Touhou Thread 3: Electric Bangaloo: Doremy Sweet's MSS and MFTL+ Adventure, Infinite Speed Tendency and Large Planet Crusader

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yes, ANOTHER Touhou thread. We have never enough Touhou.

So, this is mostly LoLk stuff, and stuff related to the Dream World.

Let's just say 2 things about the Dream World before we all start:

1. It is an actual physical place, not just a dream place. It's just possible to visit while dreaming. Doremy even mentions that the protags are here with their physical body.

2. It seems to have only one Baku. Doremy is refered to as the "ruler" of the Dream World, and Reisen seems surprised to see someone this powerful here.

So, with that out of the way...




Doremy Sweet's job is both creating and destroying dreams. And as I've shown before, dreams are actual things, not just thought. But how "Big" is a dream? Well, it was mentioned she created a fake Lunar Capital, so likely at least Large City. But, we later see the whole moon in the Dream World, and she refers to it as the "Fake Lunar Capital", so it seems like it isn't just the city but the whole thing, so I'd be Moon level.




Buuuut, later, in the Extra Stage, we see the whole EARTH in there (And I will later show why I don't think it's the actual planet here). So Planet level.


Buuut, in the WHOLE stage, we see tons of stars. Again, I'll say later why I don't think those are just the real stars showing. If we consider everything in the Dream World would be a dream created by Doremy, it would be soldi 4-A.

Some may say this would be an Outlier, as she isn't a god tier, and even then, the god tiers doesn't possess any feats beyond 4-C.

Well..it seems like the 4-C feats the gods tier scales to COULD be MSS too. They all scales from Houryi, who was stated to have shot down the sun. However, the translation of the feat on Hecatia's profile says "Suns", which implies many of them. It is also consistant with the original Myths, in which Houryi shoots down multiple Suns.

Also, Houriy seems to have busted both a sun near the Moon and one near hell. It certainly wouldn't be the same one, and the actual sun is still here, yet more proofs that he most likely busted multiple Suns.

Yukari also possess a possible MSS feats ("Creating" constellations) but it's a very big maybe.

Now, for the speed.

In the very same stage, where there is multiple stars, the protagonist moves fast enough that the stars are actually moving.

Now, some may say they were moving from Earth to Moon, no way they would actually move past stars, or that the moon itself didn't move at all.

Well, I'd say the protags moved from Earth to Moon via a Alternate Dimension, not the actual distance. Traveling to the Moon normally isn't possible, so they had to take the path to the dream world. About the moon not moving...It IS a dream world, and it doesn't seems like it works normally (The stars behind the moon wouldn't be moving at all either if the moon isn't).

Also, the moon and earth not moving are also why I think those are creations, and not the actual things.

As why are the stars creations too? The protag were near a lake, and didn't go into outer space. They were directly teleported to the Dream World. Not only that, but it seems like the Protags' "Dreams" was to go to the Lunar Capital, or for Sanae, flying into space, explaining why stars were created in the Dream World.

So, it would be MFTL+. Scales to the protag and everyone who scales from them.

Why isn't it an Outlier? The Lightspeed thing is casual, being from a fodder. I'd say it's time to have speed feats for the Top tiers.

Now, Infinite Speed.

It may seems very weird to have Infinite Speed feats in a mostly Relat verse, but they only apply to a character using an ability.

There is Reimu, who floats out of reality. It includes space-time, as both Yukari and Sakuya can't access her during the thing (Both control Space-Time on a Multi-Universe level). This is supported by the fact that Reimu's Fantasy Nature seems like Teleportation to other. During it's duration she thus should be Infinite in speed, but only during her usge of it. Since everyone seeing it from inside reality sees it instantly.

Kaguya should also possess Infinite Speed via using her powers. It was stated she can somehow experience the "instants" of time, wheras most beings can't. Yorihime stated that the reasons why we see time flowing is because we can't percieve instants, thus, if we did, time would seems stopped to us. Only applies to reactions.

Now, for Planet level Marisa.

This was seen as an Outlier for quite some time for the following reasons:

1. She posses lower feats.

2. Top tiers such as Yukari and Suika are only Moon.

3. It would make her way too close to the God tiers in power.

Well, I would answer to this...

1. All of said feats are casual, being from Spell Cards.

2. Form another thread, no they aren't. They now solely scales from lower tiers. Even then, said feat was ALSO done casually.

