Touhou: Into the Multiverse

[OnsokunoSonic]

Hello there. Today I will try to upgrade Touhou to the big funny tier, so stick a while would you? But before that I would like to thank the peoples that have helped both externally and internally, special thanks to: @GreatIskandar14045 for helping me out and the Touhou Supporters for the encouragement

Current Agreements: 14 (Including: @QuasiYuri, @KingPin0422)

Cosmology

So currently the cosmology is treated as 2-B by a couple of people, and it's time to fix that.

First off all we need to establish what theories that the verse follows. First off, the verse follows String Theory, which requires 10 Dimension to operates (it's 10D by default is what I'm saying).

My major is relative psychology. Renko's is super unified physics. I wonder how her recent studies of strings are coming along?

String Theory has different versions, and Touhou follows the "Brane-World Scenario" version of the theory.

I became able to see it. A world where youkai live even now." "Perhaps that could be another brane world..." "Another what?" "Oh, just one of the worlds only physicists can see.

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

Perhaps Merry is seeing one of those brane worlds.

Also, they're described as world, Otherworld, to be exact.

Merry said that if we refer to the world we humans observe, which is dominated by photons, as "the world here," then there are also countless "worlds beyond" dominated by other types of particles. And in those "worlds beyond," there are life-forms living there as well.

They're also separated by a conceptual boundary.

According to her, "there's a slight boundary between the world here and those beyond, and something that strongly resists travel between them along that boundary. If I could just get the hang of it, I could easily cross over."

It is stated that each world can interact with each other, similar to how the theory goes

Merry said that she'd recently started to see multiple worlds at the same time. According to her, all people are seeing slightly different worlds. Particularly interesting was that despite this, they can apparently still communicate with each other.

So now that we have established that they does follow Brane World Version of the Theory, which makes lower dimension as a subspace of the higher one, the higher dimension is also extensive. So basically the closed strings becomes opened.

"But, the verse doesn't fit the criteria to be tier 1! The higher dimension/layer doesn't trivialize the lower one!"

The verse has shown that it does follow Brane Cosmology which should qualify for our tiering system. Just like Gurren Lagann.

The Dream World

The Dream World is a called the Mental Plane

As you know, the passageway
between Earth and the Lunar Capital is the mental world.

This is the Dream World!
Don't think you can stand against me, an eater and creator of dreams!

The Dream World exist on a different layer than us, stated by Reimu

First is the physical layer that moves in accordance with the laws of physics, including all living things, objects, etc. It is on this layer that an object falls towards the ground, and that the water of the river flows.

The second layer is one that moves with the spirit, which includes things such as magic and sorcery, the mental layer. One's mood turning sour when meeting an unpleasant person, and releasing all your stress and cares during a party lie here. Since most youkai can control the world through both the physical and mental layers, they say that history repeats itself and the future is predetermined as a prank.

Here, it's stated that Youkai control the physical layer's future by manipulating through the Mental Layer. These layers are stated in order btw, indicating the Physical Layer is below the Mental Layer and Probability Layer is beyond those 2, similar to how Umineko explain the three domains of their world.

The physical layer follows the laws of physics, the mental layer explains the outcomes and the memory layer alters probability, mutually creating the future. Reimu said that excepting the cases when something has already happened in the past, it is impossible to predict the future.

And here, we have a statement that the Dream World is controlling reality itself, signifying they does exist on a higher plane.

Now let's talk deeper about the Physical Layer. The Physical Layer is basically our Universe, where our girls lives on, and it has some statement that it contain space, here's one of them, if you don't believe that, we know that space=time in Touhou so it's still a space time.

Q: In EoSD, who is the person Patchouli called "the person who likes to play around with time and space"?

A: That is of course referring to Sakuya.

Sakuya controls duration of time, not single moments of time.
In the former case of "duration of time", you can't separate it from space.

Because of that, manipulating time also means manipulating space, and vice-versa.

There's also this statement from Patchouli.

