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But the Otherworld is world that's made up of the strings, and has been stated to be Brane Worlds, which should mean that Otherworld are H1-C.
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Touhou: Into the Multiverse
- Thread starter OnsokunoSonic
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Also, can I ask what's your opinion on the probability layer?
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Oh. My apologies then.
I was under the impression that this was the case. Sorry if I was derailing or confusing you then.
I'll just let Onsokuno handle this.
Guardian_Doge
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Mokou asked me to send this.
“Okay, last proxied response for real this time.
Ogbunabali seems confused on exactly what an Otherworld is; it's not a single location, but rather an umbrella term for anything that exists outside the Earth and Moon. The Netherworld, Hell, and every other cosmologically significant location is an Otherworld.
With that out of the way, let's get into the Dream World itself. First off, the Dream World doesn't scale solely to the Netherworld or just any one Otherworld; rather it is superior to the entire cosmology (minus itself and the memory layer). It's even been shown to recreate the outside world, which is where the existence of the 10D brane cosmology was proven to begin with, and even this is just an infinitely small part of the Dream World as a whole. This panel from chapter 29 of WaHH demonstrates that there is a layer of reality-fiction transcendence between the Dream World and the physical layer, as the Dream World is superior to the extent that it 'controls' the physical layer. Since the physical layer is quite blatantly 10D, this makes the Dream World 11D by default. That, and the Dream World contains recreations of the entire cosmology within itself, as demonstrated in chapter 33 of CoLA where its stated that "the Dream World and reality are two sides of the same coin".
Onto the scaling, I've always been iffy about scaling Doremy to H1-C based on her residence being within the Dream World. However, her ability allows her to create and destroy dreams, as well as utilize them in combat, and dreams are repeatedly stated to be equal to reality. Therefore, whenever a dream is created or destroyed, it is in fact creating or destroying a 10D 'reality' along with it. So scaling everyone to H1-C off of Doremy is still valid (Yukari also has a dream creation feat of her own).
We of course also have the primordial gods, who scale to the entire cosmology by virtue of creating it. We also have numerous statements that Yukari's ability is comparable to said gods and can fundamentally undermine all of reality, scaling her to the entire cosmology as well. Reimu should arguably get this scaling as well, as Okina heavily implies her ability is similar to Yukari's.
TL;DR: The Dream World does in fact exist 'above' the physical layer in a qualitatively superior fashion, H1-C scaling is still valid, and if the memory layer is still 1-B via existing above the Dream World, then primordial gods should be 1-B, and Yukari and Reimu would be 1-B via hax.
Also @Mobi2 I'm pretty sure the geography of Gensokyo sections in SCoOW are non-canon and just speculative, but the Netherworld is an Otherworld regardless.
Take care everyone. I hope I won't have to keep making proxy responses, but hopefully this clears up a lot of confusion.”
“Okay, last proxied response for real this time.
Ogbunabali seems confused on exactly what an Otherworld is; it's not a single location, but rather an umbrella term for anything that exists outside the Earth and Moon. The Netherworld, Hell, and every other cosmologically significant location is an Otherworld.
With that out of the way, let's get into the Dream World itself. First off, the Dream World doesn't scale solely to the Netherworld or just any one Otherworld; rather it is superior to the entire cosmology (minus itself and the memory layer). It's even been shown to recreate the outside world, which is where the existence of the 10D brane cosmology was proven to begin with, and even this is just an infinitely small part of the Dream World as a whole. This panel from chapter 29 of WaHH demonstrates that there is a layer of reality-fiction transcendence between the Dream World and the physical layer, as the Dream World is superior to the extent that it 'controls' the physical layer. Since the physical layer is quite blatantly 10D, this makes the Dream World 11D by default. That, and the Dream World contains recreations of the entire cosmology within itself, as demonstrated in chapter 33 of CoLA where its stated that "the Dream World and reality are two sides of the same coin".