3. No longer the case, with most God tiers being MSS.

Now the feats itself is pretty vague, but consider the following: She moved TWO large planets, in a single attack. To do this with a single attack (Considering the huge distance), it must require a lot of energy. Even just asusming she matched Jupiter's orbital velocity, it still would be Large Planet.

TL;DR, List of Changes:

All the LoLK cast (Including playable characters),Yukari, Suika, Yuugi, Shiki, Aya, Youmu, Kaguya, Eirin, Mokou, All Religous Leaders, Remilia, Utsuho, Flandre, Watatsukis: Massively FTL+

Reimu and Kaguya: Infninite Speed using their abilities

Marisa, Reimu, Yukari, Suika, Yuugi, Utsuho, likely Flandre, Clownpiece, likely Eirin: Large Planet level

Doremy, Sagume, Junko, Hecatia, Watatsukis, possibly Eirin, possibly Yukari, possibly Suika, possibly Yuugi: Multi-Solar System.

Now of course this is some huge changes, hence why I made this thread. Also yeah I know I made 4 upgrades inside a single thread, but I didn't want to create even more Touhou threads. Also, the first two and the last one are quite related anyway so...

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

These are some big changes, and all seems solid. No complaints here, mostly. Would comment more in a bit once I think more about this.

 

[Promestein]

Can we be sure the stars in the backdrop of the Dream World are actual stars and not just a visual effect or an illusion or something?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well in most Pocket Universes, the stars are only seen in the sky like they could be just painted here, but when the protags moves we clearly sees the stars moving independantly from each others like they are their own thing instead of just being a visual effect.

 

[Promestein]

Alright.

That being said, it feels very, very weird and wrong to have such a massive gap between the 5-A gang and non-fodder stuck in Tier 6.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, it's mostly out of lack of viable powerscaling. I'm just going with what seems obvious (Sanae > Her Goddesses, Kaguya > her rabbits) so if we can scale weakers characters to these new feats it would be good, but I just listed what was safer.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

We could technically try to scale in terms of level of power. I mean in theory the more 'playable cast' seem more experience and have more proficiency beating up other monsters. What I mean is that people like Youmu, Sanae and others should be higher in terms of DC than Cirno, Wriggle and any other Stage 1 bosses.

Or maybe it's just me trying to scale off via stages kek. But that's debatable. Better play safe anyway

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

because Yuyuko is totally weaker than Cirno-*shot*

Still annoys me to no end that Sakuya is like the only PC not MFTL+.

 

[Jiangshi1]

Still annoys me to no end that Sakuya is like the only PC not MFTL+.

Somehow I can't help but feel theres something incredibly ironic there.


Other then that, I don't see any real problems. More buffs for best hell-raven is always good

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't know if I should be pleased by another Okuu lover or if I should see it as a threat.

 

[Yamatohime]

So... I now know why Marisa can steal from Voile Lib but can't from Alice...

P.S. I will look latter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I approve of these changes wholeheartedly!

 

[HomestuckLover1]

I have nothing here to complain about or argue against, so I have no choice but to give my complete approval ; )

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Honestly this all seems pretty legit.

 

[Yamatohime]

I need to read script. Because... The traveled distance is ~500000 km. At least by description of Dream Realm.

 

[Jiangshi1]

Strange, I checked any source I can and nothing on a confirmable distance of the Dream World. Not in any stories, not in the manual, interview, or even on Doremy's bio. Even Google searched to try and see for it.

 

[Yamatohime]

It was stated that it was used to connect Earth and Moon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah the Dream World has no confirmed size, so we must go with what we can see.

Basically, we can't use the fact that it's used to travel form Earth to Moon as an argument for its size, as it wasn't BUILT for that, it was only used for this amongs other things. And again, even if the path is longer than the direct one, most people CAN'T use the direct one, hence why they would use a longer path to get to it.

Also, a corroborating feat to Marisa's Large Planet:

Toyosatomimi no Miko created a space known as "Senkai". Although it's maximum size is unknown, it seems to be large enough to hold a whole Moon inside. Note that there isn't any Sun, but a Moon.

Given that the distance between Moon and Earth is around 300 000 km, so the diamater of the place must be double of that, so 700 000~ km. Which means it's more than half the size of our Sun, which would put it in the Low 4-C departement most likely. This scales to every religious leader, and peeps who scales on them.

