Touhou Thread Part 4: Youkai are Unbreakable

[Andykhang]

Also a youkai NOT running on belief would be highly impossible, or at least would be more notable than "We don't know which belief they run on" like Yukari or Yuuka.

Magician types and ghost types.
Well, thinking logicaly I suggest to split youkais into two major categories: the natural ones (born from belief) and ascended ones (that evolve somehow into youkai species).

The first ones are beings like Rumia and Yukari. The second ones are Alice and Ran.

That would only count for traditional Youkai. Touhou Youkai also included anything else that isn't god or human, like alien or angel.

 

[Yamatohime]

That would only count for traditional Youkai. Touhou Youkai also included anything else that isn't god or human, like alien or angel.

Well, we actualy can go one by one but most youkais are... Traditional ones from legends. And you forgot ghosts, hermits, Celestials, Yamas... =)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean, Beasts youkai go from Animal to Youkai via belief, while Magicians just go from Human to Youkai via idk.

 

[Andykhang]

Well, we actualy can go one by one but most youkais are... Traditional ones from legends. And you forgot ghosts, hermits, Celestials, Yamas... =)

Isn't Yama are a god too? And Celestial is both a God and a Human...

 

[DontTalk]

Something concerning Utsuho and other hell raven: "A bird born from the darkness of hell, it does not have a youkai's specific characteristics."

So it doesn't seem we can generalize any youkai properties over her, so Regenerationn should be removed from her, in my opinion.


But that made me think, aren't we actually having an undistibuted middle here?

I mean all gods are like youkai and have an uncorporal nature. And all youkai are also like youkai. But does that mean that all youkai are like gods aka have uncorporal nature?

Youkai are the "others" category as such even beings like hell ravens, that don't have youkai specific characteristics, are youkai. So saying that since gods are like youkai, youkai share attributes of gods is misinterpreting the subset relation here.

Its basically like saying that since fish are animals and fish can breath underwater, since fish are indistiguishable from animals all animals must be capable of breathing underwater, isn't it?

 

[Andykhang]

^Uh... I think "Born from the Darkness of Hell" qualifies enough to be a regenerative Youkai already, plus she's still house the divine spirit of Yatagarasu.

And true that, but that mean you leave out the traditional Youkai, which does share the same attribute such as root and the thing they eats. Leaving out the one that's true because other doesn't fit doesn't make sense.

 

[DontTalk]

I don't quite understand the second part.

About the first part: Just because you are born from your mother and at some point created from a single cell doesn't mean that you can not be killed as long as your mother exists or as long as a single cell of you remains. Basically if they are born from the darkness of hell the species itself might keep existing as long as the darkness of hell exists (since more can always be created), but for the individual it doesn't matter.

And for Yatagarasu you have to differentiate between being the shrine of the god and being the god. Even though she is the shrine of the god her nature as such might be different from the god.

The Regenerationn of the god is for her as relevant as the Regenerationn of the god of the hakurei shrine is for rebuilding the hakurei shrine when destroyed.

 

[Andykhang]

^That mean you're trying to seperate the traditional Youkai along with Touhou definition of Youkai because the others isn't related to God.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Dont

About Utsuho. It has been stated every summoning or borrowing of the power of the gods is done by the God's "Spirit", which is equal in power to the original. It would include Okuu as a "Shrine".

Also, the thing about not all youkai being gods, well the "Physical things won't work on them" Applies to ALL youkai, since this is the general description. Unless stated for a specific individual or species, it would apply.

As for God-level regen, I think that it would apply to anything born of faith. Also, where does the thing that "Individuals youkai can die but not the species" comes from?

 

[DontTalk]

Just because she lends the power of a god doesn't mean she has the attributes of it. In other words attributes don't get inherited, by summoning a god made of water you wouldn't yourself become water etc. In other words there isn't a reason to assume utsuho has god like regen just because Yatagarasu has, at most one can assume that she has similar power to yatagarasu. Touhou wiki also states that toyohime ones said that utsuho does not have the features of Yatagarasu. The quality of the vessel also matters to how well teh power a god can be brought for when summoning it (utsuho was chosen because she was more suited for channeling its powers than others).