Onto the scaling, I've always been iffy about scaling Doremy to H1-C based on her residence being within the Dream World. However, her ability allows her to create and destroy dreams, as well as utilize them in combat, and dreams are repeatedly stated to be equal to reality. Therefore, whenever a dream is created or destroyed, it is in fact creating or destroying a 10D 'reality' along with it. So scaling everyone to H1-C off of Doremy is still valid (Yukari also has a dream creation feat of her own).
We of course also have the primordial gods, who scale to the entire cosmology by virtue of creating it. We also have numerous statements that Yukari's ability is comparable to said gods and can fundamentally undermine all of reality, scaling her to the entire cosmology as well. Reimu should arguably get this scaling as well, as Okina heavily implies her ability is similar to Yukari's.
TL;DR: The Dream World does in fact exist 'above' the physical layer in a qualitatively superior fashion, H1-C scaling is still valid, and if the memory layer is still 1-B via existing above the Dream World, then primordial gods should be 1-B, and Yukari and Reimu would be 1-B via hax.
Take care everyone. I hope I won't have to keep making proxy responses, but hopefully this clears up a lot of confusion.”
ShinyMagicalGirl
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I hope Mokou's doing fine. I assume she has her reasons for doing proxy responses.
Anyways thanks for that Doge, that does clear things up.
Anyways thanks for that Doge, that does clear things up.
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Again, no.
Otherworld is just a single universe as indicated above in the scan Shmooply provided. A single brane is just Low 2-C (as a default), the whole mulstiversal structure in which the branes are (the bulk) is High 1-C.
Unless you have evidence to suggest that the single brane talked about here is anything higher than Low 2-C, or some contradictory information that Otherworld is actually the whole multiverse and not indicating a single universe.
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- Thread starter
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What's stopping a single universe to have a 10th Dimensional structure?
The "Bulk" here is Physical Layer amirite? Since the Otherworld exist on the Physical Layer.
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This is false, as it's ignoring the greater quote which is
An Otherworld, as indicated by this scan, is a single universe.I am here to save the daaaay~
From this interview with ZUN:
The blanket statement of "anything outside the Earth and the Moon" on this wiki would only net you 3-A anyway.
Scans?
That is not what the scan implies. They just said dreamed of a place similar to the people. This wouldn't even qualify for building level if taken seriously like this.
And for the 100th time, this is not how branes work. Stop using this justification. A single baseline 3-brane != the whole High 1-C bulk.
I fail to see how this scan indicates any of what you just said.
Again, not how it works.
This is the only scan in this entire discussion which indicates anything close to what's being claimed here. Unfortunately insufficient evidence on its own, and would only service as a supporting statement.
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Reasonable assumptions, common sense, and this site's standards of providing evidence to prove it.
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- Thread starter
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Wait a minute, I want to ask something, what's the cosmology in your mind?
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What's in "my mind" doesn't matter, the claims about how the cosmology works are not supported by the evidence provided.
And the knowledge of how brane cosmology works is not very high in general.
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sigh
Can someone tag Ultima here? I think we should at least try to get him here.
Can someone tag Ultima here? I think we should at least try to get him here.
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Normal members can't tag people. Sorry.
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Thank You.
Guardian_Doge
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Ok soooo gonna do another one of mokou's replies then put my own thoughts because I do think the brane's itself are not high 1-C.
First mokou:
Wow, guess I do need to proxy again.
And now me:
First mokou:
Wow, guess I do need to proxy again.
Except we have direct confirmation that the Netherworld is larger than the infinitely-sized Hell. How exactly is that 3-A? And besides, all I was trying to prove here is that the Netherworld is an Otherworld, which you initially asked for evidence on.
...The scans are literally provided mere sentences later. I don't know why you're asking this.
A significant portion of this CRT is reliant on how the Dream World does in fact contain 1-to-1 recreations of the locations shown inside it; you're just ignoring the numerous statements very explicitly stating that dreams = reality. The Dream World does not create limited 'subsections' of locations; otherwise, those 'dreams = reality' statements would mean absolutely nothing.