 

[Andykhang]

"Planet" in Marisa attack is just some giant magic ball, with flashy name stuck on it. I disapprove of this alone.

 

[DontTalk]

Ok, my opinions:

About the infinite speed:

-Kaguya: As explained in Silent Sinner in Blue instants of time are femtoseconds. So quite fast, but not actually infinite. Furthermore percieving doesn't imply reacting. A human can for example percieve in 100 ms but requires 180 ms to react (values vary per study). In other words while she may be capable of percieving them she might not be able to do any meaningful action here. Neither activating any of her abilities nor moving.

-Reimu: Not everyone from inside reality sees it as instant at all. Just look at the spellcard itself for proof. Reimu can teleport in that form which may be instant, but that doesn't imply infinite speed, else all teleporters would be infinite. Resisting timestops is timestop resistance for almost all cases. In this case I don't even know how exactly you conclude that it doesn't work on her. Timestop doesn't have an offensive use, so even if she is affected it doesn't change the fact that she would remain untouchable. Sakuyas Multi universal effect is also tied to timeline summoning stuff. Basically its a bit liek timeline travel, I doubt most of her abilities even have that kind of range.

Reimus own conciousness would also pretty much make it impossible for her to navigate at such speeds.


To Marisa: That would imply that a bunch of people are way stronger than they currently are since they scale to marisa, simply because she is a human magician. So for example vampires or patchouli. Given her standing in the rankings I still find it unrealistic, even the third time you bring this up.

Also as I mentioned before the feat is unquantifiable. We never actually see the effect happen and depending on the circumstances it can be any value. The large planet level guess is actually really just a guess it could also be accomplished with country level energy as long as its not further specified. The fact that not everything is literal is also a thing.


To the interesting part, the dream world:

The dream world is not a physical place per se. Its as said the world of dreams and dreams are physical there. Of course its for a fact correct, that someone can also enter it with a physical body, but that doesn't mean that the world as such is a normal universe or anything. Things like the ability to enter dreams physically are a thing in many fictions, and since most visiters to teh dream world are clearly not physical (quote "Astonishingly, it was a human in their physical body.) Usually it is no physical space.

Doremy Sweet herself is a very powerful entity in the dream world, but in a way the dream world is like a lower plain of existance. She can not do much against someone that isn't in the dream worlda nd people for higher plains (reailty) can enter without their actual bodys and themselfs make basically anyc hanges there and become anything (quote "If one uses the dream world skillfully, they can go anywhere and become anything at all. She watches over the place to ensure that those who realize this don't disturb the order of things.") In other words Doremy's power is large in the dream world than those of everyone else, but the dream world itself is a world where everyone can in theory have gigantic power if it weren't for Doremy stopping them. That is why I call it a lower plane of existance in a sense. (btw. Doremy calls the not dream world "physical world" s its quite obvious that we do not talk about a physical place in case of the dream world)

Summary: Doremy's power is limited to dreams and the dream world and for in the dream world I would believe she can have very high rankings, but it shouldn't scale to the amount of power people have in reality, because as said reality is a higher plane in relation to the dream world. So I wouldn't scale Doremi to other people.


To the speed:

Given that she travels through the dream world, they in other words travel through a dream (Doremi hints at a nightmare specifically).

In other words it not only is questionable wether this are real stars, but given that we talk about the dream world the fact that the moon is for example not moving is simply explained by the fact that the things are like they are dreamed to be. In other words they don't have to move that fast if the dream is they move that fast reaility will change so that that happens. So its questionable in the dream world (given that it might not be real stars or anything) and absolutely non applciable for the physical world.

 

[Aurugermil]

I am going to explain Fantasy Nature that you asked in the other thread.

Reimu's teleportation is not the same as the standard teleportation. Basically she jumps out of reality and immediately re-enters it back. Of course this still didn't fall into this site definition of Infinite Speed like you said.

The other spell card that has a semi-manifestation of her floating of reality combined with her border manipulation is Divine Spirit [Fantasy Seal -Blink] as mentioned by Marisa that only Reimu can do this and according to our perspectives, she looks like she's teleporting, but it is not something cheap like Tengu's speed or Sakuya's teleportation, yet Marisa can't explain it. but Reimu says she's only going in a straight line and she doesn't use her consciousness, so it is a subconscious things and in Fantasy Nature the danmaku she shoot will become an auto-homing towards her enemy.

