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Touhou: Into the Multiverse

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Shmooply said:
Ultima: A higher-dimensional object holding uncountably infinite superiority in volume over a lower-dimensional one is always the case, mostly. The issue is that, unintuitive as that as, mass and energy are quantities that are not really affected by a change in coordinate spaces, and so that means a lower-dimensional object can have more mass than, and exert equal or more energy, than a higher-dimensional one, which is why dimensionality alone gives no tier on its own.

Brane Cosmology, more often than not, provides an escape for that, since the fundamental postulation of it is the existence of a higher-dimensional space in which the Branes are embedded (The Bulk), with this space being often assumed as infinite in size as well. So, it'd fall under the following requirement, outline in the Tiering System FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.
Click to expand...
I am very dumb, does this mean Ultima agrees with 10D Touhou or that Touhou cosmology is legit higher D

I just wanna know if 10D and higher Touhou is 100% legit lmao

Oh the bragging rights I will get over on people who said Gilgamesh stomps Yukari muahahaha
 
If Brane Cosmology fits Tier 1 and Touhou stated that it uses Brane Cosmology AND Ultima said this then like

What else the F is there to argue against

I agree with the buff.
 
doesn't have to know about touhou but very knowledgable about tierring systems so they and just check scans and see if it qualifies
DontTalkTD seems to have some idea about touhou too iirc.
 
Hello! Good thread O "Sepuh Tohou" (Sepuh = Knowledgeable Supporter) but there are some mistakes in your interpretation. What I get from these cosmological description is that Tohou doesn't strictly follow a principled structure like String Theory even though they use the same implementation. I disagree with H1C ratings but I can give another solutions.

These cosmology of brane, as said by Mister Ultima, can be a solution to overcome the relatively higher dimensional problems. However, we must realize that every fiction cannot be flattened to have the same structure as String Theory which branches off as Brane Cosmology. Or, not all fiction that uses this system is directly 10 or 11D.

In the case of Gurren Laggan, 10-11D is acceptable because it is explicitly mentioned in the anime series. That their universe (Anti Spiral) is within the membrane of the 10th and 11th extradimensionality. Unlike this case of Tohou which is not mentioned as such.

All that can be said about this theory is, the set of brane cosmologies is the subset of the possible string vacua (so of the string landscape) in which there are large or even non-compact extra dimensions, while the four-dimensional universe is familiar to us is attached to a D-brane.

Basically, Brane Cosmology can be stable in the 5th dimension (in minimum form). There is a formula we can take from here based on Sir Einstein's calculations.

Where K25 = 8πG(5) = M^-3 is the coupling constant of the fifth dimension. RAB is the dimensional Ricci tensor and R the scalar curvature. This calculation, in short, that explains at least Brane Cosmology is stable in the fifth dimension.

Seeing how the world there works, where each world is compacting with each other like the Otherworld compacted by Dream World proves that the principle of this fiction makes Lower Dimensions as a subspace of Higher Dimensions. So when sorted the structure will be like this:

1. Otherworld (Brane World) = 5D.
2. Dreamworld = 6D.
3. Probability Layer = 7D.

The Otherworld (Brane World) can be thought of as a world of interconnected yokai and can communicate with each other using the No-communication Theorem in quantum mechanics. It can be concluded that the whole Otherworld is 5D.

And, since Dreamworld is a higher dimension world and contains an Otherworld on the Infinite scale then it will be 6D. The Probability Layer will act as 7D because it is the layer that contains everything and exists beyond the Dreamworld.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Hello! Good thread O "Sepuh Tohou" (Sepuh = Knowledgeable Supporter) but there are some mistakes in your interpretation. What I get from these cosmological description is that Tohou doesn't strictly follow a principled structure like String Theory even though they use the same implementation. I disagree with H1C ratings but I can give another solutions.

These cosmology of brane, as said by Mister Ultima, can be a solution to overcome the relatively higher dimensional problems. However, we must realize that every fiction cannot be flattened to have the same structure as String Theory which branches off as Brane Cosmology. Or, not all fiction that uses this system is directly 10 or 11D.

In the case of Gurren Laggan, 10-11D is acceptable because it is explicitly mentioned in the anime series. That their universe (Anti Spiral) is within the membrane of the 10th and 11th extradimensionality. Unlike this case of Tohou which is not mentioned as such.

All that can be said about this theory is, the set of brane cosmologies is the subset of the possible string vacua (so of the string landscape) in which there are large or even non-compact extra dimensions, while the four-dimensional universe is familiar to us is attached to a D-brane.

Basically, Brane Cosmology can be stable in the 5th dimension (in minimum form). There is a formula we can take from here based on Sir Einstein's calculations.

