Kirbonic_Pikmin
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Seems there’s a lot more to cover than I initially thought, so my reply might end up coming tomorrow or in multiple parts
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Touhou - Infinite Speed issues
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
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- Tags
- speed touhou project
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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So before I start out my entire counter response, I want to take a moment to emphasize that the overwhelmingly large majority or arguments presented in this thread are the same exact tired and trite points that have not only been argued to death and disproven multiple times across quite a few years on multiple threads, such as here, this one, this thread, this one, this one here, also this one, and finally this. Even to the point that 2 years ago by now, I made a blog covering all of the relevant arguments against the three infinite speed feats in question and why they don’t hold up, with the majority of the arguments in this very thread covered in said blog. I recommend looking over this blog for anyone unfamiliar with these arguments or those who are only looking at this thread with little familiarity to Touhou, as it covers the feats themselves + various counters. Here it is.
Ultimately, this isn’t anything new and to be frank, this is getting tiring and trite to deal with eternally on loop. After this thread ends I plan on pushing an infinite speed discussion rule to be put in place, because not only has this discussion frankly become circular and obnoxious, but when every single counter argument to these feats start with “I cannot disprove this space as infinite, it’s very blatant”, there’s a huge problem.
Now, I’m going to address and counter all of the major arguments I’ve been seeing throughout this thread one by one, I will try and be as in depth as possible, I will start with the arguments made against the Infinite Corridor for tonight, and will soon address arguments made against the other infinite speed arguments at a later date. Can't cover everything tonight because I just got off a busy day of work and Shadow Generations is waiting for me I fear. To begin:
This is incorrect for a multitude of reasons, and this point has also been addressed in prior threads and in my blog, and in fact I'll just be lifting some of my explanations from my blog, but to repeat:
For one, the Corridor is stated to be an infinitely sized space multiple times. Secondly, Kaguya's ability is never stated to be capable of creating time loops, Her ability is that of manipulating eternity and the instantaneous; Essentially infinite time and zero time. To extend something infinitely is the entire purpose of her ability, such as extending the time of something to an infinite extent to make it immune to change. Assuming its a time loop would be assuming she miraculously has an ability she has never showcased before and is not how her powers work. Third, we know that the corridor isn't looped, as the protagonists aren't having their positions reset. They are clearly moving in a linear fashion, as they are able to reach the space between the earth and false moon. If they were in a loop, they would've still been on ground level, or close to it. Finally, and most notably, would be the fact that time loops are literally not possible within Touhou and its cosmology. Within Touhou, there exist three layers of reality: The physical layer, the mental layer, and the memory layer. The memory layer is the most important of the three, as one of the main purposes of its existence is to prevent loops. Thanks to this layer, anything that has happened in the past is remembered, and so long as that memory exists, it is impossible for that exact event to occur in the same way again. In the case of a space-time loop, since time is being repeated, this would cause events within a predetermined time frame to repeat as well, in the exact same manner that they occurred the first time. Obviously, this contradicts the functions of the memory layer, so the space-time loop theory would require Kaguya to literally defy the very laws reality is built on and substitute her own, something we should not assume without a significant amount of evidence.
I'm pretty sure this has already been stated and covered multiple times before me, but I'll just re-enforce it. What lies between Earth and the Lunar Capitol is Heaven, and Heaven is well documented and currently accepted on wiki as an infinitely sized realm, meaning that the Corridor going up into the sky, and thus, into Heaven, would not be a contradiction for its size being infinite, as it would simply be passing from a finite realm into an infinitely sized one.
"The Moon can't be infinitely far away from Gensokyo, because humans in the Outside World have traveled to Earth"
This is probably the first genuinely new point that's been brought against infinite speed in a while, but it's definitely missing a lot of simple context that makes it not an adequate counter. But to cut to the chase, the moon that the humans landed on in the Outside World is not the same as the Lunar Capitol.
To start, the Lunar Capitol is stated to have the same relationship with the Moon as Gensokyo does with the Earth. This means that the Lunar Capitol does not exist physically on the same plane as the moon, instead being within a separate dimension, similar to Gensokyo's relationship with Earth. They're wholly different things, in fact, Eirin states that the moon the humans reached in the Outside World is not the same as the one that her and Kaguya traveled to & the one the protagonists traveled to in SSIB. The Lunar Capitol, possibly even the entire moon it resides on, does not exist in the Outside World, and the humans who landed on the moon explicitly never interacted with the Lunarians, as they were outside of the barrier/boundary of the moon as well.
Speaking of, The moon has its own "boundary" , the Boundary of the Moon, which separates the Moon from the Lunar Capitol, and its explicitly stated that this boundary would mean its impossible to interact with the Lunar Capitol or Lunarians from the Moon in the Outside World.
It should also be noted that Gensokyo, Heaven and The Lunar Capitol are all within the boundaries of the Hakurei Barrier, while the Outside World is beyond it. This means there's no major issue with someone flying from Gensokyo, through Heaven and then reaching the Lunar Capitol beyond it. While it might seem strange, that's simply how its described.
This means that a ship could fly a finite distance from the Earth to the Moon and reach its destination with no issue, because all that's between the Earth and the Moon is the finite distance between them, meanwhile, one going the distance of Gensokyo to the Lunar Capitol would have to cross an infinite distance, as what separates Gensokyo and the Lunar Capitol specifically, is Heaven. The two are different and distinct, meaning there's no contradictions.
Most notably, where even is the proof, or even the potential implication that this is what happened? This, as is, is not an adequate response to what blatantly visually and textually happens, and is instead inserting an assumption that somehow makes even less sense because it simply avoids getting a speed stat.
"The fake moon appears to get closer to the protagonists the closer they get to it, implying it's not infinitely far away."
To tackle this more directly, this could be attributed to a variety of factors. For one, Eintei has direct effects and distortions upon a person's perception, making their perception of space distorted. Reisen was also actively ******* with the protagonists sense of directions and space.
Also, the moon is illusory in nature, and thus, its visual depiction isn't 100% truthful nor accurate, as it does not properly abide by perspective and such.
And to continue, this argument is already pretty poor considering its attacking the visuals of a rather visually restricted game, while completely ignoring all statements about it past, present and future. Humans have notoriously never struggled to depict the concept of infinity within fiction, I'm sure. Conceptually, the closer you get to something, the best way to portray that is the thing getting closer to you. Crossing an infinite distance at infinite speeds or not.
"You cant argue infinite speeds if characters cross them despite their intention as deterrents"
This is a really disingenuous argument. For one, infinite distances are an extremely good deterrent for literally anyone on the face of the Earth lol. Most normal humans, spirits, entities or whatever are not going to be able to, or want to bother with crossing a literal infinite distance. The entire purpose of Kaguya's ability is to stop unwanted intruders from reaching her, which would include random human villagers wandering in, people who ostensibly would not be performing feats like this.