I will just copy paste my old explanations about this.

According to people from narutoforums (fanon tier speculation): They discussed that Reimu's Fantasy Nature is something akin to going outside of reality all the way to last void (beyond dimension) the home of Yog Sothoth. Not just going from 3 dimension to 4 dimension or a crack between dimension or towards the other timeline/universe.

She doesn't need to shield herself since she float away from beyond the concept of reality, law of physics, multiverse or dimension.


Now according to ZUN: Zun said it is the ultimate mystery, when Reimu use this, no one can ever beat her.

Taken from Imperishable Night Last Words:

Þë▓ÒÇàÒü¿þ®ÂµÑÁÕÑÑþ¥®ÒÇéÚ£èÕñóÒü»ÒüéÒéèÒü¿ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëÕ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüìþäíµòÁÒü¿Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé

ÒééÒüùÒüôÒéîÒüîÚüèÒü│´╝êµÖéÚûôÕêÂÚÖÉõ╗ÿÒüì）ÒüºÒü¬ÒüæÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÞ¬░ÒééÕïØÒüñõ║ïÒüîÕç║µØÑÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

Supreme Master-Arts by any means. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible.

If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

Taken from various e-mailed ZUN answers from the various guy who e-mailed him:

Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÒÇîþ®║ÒéÆÚúøÒüÂþ¿ïÕ║ªÒü«Þâ¢ÕèøÒÇìÒü»µûçÕ¡ùÚÇÜÒéèÒü«ÚúøÞíîÞâ¢ÕèøÒü«õ╗ûÒü½ÒÇîõ¢òÞÇàÒü½Òééþ©øÒéëÒéîÒü¬ÒüäÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåµäÅÕæ│ÒééÕɽÒéÇÒÇé

The ability to fly means "not be tied to anything" in addition to the literal flight capability. This means that gravity, pressure, force, etc has no meaning to her. (I don't get why Zun mentioned gravity here. Probably means law of nature, since nearly every youkai or fairy can fly too)

þø©µëïÒüîÒü®ÒéôÒü¬Òü½Õ╝ÀÕñºÒüáÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒééÒÇüÕ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü«ÕëìÒüºÒü»µäÅÕæ│ÒéÆÒü¬ÒüòÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

No matter how powerful her opponents is, it does not matter to her. (Something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥Òüƒ『ÚªÖÚ£ûÕáé』ÒüºÒü»ÒÇîþë®Òü«õ¥íÕÇñÒü¿ÒüäÒü嵪éÕ┐ÁÒüîþäíÒüäÒÇìÒü¿Þ®òÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéï

Kourindo (this is either Rinnosuke or ZUN's twitter, probably the latter) said anything have no concept of value to her. (in this state, or something along that with Bing translator)

Òü¥ÒüƒÒÇüõ©Çþ¿«Òü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£ÒééÞ║½Òü½ÒüñÒüæÒüªÒüèÒéèÒÇüÞ│¢Òü«þø«ÒéÆÕñëÒüêÒéïþ¡ëÒü«þó║þÄçµôìõ¢£þ¡ëÒéÆÞíîÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéï´╝êÒüôÒéîÒü»Þç¬ÕêåÒü«µäÅÕ┐ùÒüºµôìõ¢£ÕÅ»Þâ¢）ÒÇé

Reimu herself is not well aware of this power (it is the same with moving her arms or legs). Also when she uses this, she is able to knowingly manipulate probabilty (such as changing the dice roll, etc) .

End.

Regarding the Infinite Speed, it is up for the other members, since these stuffs are author statements with lack of feats (who will seriously destroys the entire touhouverse in a danmaku battle anyway).

It is hard to discuss about Dream World since there is not enough information about it and Zun coined a new term Otherworld where places like Gensoukyo and Dreamworld are part of it.

 

[DontTalk]

"They discussed that Reimu's Fantasy Nature is something akin to going outside of reality all the way to last void (beyond dimension) the home of Yog Sothoth. Not just going from 3 dimension to 4 dimension or a crack between dimension or towards the other timeline/universe.

She doesn't need to shield herself since she float away from beyond the concept of reality, law of physics, multiverse or dimension. "

Utter speculation and wank. None of that was ever even remotely mentioned.