Where K25 = 8πG(5) = M^-3 is the coupling constant of the fifth dimension. RAB is the dimensional Ricci tensor and R the scalar curvature. This calculation, in short, that explains at least Brane Cosmology is stable in the fifth dimension.

Seeing how the world there works, where each world is compacting with each other like the Otherworld compacted by Dream World proves that the principle of this fiction makes Lower Dimensions as a subspace of Higher Dimensions. So when sorted the structure will be like this:

1. Otherworld (Brane World) = 5D.
2. Dreamworld = 6D.
3. Probability Layer = 7D.

The Otherworld (Brane World) can be thought of as a world of interconnected yokai and can communicate with each other using the No-communication Theorem in quantum mechanics. It can be concluded that the whole Otherworld is 5D.

And, since Dreamworld is a higher dimension world and contains an Otherworld on the Infinite scale then it will be 6D. The Probability Layer will act as 7D because it is the layer that contains everything and exists beyond the Dreamworld.
Click to expand...
Very well, I can understand it more easily, so I will agree with this even though I still lack knowledge of this string theory and brane cosmology, also sepuh👀
 
What this verse is also related to touhou, I have seen him and yahakui one of the higher dimensional creatures with his existence is 37D and yukiko or whatever (I forgot) and she is a higher dimensional creature than yahakui because of his existence is 40D.

So kado are also related to brane theory?
Also, let's get back to the main topic
 
Last edited:
OnsokunoSonic said:
I doubt that Touhou adapt the Superstring Theory. I don't remember anything like fermions and bosons on the series.
Click to expand...
I don't think it needs to explicitly mention fermions and bosons. As Lormac said, superstring theory is an attempt to unify gravitational force with the other three fundamental forces, which lines up with what the first scan says:

The deepest problem in theoretical physics is harmonizing the theory of general relativity, which describes gravitation and applies to large-scale structures (stars, galaxies, super clusters), with quantum mechanics, which describes the other three fundamental forces acting on the atomic scale.
Click to expand...

Also, by definition, superstring theory requires no less than 6 extra dimensions beyond the 4 we are familiar with to be a consistent theory, which may be either compact or large:

Our physical space is observed to have three large spatial dimensions and, along with time, is a boundless 4-dimensional continuum known as spacetime. However, nothing prevents a theory from including more than 4 dimensions. In the case of string theory, consistency requires spacetime to have 10 dimensions (3D regular space + 1 time + 6D hyperspace). The fact that we see only 3 dimensions of space can be explained by one of two mechanisms: either the extra dimensions are compactified on a very small scale, or else our world may live on a 3-dimensional submanifold corresponding to a brane, on which all known particles besides gravity would be restricted.
Click to expand...

And the statements provided in the OP do suggest that the extra dimensions count as large extra dimensions, given all the references to brane cosmology. It should be noted that brane cosmology is one way to reach tier 1 through higher dimensions without explicit statements of higher dimensions being infinitely superior to lower dimensions, as Ultima and the tiering system FAQ both outline. And again, at least one other verse is High 1-C based on string theory + brane cosmology, so there is precedent for this kind of upgrade, at least.

Now, with all of that being said, do I consider myself in favor of this upgrade? I don't know. I am leaning towards agreement, but I would like sources for all of the statements that are simply quoted, and I also want to wait for Touhou experts to respond before I make a concrete judgement.
 
This is what Mokou had to say in response to a few things mentioned above:

"Alright, so I'm probably only gonna argue on behalf of 1-B cosmology once since arguing via proxy kinda sucks for everyone involved. Also, please keep in mind that I am not very knowledgeable on tier 1 in general, so I doubt everything I say here correct.

I do agree with Einel that string theory + brane theory is not inherently 10D or above. However, from what I can tell, the specific theory that Touhou's cosmology subscribes to (the theory of everything) posits that the universe (or the physical layer in Touhou's case) is at least 10 dimensional in nature. Since Touhou has confirmed the existence of this theory, then the universe has to be 10D, so what Onsokuno originally proposed should be fine.

I also wanna point out that the scaling Onsokuno has suggested is a bit weird; with the numerous statements of dreams equaling reality, you could argue that every dream creation feat is H1-C by default since it's recreating a 10D 'reality' within a dream (both Doremy and Yukari are capable of this). There's also a few methods to get Yukari to 1-B via her boundary manipulation. There's the 'undermine all of reality' statement from PMiSS, her AoCF profile states she controls the boundaries of 'everything and anything', which should include the boundary of red and white which defines existence and is the beginning of all things, and Reimu heavily implies she is equal or superior to Ama no Iwato Wake no Mikoto in SSiB. Reimu would also get a 'possibly 1-B' rating with hax, as she possesses the same kind of boundary manipulation that Yukari does according to Okina in HSiFS, but we don't know the full extent of it.