Even when these feats are performed by characters, they bitch and complain about it, we know characters generally dislike moving at their peak speed, as we see them complain about the infinite corridor (and complain about traveling infinite distances in the other two feats as well), and the instance with Chiyari is another pretty blatant instance of complaining about it. The protagonists can perform the feats, and have done things of a similar level consistently, but it's still an effective deterrent.
And to be frank, this viewpoint is skewed. VSBW only indexes characters who have some combat capabilities in the first place, obviously we don't have pages for the hundreds and hundreds of non-combatants who don't scale to anything, so it gives off the appearance that "everyone" has infinite speed when it's really just the characters who are worth giving a profile to. The "anyone worth their salt" extends to basically a miniscule fraction of the total people within Touhou, and specifically the capable characters who are able to combat and battle with one another and such. This should not be considered an effective counterargument.
___________
That's all for this current post, however I will be tackling the other arguments in more detail later, hopefully tomorrow, might be the day after, not sure but it'll be soon. Shadow Generations and other responsibilities are calling me.
To be frank, many of the arguments presented so far are assumptions made with no basis that generally contradict or make no sense about what is known within the franchise, or are the same invalid critiques / arguments that have been pushed for years at this point. Every argument starting off with acknowledging that the cosmology being infinite is valid and then trying to poke holes with, frankly, rather blatant feats through every means possible is a little ridiculous, and reads moreso out of pushing to get the feats removed because people just dont like the verse having infinite speed. The lack of any adequate counter to the Sanzu feat kind of furthers this notion.
Ultimately, this isn’t anything new and to be frank, this is getting tiring and trite to deal with eternally on loop. After this thread ends I plan on pushing an infinite speed discussion rule to be put in place, because not only has this discussion frankly become circular and obnoxious, but when every single counter argument to these feats start with “I cannot disprove this space as infinite, it’s very blatant”, there’s a huge problem.
Now, I’m going to address and counter all of the major arguments I’ve been seeing throughout this thread one by one, I will try and be as in depth as possible, I will start with the arguments made against the Infinite Corridor for tonight, and will soon address arguments made against the other infinite speed arguments at a later date. Can't cover everything tonight because I just got off a busy day of work and Shadow Generations is waiting for me I fear. To begin:
"The Corridor is Infinitely Looping / A Time Loop"
This is incorrect for a multitude of reasons, and this point has also been addressed in prior threads and in my blog, and in fact I'll just be lifting some of my explanations from my blog, but to repeat:
For one, the Corridor is stated to be an infinitely sized space multiple times. Secondly, Kaguya's ability is never stated to be capable of creating time loops, Her ability is that of manipulating eternity and the instantaneous; Essentially infinite time and zero time. To extend something infinitely is the entire purpose of her ability, such as extending the time of something to an infinite extent to make it immune to change. Assuming its a time loop would be assuming she miraculously has an ability she has never showcased before and is not how her powers work. Third, we know that the corridor isn't looped, as the protagonists aren't having their positions reset. They are clearly moving in a linear fashion, as they are able to reach the space between the earth and false moon. If they were in a loop, they would've still been on ground level, or close to it. Finally, and most notably, would be the fact that time loops are literally not possible within Touhou and its cosmology. Within Touhou, there exist three layers of reality: The physical layer, the mental layer, and the memory layer. The memory layer is the most important of the three, as one of the main purposes of its existence is to prevent loops. Thanks to this layer, anything that has happened in the past is remembered, and so long as that memory exists, it is impossible for that exact event to occur in the same way again. In the case of a space-time loop, since time is being repeated, this would cause events within a predetermined time frame to repeat as well, in the exact same manner that they occurred the first time. Obviously, this contradicts the functions of the memory layer, so the space-time loop theory would require Kaguya to literally defy the very laws reality is built on and substitute her own, something we should not assume without a significant amount of evidence.
"The corridor can't be infinite, because it has to be big enough to fit between the earth and moon, which is a finite distance."
I'm pretty sure this has already been stated and covered multiple times before me, but I'll just re-enforce it. What lies between Earth and the Lunar Capitol is Heaven, and Heaven is well documented and currently accepted on wiki as an infinitely sized realm, meaning that the Corridor going up into the sky, and thus, into Heaven, would not be a contradiction for its size being infinite, as it would simply be passing from a finite realm into an infinitely sized one.
"The Moon can't be infinitely far away from Gensokyo, because humans in the Outside World have traveled to Earth"
This is probably the first genuinely new point that's been brought against infinite speed in a while, but it's definitely missing a lot of simple context that makes it not an adequate counter. But to cut to the chase, the moon that the humans landed on in the Outside World is not the same as the Lunar Capitol.
To start, the Lunar Capitol is stated to have the same relationship with the Moon as Gensokyo does with the Earth. This means that the Lunar Capitol does not exist physically on the same plane as the moon, instead being within a separate dimension, similar to Gensokyo's relationship with Earth. They're wholly different things, in fact, Eirin states that the moon the humans reached in the Outside World is not the same as the one that her and Kaguya traveled to & the one the protagonists traveled to in SSIB. The Lunar Capitol, possibly even the entire moon it resides on, does not exist in the Outside World, and the humans who landed on the moon explicitly never interacted with the Lunarians, as they were outside of the barrier/boundary of the moon as well.
Speaking of, The moon has its own "boundary" , the Boundary of the Moon, which separates the Moon from the Lunar Capitol, and its explicitly stated that this boundary would mean its impossible to interact with the Lunar Capitol or Lunarians from the Moon in the Outside World.
It should also be noted that Gensokyo, Heaven and The Lunar Capitol are all within the boundaries of the Hakurei Barrier, while the Outside World is beyond it. This means there's no major issue with someone flying from Gensokyo, through Heaven and then reaching the Lunar Capitol beyond it. While it might seem strange, that's simply how its described.
This means that a ship could fly a finite distance from the Earth to the Moon and reach its destination with no issue, because all that's between the Earth and the Moon is the finite distance between them, meanwhile, one going the distance of Gensokyo to the Lunar Capitol would have to cross an infinite distance, as what separates Gensokyo and the Lunar Capitol specifically, is Heaven. The two are different and distinct, meaning there's no contradictions.
"Kaguya or Eirin likely dispersed the Corridor rather than the Protagonists Cross it"
Why would they do this? What would they have to gain? Why would they set up an infinite corridor if they were just going to drop it the second it started serving its purpose? What would make them consider changing their plan and doing this, just to still try and stop them afterwards anyways? This makes even less sense, because Eirin blatantly refuses to turn off the illusory sky when Yukari asks, why would she turn off the Corridor to make their lives easier, instead of keeping it up to cause them any sort of distraction possible?
Most notably, where even is the proof, or even the potential implication that this is what happened? This, as is, is not an adequate response to what blatantly visually and textually happens, and is instead inserting an assumption that somehow makes even less sense because it simply avoids getting a speed stat.
"The fake moon appears to get closer to the protagonists the closer they get to it, implying it's not infinitely far away."
Also, the moon is illusory in nature, and thus, its visual depiction isn't 100% truthful nor accurate, as it does not properly abide by perspective and such.