The physical things don't work on them is to my knowledge not proven any way. As already said the part in perfect momento in strict sense only states they have a weakness against stuff with certain properties, not resistence or Regenerationn against anything with other properties. So for that I haven't seen any proof here.

You think the god level regen would apply to anything born from faith (and as already said type 8 immortality is more accurate), but you don't know. You have no statement concerning this, you just assume they inherit it. I think it is for youkai actually unlikely to have non-corporal forms, as other than gods they are not the true nature of things originally, but their original form is their corporal form.


The "species can not die" part is nothing to think about. If one says hell ravens are born from the darkness of hell one would think that they probably will just spawn again even if you kill all existing members of the species as long as the darkness remains. Its pretty much just a theory and of no relevance here.

 

[Andykhang]

"The physical things don't work on them is to my knowledge not proven any way"

Yeah, except ton of them showed that they do, like, again, Suika that litterally tear herself apart and still be fine, or Yukari's statement that stabbing, slashing or killing her would be useless, or Remilia's Regenerationn abilities.

About the God regen thing, i think there is some misunderstanding. When you said God regen in this case, what you truly mean is that they have God-like regen, because Shinto myth stated that God and Youkai came from the Kami ("God" in formless form). Only God with high level of Faith would instantly regenerate itself, just like how Youkai with high level of fear would.

Edit: And Traditional Youkai is born from the fear itself, so you can't said they don't have Non-corporeal form originally.

 

[DontTalk]

traditional youkai Ôëá youkai in touhou. You will need touhou proof.

For the rest: Regenerationn for those that have shown it or for which it applys. If a (small) sample of a set has a property it doesn't apply that the whole set has that property.

And for all cases except suika (for which it is related to her ability to manipulate density) none of this statements and feats would even be the level that is suggested here.

 

[Yamatohime]

I mean, Beasts youkai go from Animal to Youkai via belief, while Magicians just go from Human to Youkai via idk.

Nope, they don't tranform into Youkai on belief. They species exist on belief. But each individual have to ascent to this rank by some specific req. And each individual can be killed for real but species will still exist. And to transform from Human Magician to Youkai Magician you need to cast one of two spells: "abandon food" and "abandon temper".

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but like I said, gods and youkai are borderline intergenable. They both have the same way of being born and can switch from one or another if things happens. Which is why I'm saying that the non corporeality should be shared. Due to things I don't have sources atm but I will get 'em later.

Also, Yama, legit where are you getting this? Even though a nice theory I think it's a point that even individuals are hard to kill.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, without proper knowledge of species chances to kill random youkai are close to nill. But if specific knowledge can be applied your chances rise dramaticaly (sometimes turning tables in curb-stopm battle the other way). Of course you can still try to kill Ran with raw power though... But Regenerationn and general toughness can be really annoying to deal with.

P.S.: If you're Celestial... You have advantage by being the being that is... Generaly strong versus majority of youkais by default.

 

[DontTalk]

@Saikou: Pretty much everything can change to human or god. If you prey to a tree the tree will become a god and humans can easily become youkai.

Doesn't mean that before they do that their properties are similar.


The relation that gods are likey youkai is a one way implication as far as I see it. At least I have never seen a statement that say all youkai are in their nature like gods. (the opposite exists but doesn't tell us anything)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not the same. A god can go to youkai and the reverse can happen. There is also the Aki sisters who has been described as being hard to tell apart from a youkai. Some youkai claims that both are the same apparently too.

Also, just a thought, but since any incarnations or borrowing of a God's power is equal in power to said god, do you think said god's avatar would be of similar power to the god themselves too? If that's the case both Okuu and Shou would get huge upgrades.

 

[Andykhang]

@Donttalk: traditional youkai Ôëá youkai in touhou.

True that, I only want to said that the traditional one have that property.

