7-B, as the AP difference is no longer huge enough that it warrants a separate tab for 3 Orders Post Siblings Hoaqin to not retroactively cause problems. This also means that "At least High 7-C+, likely higher" is no longer a thing.
- Floor of Death and Early Hidden Floor Base Bam are no longer High 7-C+ / At least High 7-C+, as there is no scaling that suggests they are that strong and thus are based on upscaling due to arbitrary superiority. (Also, FoD/Early HF Base Bam being as strong as Kaiser seemed kinda weird anyway)
- This also means that I can finally tackle the problem of how the profiles have "Post Training" Khun & Rak fighting Data Viole, even though the training had barely started at that point and they had basically no control over their shinsoo types. Thus it's more appropriate to put that scaling with "Hidden Floor" Khun & Rak. which also means that their Hidden Floor keys can finally be separated from their Floor of Death / Name Hunt Station keys.
- Post Training Khun & Rak scale to Kaiser due to Rule of Thumb, which is totally different from upscaling due to arbitrary superiority because... reasons. (Look nobody's perfect)
- EDIT: Paul w/ Partial Transformation is 7 Teratons on account of Dokoko being on a completely different level as him.
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Honestly, I think Weakened Doom, Current Doom without Half-Body Transformation, Elpathion and S3 True Self Mode Baam w/ 1st & 2nd Thorn should be "At least Low 6-B+", since Yuri's Rose Shower's calc (5.9 Teratons) is no longer valid, they're not as close to the 6-B baseline as before and there's still the issue that upscaling isn't as high as before because of the calcs that put some sub-tiers in the Tier Low 6-B now. Also, because a bit of personal taste, I prefer them to be High-End in Low 6-B than the 6-B baseline
I think S2 Karaka and S2 Cheonhee should be solid Low 6-B like Yuri, as they have consistently shown themselves to be solid Low 6-B, as Cheonhee can clash practically evenly with Yuri's Rose Shower (none have shown any advantage over the another one during the clash, since when their attacks collide, they were neutralized, indicating that they are comparable), it was only when they entered a physical strength fight that Yuri had the advantage (and I think this is more of a very good feat of physical might for Yuri) and Karaka, unlike the others on the list, also only faced Low 6-B characters (such as fighting Yuri several times, blocking her blows and destroying Sharon Marine Swords), showing consistency as I said, throughout the entire S2 he never fought against a 6-C character to have this tier, only Low 6-B characters.
About S3 Karaka and S3 Cheonhee, I'll talk about it tomorrow
I think S2 Karaka and S2 Cheonhee should be solid Low 6-B like Yuri, as they have consistently shown themselves to be solid Low 6-B, as Cheonhee can clash practically evenly with Yuri's Rose Shower (none have shown any advantage over the another one during the clash, since when their attacks collide, they were neutralized, indicating that they are comparable), it was only when they entered a physical strength fight that Yuri had the advantage (and I think this is more of a very good feat of physical might for Yuri) and Karaka, unlike the others on the list, also only faced Low 6-B characters (such as fighting Yuri several times, blocking her blows and destroying Sharon Marine Swords), showing consistency as I said, throughout the entire S2 he never fought against a 6-C character to have this tier, only Low 6-B characters.
About S3 Karaka and S3 Cheonhee, I'll talk about it tomorrow
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I can see the reasoning for Weakened Doom, Base Doom, and TSM Baam w/ 1st and 2nd Thorn not longer being at the cusp of 6-B, as yeah the scaling chain isn't as long as before so the upscaling isn't as solid, but I feel like Elpathion should stay at 7 Teratons on account of having been implied to fight Base Kallavan, and having Evankhell be unable to kill him at a distance, requiring her to directly attack in order to kill him.
Also, what about Partial Transformed Paul (I added him); as his scaling to Baseline 6-B is based on what Doom said about him and Dokoko
Wait- Karaka fought Sharon? [Looks back]
Oh yeah, when he saved Bam during Last Station; alright fair enough Pre Nest Karaka and S2 Cheonhee are solid Low 6-B
Cool
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No idea (I might come up with one later, or maybe not- summer school is hard); currently working on a Calc for S2 TSM Bam based on how Data Jahad's Arena is 120 km tall, and he divided a section on it w/ Ultimate Blue Shield (this chapter)
Rankers may or may not be getting another AP boost
(Or at the very least, "Elite" Rankers like Charlie)
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I think I got one
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Also, when you add Acausality Type 4, Limited Law Manipulation and Resistance to Limited Law Manipulation for the Irregulars, be sure to leave the CRT link in the edit and also put some scans in the explanation section of those powers and resistance
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Looks good!