And to continue, this argument is already pretty poor considering its attacking the visuals of a rather visually restricted game, while completely ignoring all statements about it past, present and future. Humans have notoriously never struggled to depict the concept of infinity within fiction, I'm sure. Conceptually, the closer you get to something, the best way to portray that is the thing getting closer to you. Crossing an infinite distance at infinite speeds or not.
"You cant argue infinite speeds if characters cross them despite their intention as deterrents"
This is a really disingenuous argument. For one, infinite distances are an extremely good deterrent for literally anyone on the face of the Earth lol. Most normal humans, spirits, entities or whatever are not going to be able to, or want to bother with crossing a literal infinite distance. The entire purpose of Kaguya's ability is to stop unwanted intruders from reaching her, which would include random human villagers wandering in, people who ostensibly would not be performing feats like this.
Even when these feats are performed by characters, they bitch and complain about it, we know characters generally dislike moving at their peak speed, as we see them complain about the infinite corridor (and complain about traveling infinite distances in the other two feats as well), and the instance with Chiyari is another pretty blatant instance of complaining about it. The protagonists can perform the feats, and have done things of a similar level consistently, but it's still an effective deterrent.
And to be frank, this viewpoint is skewed. VSBW only indexes characters who have some combat capabilities in the first place, obviously we don't have pages for the hundreds and hundreds of non-combatants who don't scale to anything, so it gives off the appearance that "everyone" has infinite speed when it's really just the characters who are worth giving a profile to. The "anyone worth their salt" extends to basically a miniscule fraction of the total people within Touhou, and specifically the capable characters who are able to combat and battle with one another and such. This should not be considered an effective counterargument.
___________
That's all for this current post, however I will be tackling the other arguments in more detail later, hopefully tomorrow, might be the day after, not sure but it'll be soon. Shadow Generations and other responsibilities are calling me.
To be frank, many of the arguments presented so far are assumptions made with no basis that generally contradict or make no sense about what is known within the franchise, or are the same invalid critiques / arguments that have been pushed for years at this point. Every argument starting off with acknowledging that the cosmology being infinite is valid and then trying to poke holes with, frankly, rather blatant feats through every means possible is a little ridiculous, and reads moreso out of pushing to get the feats removed because people just dont like the verse having infinite speed. The lack of any adequate counter to the Sanzu feat kind of furthers this notion.
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Yeah I have to agree with MFTL+, possibly Infinite. If that offends some of you, I don't care. My scrutiny-eye says that this shit is not solid or consistent, so that's my take.
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- Thread starter
- #45
Well I definitively wasn't aware that you considered Kaguya's corridor to be different than the one in IN. Nothing in your post really indicated that, and our scans currently use both statements to prove infinite speed. If that's the case, then the entire feat being infinite speed relies on Eirin's statements saying the corridor is endless. Which just aren't enough here. I was okay considered the corridor truly, physically infinite due to Miko's statements regarding the nature of the corridor. But with IN alone, we just end up with an explicitly illusory corridor being vaguely stated to be "endless" by Eirin. And the Kaguya statement from the manga has thus no reason to apply to the IN corridor, given how this is distinctively post-IN and does not involve a Fake Moon.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. At no point did I ever try to claim that the Moon PHYSICALLY moved closer to the people. I'm just stating the obvious: the Moon appeared bigger to those who flew close to it. Like objects do. Because getting close to objects make them appear bigger. And thus that the Fake Moon acts much like a normal object that might exist in 3D space. The basic notion of "it looks bigger to the view if they get closer to it" holds true. That's all that matters here. Either you agree that it displays those properties, or you give me a good alternate explanation as to why it would seem like it has those properties.
I also don't really care if Eientei messes with people's sense of reality. That's not a proper explanation as to why the Moon acts suspiciously like it cares about perspective but only for a finite amount when you travel infinite distances. Also, if this was an illusion completely incongruent with how they expect the Moon to act, they would have noticed and commented on it. Yet they haven't. If they had travelled infinite distances yet the Moon now only looks finitely closer, people would have noticed it and pointed it out when they decided to talk about how big the Moon looks. Yet they haven't.
I will also remind you what the purpose of the Fake Moon was: to trick people on the ground. As it was previously stated, Eirin didn't expect people to actually get to Eientei to solve this, so this Fake Moon was only designed to trick those who would see the moon from a sane, normal distance. It has no reasons to act this way for people going through the infinite corridor. And... why? Why would it even act that way? Why would Eirin bother making this illusion act like moving towards made it bigger to people travelling infinite distances? This would be a dead give away that the corridor is fake and tricking you. This is a straight up detriment to her plan.
Like, the Occam's Razor is gonna have to intervene at some point. If you go with the "the IN corridor is just an illusion", then the most straightforward explanation is that the corridor is not infinite. Not that it's infinite but Eirin has edited the Fake Moon illusion to look different as you get infinitely closer to it even though no one was supposed to get infinitely close to it and that doing that would instantly sell the illusion out to those it's meant to trick. You're not trying to form a coherent model of what's happening here, you're using all the assumptions you can to fit the narrative of the corridor being physically infinite. Which, without the ULiL statements, relies entirely on a statement by Eirin.
I would also appreciate if the opposition would stop with the slanderous remark and insinutions regarding my "good faith". I'm aware that certain members present here are in contact with a certain banned user known for heated debates regarding this verse. It's not something I would have wished to bring up normally, but if people are getting passive aggressive at me to get their point across again, I think we're gonna have a problem.
Now if you'll excuse me @Kirbonic_Pikmin I'll answer you later because gods know I need to sleep.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. At no point did I ever try to claim that the Moon PHYSICALLY moved closer to the people. I'm just stating the obvious: the Moon appeared bigger to those who flew close to it. Like objects do. Because getting close to objects make them appear bigger. And thus that the Fake Moon acts much like a normal object that might exist in 3D space. The basic notion of "it looks bigger to the view if they get closer to it" holds true. That's all that matters here. Either you agree that it displays those properties, or you give me a good alternate explanation as to why it would seem like it has those properties.
I also don't really care if Eientei messes with people's sense of reality. That's not a proper explanation as to why the Moon acts suspiciously like it cares about perspective but only for a finite amount when you travel infinite distances. Also, if this was an illusion completely incongruent with how they expect the Moon to act, they would have noticed and commented on it. Yet they haven't. If they had travelled infinite distances yet the Moon now only looks finitely closer, people would have noticed it and pointed it out when they decided to talk about how big the Moon looks. Yet they haven't.
I will also remind you what the purpose of the Fake Moon was: to trick people on the ground. As it was previously stated, Eirin didn't expect people to actually get to Eientei to solve this, so this Fake Moon was only designed to trick those who would see the moon from a sane, normal distance. It has no reasons to act this way for people going through the infinite corridor. And... why? Why would it even act that way? Why would Eirin bother making this illusion act like moving towards made it bigger to people travelling infinite distances? This would be a dead give away that the corridor is fake and tricking you. This is a straight up detriment to her plan.