And true about "Doesn't mean that before they do that their properties are similar." too. But the root they come, the Kami, is already spiritual and non-corporeal in begin with.

 

[Yamatohime]

Also, just a thought, but since any incarnations or borrowing of a God's power is equal in power to said god, do you think said god's avatar would be of similar power to the god themselves too? If that's the case both Okuu and Shou would get huge upgrades.

Gods have not only power but a proper skill to use power to full potent. So probably no.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't think Skill = AP. Despite being stupid af Okuu is one of the strongest youkai around, even being stated that her stupidity actually helps her controling it better.

 

[Yamatohime]

I don't think Skill = AP. Despite being stupid af Okuu is one of the strongest youkai around, even being stated that her stupidity actually helps her controling it better.

Skill means Full AP. Less waste of energy and more efficiency.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Idk, got proof for this? I mean in this case Okuu kinda clearly has control over it.

 

[Yamatohime]

Idk, got proof for this? I mean in this case Okuu kinda clearly has control over it.

I can't even find that Yatagarasu is equal to Amaterasu, the sun goddess. At best I find it somehow related to Sanzuwu.

 

[Andykhang]

^Who said it was equal though? As best these guy are only the avatar of Amaterasu herself. Still, she does do pretty good with her power to even used it in a danmaku, create sunspot, and even let it rotate down the ground , not damaging the opponent until it explode in the ground.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yatagarasu is the Avatar of Amaterasu. Here I was wondering if an avatar would be the same strength as the "Spirit" invoked by Shrine Maiden.

 

[Andykhang]

^That's like asking is a holographic projection is going to be as real as the original? And you know the answer... Well, you could spun it to ask if the representative is going to have the same strength as the board commitee, and then it become a different story.

Edit: Opps, wrong answer. This is more like asking if the sub-brand of a major company is going to beat a local one.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not that. The "Spirit" of a God is equal in power to the actual god. Thus it seems more likely that the avatar would also be. I mean pretty sure Full-Size avatar > Simple Invocation most of the times.

 

[Andykhang]

It's not that. The "Spirit" of a God is equal in power to the actual god. Thus it seems more likely that the avatar would also be. I mean pretty sure Full-Size avatar > Simple Invocation most of the times.

Sorry, wrong answer. This is more like asking if the sub-brand of a major company is going to beat a local one.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean the whole point of the god splitting themselves is to be able to do many things at once, which seems like the job of an avatar.

 

[Andykhang]

^The Avatar is just that, though. It's only showing a side presenting in a physical form. And a side < a whole.

 

[Yamatohime]

It's like saying avatar (or facet) of divinity is divinity itself. Which is not.

 

[Andykhang]

Oookay, no more talk?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Idk, I just died mid-conversation.

@Andy So you're saying a permanent avatar > A temporary spirit manifestation?

 

[Andykhang]

^I don't remember ever saying that, but i think it's right.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well I'd like to point out that I messed up and meant to say that you think that "Temporary > Permanent". Yatagarasu is a permananent avatar, so is Shou.

As I pointed it, it's canon and outright stated that the "Spirits" of a god is fully equal to the original in power.

 

[Andykhang]

^Only if they're worshipped as such. If you only think of it as an Avatar, it's not gonna happen.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Err, care to exlain further?

 

[Andykhang]

^Take Amaterasu as an example. People worship her in every place across japan, placing statue everywhere. That mean Amaterasu the goddess also "appear" in just as many place. Here the thing: Does that would mean people are going to treat her differently,is every Amaterasu the different one, is the local Amaterasu is going to be weaker than the lore one? Fk no, that's mean every statue of Amaterasu is Amaterasu herself, and every soul in that place is going to be just as strong as people all treat it the same. (Kinda like the easier-to-explain Trinity)

But there's also the case where people worship the avatar instead. The fact that people treat it as an avatar already mean that avatar itself cannot surpass the god it represent, even if the lore somehow indicate that the spirit of god reside there.