Touhou: Into the Multiverse

[OnsokunoSonic]

"As a finite size of it" isn't really supported? Like, you'd need to prove that the Dream World is infinite, yet that the Netherworld is a finite part of this infinite. Afaik that's what required for anything like that to be higher dimensional. And that's not really the case. We just know the Dream World can contain an infinite structure and has room to spare. But that just means the Dream World is infinite.

The proof is based on Brane Cosmology, the "bulk" is the Dream World, in this wiki, this "bulk" is assumed to be infinite in size.

Also, the river being the "bulk" is... very arguable. It seems to me just like a poetic metaphor from Maribel. But even if it was referring to the bulk, we still don't really know what it is, what it is properties are, etc. And it's never mentioned in any lore talking about the Primordial Gods or (cutted)

It's hinting towards the theory though, and then we can assume that it's basically the same as the bulk.

After that the entire argument of OP was his own personal interpretation by cherrypicking words like: world beyond, layer, conceptually separated, can be perceived, etc....and interpreted them working like brane cosmology and string theory.

Viethai, why did you respond to this after Saik and the others respond? Could it be that...yeah I'm not gonna say it.

 

[Vietthai96]

The proof is based on Brane Cosmology, the "bulk" is the Dream World, in this wiki, this "bulk" is assumed to be infinite in size.



It's hinting towards the theory though, and then we can assume that it's basically the same as the bulk.



Viethai, why did you respond to this after Saik and the others respond? Could it be that...yeah I'm not gonna say it.

1. No, why we should assume it true, if you can assume it is true then i can also assume it is false, we don't give tier because assumption
2. Again, what with all these assumption, we don't assume things, your side need to provide actual, solid proofs on how the cosmology work, its hierachy, etc..., why it align with String Theory and Brane Cosmology model
3. And???, i comment after him, so you assume that i'm on the same league as him, helping him, which mean i'm bias against Touhou; or i'm his sock puppet account, clone, or everything you can think of in your mind. Thus my argument is invalid???, what kind of counter argument is that

 

[PrinceofPein]

Are we gonna ignore that Dream World contain infinite sized Netherworld as a finite size of it?

A space big enough to contain another infinite space is just High 3A but it depends on context maybe there is more but with your statement it is just H3A
For the dream world to be higher D the netherworld will have to be the smaller than the smallest particle in the dream world or something like that

 

[Pixy]

Uh..... Everyone pls chill down a bit
I don't wanna see this thread be messy like how it's happen in Up and Down

 

[Lormac_CC]

The thread started peacefully, they asked for a mod and got a mod then hell broke lose

 

[Lormac_CC]

Well still neutral, I stop commenting because wasn't knowledgeable on the verse

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I was neutral for all the time but i'll be honest, from the start i was iffy about tier 1 Touhou and seeing the current arguments so far i'm now learning towards against the upgrade so yeah, no agreement from me

 

[Pixy]

Mine is disagree against H1-C due to Einel and a lot of stuff that give a reason why it's not H1-C

But I'm still interest in L1-C and 1-C
So... Hope it might work and don't ask me why I'm really bad at science and still confuse how tier 1 work

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm not particullary sure about 1-C/Low 1-C will be accepted, guess we'll find out

 

[Greatsage13th]

Neutral

 

[Vietthai96]

But I'm still interest in L1-C and 1-C
So... Hope it might work and don't ask me why I'm really bad at science and still confuse how tier 1 work

Actually tier 1 from Low 1-C to Low 1-A is not that hard if the verse established a good cosmology structure, like DC or Marvel, etc....This thing is confuse because the verse vaguely use real life theories

 

[Pixy]

Actually tier 1 from Low 1-C to Low 1-A is not that hard if the verse established a good cosmology structure, like DC or Marvel, etc....This thing is confuse because the verse vaguely use real life theories

Not that hard ? Really !?

Also another problem in 2hu verse is.... language
There a lot of ZUN's interview that still don't translate yet in the wiki
They do exist but only Japanese Language so no one can read it

Like in Violet Detector that take place for entire game in dream world but it's interview still doesn't translate yet so I'm not sure if once day VD's interview get full translate maybe we can find something useful but I'm really sure those interview will not get translate in this year or even next year

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou and Ogbunabali make sense to me above. Thank you for helping out.

So has everything suggested in this thread been thoroughly rejected, or is there anything that we should apply?

Also, what should we do about the infinite speed statistics?

 

[Antvasima]

In addition, do we need to modify our tiering system instruction pages to avoid that similar misunderstandings happen in the future?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Infinite speed has already been accepted by Prom and the mods in the previous thread, that doesn’t need to change at all.