Like, the Occam's Razor is gonna have to intervene at some point. If you go with the "the IN corridor is just an illusion", then the most straightforward explanation is that the corridor is not infinite. Not that it's infinite but Eirin has edited the Fake Moon illusion to look different as you get infinitely closer to it even though no one was supposed to get infinitely close to it and that doing that would instantly sell the illusion out to those it's meant to trick. You're not trying to form a coherent model of what's happening here, you're using all the assumptions you can to fit the narrative of the corridor being physically infinite. Which, without the ULiL statements, relies entirely on a statement by Eirin.
I would also appreciate if the opposition would stop with the slanderous remark and insinutions regarding my "good faith". I'm aware that certain members present here are in contact with a certain banned user known for heated debates regarding this verse. It's not something I would have wished to bring up normally, but if people are getting passive aggressive at me to get their point across again, I think we're gonna have a problem.
Now if you'll excuse me @Kirbonic_Pikmin I'll answer you later because gods know I need to sleep.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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Entering a thread with only three people arguing against it, in which the OPs arguments have been severely ripped apart and shown to contain misinfo, providing no real reason or evidence for your take or issues with the feats, nor any responses to the counter arguments that OP has received, and then saying “I don’t care if it offends”…. I knew this thread was gonna have a pretty terrible FRA train but this is ridiculous lol.
I don’t really care. I’m calling it how I see it. My interactions with a banned user don’t really matter here and in this debate, we’re two different people. I largely stopped using VSBW well before she got banned because I got sick of this site, how its users act, among the 27 layers of mod politics you need to understand to get anything done around here. I’m only here because I was asked by other supporters to be here.
I see you on site and I see you off site. I’ve seen how you compose your arguments and how you’ve run these threads. I’ve seen why you start these threads and the poor reasonings for why. I see how you’ve abandoned every thread as soon as you had too mush pushback against them and couldn’t counter them. I saw you plan this very thread and ask people to support it before they had ever even seen the arguments.
Your argument are disingenuous. You come off as disingenuous. Your behavior carries and people will remember things. Remarks aren’t slanderous if they’re true.
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Looks like the target audience of my annoyance arrived. I read the thread, and I've made my stance clear. If you want a different response, earn it with arguments that don't include "You're disingenuous!!!" every 3 seconds. I am only here because I wanted something to blow a bit of time away and this happened to be the thread I chose. So let me reiterate: I don't give a damn.
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Bro’s ice cold
Kirbonic_Pikmin
He/Him- 3,480
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If all you got from my arguments was “you’re disingenuous” then you very clearly didn’t read them, and instead read only my post towards Saikou. Not a word spoken about any of the back and forth, not a word spoken about the various scans Quib or I provided that countered Saikou’s args, nothing. Not sure what to tell you beyond that.
You made your stance clear but gave no actual reasoning for why, which is what earned my initial response, and is what expect to be a big issue going forwards. But hey, you don’t give a damn. Which is about what I expected.
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Desperate for me to argue with you, eh? When you just straight up dedicate an entire section of your debunk to say "this is disingenuous", it's useless drama-starting crap that frankly I don't think either you or Saikou have the enegy to pull out.
Do I think there's some good points on the other end? Yeah, that's why my vote isn't to drop Infinite entirely. There's a fairly air-tight argument for that. But infinite on it's own isn't air-tight in the slightest from this thread and the scans presented. If you don't like that take, join the crowd of people who don't like my takes on things while I have them anyway. We're entitled to our opinions, and I'm not exactly in a stellar mood at the moment. So get onto whatever you said you were busy with and leave me alone. I'll just "mark as read" your next post to me if there is one.
Quibster
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You did actually argue for it being an object that moved closer several times, and I’ve addressed this point twice already. In fact, here are some direct examples:
If you're changing your stance, at least provide scans to back up these claims. You've consistently argued for a physical component to the False Moon and suggested that Eiren "moves" it closer to the protagonists.
We know what actually prevents travel; Eirin outright states that it’s the Earth, turned into a sealed chamber by her spell, not the False Moon itself. OP’s insistence that the False Moon somehow blocks travel isn’t just misleading—it’s ignoring explicit information given in the source material. At this point, OP should know better. Instead of inventing implications, why not address what’s actually stated? The Earth becomes the sealed space, and the False Moon (an illusion) is merely a secondary component to that spell, not the barrier itself.
You’re inherently arguing for a tangible aspect of the False Moon by claiming it as an object (when its outright said to be an illusion), without any factual basis. Repeating this claim as if it’s true, despite direct contradictions from canon, doesn’t “logically” make it fact. Using contrived circular reasoning and spreading misinformation about the game is exactly why you’re receiving consistent push-back from people who do not agree with you!
Can you address anything directly? What are you even on about? You've been the manager of this verse for at least 5 years previously. Of course I'm going to be more critical of you, because you seemingly cannot get the facts of said verse straight. Implying that I'm incapable of forming my own opinions because of some "banned user" is just rude.
Responding more later in the day.
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Im just gonna tally the votes for now
Agree with infinite (9): Topaz404, kirbonic pikmin, quibster, shiroiyo, sdjlakjh, angelzewolf, overlorddonnely, nothingtodebatewith, speedblitzer50
Agree with mftl, possibly infinite (10): deidalius, DaReaperMan, Maverick Zero X, Dark Dragon Medeus, jinsye, TISSG7Redgrave, RethPo, saikou, planck69, armorchompy
Agree with infinite (9): Topaz404, kirbonic pikmin, quibster, shiroiyo, sdjlakjh, angelzewolf, overlorddonnely, nothingtodebatewith, speedblitzer50
Agree with mftl, possibly infinite (10): deidalius, DaReaperMan, Maverick Zero X, Dark Dragon Medeus, jinsye, TISSG7Redgrave, RethPo, saikou, planck69, armorchompy
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Incorrect. I am not planning to vote.
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I think I can go agree with infinite here from what I check
Eden_Warlock99
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Only staff votes count. Don't really see the point in listing non-staff votes.
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Thats why i highlighted them. if two staff agree and two staff disagree, then the user count takes priority. At least i assume thats how it works anyway idk :/
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Soo, even though my vote ultimately doesn't matter, I'm still casting it to say... yeah, no. Disagree with the downgrade. As people pointed out—like—everything in OPs "debunk" is either misinformed or presents an argument... literally not supported within canon, with some going so far as clashing with canon.
Two people already went in-depth detailing everything wrong. With Kirb even making pretty little titles for each sections. There ain't much else I can doAnd either way I'm remodeling a basement, so I don't have much time to debate.
Two people already went in-depth detailing everything wrong. With Kirb even making pretty little titles for each sections. There ain't much else I can do
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It doesn't work like that, no.
The thread simply is undecided unless both sides can reach a compromise.
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Ah okay got it. I can see why 80% of ctrs never reach a conclusion.
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Yeah I'm sorry Quibster but if you miss my point so hard and apparently can't tell the difference between "things look bigger as you get closer" and "a physical object is literally moving closer", then there isn't a lot I can do for you.
That's just not true though.