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well, i forgot to add it in White, so i will have to add a small edit saying that (unless there is some way to correct that
)
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the tower civilization profile? sign me in
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Also, shouldn't we get rid of Resistance to Precognition/Clairvoyance? Kind of like Acausality Type 4 already gives them that and makes it redundant
If location profiles are allowed, how about giving the Tower Large Size Type 5, likely higher? Due to its true size, being unknown as we only know that exists 135th Floors
If location profiles are allowed, how about giving the Tower Large Size Type 5, likely higher? Due to its true size, being unknown as we only know that exists 135th Floors
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TSM Mode Bam and "Elite Rankers" like Charlie just got a sizable AP increase (calc here)
TSM Mode Bam scales to 42.5 Gigatons... wow
(The Hell Train calc isn't getting replaced- since Rankers like Pedro still scale to it)
Also yeah
TSM Mode Bam scales to 42.5 Gigatons... wow
(The Hell Train calc isn't getting replaced- since Rankers like Pedro still scale to it)
I think I saw of draft of that somewhere actually
Okay but now I'm curious how big the Outside World is supposed to be, given how Urek said it was at least thousands of times larger than the Tower.
Also yeah
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I'm sure Data Zahard and Data Eduan will scale to it. So, which Rankers will scale to S2 TSM Baam then? Also, the High Rankers who have the low-end 6-C in their profiles should scale to it, since the Hell Train calc which Dorian managed to stop was casual for his part and they should be much stronger than Elite Rankers due to lore and portrayment in the webtoon
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well, i assume the planet is normal planet sized, and that the tower is just like a big compressed pocket dimensio, just like Karaka armor has a pocket dimension.
and the outer world is just like the universe
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Here's what I got- how does this look?
Likely Island level: 5.3 Gigatons (Three Rankers Stop a Train)
- S3 Base Bam (Struggles against folk like Pan and R)
- Yeon Woon
- Pedro (Karaka's Minions who fought some of the folk who stopped the Hell Train were said to be as strong/a bit stronger than Pedro)
- Akryung (At most)
- Jordan (The shot with him fighting Base Culdan had him already Transformed to Level 2; Base Jordan and "2nd Form: Green Furry Beast" were both struggling against the Elder's Attendant in his base form)
- Lo Po Bia Lepavuv
- Khun Hachuling
- Lero Ro
- Kurudan
- Charlie (Fought TSM Mode Bam)
- S2 True Self Mode Bam
- Pedro w/ Purple Dementor
- Jordan's 2nd Transformation: Dog Bite (Completely immobilized a Transformed Elder's Attendant)
- S3 Bam w/ 1st Thorn (Said by SIU that he'd give even a transformed Canine Ranker a hard time)
- Black March Mode Bam (Outpowered Charlie + Vice Alter Director at the same time)
- True Self Mode Bam w/ 1st Thorn Ignition (At least)
- Data Jahad
- Data Eduan
- Stardust, Leviathan, and Eduan's Strongest Techniques
- Dorian Frog (Lower end)
- Yu Han Sung (Lower end)
- Soo Oh (Lower end)
- Jordan's 3rd Transformation: Aimbot (Stunned Gado, but needed Canzon's help to stall him past that)
- Gado (Lower end- A threat to Paul who fought Karaka, can wake up Yama which Karaka needed help to do- although granted the aftermath implied Yama might have only half-woke up)
- Paul (Lower end)
- Red Thyrssa Bam (Traded blows with Gado, but was eventually being overwhelmed and would be killed. Outmatched Season 3 Charlie)
- Red Thyrssa Bam w/ 1st Thorn (At least- stronger than before. Should be equal to Gado and was a serious threat to him)
- Dorian Frog (Upper end)
- Yu Han Sung (Upper end- said that a direct hit from a High Ranker would kill him; but his skills and smarts make up for the AP difference in combat)
- Soo Oh (Upper end- Fought Hansung)
- Pre-Nest Karaka
- Red Thyrssa Bam w/ 1st Thorn (Upper end)
- Gado (Upper end)
- Paul (Upper end)
- Yuri
- Evan
- S3 Karaka (At least)
- Cheonhee
- S3 Cheonhee (At least)
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Honestly, about Elpathion, I think "At least Low 6-B+, possibly 6-B" is fine, as he is considerably superior to Sharon due to his ranking within Kallavan's subordinates (despite being a Light Bearer, which is quite a lot impressive) and indicating that among the people that Kallavan fought to turn into his servants, Elpathion should be the strongest of them.