 

[Shmooply]

If Saikou wants to remove the infinite speed rating, then he should make an entirely separate CRT for it. This CRT is long enough as is, and nobody wants to argue for another five pages on the speed stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem then.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I will make a response later today because my schedule filled up for no reason, explaining why low 1-C for the dream world like Ogbuna had initially suggested should still be valid, because I don’t consider “it just isn’t transcendental“ as a refute especially when it’s the same thing thats been said for a couple years.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Doge comes in to save day like I expected, although only L1-C and not H1-C but still great

You’re doing the Touhou fans of this forum a service, Doge.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I will make a response later today because my schedule filled up for no reason, explaining why low 1-C for the dream world like Ogbuna had initially suggested should still be valid, because I don’t consider “it just isn’t transcendental“ as a refute especially when it’s the same thing thats been said for a couple years.

I'd give more of a refute if good arguments existed. But they don't. Every single things brought up in the OP is wrong.

"The Dream World is called a mental world."

But the Dream World itself is physical like I brought up countless times. People going inside that world can get hurt physically. Stuff brought from the Dream World can interact with others normally as well. It's not part of the "Mental Layer" described elsewhere.

"The Mental Layer transcends the Physical Layer"

Nothing indicates that. The world being divided into layers does not mean each layer transcends each other. Especially not in this case. This simply indicates that non-physical, mental effects aren't affected by the laws of physics and that they're able to affect the physical world to some degree. That's no different than any other cases of mental entities existing in other verses, it's just described differently.

"The Dream World controls reality"

An utterly out of context statement. Nevermind the fact that affecting reality doesn't mean you exist on a higher plane, the dream world's effects on reality simply refer to nightmares or other indirect effects. You will be affected by what you dream about. That's what it is about. That doesn't mean the Dream World controls all of physical reality.

"The Dream World exists beyond the physical world"

That's probably the worst argument out of the bunch. Again, nevermind the fact that "beyond" means "further than" and not anything relating to transcendence by default, Maribel's statement refers to Otherworlds in general. She is literally only talking about how Otherworlds like Gensokyo, Hell, the Dream World, Heaven, etc., exist outside of the normal world. Nothing at all about transcendence. In fact in that entire story moment, she talks mainly about Gensokyo. Are you all implying that Gensokyo, including every single fairy and youkai inside of it, transcends the physical world simply because Maribel says Gensokyo is outside of Earth's world? I sure hope not.

Reading anything about this scan other than the quoted dialogue would reveal how wrong this is. How was this even remotely taken seriously?

"The Dream World contains the Infinite Netherworld"

That is true, yes. But that's already taken into account on the profiles. It just means each individual dreams in the Netherworld can be infinite. But like I said before, this can only result in Low 1-C or whatever if you think the Dream World is so big and infinite that even an infinite location would be a finite part of it. The latter of which you have given no evidence of. You simply stated it. Being part of something doesn't mean you're a finite part of it, if you're infinite in size.

Infinity means that you never truly run out of space. You can't fill an infinitely wide space (The Dream World) with an infinitely wide object (The Netherworld).




Even if all of this was true, it would still only truly scale to Yukari. Doremy has no feats of affecting or destroying the entire Dream World, only individual dreams. And thus, it would be an outlier.

None of these arguments are remotely enough for the Dream World to be Low 1-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Saikou still makes sense to me.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Even if all of this was true, it would still only truly scale to Yukari. Doremy has no feats of affecting or destroying the entire Dream World, only individual dreams. And thus, it would be an outlier.

None of these arguments are remotely enough for the Dream World to be Low 1-C.

But this would mean that the whole cosmology itself is 5D/L1-C then right? Like sure, it wouldn't scale to the Dream World, and would only scale to Yukari- but its an outlier.

But still, this means that the whole verse itself is L1-C then.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

I'm saying that if the Dream World is Low 1-C (It's not), then the only person who'd scale out of the high tier is Yukari. But that'd be an outlier given how no one on her level has that kind of feat. Sure part of the Cosmology would be Low 1-C, but that wouldn't really matter.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I'm saying that if the Dream World is Low 1-C (It's not)

Ahhh, okay, gotcha.

I was confused for a bit. I thought you meant that the whole cosmology is L1-C, just that no one scaled and its an outlier.

But you actually meant IF it was legit L1-C

Which it isn't.

So the whole cosmology is still 2-B then?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It should be. Outside of the Otherworlds we know, Maribel states that there are countless Otherworlds. That's the most we got.

 

[Jasonsith]

Ahhh, okay, gotcha.

I was confused for a bit. I thought you meant that the whole cosmology is L1-C, just that no one scaled and its an outlier.

But you actually meant IF it was legit L1-C

Which it isn't.

So the whole cosmology is still 2-B then?

How to count the number of "universes"?
Like what figures warrant a number of universes over 1001 but not infinite?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's going off Maribel describing the amount of Otherworlds as "countless", which afaik is something we put at 2-B.

Although the exact number doesn't reaaally matter tbh. No one directly scales to this number. The Primordial Gods and Yukari only scale in a group/over time.

 

[Shmooply]

The Primordial Gods and Yukari only scale in a group/over time.

Where is this stated?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Where is this stated?