"If we remove the full moon from Earth, then the path between Earth and the Moon will be closed. A full moon from Earth is what makes it possible for them to come here. That's why the Lunarians only visit on nights with a full moon. If we corrupt that full moon... Earth will become a large, sealed chamber.
Thus, they hid the true moon from Earth, replacing it with a fake moon that will never be full."
From Kaguya's IN profile (and further supported by Eirin's statements). The Fake Moon and the sealing of the Earth are explicitly linked. Blocking the Full Moon away from Earth prevents travel to the Moon and vice-versa. That's just how it works.
At this point we're just going back and forth uselessly. You're not convincing me and I'm not convincing you. I don't particularly wish to entertain this further unless you bring up new, actually compelling arguments that don't revolve on accusing me of things over and over again.
Moving on to Kirbonic:
First off, I do not care if this was covered in previous threads. Bad argument being passed through supporters aggressively mobbing opponents until they get tired does not make them correct. If you're unable to actually defend your points when more people than the core Touhou fanbase on the wiki is involved, then these points might not have been so great to begin with.
Heaven is not some physical mass that exists above Earth and in-between the two celestial bodies. It's an Otherworld. It's another realm, even if it happens to be accessible above the clouds. It's like saying Earth is infinite because the Sanzu River is a location there. I don't have to tell you that floating masses of rocks existing around the entire Earth (including the Outside World), alongside those good old 6×10^125 yoajans tall Buddhas aren't visible from the ground normally.
Hell, we have an explicit case of characters going to the Moon without passing through heaven. The whole plot of Silent Sinner in Blue revolves around the protagonists taking a rocket to the Moon. And the distance from Gensokyo to the Moon through this method is explicitly finite (see Chapter 11, page 15). There is not, in fact, an infinite distance between the Moon and Earth. You'd need explicit proof that the infinite corridor just got wedged in Heaven. And we have zero evidence of that. We have no evidence that the fake moon area is in Heaven. And since it's supposed to be between the Earth and Moon to block their access, it has no reasons to be. Since we know that travelling between the Earth and Moon doesn't involve going through Heaven.
You're correct about the Lunar Capital being its own thing and all. But the thing is that the distance to the Lunar Capital is not infinite either. I already brought this up before, but the rocket built by Patchouli was able to get there after flying a finite distance and just passing through the cloud layer. It has more specific requirements to access it, but when the path is open (such as on a full Moon, as was the case during IN), the distance is not infinite. Me bringing up the Outside World is mostly to cement the fact that the physical, celestial object is not infinitely far away from Earth either. It's finitely far away from Earth, regardless of if you're talking about the Outside World or Gensokyo.
I do not agree with this assessement at all, since it implies that the creation of Gensokyo somehow managed to enclose both the Lunarian Capital and Heaven as a whole. Which would be entirely nonsensical given the scope of Gensokyo's creation and how neither Heaven nor the Capital did anything against this spatial intrusion. This whole conversation the scan is from was about the Outside World. I don't think "they never left the barrier" means the Capital and Gensokyo share a border. In fact, in Kaguya's IN profile, it's been explicitly stated that the Lunarians couldn't have reached Gensokyo anyway because of the Hakurei Barrier:
"In the end, humans and youkai succeeded in dispelling the fake moon. But that wasn't a problem... Gensokyo was already sealed by the Hakurei border, so the Lunarians wouldn't have been able to enter Gensokyo to begin with."
They don't have the same barrier. The scan simply says that the protagonists moved straight from Gensokyo to the Lunar Capital without passing through the Outside World. Which is true, but as I've said the Gensokyo to Lunar Capital distance isn't infinite. And this doesn't have to involve Heaven being traversed, as we have zero proof of that happening in SSiB. The very idea that Heaven is an obstacle to Moon/Earth travel just isn't true. Those scans aren't enough to contradict the more explicit Moon/Earth travel. The "heavens" do not have indicate the actual realm of heaven as opposed to just the skies. And Heaven being accessible between Gensokyo and the Moon does not have to mean that physically travelling through it is neccessary for travel.
The explicit point of the corridor was to lead the protagonists to the Fake Moon. I've said this again and again. This is what Eirin has stated her goal to be and at no point does anything indicate that she just changed her plans when she saw that the protagonists have infinite speed. Nothing indicates that in the case of IN, having the protagonists lost in an infinite corridor was their goal. And while it's... unclear why that's her goal (one can speculate that the protagonists would be trapped there more effectively while keeping them away from the real Moon), it doesn't really matter when it is explicit that this was her intent.
Eirin refusing to turn off the Fake Moon has nothing to do with the infinite corridor being ended. These are two different spells, given that the corridor was summoned indepdently later in ULiL (unless you think the IN and ULiL corridors are entirely different, but I already said how this makes the feat even less valid). And having the Fake Moon up is the entire goal of the game's plot. The corridor is not, and was just a ploy to get the protagonists to be led astray.
The corridor spell being turned off or simply tweaked to merely extend the corridor a long but finite distance is simply the best conclusion one can come to when faced with a corridor that's very much impossible to exist, lacks any traits of an actual infinite corridor and was specifically designed for non-infinite purposes. While yes, it is a somewhat speculatory interpretation, speculations are needed when you have such blatant contradictions. And I think that "the corridor meant to lead the characters to the Fake Moon was not made to be actually infinite, unlike the version of the spell used in ULiL which was designed to keep people away from the end of the corridor" is a much more coherent and straightforward answer to the problem than saying that there is infinite room between the Earth and Moon (heavily contradicted) and that the Fake Moon would act as if it was approached a finite distance for no reasons whatsoever.
You haven't answered WHY the Fake Moon would act that way, though. You're just saying "well technically it could". Which is true. But why? If it's an illusion, it's an illusion with a precise goal of tricking people on the Earth that this fake Moon is the real deal. Which means that it would probably in fact act in accordance to perspective. But if moving infinitely closer to it only causes it to appear finitely closer, it fails at this goal. It's blatantly selling out to the protagonists that this is fake. The one casting this illusion, Eirin, has no reasons to design it that way. Yet you appear to argue that the skewed perspectives involved here would just randomly cause the Moon to appear in incongruent ways compared to the real Moon. When the opposite explanation that the Moon simply either is some hologram with a place in 3D space or a visual hallucination that works in accordance with regular perspective is a lot more congruent.
This isn't strictly about the visuals. We have explicit, concrete statements from the characters (namely Sakuya and Remilia) that the Moon appeared closer to them after getting out of the corridor. This isn't some silly visual error or simplification, this explicitly happens in-universe and the characters comment on it. And even that aside, "fiction doesn't always potray infinitely correctly" only works when this infinity is explicit and impossible to deny. This isn't the case here. It being infinite is contradicted due to other reasons and at the end of the day is only supported by Eirin's vague statements that do not have to be literal, and Miko's statement about another instance of this corridor with another goal entirely.
I don't know if you've noticed, but literally every single Touhou profile on the Wiki outside of two of them are Infinite speed. Nearly all of them. Anything from a regular non-combatant human, to an outside world human, to a fodder fairy, anything. This isn't "well some people can bypass it", this is EVERYONE can bypass it.