How is this wrong? The Dream World contains a 10-dimensional cosmology within itself as only a small section. It can't be lower than the High 1-C bulk when the bulk literally exists inside it.
"Reality is being controlled by the Dream World" is a pretty blatant statement of DW > Reality. If the Dream World were qualitatively inferior to reality, it wouldn't be able to 'control' anything.
We have 2 experts on higher dimensional tiering agreeing to this; you need to have some very good evidence that a string + brane cosmology under the theory of everything is anything less than 10D, and I have yet to see that evidence.
And yet you continue to ignore the 2 other scans provided that argue the exact same thing. You're acting like this is the sole piece of evidence for dreams equaling reality but that's just blatantly false.
And now me:
I can agree with this, in that regard a small thing to note for this is a brane like Hell, is infinitely larger than a place like Gensokyo which is also a brane (infinitely small in comparison), so Hell being able to treat a 4-D structure as finite (since it'd be infinitesimal) in comparison can be a qualification for a higher dimension I recall? So yeah definitely am not in favor of individual High 1-C Brane's. But I do initially agree that The Dream World should scale to the 10-D cosmology (be 11-D) because it IS the mental layer (the kanji of the scan here states that it is an entire different state of being as a supportive factor of being a different plane.) which is above the physical layer (which is the 10-D multiverse we're talking about here).
ShinyMagicalGirl
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I say we should wait for Ultima to help sort this out imo
They're really knowledgeable with H1-C stuff after all
I just don't want Ultima to come into the thread and be overwhelmed by so many messages, like how the older Touhou threads got so jam-packed so the mods lost track of what's the important arguments.
They're really knowledgeable with H1-C stuff after all
I just don't want Ultima to come into the thread and be overwhelmed by so many messages, like how the older Touhou threads got so jam-packed so the mods lost track of what's the important arguments.
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None of the scans provided actually showed anything close to what's stated here.
And not a single evidence was provided on this being how it works.
The only scan that comes remotely close to this is some random person saying that they remembering seeing a similar person once. And the coin one, which as I said before is fine but would only function as a supporting scan. It's not enough on its own.
Not a single scan provided here, shows that.
That's an extremely blank statement that could mean literally anything. Not to mention even at face value "controlling" is not a reality-fiction transcendence in any capacity.
Not to mention the person is just speculating there, and I'd like to see the full context on top of that as well.
Don't particularly care what anyone else said. Your statements are factually not supported by your claims.
And it seems like you're confused. We're not talking about whether the High 1-C is valid or not, but whether it the dream world scales to/above it.
It's just says "infinite" not infinitely large.
I'd like a link to that full text.
Could be. And it'd be Low 1-C at best, not High 1-C.
Means nothing.
Again, being different does not mean ontologically/qualitatively superior.
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You're all unbearable. Sheesh. About nothing here is right.
I'm not a math person but fairly sure you need a lot more proof than that. Even if that were true, it would only mean the multiverse itself is 11-D. Certainly not individual branes worlds. This scales to no one.
Utterly braindead. The Dream World is an Otherworld. It's a Brane World. It's just a 4-D space, like Gensokyo, Hell or whatever are. It is absolutely not a world that transcends the real world. The scan about it affecting the real world absolutely does not prove anything. The Dream World affects the real world indirectly, like through the effects of nightmare. It does not transcend it.
Baseless. Obviously the mental layer would be unaffected by physical stuff. That's just how it works. It doesn't mean there is an entire layer of reality transcending the physical. There is nothing indicating that at all.
Considering what I said, the only thing that could even remotely be considered Tier 1 is the multiverse itself. Yukari has no reasons to scale to it. We shouldn't assume the boundaries she controls should apply to this higher dimensional structure. Akyuu's statement of her power reducing everything to one solid object would still apply without scaling to Tier 1.