Now the Dream World exist beyond that. Not to forgot that the Dream World is an Otherworld that has been stated to be a "world beyond"

Merry said that if we refer to the world we humans observe, which is dominated by photons, as "the world here," then there are also countless "worlds beyond" dominated by other types of particles. And in those "worlds beyond," there are life-forms living there as well.

But WAIT, there's more.

So, we know that the Dream World contain an infinite sized structure, called the Netherworld as a finite part of it. The Netherworld is stated to be larger by Akyuu and the Ministry of Right and Wrong than the infinite sized hell.




"How could it be a finite part of it? Doremy could be creating the dreams and erased it the same time in Violet Detector! The Dream World can contain the Netherworld, but it doesn't mean it's only a finite part of it since Doremy can possibly be recreating and destroying the dreams."

I'm not surprised if someone does ask this, btw.

The answer to your question is that the Dream World contain the location of the dream that are dreamed by the dream dwellers (Ex: Yuyuko's Netherworld, Suwako's Shrine, Sagume's Lunar Capital, etc.), and the location stays there even if the dream dwellers are gone (defeated), as shown on the video above, around 2:55 where Kanako teams up with Yuyuko, we see that Yuyuko is decimated while the Netherworld still exist, Kanako, to my knowledge has never been to the Netherworld and thus shouldn't be able to dream the Netherworld. The Netherworld should also be destroyed along with Yuyuko when she got decimated (defeated), this signify that the Netherworld is an actual location in the Dream World. This further supported by people meeting Sumireko on their dreams even though they don't normally met her becacuse Sumireko is lost on the Dream World. Marisa here is of course trying to say that Sumireko shouldn't appear in dreams where the person that's dreaming it doesn't even know her.

"This isn't related, but I've heard Sumireko's been showing up in people's dreams. And from multiple people, too."

"Really? Huh. She sticks in people's minds more than you'd expect, huh?"

"They tell me that in these dreams, they're going on a rampage when they get cleanly beaten. And for whatever reason a lot of people are having these dreams. Even people who don't normally see her. Pretty strange coincidence..."

"Don't tell me Sumireko's lost in the dream world?!"

There's also this statement in Doremy's omake.txt, stating that dreams are connected at the deepest level, you can visit places you never seen, signifying that the location in the Dream Worlds are actual location that's located somewhere on the Dream World.

Now, let's continue.

The Netherworld is an Otherworld, which means that it's a Brane World, that's embedded on...a world that exist beyond the universe (The Mental Plane), and the Netherworld is only a finite portion of the Dream World. Since everything has a Dream version of them, the Netherworld (surprisingly) has a Dream version of the world, therefore the Dream World contain enough space to have the Dream Netherworld. And the Dream World was shown to still be quite spacious even when containing that.

Recap

Lower layer/worlds are confined to a membrane that exist on a higher dimension, the strings are opened and is not compactified, the higher layer is larger than the previous one, because the higher layer has shown that it's large enough make the lower layer become only a subset of the higher one. Therefore it's proof that the verse qualify for tier 1. Here I remind you that the Brane World in Touhou are actual worlds and isn't compactified.

Perhaps Merry is seeing one of those brane worlds.

And here I remind you that the world is composed of tiny membranes, and those membranes are actual world (great many of them).

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

All of these should signify, that Touhou is indeed a Brane Multiverse. And qualify for our tiering system.

Probability Layer

This layer controls probability and exist beyond the Physical Layer and Mental Layer (Dream World), and therefore should be upgraded to Hyperverse Level (12D)

But according to Reimu, there is a third layer that rejects loops. The third layer is the layer of memory, which is the recollection of events that lies within all things. Since it's only possible to add to the memory layer, it's impossible to completely recreate the past. If something were to happen that already occurred in the past, then there would be a contradiction because that would imply that memory was lost, which is impossible. The memory layer always continues to build up.

Scaling

So we know that there is a certain youkai named Doremy Sweet who is the ruler of Dream World, she can create Dreams and erased it at will, and she seems to be native in it, and thus should scale to the Dream World (H1-C).