Even if you want to limit it to the people that should actually scale to it, that's still too many people. Marisa and Youmu aren't exceptional enough that everyone scaling to them being able to bypass infinite barriers. If every single Moon Rabbit can bypass it, if every single Oni can bypass it, if a well trained human or a random witch in the wood can bypass it, it's not a good defense. And everyone acting like it is shows that so many people being infinite is... unlikely. If Kaguya's defenses can only stop people below their rabbit servant (Reisen), then it's not very good. Small fry doesn't need to be deterred away from a secluded mansion in the middle of dangerous woods with things of this magnitude.
This is even truer for the Sanzu river. Keep in mind that Komachi's statement about the river being infinite for the living was said in a way to keep the protagonists away. Why would Komachi act as if the river being infinite is a huge deal that would stop the protagonists, when being infinite speed is just that easy?
I will also note that the chapter talking about the defense Kaguya put up at Eientei already implies that Marisa should have been stopped by it, and only got in because of Mokou showing her around. So Marisa just being able to blitz past these tricks is, again, highly unlikely.
I started these threads because the Touhou profiles are in a horrible state. If you think that's a "poor reason", then I don't know what to say to you. And as luck would have it, dealing with a notoriously rabid fanbase lead by a notoriously aggressive user is absolutely not pleasant, and not something I'm willing to put up with unless people outside the Touhou fanbase come in and give their own thoughts. Letting a small community of like-minded individuals control the state of profiles of a verse on the Wiki by mobbing those trying to make changes is far, far from an ideal state for a Wiki. Making sure that people properly give input to a thread is not a crime or a sin. It's just how you get things done.
In general, I'll have to pull the Occam razor again. Because at this rate, this is how I see this dillema:
1. This corridor had an eternity-based spell cast on it to arbitrarily extend it to a finite length in order to lead invaders to a specific location to trap them there, as was the stated intention of this corridor. The Miko statement refers to another instance of this spell with another goal entirely, and Eirin's own statements are not literal, as very long and looping things are not uncommonly referred to as "endless".
2. This corridor is physically infinite, even though the plan for it was for the protagonists to reach a specific place at the end of it. Even though there is not enough room in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital for an infinite corridor, and it going through Heaven is entirely unsupported. Even though the Moon seen outside the corridor appears to obey the perspective of a finitely far away (and using illusions to make it appear that way has only drawbacks to the creator of the illusion). Even though the characters explicitly note that this endless corridor ends. Even though none of the characters involved even remotely act like this is a massive speed feat. Even though the characters being infinitely fast would make this character pointless at guarding Eientei outside of small fry.
Both require assumptions. But the former requires less, on top of not needing to interpret all of those characters as having infinite speed.
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Probably doesn't matter since I'm a "rabid touhou fan," but for the record I obviously disagree with the downgrade, given the multitude of scans given by Kirbonic and Quibster to explain both the cosmology and how several abilities function within the series.
Though considering I helped put one of these feats in and aided in the initial research for others, ofc I disagree.
Though considering I helped put one of these feats in and aided in the initial research for others, ofc I disagree.
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Okay so since this is still going on im just gonna bring up consistency:
Infinite speed:
Sanzu river feat which is mostly just implied to be infinite when they cross it
Infinite corridor feat (more questionable and speculatory though still implied in dialogue to be "endless", staff agreeing to remove it though is still being debated)
Both instances not really telling us how they just casually crossed it or implying sheer speed but isnt completely off the table for at least one of them.
Ftl-Mftl:
Relativistic feat for weaker fairies
All of the characters in this calculation performing or scaling to light attacks (ftl to mftl)
Sakuya stated to be faster than light (ftl)
fairies and protagonists traveling and fighting through dream world at interstellar speeds (mftl+)
Moon rabbits traveling through the same dream world frequently on missions to earth (mftl+)
Aya outrunning her own camera flash to take a picture of herself (i remember this being a thing but i cant remember or find it so correct if im wrong. She regularly dodges thoughtography though so) (ftl)
Page 357 Marisa saying her mini hakkero is lightspeed or faster and yorihime deflecting it and referring to them as lasers afterwards (other characters struggling with this attack fyi) (ftl or higher)
So ignoring anything thatd be below relativistic, thats well over 7 showings of faster than light. And only 1 or 2 showings of possibly infinite. At this point i dont really see any reason to not go with the middle option aside from just deciding whether to list the corridor feat or not.
Infinite speed:
Sanzu river feat which is mostly just implied to be infinite when they cross it
Infinite corridor feat (more questionable and speculatory though still implied in dialogue to be "endless", staff agreeing to remove it though is still being debated)
Both instances not really telling us how they just casually crossed it or implying sheer speed but isnt completely off the table for at least one of them.
Ftl-Mftl:
Relativistic feat for weaker fairies
All of the characters in this calculation performing or scaling to light attacks (ftl to mftl)
Sakuya stated to be faster than light (ftl)
fairies and protagonists traveling and fighting through dream world at interstellar speeds (mftl+)
Moon rabbits traveling through the same dream world frequently on missions to earth (mftl+)
Aya outrunning her own camera flash to take a picture of herself (i remember this being a thing but i cant remember or find it so correct if im wrong. She regularly dodges thoughtography though so) (ftl)
Page 357 Marisa saying her mini hakkero is lightspeed or faster and yorihime deflecting it and referring to them as lasers afterwards (other characters struggling with this attack fyi) (ftl or higher)
So ignoring anything thatd be below relativistic, thats well over 7 showings of faster than light. And only 1 or 2 showings of possibly infinite. At this point i dont really see any reason to not go with the middle option aside from just deciding whether to list the corridor feat or not.
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I'm not going to go on an all-out debate on this, but you are explicitly ignoring the memory layer's purpose, that does not allow 'loops' to exist in the first place, hence why Sakuya can't actually rewind time to re-live things that were already recorded in the memory layer. I don't see it addressed in any of your posts, but you dare pull the "Occam's Razor" while you actually ignored a key point of the cosmology to prove your point. :/
Just like how you "ignored" the fact that Sanzu River was stated to hold infinite amount of water and gone with "length" as the only part that could be infinite. Just like how you ignored the plot point of IN and WBaWC as well.
Kinda wish we've got a Discussion Rule done on these "eternally recurring infinite speed battle issues™" before Fujiwara bit the dust, but oh well.
Just like how you "ignored" the fact that Sanzu River was stated to hold infinite amount of water and gone with "length" as the only part that could be infinite. Just like how you ignored the plot point of IN and WBaWC as well.
Kinda wish we've got a Discussion Rule done on these "eternally recurring infinite speed battle issues™" before Fujiwara bit the dust, but oh well.
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I'm actually glad to see this response. For many reasons, but most importantly because it's the simplest showcase of the problem in the... "remove infinite speed" side? I guess?
Ignoring the river, since it seems the common consensus is that it is valid.
You need tangible evidence to make claims.