About Paul with Partial Transformations, I will agree with that
But about S3 Karaka and S3 Cheonhee, I think they should be "At least Low 6-B (without the +)", as you proposed, as I'm not in the mood to discuss it right now
I think Gado, Base Paul and other characters comparable to them should be "At least High 6-C, likely Low 6-B"
About S2 Karaka, I think he should be "Likely Low 6-B"
About Paul with Partial Transformations, I will agree with that
But about S3 Karaka and S3 Cheonhee, I think they should be "At least Low 6-B (without the +)", as you proposed, as I'm not in the mood to discuss it right now
I think Gado, Base Paul and other characters comparable to them should be "At least High 6-C, likely Low 6-B"
About S2 Karaka, I think he should be "Likely Low 6-B"
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@Arceus0x
We don't have the Low 7-C anymore, but we have 7-A, also, Enryu and the Administrators will be upgrade to High 6-A if one of the @ElajRuengies is accepted
We don't have the Low 7-C anymore, but we have 7-A, also, Enryu and the Administrators will be upgrade to High 6-A if one of the @ElajRuengies is accepted
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Both 7-B and 7-A due to Redan multipliers- also the 6-C calc is still valid
Before I try and get that one evaluated- I'm trying to find the blogpost that said that the weather/climate/ecosystem on the floor is what the Administrator wants, as further evidence that they can destroy oceans
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The thing is, that's where I'd put Canzon, and Gado routinely stomps him every single time. Plus, he's stated to be among the fastest of the non-Top 300 HRs of the cast (Source)
(Albeit that's doesn't prove anything AP wise)
Actually wait, how about this-
Gado is [At least Large Island level, likely Country level] in Base, and [Likely Country level] with Level 7 Transformation
Paul is Likely Country level
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Nah, I think just "At least High 6-C, likely Low 6-B" for Gado, Base Paul and Baam with Red Thryssa Transformations (and just put the "higher" for him when he had the 1st Thorn activated) in overall is good enough
Also, I think it's better to ignore this SIU thing that Baam had plor armor when he fought Gado while using the Red Thryssa, it just seems like more of his attempts to downplay Baam (you know he's done that since Last Station Arc when Baam faced serious Rankers for the first time or almost all of Baam's confrontation involving full power Rankers) and tried to maintain his power as unknown, heck, even Gado said he would fight treating Baam as an enemy and used his strongest transformation against him and they were fighting evenly, Baam's only problem with Gado was his speed, he had power enough to parry his kicks, but SIU said that Baam had plot armor and because of "certain circumstances", don't you find that a little suspicious and contradictory?
You know a lot SIU has this downplay craze Baam, heck, I've never seen an author who downplay his own main character's power as SIU
And about the thing of Gado being the most fast non-Top 300 High Ranker, I think it's good to add to his profile, it should make him superior to a good amount of High Rankers
As for Canzon, I think it's best not to worry about it for now, we don't have a profile for him anyway. Also, you cannot use that of three Rankers stopping the Hell Train as a lifting strength feat for Rankers and a low-end for High Rankers like Dorian Frog
Also, I think it's better to ignore this SIU thing that Baam had plor armor when he fought Gado while using the Red Thryssa, it just seems like more of his attempts to downplay Baam (you know he's done that since Last Station Arc when Baam faced serious Rankers for the first time or almost all of Baam's confrontation involving full power Rankers) and tried to maintain his power as unknown, heck, even Gado said he would fight treating Baam as an enemy and used his strongest transformation against him and they were fighting evenly, Baam's only problem with Gado was his speed, he had power enough to parry his kicks, but SIU said that Baam had plot armor and because of "certain circumstances", don't you find that a little suspicious and contradictory?