Reimu only scales to other people through Fantasy Nature. So if no one is Tier 1, her ability is not Tier 1.
Same issue as Yukari. They only gave names to things, separating them from the big great whole. The Tier 1 structure doesn't have to be included in that. There is no reasons to assume that they created it.
I'm not a math person but fairly sure you need a lot more proof than that. Even if that were true, it would only mean the multiverse itself is 11-D. Certainly not individual branes worlds. This scales to no one.
Utterly braindead. The Dream World is an Otherworld. It's a Brane World. It's just a 4-D space, like Gensokyo, Hell or whatever are. It is absolutely not a world that transcends the real world. The scan about it affecting the real world absolutely does not prove anything. The Dream World affects the real world indirectly, like through the effects of nightmare. It does not transcend it.
Baseless. Obviously the mental layer would be unaffected by physical stuff. That's just how it works. It doesn't mean there is an entire layer of reality transcending the physical. There is nothing indicating that at all.
Considering what I said, the only thing that could even remotely be considered Tier 1 is the multiverse itself. Yukari has no reasons to scale to it. We shouldn't assume the boundaries she controls should apply to this higher dimensional structure. Akyuu's statement of her power reducing everything to one solid object would still apply without scaling to Tier 1.
Reimu only scales to other people through Fantasy Nature. So if no one is Tier 1, her ability is not Tier 1.
Same issue as Yukari. They only gave names to things, separating them from the big great whole. The Tier 1 structure doesn't have to be included in that. There is no reasons to assume that they created it.
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If this is true, then this whole discussion has been a waste of time.
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Dehek. So it was all misinterpretation of thread starter? I don't really follow Tohou, well if that's the case then ratings for Brane World and Dream World is 4D. It's kinda make sense thought, since they depicts Brane Worlds as a multiverse. If that's right, then Probability Layer would be 5D atbest (I can recall that the thread starter said Probability Layer beyond any of otherworld and dream-world also it has everything within it).
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Being outside the scope of something doesn't mean you transcend it. You people really need to stop acting like those layers are actual, physical layers of reality as opposed to simply different aspects of reality with different priorities.
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Indeed. Sometime some authors intend to make it same in a general context.
Well fine I guess since I'm not a supporters nor do an oppositions.
Dang, sad for you man @OnsokunoSonic
ShinyMagicalGirl
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Also I'd bitch about the fact you guys somehow managed to slap infinite speed on everyone but that's not the subject of the thread.
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Contextually think of the three layers like peanut butter and jelly they just basically mix together in between the slices of bread.
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inhales.
One question. I had this question in my mind since a good long while, and I believe at least you can answer to this.
If the cosmology itself is scaling up to Tier 1, why exactly Primordial Gods do not? Seperation of this 'singular object', which you say is not really a feat, does include boundaries of dimensions (Likewise 2-D / 3D), existential ones (Like red / white), ones that refer to Quantum Fluctuations (particle / wave), etc.
There were no mentions of this Singular Object being a Multiverse by default. There were no mentions of this Singular Object being infinite, either. Primordial Gods did give names, and shaped the carvings of this Multiverse's cosmology, then what's stopping them from being superior to what they created?
I'm genuinely confused at that.
Mr. Bambu
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I believe you were told to not enter these CRTs, Fujiwara. You've been allowed to pass scans along through others. This is your final warning. If I catch wind of something like this again, regardless of the severity, you will be banned.Sources for the relevant scans, as requested. This may go against my topic ban, but this isn't exactly something that can be proxied over Discord, and its not like I'm debating anything here.
Changeability of Strange Dream.
Everything here is from Dr. Latency's Freak Report.
Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom, Reisen's scenario.
All the layer stuff comes from chapter 27 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia.
One of ZUN's replies to the former Gensou Bulletin Board.
Scans were already provided for the Netherworld being larger than Hell, the Netherworld showing up in the Dream World, and dreams being fundamentally connected at the deepest level so I don't need to do anything there.