I always find it amazing how people take "can fly above reality" and "is invincible" and interpret it to mean all sorts of things to the very limits off what you can assume it is, without thinking they would require any specific explanation for that.

The ability is literally so bad explained except that she can teleport, is immune to normal damage and can somehow surround someone while flying in a straight line you hardly know anything about it. Everything else is complete speculation on what you imagine it is.

 

[Aurugermil]

Whoa, no need to get angry. Let's just ignore that Narutoforums fanfiction headcanon. I will leave that there for a future reminder for other people too.

Now, since there is simply not enough feats then one can only try to discern it from the meaning behind Zun's statement in Japanese words. Japanese people are discussing about it too with what its meaning supposed to be and will GER able to affect her. Hue.

 

[DontTalk]

Sorry about getting a bit annoyed there, but there was just way too much speculation about what the ability extents to for me lately.

 

[Aurugermil]

I look up on Japanese powerlevel discussion and here are their speculation using Bing Translator. Probably it won't amount much but it can give us ideas about their interpretation

ÕòÅÚíîÒü»ÒüØÒü«µ¼íÕàâÞ╗©ÒüºÒü¬õ©ïµëïÒüÖÒéïÒü¿Òé┤Òâ╝Òâ½ÒâëÒé¿Òé»Òé╣ÒâÜÒâ¬Òé¿Òâ│Òé╣Òâ¼Òé»ÒéñÒé¿ÒâáÒü┐ÒüƒÒüäÒü½µªéÕ┐Áþ│╗Òéé ... ÕÇïõ║║þÜäÒü½ÒÇüÕ࿵¼íÕàâÕêçµû¡þ│╗Òü«µèÇÒüîÕñóµâ│Õñ®þöƒõ©¡Òü«Ú£èÕñóÒü½Õ¢ôÒüƒÒéïÒü«ÒüïÒüîµ░ùÒü½Òü¬ÒéïÒü¬

The axes is a small gold experience Requiem-like concept system. Dream heaven in reimu's all dimensional cutting system personally, something comes to mind,


ÒüéÒéèÒü¿ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëµÁ«ÒüÅÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåõ║ïÒü»Õì│Òüí õ©ûþòî ( Õ«çÕ«Ö )ÒüØÒü«ÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëµÁ«ÒüäÒüƒþèµàïÒü½Òü¬Òéï Ôåô õ©ÇµÖéþÜäÒü½ µ¼íÕàâ ÒéÆ ÞÂà ÞÂèÒüùÒüƒÕ¡ÿÕ£¿Òü½Òü¬Òéï Ôåô µ¡ñ µû╣Õü┤ÒüïÒéëÒü«Õ╣▓µ©ë õ©ìÕÅ»Þ⢠Ôåô þÁÂÕ»¥ þäíµòÁ Òü┐ÒüƒÒüäÒü¬ÞºúÚçêÒüùÒüªÒüƒÒÇé

"Float from all sorts of things" that would be floated from the i.e. World (universe) Ôåô becoming a timeless dimension to the temporary Ôåô this way possible interference from the side Ôåô like absolutely unbeatable was interpreted.


Õ«çÕ«ÖÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÞ¿ÇÞæëÒü»ÒÇüÕ£░þÉâÕñû´╝êÕ«çÕ«Öþ®║Úûô）Òü«õ╗ûÒü½õ©ÇÕêçõ©çþë®ÒééµäÅÕæ│ÒüÖÒéïÒüØÒü«µäÅÕæ│ÒüºÒü«ÒÇîÕ«çÕ«ÖÒÇìÒüïÒéëµÁ«ÒüæÒü░ÒÇüµ¼íÕàâÒéäÒüØÒü«õ╗ûÕà¿ÒüªÒüïÒéëÒééµÁ«ÒüäÒüªÒüäÒéïÕ«ƒÚÜøÒü½ZUNÒüîÞ¿ÇÒüúÒüªÒéïÒü«Òü»Õ«çÕ«Öõ║æÒÇàÒüÿÒéâÒü¬ÒüÅÒÇüÒüÁÒéÅÒüÁÒéŵ╝éÒüåÒüÅÒéëÒüäÒü«ÒüôÒü¿ÒüáÒüî

The word "universe" from "space" in the sense other extraterrestrial (space) means any and all things in question floats, dimensions and is actually saying ZUN all floating from the other universe blah blah blah, not much fluffy drifts that