You know a lot SIU has this downplay craze Baam, heck, I've never seen an author who downplay his own main character's power as SIU
And about the thing of Gado being the most fast non-Top 300 High Ranker, I think it's good to add to his profile, it should make him superior to a good amount of High Rankers
As for Canzon, I think it's best not to worry about it for now, we don't have a profile for him anyway. Also, you cannot use that of three Rankers stopping the Hell Train as a lifting strength feat for Rankers and a low-end for High Rankers like Dorian Frog
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I can deal with having Gado and Base Paul as that, but not Baam with Red Thyrssa.
1. Technically Bam was just blocking Gado's attacks, not parrying (which implies a counter strike, which Baam couldn't pull off)
2. I don't find it contradictory; Bam has had in-story plot armor (fate armor) before (For example- Hwaryun telling Khun that Bam wouldn't die when he went up to bargain with
3. Additionally Bam living because fate-reasons rationalizes how Bam w/ Red Thyrssa can be strong and fast enough to block Gado's attacks and even sorta-keep up with him (who's fast even by standard HR standards), yet also weak and slow enough get into a weapons exchange with Charlie, and even get hit by him.
100 Gigatons for Red Thyrssa Bam while Gado's [At least 100 Gigatons, Likely 1 Teraton] and Charlie's [At least 42 Gigatons] makes Bam strong enough to blatantly outgun Charlie and just barely survive an exchange with Gado, while also weak enough that Charlie can still somewhat fight him.
He's still repenting for making Return of the Prince Bam scratch Urek Mazino
I'm not using it (or rather 3 times it) as a low end for folk like Dorian Frog, and I don't use it as a lifting strength feat for Rankers. (Pretty sure that's not how lifting strength works anyway)
I use it as an AP feat for baselines Rankers, which I feel like makes sense considering that two of the Rankers involved in stopping the train (Water Jelly and H-14) did not even have a Rank shown in Jahad's Army, implying they stood below the present Company Commanders, which stand below Battalion Commanders, which stand below Regimental Commanders, and both of the Regimental Commanders shown are still standard Rankers.
(Technically speaking both Drak and Kallavan were Company Commanders despite being an Advanced/Super High Ranker but Drak kept sleeping on the job and Kallavan majorly failed so they both got demoted. And Yolker who's also a High Ranker is a Platoon Commander which is even lower, but he specifically stated that was because he wanted to serve under Kallavan. Generally speaking Jahad's Army is a "power based meritocracy", as someone put it.)
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in the last chapter, White outright says ¨is there a law you are not exempt from¨ damn law manip resistance was clear af
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SPOILER RAWS
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yup, one last
Bam is outright predicting White attacks, he should have Analytical precog at this point
Bam is outright predicting White attacks, he should have Analytical precog at this point
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I mean, given the sheer AP difference, it's not that surprising that Prime White is totally destroying him even in TSM w/ 1st Thorn and he's not even trying
Also @ImNot4nUser could you spoiler your first message too?
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This is gonna be fun- https://vsbattles.com/threads/calcu...-pages-of-everyone-who-scales-to-them.119754/
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@ElajRuengies
About Red Thryssa Baam, what do you think about it: High 6-C (Traded blows with Gado, but was eventually being overwhelmed and would be killed. Outmatched Season 3 Charlie), at least High 6-C, likely Low 6-B with 1st Thorn (Stronger than before. Should be equal to Gado and was a serious threat to him)
About Hell Train calc being used a Lifting Strength, I was saying that due to Hell Train's weight and the fact that three Rankers managed to stop it at high speed, you probably got what I wanted to say
About Red Thryssa Baam, what do you think about it: High 6-C (Traded blows with Gado, but was eventually being overwhelmed and would be killed. Outmatched Season 3 Charlie), at least High 6-C, likely Low 6-B with 1st Thorn (Stronger than before. Should be equal to Gado and was a serious threat to him)
About Hell Train calc being used a Lifting Strength, I was saying that due to Hell Train's weight and the fact that three Rankers managed to stop it at high speed, you probably got what I wanted to say
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Yeah that looks good, lemme edit it
I don't? I meant I can get calling it lifting strength I guess but what do you mean in the previous message when you said that it can't be used?
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I was wanting to say if the Hell Train calc can be used as a Lifting Strength feat, not the other way around, maybe my way of writing the previous message had been confusing and that's why you got the opposite
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Ooooooh, okay, (I think I can calc the deceleration of the Train and get Newtons from that so alright)
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