Now, ZUN stated that Doremy isn't a strong youkai

and you don't picture baku as particularly strong youkai anyway. They just can't escape the image of the real animal. And, well, Doremy's a baku.

Which means that youkai such as Suika, Yukari, etc should upscale above Doremy Sweet, like it or not. And scale to the main cast and stuff

"But being native on a H1-C realm doesn't mean you're H1-C!"

Well, guess what boy?

Things That Are Affected

Yukari's range needs to be upgraded to 1-B due to her powers being stated to be able to destroy all of existence, now you may think this statement is hyperbolic but Yukari's power is compared to the power of the deities, that is responsible for the creation of reality. She also has shown that her abilities can affect a higher layer (the Dream World).

Among the abilities youkai are known to possess, this is one of the most dangerous, being comparable even to the power of gods.

Reimu's range should also be upgraded to 1-B due to her conceptual power being similar, Reimu is also able to summon the Deity of Boundaries (Ama no Iwato Wake no Mikoto), and it has been accepted that deities got full control over the concepts that is linked to them. She has shown mastery over her summoning, being able to summon Deities using mere thought. She also is capable of creating gaps through slashing the air with her purification rod and more. Fantasy Nature should also be upgraded to 1-B since it's been stated that nobody can beat her in Imperishable Night, one of the character in Imperishable Night is Yukari.

A secret technique which is extreme in many ways. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats away from all sorts of things and cannot to be attacked.
If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her using any method.

Youkais range needs to be upgraded to H1-C due to existing in the Dream World, which is a higher world beyond the Physical Layer which is 10D.
Deities range needs to be upgraded to 1-B via their Conceptual Manipulation, also, their application should also change, from mere creating and manipulating certain concepts to also be able to destroy concepts, since it's compared to Yukari's power.

TL;DR

• The Fabric of each Universe=10D
• The Physical Layer=10D
• The Dream World=11D
• The Probability Layer=12D
• Reimu and Yukari conceptual hax range upgraded to 1-B
• Youkais mind range upgraded to H1-C
• Primordials are now 1-B scaling to the cosmology
• Fantasy Nature is 1-B because it's been stated that no one can beat her in Imperishable Night
• H3-A and L2-C character got upgraded to H1-C

What? These are wanks? There is a saying: "Dream as high as you can so that if you fall, you will fall into a star" you know.
Thanks for reading these goodies.

 

[Shmooply]

Life is pain. I hate.
following

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Lol

 

[Pixy]

dude this is too fast we still have 2 revision that doesn't finish yet tho
also following

 

[Kuro4416]

Following, I have read it and it looks just fine, sentence Touhou OP

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Oh no.

I guess I'll follow.

Man why is there so many higher dimension buffs lately? I heard of DMC, Mother, Fate, Sonic, and now this.

EDIT: I think we should call some people who know well about higher dimensional stuff to evaluate this. H1-C was already huge- 1-B is even more massive of a buff.

 

[Orioreeem]

This gonna be interesting. Even more so when Malmotek shows up

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

If this is exactly 1-to-1 the same exact cosmology as Gurren Lagann then shouldn't this be an automatic buff? Like if its EXACTLY like TTGL then I've gotta agree with this buff.

Sad to see Touhou characters won't be used that much though since H1-C and 1-B don't have too many matchups.

 

[Orioreeem]

Characters expect Gods' true forms will be 3D in existence right?

 

[Lormac_CC]

I am neutral here, you can call Ultima

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Yes I will ultima.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Yes I will ultima.

I am asleep

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Characters expect Gods' true forms will be 3D in existence right?

If this goes the same way as the DMC thread, then MAYBE its just the hax thats 10D to 1-B and not their physical stats, but we will have to wait on Ultima and other experts on dimensional tiering to evaluate this.

 

[Kuro4416]

If this goes the same way as the DMC thread, then MAYBE its just the hax thats 10D to 1-B and not their physical stats, but we will have to wait on Ultima and other experts on dimensional tiering to evaluate this.

I think this thread will not be the same as DMC, also if they are able to affect the structure of 1B, that's good enough, whatever, let's wait for the entry of other staff

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Who is Ultima?