þ®║ÚûôÒéäµ¼íÕàâÒéƵôìõ¢£ÒüºÒüìÒéïþ│╗Òü«Þâ¢ÕèøÞÇàÒü¬ÒéëÕ»¥µèùÒüºÒüìÒüØÒüåÒüºÒü»ÒüéÒéïÒéôÒüáÒüæÒü®Òü¡ÒüÜÒâ╝Òü¿Õñóµâ│Õñ®þöƒþèµàïÒüºÕ▒àÒéïÒü¿ÒüØÒü«Òü¥Òü¥µê╗ÒüúÒüªÒüôÒéîÒü¬ÒüäµäƒÒüÿÒü½Òü¬ÒéèÒüØÒüå

I is so strong against the ability who can manipulate space and dimension of mice--and likely to feel raw back in heaven and can't back


þ®║ÚûôÒéäµ¼íÕàâÒéƵôìõ¢£ÒüºÒüìÒéïþ│╗Òü«Þâ¢ÕèøÞÇàÒü¬ÒéëÕ»¥µèùÒüºÒüìÒüØÒüåÒüºÒü»ÒüéÒéïÒéôÒüáÒüæÒü®Òü¡ÒüÜÒâ╝Òü¿Õñóµâ│Õñ®þöƒþèµàïÒüºÕ▒àÒéïÒü¿ÒüØÒü«Òü¥Òü¥µê╗ÒüúÒüªÒüôÒéîÒü¬ÒüäµäƒÒüÿÒü½Òü¬ÒéèÒüØÒüå

Mice but is otherwise up against who can manipulate space and dimension of capacity-and likely to feel raw back in heaven and return intact


ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«ÒüïÒéëµÁ«ÒüäÒüªÒéïþèµàïÒü¬Òü«Òü½ÒÇü Ú£èÕñó Òü«Õêñµû¡ÒüºÚÇöõ©¡ÞºúÚÖñÒüºÒüìÒéïÒü«Òü»þûæÕòÅÒü½µäƒÒüÿÒéï "ÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïÒééÒü«"Òü«õ©¡Òü½õ¥ïÕñûþÜäÒü½ Ú£èÕñó Òü«µäŵÇØÒü»ÕɽÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒü¬ÒüäÒü«ÒüïÒü¬´╝ƒ

Can decrypt the State removed from all sorts of things, but at the discretion of reimu way wonder "everything" in not included reimu's decision is exceptional in it?


Adding a little bit info concerning reality related to Hourai Elixir according to thwiki: it makes one an existence completely independent of even the concept of reality, thus making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt.

 

[Andykhang]

Sorry about getting a bit annoyed there, but there was just way too much speculation about what the ability extents to for me lately.

Reimu's abilities have too OP potential after all, yet she isn't showed much feat from it. The explanation that all of her battle is Spell Card battle isn't helping the argument, so people could just interprep it as ignoring even tier 0 (since tier 0 also live in their own reality), which make it suffering too much from NLF, and thus many backlash. It's truly is the ultimate mysteries in Touhou, as the implication for both side of the argument just open up more mysteries and speculation, and make us delve deeper into Touhou's mythology.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1-A Reimu.

Now I've seen everything.

 

[Andykhang]

^Truly the epitome of Touhou haxx.

Edit: Imagine it: Reimu the Blind Idiot God.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well if you don't mind ima just drop my opinions back. (Wall of text incoming)

Going to ignore the talk about Reimu's ability, because I saw "1-A Reimu" and I just kinda stopped processing informations.

So, basically your point is that:

1. Eveyrone is able to manipulate the dream world, since it's a "lesser world"

2. Doremy is OP just in her realm

Well, the Dream World being a lesser world would be speculation, as it seems to be treated as equal to other realms, such as having its own hell and being compared to the Moon and Earth quite a lot.

Also, it's not like being able to access a realm through a dream or creating things with your mind is limited to the Dream World: Both Gensokyo and the Moon act that way.

Just for example: Most Gods and Youkai are created via the shared fear of a population.

And in those place, when someone "dreams their way" there, they are simply an avatar, a shadow, who possess very limited interactions with the world there.

Doremy states that the humans are here "physically", hinting that humans are there via dreaming normally. And Doremy's Jobs is to create and destroy said dreams. So either, the humans creates dreams the same way youkai are created, or Doremy just creates them. Either way, they are physical and would scale to normal AP instead of just being illusions.