- The infinite corridor is described as... uh... infinite—duh.
- The characters visually reach a different location, and we are later told they had reached the end (as illogical as that is) of said corridor.
- Nothing in any scenes regarding said corridor mentions it was shortened or ended, which people have pointed out—
And brought up a valid point for. (Especially since one of the culprits already expressed disinterest in doing as the protags ask... and it'd make that character stupid—).
And I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain how the characters clearly did not dispel the corridor themselves.
You can argue two speculations for "pro-infinite." That reaching the end of an infinite corridor requires infinite speed... and that the culprits didn't randomly cancel the purpose of the corridor without mentioning it.Hell, 90% of the arguments are things directly said.
Contrary to the "anti-infinite" side, which has wildly more speculations that are either baseless or... like... downright wrong...? No offense, but many of the "anti-infinite" sources,when they actually bother to source things, barely support their arguments, if even that.
Literally every single one of these doesn't place a cap on the characters. The majority of those are done with little effort... they just do it and don't treat it like a big deal. When is it a big deal? When is effort actually implied for any of the relevant folks?I mean, besides when they cross or have to cross infinite distances.
Okay, so I need your help real quick. For one, I need you to give me a source/scan about this "(other characters struggling with this attack fyi)" because going "trust me, teehee" just doesn't work. Especially when the opposition have shown to be less than trustworthy when it comes to this—
Outside of that. I'd like for you to break down why this supports your side. Unless that attack is speed of light, this point doesn't prove anything besides "The characters are consistently really fast."Unless someone has evidence to suggest a specific speed tier for the Master Spark.
—
This is the problem with the thread. It is insane to see one side present an onslaught of scans and go into depth to support themselves, while the other side just doesn't, and rely solely on assumptions... but somehow both sides are labeled "equally," come on.
Ignoring the river, since it seems the common consensus is that it is valid.
You need tangible evidence to make claims.
- The infinite corridor is described as... uh... infinite—duh.
- The characters visually reach a different location, and we are later told they had reached the end (as illogical as that is) of said corridor.
- Nothing in any scenes regarding said corridor mentions it was shortened or ended, which people have pointed out—
And brought up a valid point for. (Especially since one of the culprits already expressed disinterest in doing as the protags ask... and it'd make that character stupid—).
And I'd hope I wouldn't have to explain how the characters clearly did not dispel the corridor themselves.
You can argue two speculations for "pro-infinite." That reaching the end of an infinite corridor requires infinite speed... and that the culprits didn't randomly cancel the purpose of the corridor without mentioning it.
Contrary to the "anti-infinite" side, which has wildly more speculations that are either baseless or... like... downright wrong...? No offense, but many of the "anti-infinite" sources,
Literally every single one of these doesn't place a cap on the characters. The majority of those are done with little effort... they just do it and don't treat it like a big deal. When is it a big deal? When is effort actually implied for any of the relevant folks?
Okay, so I need your help real quick. For one, I need you to give me a source/scan about this "(other characters struggling with this attack fyi)" because going "trust me, teehee" just doesn't work. Especially when the opposition have shown to be less than trustworthy when it comes to this—
Outside of that. I'd like for you to break down why this supports your side. Unless that attack is speed of light, this point doesn't prove anything besides "The characters are consistently really fast."
—
This is the problem with the thread. It is insane to see one side present an onslaught of scans and go into depth to support themselves, while the other side just doesn't, and rely solely on assumptions... but somehow both sides are labeled "equally," come on.
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I'd take Infinite water = Infinite size with a grain of salt. Plenty of things and locations in fiction contain an infinite amount of water or can produce infinite water. It could be that the river is bottomless or that it magically produces an endless source of water, which wouldn't require having an infinite size.
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For the sakuya one well. Why would they even call sakuya "faster than the speed of light" as if it were something impressive or even noteable when she (and supposedly everyone else) are infinitely faster? Thats like me looking at a cheetah and saying "theyre faster than a snail, dang". Same way someone like dyspho in dbs saying hes faster than light is an anti feat (though in that case its ignored because mftl+ is more consistent)
The relativistic feat the fairies blatantly struggle with.
The marisa part i should word better. Her master spark moves faster than all her other attacks, which she treats that way in the scene and is faster in gameplay, and in gameplay you normally have to aimdodge the attack to avoid it (least in non fighting ones).
So, yknow, itd be weird for it to be infinitely slower. That and the scene treats it as being impressive
And the calculations are just the fact they use lightspeed attacks in spellcard matches and that and the rest are based on consistency.
For the anti feats, the IN time limit isnt really gameplay mechanics, considering it actually has bad ends and affects the stories outcome and can happen.
Also didnt reimu when trapped in avici have no way out till kasen arrived? Despite her being able to blitz her way out of infinite spaces twice?
As for the corridor from what ive seen, it was in reimus scenario mentioned to be "endless", and "eternal" a couple other times. But before i go further, weirdly this bit of dialogue in the scenario implies the corridor is also an illusion? Could you explain that before i misunderstand something?
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I reckon it's probably because she's... faster. Being "faster than" is a broad range; it could literally mean anything from 1.25x to any number beyond. I'd hope no one here would expect the writers to go, "Boy, sure glad Sakuya can move at infinite speeds."
You'd have a decent argument if the quote were "Can move at lightspeed," as that acts as a hard cap, and thus an anti-feat needed to be considered. The problem is that it simply doesn't. It gave us a broad range, and we'd have to use the series to determine what would make the most sense. In fact, this only tells us what we already know... Sakuya is hella fast, and it doesn't make sense to use this because,
A) The statement is vague by nature, only telling us what we already know without helping us determine a sensical limit.
B) Your snail example is, unironically, true.
What the manga did is exactly that. You made this comment because the snail is astronomically slower than a Cheetah... and as we know, light is astronomically slower than Sakuya. Not only would the snail example only work if the difference in speed wasn't so drastic between the two pairings, but it is also fundamentally flawed as snails aren't known for their speed, more like lack thereof. Light, however, is known as something really really fast. Light is also usually the first thing people think of when they picture the "Fastest thing in real life." Why wouldn't the writer use "Can move faster than the speed of light"? You are also correct, to an extent, regarding Dyspo... yes. We use research and reasoning to determine what the broad "Move faster than light" can amount to instead of slapping "FTL" on there and calling it a day.
No offense to my favorite fairy, Luna, but didn't they lose a 3v1 against Cirno? They ain't even good enough to join their Touhou brethren in the "infinite" rating and are stuck at "possibly infinite."
I don't recall a single time Marisa was renowned for her speed or the speed of her attacks. I have seen many mentions of her having loads of firepower but never speed. Do you have something I haven't seen? Like... anything regarding the characters, talking highly of the speed of Marisa's Master Spark? What do you even mean by "infinitely slower"? Marisa's Master Spark has no hard-capped speed. If you're arguing that it's SoL, then the characters don't struggle with it because everyone is beyond that speed. Whether infinite or finite, the Master Spark would only be a threat if the characters hover near the lower end of the FTL category, which they do not. If you're arguing, it's faster than light... again, we know. That isn't a cap; it's a minimum. It would scale to whoever character struggles against it.