I mean the entire Primordial God feat is by definition in group. The gods got together and named things, giving them a distinction from the great whole. No one deity created the entire thing. And considering we know there is far, far more than 8 million of these gods, none of them are scaling to the full thing by themselves.

As for Yukari it's less that it's stated to be over time and more that the statement never claimed that Yukari can even do the feat. All Akyuu states is that without the Boundaries Yukari manipulates, the world would end up being one massive object with no distinction. So in Theory, Yukari could affect the entire verse if given enough time. But we don't know if she could affect the entire world at once. She just lacks the feats for it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I mean the entire Primordial God feat is by definition in group. The gods got together and named things, giving them a distinction from the great whole. No one deity created the entire thing. And considering we know there is far, far more than 8 million of these gods, none of them are scaling to the full thing by themselves.

As for Yukari it's less that it's stated to be over time and more that the statement never claimed that Yukari can even do the feat. All Akyuu states is that without the Boundaries Yukari manipulates, the world would end up being one massive object with no distinction. So in Theory, Yukari could affect the entire verse if given enough time. But we don't know if she could affect the entire world at once. She just lacks the feats for it.

Wouldn't it be via chain reaction rather than overtime?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Wouldn't it be via chain reaction rather than overtime?

No. Again, it's not even stated that she can even achieve that. Just that without Boundaries, this is what would happen. Nothing indicates her ability's potency and range would allow her to instantly nuke every boundary in existence at once. Her biggest feats are being able to nuke Gensokyo and messing with the border between larger realms like the Netherworld.

 

[Greatsage13th]

No. Again, it's not even stated that she can even achieve that. Just that without Boundaries, this is what would happen. Nothing indicates her ability's potency and range would allow her to instantly nuke every boundary in existence at once. Her biggest feats are being able to nuke Gensokyo and messing with the border between larger realms like the Netherworld.

I see

 

[Jasonsith]

The scans do mention that there are higher existences tho, and that also the beings within the "worlds beyond" are invisible to us, so like we can't interact with them. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the fact that lower dimensional beings not being able to perceive higher ones means its exactly higher dimensional? So there's clearly superiority here.

Also this is High 1-B, even. There's no mention of 11 or 10 dimensions or worlds- its explicitly countless worlds. So there are countless of these "worlds beyond", so it should be Infinite dimensional. Or just insanely high into 1-B. Note that there's zero mention of 10 or 11 dimensions- its only ever stated to be countless. So this is a massive buff, in all actuality.

Source: Dr. Latency's Freak Report

If it dictates countless worlds but shows no hierarchy among worlds at all, this may qualify as "at least 2-C, likely 2-B, possibly 2-A".

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Countless isn't infinite. No 2-A.

 

[Ningenron]

Dunno if this worth mentioning but The Raw of hecatia's statement doesn't saw infinite, it says ikurademo (いくらでも) which often just means no matter how much, as many/much as one likes, Plenty, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Countless universes is only 2-B, yes.

Anyway, thank you for helping out, Saikou. Should we add a new discussion rule against bringing up this topic again?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Countless universes is only 2-B, yes.

Anyway, thank you for helping out, Saikou. Should we add a new discussion rule against bringing up this topic again?

Hold on, why?

 

[Jasonsith]

Countless universes is only 2-B, yes.

Anyway, thank you for helping out, Saikou. Should we add a new discussion rule against bringing up this topic again?

Hold on, why?

Banning discussion is not necessary at the moment.
Just make a very simple statement with a very detailed explanation why we have our current standpoint on Touhou god tiers will be good enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Banning discussion is not necessary at the moment.
Just make a very simple statement with a very detailed explanation why we have our current standpoint on Touhou god tiers will be good enough.

Okay. Should we place that in the Touhou verse page then?

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

But the Dream World itself is physical like I brought up countless times. People going inside that world can get hurt physically. Stuff brought from the Dream World can interact with others normally as well. It's not part of the "Mental Layer" described elsewhere.

While I'm not trying to argue for the upgrade right now, I don't think this is quite right.

If the Dream World was made of physical things, then Doremy wouldn't have been so shocked to see beings with physical forms travelling through it. In fact, a major story beat of Violet Detector is about the other dream dwellers being jealous that dream Sumireko currently has a "flesh and blood body."

And while it's true that characters with physical forms can be harmed by dream dwellers and Doremy, this is done mostly through danmaku, which is usually powered by spellcards using magic, spirit, etc.
Not only that, but this is a verse with a crap ton of examples where characters are capable of Non-Physical Interaction. In other words, it doesn't exactly seem farfetched that dream dwellers can interact and harm physical beings, and vice versa.

As a little bit of side evidence, Reimu being touched by a Dream Soul didn't send her physical body to the dream world. It was left behind when she traveled there. This further cements that physical things and beings don't normally belong there.

Honestly, whether or not my argument helps with the Mental Layer stuff doesn't matter to me right now. I think my dumb brain just fixated on one thing, haha.

Anyway, given what I've said above, it just seems blatantly wrong to say the Dream World is physical, when nearly everything points towards the opposite.