As for Doremy (And others being) being capable of manipulating the dream world, due to it being "lesser"? Well, if Doremy was truly much more OP than outside the world via being inside the Dream World, she wouldn't have to feel threatened. Remember, Sagume holds some kind of authority over Doremy, forcing her to acts up to her plans despite the latter's grudge against the moon people. And what about Junko and Hecatia fightning normally there, no change in power or anything, they just fight normally.

Again, if Doremy was truly 4-A inside the Dream World while everyone was normal there, they wouldn't need to have back up from Hecatia, nor would she need to fear the Lunarians. And again, it was never hinted at everyone suddenly being able to manipulates the surrounding upon entering the realm, and it seems like it isn't "inferior" to the other realms or anything.

As for the speed, every dreams seems to be made to act fully functional instead of being just here to complete the look, such as the Fake Moon replacing the Moon to the point of fooling the lunarians. Not only that, but the stars looks fairly 3D instead of just being background decorations. There is no reasons to think they are just fakes.

In addition, none of the characters seems fazed in anyway to moving at such high speeds, except Sanae being way too hyped about being in space.

Now for Marisa's Planet

Seems quite unfair to not add the feats, just from being someone weaker than the rest (Who isn't even that weak tbh), espcially as it doesn't directly contradicts previous feats. Again, Miko also possess a similar leve feats, and is stronger than Marisa. And there is a somewhat legit reasons for a weaker character showing better feats. Most of the strongests characters are old, and prefers Scheming to attacking directly. Wheras Marisa is all about power and Flashiness. So her having a more impressive-looking attack would make sense.

About the feat being unquantifiable, while it's true that Country level power could move a planet, a Wall level attack could also destroy a building, but it's waaay more likely to be a Building level feat. Same for this one tbh. Pretty sure any authors talking about Planets moving would mean that the movement was big enough to be seen on the planet as a whole, and not just a few meters. It is also to take into account that moving a planet in most directions would most likely require to match it's orbital speed, which would be large planet.

Also, just wanting to know, when was the Femtosecond thing said? Like chapter and/or page?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Going to ignore the talk about Reimu's ability, because I saw "1-A Reimu" and I just kinda stopped processing informations.

Literally the only reasonable response.

 

[Promestein]

Also, if Senkai contains a moon, Miko and the religious leaders should probably be upgraded based on that.

 

[Yamatohime]

As far as I understood:

Dream World was created sometime ago and used by Lunarians as methode to transport thier people from Earth to Moon. Interesting part of Reisen script is that she hints that we jump into corridor that connect Earth and Moon => set distance.

The second part is Reisen words can be translated that Baku (not Doremy) is the most dangerous Youkai of the Dream World. As far as I concerned Baku can create illusions that looks like truth inside Dream World... But nothing indicates otherwise.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

These illusions are real enough to hurt people and be able to replace the real world apparently.

 

[Yamatohime]

These illusions are real enough to hurt people and be able to replace the real world apparently.

Not really. We actualy didn't see large scale illusions that hurt and danmaku powers still hurt (and are not illusions).

P.S.: You can be fooled by mind and be hurt IRL with illusions.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

But PHYSICALLY hurting you? Not really.

 

[Yamatohime]

So all I see in the scripts (as currently) is that Baku created False Lunar Capital. Other things were already created (basicaly it seems Dream World mirrors Real World and some kind of AU).

But PHYSICALLY hurting you? Not really.

Possible.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not..really. Illusions only affects the mind.

The Dream World that was created in LolK as based on the Protag's dreams, which is the reasons why there are stars all around, so it couldn't have been there from the start.

 

[Yamatohime]

Not..really. Illusions only affects the mind.
The Dream World that was created in LolK as based on the Protag's dreams, which is the reasons why there are stars all around, so it couldn't have been there from the start.

Actualy not. As far as I remember... The seven colored daughter of AU Goddess is a drug addict. It was mentioned that Dream World is Another Reality (in other words it doesn't created from the scratch).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure one can create Another Reality from scratch. Even then, the stars were made FOR the Protag in this case.

 

[Yamatohime]

Pretty sure one can create Another Reality from scratch. Even then, the stars were made FOR the Protag in this case.

Yeah, yeah... Eirin Pills allow it too than. MSS pills! Yay!