Does SSiB actually treat it like a big deal? The only person who hypes up the speed of light is Marisa, and yet not only could she respond to her own attack, not only did Yorihime do the same, but no one, not even Marisa, expressed surprise when the Master Spark was countered. You'd think that if that technique were something people struggled with, something in the narrative would've hinted at it. It just isn't that big of a deal.
I understand... and you'd have a point if 99% of all FTL - MFTL feats weren't done casually. Consistency only works if the characters show effort in performing those feats. This is like saying that I am stuck within, I don't know, a 5m/s range because I consistently walk everywhere. This has no bearing on my sprinting speed. What is consistent is that the majority of speed feats that fall below infinite are done without a second thought... and things that fall within the infinite range garner complaints from the characters... even if it's just them complaining, that's still more than even MFTL achieves.
Right. I imagine having to explore four directions is more complicated than going in a straight line... (Five if you count up, I guess), and I'm like... 60% confident there was only one exit where Reimu was. At least Kasen used a specific entrance and it was described as the only one opened. She crossed an infinite river and reached the end of an infinite corridor... those aren't quite the same as hunting for a specific exit that could be north, south, west, or east from her.
No. You can scroll up to the 42nd post, aka Kirbonic's, for any questions regarding the Corridor. This isn't me giving an attitude; it's more like any questions I can answer are guaranteed to get more accurate and detailed
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I'm cooked on this point as I misremembered it, so editing this.
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I see no reason for that dialogue to not say "is infinitely fast" or even "faster than everybody else" if the series sees them as infinite. And the broad range argument would work for not contradicting things like interstellar travel. But when youre in an entirely different realm of speed like infinite, saying shes ftl, in a scene thats supposed to show off how fast she is in comparison to everybody else is redundant. And it proves the series doesnt consistently see the characters around her at that fast either.
Also "what we already know"? Id hate to break it to you but almost nobody who plays and reads touhou that isnt deep into powerscaling "knows" these chars are ftl much less infinite. The series doesnt make it clear outside these rare instances. But infinite is never made abundant at all which again, is why i argue consistency.
Snails arent known for their speed? Lets change the example then. It would be like having a scene where ultra instinct goku blitzes everyone around him and it says "faster than the speed of sound", or having wally west flash blitzing everyone and having text saying "faster than light". Its redundant for those characters because theyre already portrayed as having way above speed. With sakuya its not redundant to show off, because the series doesnt narratively paint them out as being infinite speed with even their two infinite feats not making it clear theyre using speed to bypass the river or corridor. Hence why i support a "possibly" or likely rating.
If infinite debate goes nowhere i hope we can at least agree to remove infinite speed for the non 2-Cs and non moon rabbits and change that to possibly mftl+
I thought i already rephrased my point and brought up the fact that it straight up moves faster in game than other danmaku which yes, is capable of tagging other characters. And wasnt the whole point of that arc kinda showing off how much above everyone yorihime was? Marisa was hyping up her own ability being light speed wasnt the only thing about it.
Dw ive been doing the same. I hate bible chapters and hate debating.
I mean, hell is composed of countless otherworlds arent they? It doesnt sound like itd be hard to fly in a single direction and blitz into another universe.
Thats not the question im asking. Ive read the post and scans. Just because she can create an infinite corridor and normally does that doesnt mean shes incapable of affecting its size or using a different kind of corridor entirely. Thats why im asking about eirin implying its an illusion.
Although i dont think "finite distance with earth and moon" is an issue since touhou supports things being bigger on the inside than outside a lot.
The issue i have with the feats being concrete aside from the series not making it clear that they actually did this by flying infinitely fast, is that eirin also sort of implies she didnt intend to fully stop them.
Here she implies she purposefully led them outside.
And here she basically calls it a passage from fake moon to earth. Passage by definition being "the action or process of moving through or past somewhere on the way from one place to another." Which means it was intended to have a beginning and end to it. So itd be weird for them to make it infinite when theres no implication they were trying to physically trapping them in the corridor.
Youre forgetting the sanzu river still varies in size. The only reason the th9 feat is useable is because they said they made it infinite at the time
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That's textbook infinite size tho lol.
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You can actually, if there are 3 or more of these attempted downgrades, including this.
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I am holding no position here, but if this is completely rejected and infinite speed remains like it is rn, then a Discussion Rule should be made if there are multiple threads besides this one. Just saying this.
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Touhou 17 plot is clearly absent of Komachi and Yama though, so assuming that the river's distance isn't, for living humans, infinite is actually a burden of proof should be on the side that should prove it's otherwise. (Again, Marisa pre-18th key is pretty much an ordinary human with magic lol)
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I don't really think so, Eiki was the one who sent Kutaka to assess the heroines which means that she would have been close by during the incident.
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No. The broad range argument works... for being broad range. You can't reasonably place a cap to say, "Yeah, no. They're stuck at this level because—" for the sole reason that our tiering do not exist in an author's mind...
No matter what speed you place her, that line is redundant because everyone is at that level in the verse. This doesn't prove a single thing you mention. All it proves is that the series accepts things (in this case, Sakuya) as faster than light. That's it. It is up to us to determine what that range is.
I did not think I'd need to specify that we, in this thread, on the vs forum that accept these characters as faster than light, "already know." I've been on the Touhou subreddit; trust me, I know what non-powerscalers think.
Consistency only works if the characters have shown effort in what you are presenting. They do not. This goes back to my earlier example. You wouldn't use someone's walking speed to indicate their top speed. What is consistent is the fact that these FTL - MFTL feats don't cause them to sweat, pant, comment, or even raise an eyebrow. However, they do display some level of effort when crossing infinite distances. Sure, they don't pant or anything, but they actually complain and react to it. If you want to argue consistency, then the most sensical question is "Why do these characters only imply effort when it comes to these handful of feats
You mean like Dyspo?
I'm sorry, but again, no. The narrative does make it clear that they flew. They were flying; there was zero indication of anything besides speed being used, and it didn't suddenly end until they "reached the end." as stated repeatedly. It is up to the opposition to prove something besides what we see and are told exists. A factor not as clearly presented as the most blatant one. Which the OP, and no one else, has yet to do.
I have no opinion on this. This is probably the only aspect of infinite speed I wouldn't argue for or against since it is a bit sus.
I mean... yeah? I'm not arguing that Yorihime isn't far above everyone.
Even if we assume Reimu could escape... she would still be in hell? That wouldn't solve her situation. She'd just be in another part of Hell or another hell.
And again, I'm not even sure if Reimu flew, or if she did, for how long. She's seen on her feet with a torch ignited. I reckon it wouldn't be at her top speed even if she flew, considering the torch would've been put out.
Again, when it comes to the nitty-gritty of it, I would rather someone else answer as I'm not super knowledgeable and mostly call out things I deem unreasonable. Best to leave it to the professionals than waste staff time talking about things I barely understand, ya know?