Wild and Horned Hermit, chapter 29 (cannot provide a link since this site blocks out m a n g a d e x, so just look it up for yourself)
Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 33.
An interview on Antinomy of Common Flowers.
Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Yukari's section.
ZUN's comments on Reimu's Fantasy Nature in Imperishable Night.
That should cover everything. Take care everyone, and good luck with the upgrades.
Apologies for the intrusion, all. Carry on.
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It's just an issue of NLF. Boundaries between Otherworlds are something we know for a fact exists and can be manipulated by people like Yukari. So we can assume Primordial Gods created those realities (or at least the distinction between them). But anything more would be extrapolation. Those kind of powers are super easy to wank by assuming they work on stuff they have never shown working on.
In this case we know the content of the multiverse (the Otherworlds, the Earth, etc.) were indeed created by the Primordial Gods. But not the 11-D structure that holds those worlds.
Yes, you could easily imagine that they separated the rest of reality from this greater 11-D structure. But you could also easily imagine that the one big singular object was always inside the 11-D structure and this object was split into the Otherworlds we know. We shouldn't go with the former interpretation without sufficient proof of it.
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After a lot out of sync in this thread, I thought about making a summary. So as far as I get there are 4 opinions regarding this CRT. I will sort these 4 opinions from the most relevant to the most surprising. Namely:
1. H1C to 1B: The opinion is consistent with the thread starter's proposal that the cosmology of Tohou is at least 10 dimensions due to the existence of the Brane World they believe in according to String Theory (which requires 10 dimensions to operate). And there is the existence of a Dream World that reaches the Otherworld (Brane World) as "finite" on an "infinite" scale to 11D and after that there is a Probability Layer that surpasses all of that making it 12D.
2. H1C: Opinion from @Ogbunabali who approves the proposal of Brane World there which is at least 10D to operate but rejects Dream World as a higher dimension than Otherworld (Brane World).
3. L1C to 1C: My disagreement on proposal where the mention of Brane World is can't be automatically considered to have 10 dimensions to operate for the reason "fiction doesn't follow the principles of the real-world in exact, and Tohou doesn't explain it explicitly" so it would be unwise to generalize the way that Gurren Laggan does (because Gurren Laggan actually says that their dimensions are the membranes of the 10th and 11th dimensions). And I give another solution that makes their minimum tier is 5D (I included Einstein's calculations about the stability of Brane Cosmology in the fifth dimension) to 7D (Probability Layer 7D > Dream World 6D > Otherworld 5D).
4. 2A (?) : The opinion of @Saikou_The_Lewd_King as a knowledgeable member of this verse that Brane World only acts like a regular 4D world (the reason that could support this is because otherworld is can be considered as an another term for "multiverse") and Dream World is just another form of "Otherworld" where the Dream World has an Infinite area that can accommodate other Otherworlds to be "finite" then I safely conclude that the tier of this cosmology is 2A. Regarding the Probability Layer, he also said that it was simply "another aspect" of reality.
Dang, it's crazy to such thread making these diversity.
1. H1C to 1B: The opinion is consistent with the thread starter's proposal that the cosmology of Tohou is at least 10 dimensions due to the existence of the Brane World they believe in according to String Theory (which requires 10 dimensions to operate). And there is the existence of a Dream World that reaches the Otherworld (Brane World) as "finite" on an "infinite" scale to 11D and after that there is a Probability Layer that surpasses all of that making it 12D.
2. H1C: Opinion from @Ogbunabali who approves the proposal of Brane World there which is at least 10D to operate but rejects Dream World as a higher dimension than Otherworld (Brane World).