TL;DR: Touhou cosmology is still 1-B because of the theory of everything, and there are better scaling methods than what was suggested in the OP.

sorry for no scans, proxying sucks :v "

She also wanted to know if simply posting the requested scans and nothing else was fine, or if that falls under the thread ban.
 
OverlordDonnelly said:
However, from what I can tell, the specific theory that Touhou's cosmology subscribes to (the theory of everything) posits that the universe (or the physical layer in Touhou's case) is at least 10 dimensional in nature. Since Touhou has confirmed the existence of this theory, then the universe has to be 10D, so what Onsokuno originally proposed should be fine.
Click to expand...
Seeing how String Theory requires 10 dimensions to realize the idea of extradimensional compaction it would seem that the dimensional stage in Tohou would be like that, but we're talking fiction here that doesn't really follow the same principles and there's no specific explanation as to the level of dimensions.

I don't think it's wise if we consider and apply raw explanations as literals following the principles of science that exist in the real world. Even Gurren Laggan needed a very long detailed explanation to create consistency from the Brane Dimension that they adapted.

The only thing that makes Touhou's Brane Cosmology compatible with String Theory is how a lower dimension is conceived by a higher dimension.

"In 1998/99 Merab Gogberashvili published on arXiv a number of articles where he showed that if the Universe is considered as a thin shell (a mathematical synonym for "brane") expanding in 5-dimensional space then there is a possibility to obtain one scale for particle theory corresponding to the 5-dimensional cosmological constant and Universe thickness, and thus to solve the hierarchy problem."

So I assume it safe to consider the very minimum of non-mentionable brane dimension in fiction is the fifth-dimension. Also, the reason why I say this is because how Otherworld could projecting a similiar smaller world as well so that we see it as a form of Multiverse.
 
Sources for the relevant scans, as requested. This may go against my topic ban, but this isn't exactly something that can be proxied over Discord, and its not like I'm debating anything here.

unknown.png

Changeability of Strange Dream.

unknown.png

Everything here is from Dr. Latency's Freak Report.

unknown.png

Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom, Reisen's scenario.

unknown.png

All the layer stuff comes from chapter 27 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia.

unknown.png

One of ZUN's replies to the former Gensou Bulletin Board.

Scans were already provided for the Netherworld being larger than Hell, the Netherworld showing up in the Dream World, and dreams being fundamentally connected at the deepest level so I don't need to do anything there.

unknown.png

Wild and Horned Hermit, chapter 29 (cannot provide a link since this site blocks out m a n g a d e x, so just look it up for yourself)

unknown.png

Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 33.

unknown.png

An interview on Antinomy of Common Flowers.

unknown.png

Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Yukari's section.

unknown.png

ZUN's comments on Reimu's Fantasy Nature in Imperishable Night.

That should cover everything. Take care everyone, and good luck with the upgrades.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Now, with all of that being said, do I consider myself in favor of this upgrade? I don't know. I am leaning towards agreement, but I would like sources for all of the statements that are simply quoted, and I also want to wait for Touhou experts to respond before I make a concrete judgement.
Click to expand...
Well, almost all current active experts already agreed to the thread, and the source of the scans has been provided by Mokou, up there.
 
FujiwaraYesMokou said:
Sources for the relevant scans, as requested. This may go against my topic ban, but this isn't exactly something that can be proxied over Discord, and its not like I'm debating anything here.

unknown.png

Changeability of Strange Dream.

unknown.png

Everything here is from Dr. Latency's Freak Report.

unknown.png

Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom, Reisen's scenario.

unknown.png

All the layer stuff comes from chapter 27 of Curiosities of Lotus Asia.

unknown.png

One of ZUN's replies to the former Gensou Bulletin Board.

Scans were already provided for the Netherworld being larger than Hell, the Netherworld showing up in the Dream World, and dreams being fundamentally connected at the deepest level so I don't need to do anything there.

unknown.png

Wild and Horned Hermit, chapter 29 (cannot provide a link since this site blocks out m a n g a d e x, so just look it up for yourself)

unknown.png

Curiosities of Lotus Asia, chapter 33.

unknown.png

An interview on Antinomy of Common Flowers.

unknown.png

Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Yukari's section.

unknown.png

ZUN's comments on Reimu's Fantasy Nature in Imperishable Night.

That should cover everything. Take care everyone, and good luck with the upgrades.
Click to expand...
Thank you I guess for supporting the thread by providing a numerous scans. Even thought I'm not the supporter, nice scans sir. But after read all of your scans including every link that source-up every moments of such Cosmology case, I don't recall at all of it mentioning the exact dimension of the dream or even the layer.

In all respect for your diligence in this verse, I disagree for it being H1C just because they call stuff 'Brane World' or something like that without further exact confirmation. My point still stands like before.

It's 1C for me.
 
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