 

[Kuro4416]

Who is Ultima?

@Ultima_Reality

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

basically the guy who's an expert on higher dimensional tiering

The legit kind, mind you

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Hmm.. I'm going to say that I'm neutral, leaning on agreement for this one.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

If this is exactly 1-to-1 the same exact cosmology as Gurren Lagann then shouldn't this be an automatic buff? Like if its EXACTLY like TTGL then I've gotta agree with this buff.

Sad to see Touhou characters won't be used that much though since H1-C and 1-B don't have too many matchups.

It's not the EXACT same, but the cosmology is similar to each other.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Neutral.

 

[Shiroiyo]

Follow.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Since we're talking about Ultima here, Ultima once said this on one of his message wall post

Q: I have a question,how can brane cosmology be tier 1 while we don't know exactly if higher dimension is uncountably infinitely superior to lower one or not?
Ultima: A higher-dimensional object holding uncountably infinite superiority in volume over a lower-dimensional one is always the case, mostly. The issue is that, unintuitive as that as, mass and energy are quantities that are not really affected by a change in coordinate spaces, and so that means a lower-dimensional object can have more mass than, and exert equal or more energy, than a higher-dimensional one, which is why dimensionality alone gives no tier on its own.

Brane Cosmology, more often than not, provides an escape for that, since the fundamental postulation of it is the existence of a higher-dimensional space in which the Branes are embedded (The Bulk), with this space being often assumed as infinite in size as well. So, it'd fall under the following requirement, outline in the Tiering System FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

So yes, Brane Cosmology does qualify for tier 1.
Should I add a agree disagree poll btw?

 

[Lormac_CC]

So yes, Brane Cosmology does qualify for tier 1.
Should I add a agree disagree poll btw?

Well, there is the mention of brane, but it looks is so different from what GL uses which is entails universes being restricted to brane rather than being composed of them.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Well, there is the mention of brane, but it looks is so different from what GL uses which is entails universes being restricted to brane rather than being composed of them.

The universe is composed of Brane Worlds, if I remembered correctly, one of the fundamental thing about Brane Cosmology is that it requires a higher dimension to operate. It's stated that there are other Brane Worlds and can interact with each other, this is a reference to the Brane Multiverse which allows the existence of the "bulk" which is the higher dimensional plane.

Merry said that she'd recently started to see multiple worlds at the same time. According to her, all people are seeing slightly different worlds. Particularly interesting was that despite this, they can apparently still communicate with each other.

There's also the Dream World which is another Brane World that can contain the Lower Brane World as a finite part of itself, and said Lower Brane World is infinite (Read the Dream World part).

The main argument of Gurren Lagann being higher dimensional is because the use of String Theory+Brane Cosmology anyway.

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[Alice_the_Eternal_Sleep]

I agree

 

[Lormac_CC]

Sorry for the late reply, I have read through and I will reply. This is my opinion though.

First off all we need to establish what theories that the verse follows. First off, the verse follows String Theory, which requires 10 Dimension to operates (it's 10D by default is what I'm saying).

String Theory has different versions

First of all, I believe the theory the verse use is the superstring theory. Why I said this is due to your scan that talks about gravity and unifying the forces. This theory can more than 4 dimensions.

For the Brane stuff
Merry said that if we refer to the world we humans observe, which is dominated by photons, as "the world here," then there are also countless "worlds beyond" dominated by other types of particles. And in those "worlds beyond," there are life-forms living there as well.

I am not really knowledgeable on the verse but could you explain why this proves that the tiny membrane are worlds. If anything, the scan says the current world is composed of photons and worlds beyond are dominated by other particles and I believe brane worlds are just dominated by thin membrane.
this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

I became able to see it. A world where youkai live even now." "Perhaps that could be another brane world..." "Another what?" "Oh, just one of the worlds only physicists can see.

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

Perhaps Merry is seeing one of those brane worlds.

Now based on the first scans, Brane worlds are worlds only physicist can see. The second scan. It can be interpreted as brane worlds being composed of membrane. So I don't really know. I am not knowledgeable on the verse, so the person that made this statement, was he/she inside the one of those brane world.