3. L1C to 1C: My disagreement on proposal where the mention of Brane World is can't be automatically considered to have 10 dimensions to operate for the reason "fiction doesn't follow the principles of the real-world in exact, and Tohou doesn't explain it explicitly" so it would be unwise to generalize the way that Gurren Laggan does (because Gurren Laggan actually says that their dimensions are the membranes of the 10th and 11th dimensions). And I give another solution that makes their minimum tier is 5D (I included Einstein's calculations about the stability of Brane Cosmology in the fifth dimension) to 7D (Probability Layer 7D > Dream World 6D > Otherworld 5D).
4. 2A (?) : The opinion of @Saikou_The_Lewd_King as a knowledgeable member of this verse that Brane World only acts like a regular 4D world (the reason that could support this is because otherworld is can be considered as an another term for "multiverse") and Dream World is just another form of "Otherworld" where the Dream World has an Infinite area that can accommodate other Otherworlds to be "finite" then I safely conclude that the tier of this cosmology is 2A. Regarding the Probability Layer, he also said that it was simply "another aspect" of reality.
Dang, it's crazy to such thread making these diversity.
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Uh the Cosmology should probably be 2-B at best. Individual worlds are infinite but there are no infinite universes. Hecatia's statement is simply saying there could be infinite universes. Not that there are.
Also I'd like to mention that people being Tier 1 off scaling Yukari would be an outlier. We have tons of High 3-A and Low 2-C feats on our hands. That's why people scale to it. But scaling the top tier of Gensokyo and the entire Lunarian god tiers to Tier 1 based off a single feat would be bad.
Also I'd like to mention that people being Tier 1 off scaling Yukari would be an outlier. We have tons of High 3-A and Low 2-C feats on our hands. That's why people scale to it. But scaling the top tier of Gensokyo and the entire Lunarian god tiers to Tier 1 based off a single feat would be bad.
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I interpreted the statement as hell being able to contain infinite otherworlds. Or was it that overtime its able to add more otherworlds because of its expansion?
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Im not gonna debate here. But the dream world scan in the ops deffo out of context. This is the full context https://chap.manganelo.com/manga-dg91526/chapter-29
Basically its them talking about how trynna fight your dreams theyll just persist and it just indirectly messes up peoples sleep pattern and lifestyle. Got nothing to do with transcendance or anything.
Basically its them talking about how trynna fight your dreams theyll just persist and it just indirectly messes up peoples sleep pattern and lifestyle. Got nothing to do with transcendance or anything.
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Hmm. Well, what I meant to ask was the confusement regarding the 'Singular/Mixed Object' being either Infinite enough to hold several infinite "Otherworlds" in and is 11-D by default -before Primordial Gods did their work- or not (Where it would only be treated as 'Low 2-C' at best by wiki standards, if Gods were not to shape it into existence and give this Multiverse to us).
"When naming a thing, a new border is created that gives this one thing its own recognition. You could say that the power of naming is the power to bring forth something from nothingness", it is compared to creation feat there, unless I am mistaken or misinterpretating things?
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There are no Otherworlds inside Hell. Hell is an Otherworld too, it can't contain others.
The statement is weird but I'd say it's just that there could be infinite Otherworlds connected to Hecatia's hell. Which doesn't really mean much, considering how Hell is already infinite.
You can be capable of holding many Otherworlds without being 11-D though. You'd just be 4-D but bigger.
Also yes it is compared to creating from nothingness. But it's not the same. It's just saying that something without recognition might as well be nothing, since you can't identity it as something in specific. Just a nameless, identity-less blob of thing.
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Thanks.
And comphrending this:
Yep this thread has a very big misinterpretation I guess. Neutral now but leaning to disagree and I guess it much better to take 2B as Saikou said.
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I don't think that it's just hecatia's hell since every otherworld does have its own version of hell it was from hecatia's profile in LoLK iirc.
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Yeah but apparently one of her Hell covers all Otherworlds at once. One Hell for Earth, one Hell for the Moon, and one Hell for Otherworlds in general.
"A mysterious god who governs the Hells of the moon, the Earth, and Otherworlds. She has a separate body in each of the three worlds, and can act independently with each of them."
-Hecatia's LoLK profile.
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