I might be wrong but I am neutral on the stuff

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

First of all, I believe the theory the verse use is the superstring theory. Why I said this is due to your scan that talks about gravity and unifying the forces. This theory can have 4 or more than 4 dimensions.

I doubt that Touhou adapt the Superstring Theory. I don't remember anything like fermions and bosons on the series.

I am not really knowledgeable on the verse but could you explain why this proves that the tiny membrane are worlds. If anything, the scan says the current world is composed of photons and worlds beyond are dominated by other particles and I believe brane worlds are just dominated by thin membrane.
this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

Because these scans are posted in order (literally in order from the source)

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

Perhaps Merry is seeing one of those brane worlds.

Which is trying to say that the membranes are worlds in my interpretation.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree

 

[Lormac_CC]

According to physicists who can see hallucinations, this world is supposedly composed of very thin membranes, and a great many of them.

I did ask you where this statement was made, it would really help to prove your point. If it was made in a brane world it would mean that brane worlds are just composed of thin membrane. Even though the universe is composed of brane by your interpretation, not all worlds are actually brane worlds

 

[Shiroiyo]

I agree.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I did ask you where this statement was made, it would really help to prove your point. If it was made in a brane world it would mean that brane worlds are just composed of thin membrane. Even though the universe is composed of brane by your interpretation, not all worlds are actually brane worlds

The Physical Layer? Also, can you explain what are you trying to say please?

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @Ryukama @Udlmaster @Junkoposter @LuckyEmile

What do you think about this?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

@Promestein @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @Ryukama @Udlmaster @Junkoposter @LuckyEmile

What do you think about this?

Can you please tag some staff that's knowledgeable on the tiering system too?

 

[Udlmaster]

As far as I've been made aware, String theory has long since been discontinued as being valid evidence for 10-D and above.

Not only is String theory rather vague, since it contains many other theories where the Dimensionality ranges from 4 to 12, but also, the Dimensions in question are so small, they can function only at the Quantum scale.

I don't really agree with the upgrade to Tier 1 on this basis, since the Precedent set has been to reject these reasonings.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

As far as I've been made aware, String theory has long since been discontinued as being valid evidence for 10-D and above.

Not only is String theory rather vague, since it contains many other theories where the Dimensionality ranges from 4 to 12, but also, the Dimensions in question are so small, they can function only at the Quantum scale.

I don't really agree with the upgrade to Tier 1 on this basis, since the Precedent set has been to reject these reasonings.

Only if we could regard PC-98 Canon, then Yumemi's existence would prove it's validity

 

[Shmooply]

snippety snip

String theory on its own doesn't really grant anything, but Touhou's cosmology doesn't only use string theory, but also branes as well (re-read the OP, it's hard to spot it because the post is decently long), which would make the cosmology 11-D. I am aware that comparing verses is a cardinal sin, but Gurren Lagann's cosmology literally works the same way (string theory, branes, et cetera), and the characters are high 1-C because of it. Because of this, I think Touhou should still qualify for the tier.

Also this statement from Ultima:
Q: I have a question,how can brane cosmology be tier 1 while we don't know exactly if higher dimension is uncountably infinitely superior to lower one or not?
Ultima: A higher-dimensional object holding uncountably infinite superiority in volume over a lower-dimensional one is always the case, mostly. The issue is that, unintuitive as that as, mass and energy are quantities that are not really affected by a change in coordinate spaces, and so that means a lower-dimensional object can have more mass than, and exert equal or more energy, than a higher-dimensional one, which is why dimensionality alone gives no tier on its own.

Brane Cosmology, more often than not, provides an escape for that, since the fundamental postulation of it is the existence of a higher-dimensional space in which the Branes are embedded (The Bulk), with this space being often assumed as infinite in size as well. So, it'd fall under the following requirement, outline in the Tiering System FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Bumperoo.

 

[Urshani]

tier 1 2hu?

disagree

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

tier 1 2hu?

disagree

On what basis tho