Infinite/Immeasurable Speed Touhou: Round 2

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Honestly it's kinda astonishing how fast I was able to put this together lmao

Due to the chaotic nature of the ups and downs CRT, it was decided that the arguments for 2-C and infinite/immeasurable speed would be covered in new threads, and I'm here to tackle the latter. I will not be covering Kaguya's instantaneous movement & multiple timelines, Suika's Heaven shattering attack, or Youmu's infinite moon slash as those have already been discussed and rejected, and no new evidence was brought up to support them, unlike some other feats here.

I also wanna thank everyone whose scans I used in this thread, notably @Mobi2 and @Hecatia_Gaming. If you see a scan that you originally posted in here and you're not credited, that is not meant as a personal slight against you, I just have a ******* horrendous memory.

And I swear to god if I see one person bring up background scrolling or Marisa's quote about "nothing can surpass the speed of light" as evidence for a debunk I'm gonna lose my ******* mind.

Sanzu River Crossing
This should be fairly simple. In WBaWC, the protagonists travel across the Sanzu River to reach Higan.

	Urumi Ushizaki DEFEATED
	BGM: 石の赤子と水中の牛	BGM: The Stone Baby and the Submerged Bovine
	古代魚の子連れ番人 牛崎 潤美	Parental Guardian of Ancient Fish Urumi Ushizaki
	Urumi Ushizaki ENTERS
	BGM: ロストリバー	BGM: Lost River
	御影石の赤子 Cross the Styx	A Baby Carved from Granite ~ Cross the Styx
	三途の河	Sanzu River
Reimu	いつになったら向こう岸に着くのかな	It's taking me forever to reach the other side...
???	三途の河 (こんなところ) に 生身の人間とは	I never thought I'd see a flesh and blood human in the Sanzu River (a place like this) .
???	凶暴な魚に引きずり込まれたいのか？	Are you looking to get dragged down by some savage fish?
Reimu	その角は……鬼？	Those horns... Are you an oni?
Urumi	まあそんなようなもんだ 今なら安全に送り返してやっても 良いんだが……	Well, yeah, somethin' like that. If you want to turn back now, I can send you home safely...
Reimu	結構よ 魚なんか、その場で捌いてやるから	I'm fine, thanks. If it's just fish I'll have to deal with, I'll filet 'em no problem.
Urumi	そうか、なら丁度良い	That so? Fine by me, then.
Urumi	遠慮無く 愛しの古代魚達の餌にしてやろう	I won't hold back when I turn you into food for my beloved ancient fish!
Urumi	道に迷ったわけではないのね	Well, I guess you aren't just some lost traveler.
Reimu	私の目的地は地獄なの その為に河を渡っているだけよ	For your information, I'm headed to Hell! Crossing the river is just one step along that path.
Urumi	生きたまま地獄に行くとは 想像するだけで身震いがするよ	A living person going to Hell...? Just the thought of that makes me shudder.
Reimu	おや？ あんた、てっきり地獄の鬼かと思ったわ	Huh? Oh. I was sure you were a Hell oni.

Of course, I need to address the elephant in the room: The idea that the Sanzu River is only infinite when Komachi uses her spatial hax on it, meaning it has a variable size and cannot be used for speed feats. There is ample evidence to suggest that this is not the case, and the distance one must cross to reach Higan is ALWAYS infinite (for certain people, at least).

Let's start with the most recent piece of evidence: In Gouyoku Ibun, Kanako clearly states that the Sanzu has an infinite water supply. In order to hold such a supply, the Sanzu must be infinite in at least some capacity. It could be argued that this could just be depth, but this is wrong for reasons I'll get to shortly.

Kanako	……凄い 灼熱地獄が冷劫化している どうやってこれだけの水量を？ 幻想郷が保有している水量を 超えている気もするが……	...Amazing. The Hell of Blazing Fires is completely cooled-off. How could they have gotten this much water? I get the sense that this is more water than Gensokyo even holds...
Kutaka	これはまた大きな仕事になりそうね これじゃあ、三途の河ならぬ三途の滝ね	Seems like we have another big job on our hands... It's more of a Sanzu Waterfall than a Sanzu River at this point.
Kanako	誰だ？	And you are?
Kutaka	私は庭に渡わたり久く侘た歌か 異界との住来を見張っています 貴方は？	My name is Kutaka Niwatari. I oversee passage to and from Otherworlds. What's your name?
Kanako	ニワタリ神でしたか これはこれは…… 失礼、私は八坂神奈子 山の神です	You're Niwatarijin? Goodness me... My apologies. I'm Kanako Yasaka, a mountain god.
Kutaka	三途の河底に穴を開けたのは 何故ですか？	May I ask why you opened a hole in the Sanzu's riverbed?
Kanako	ほほう、三途の河底…… なる程、三途の河なら無限の水量がある	Oho, the Sanzu's riverbed... I see. The Sanzu River does have an infinite water supply.
Kutaka	これを利用して、地獄へと 行こうというのですか？	Are you trying to take advantage of this in order to make your way to Hell?
Kanako	これをやったのは 私ではないけど…… そんなことは貴方には 関係無いわね 私はこれを利用して地の底へと 向かおうとしているんだから	Well, I'm not the one who did this... But I suppose that doesn't matter to you. I am taking advantage of it to make my way underground, after all.

In PoFV, Komachi clearly states that the width of the Sanzu is infinite for living people. This is important as it tells us that the variable size of the river only applies to those who need to be ferried across it after their death. Of course, I shouldn't have to explain that every character we've seen cross the river is alive.

Komachi	判ったよ。 のんびり仕事をするのを邪魔するのなら 容赦はしない。 さっさと帰れ。生きた人間にとって、 三途の川は無限大の幅だ！　渡らせない！	Is that so? I will show no mercy to those that interrupt my laid-back pace of working. Return! For living humans, the width of the Sanzu river is infinite! I won't let you cross!

If that weren't enough, BAiJR makes it very clear that the amount the distance changes is dependent on how much Komachi is paid, with the river being infinitely wide for those who pay nothing at all. In both PoFV and WBaWC, nobody gives Komachi any money, so the river would have to be infinite in both these scenarios (In fact, Komachi wasn't even in WBaWC).

河幅は、人によっては一瞬で終わったり何時まで経っても渡れない事もある。

The breadth of the river, depending on the person, can take either a short instant to cross or an infinitely long time.

渡し賃が多ければ多いほど、距離は短いと言うわけだ。	The more you pay the ferryman, the shorter the distance.
それは綺麗な反比例の曲線を描き、渡し賃が０に近いときは限りなく無限大に近づき、渡し賃が多ければ幅は限りなく０に近づく」	Plotting the curve of this inversely proportional function, we see that the closer to 0 you pay the ferryman, the closer the distance approaches infinity; the more you pay, the closer the distance approaches 0."

TL;DR: the Sanzu River's default state is one of infinite width, and multiple characters have crossed it while it was in this state.

Higan Crossing
This one is also pretty simple; In WBaWC, the protagonists cross Higan in order to enter Hell.

	地獄関所の番頭神 庭渡 久侘歌	Clerical God of Hell's Checkpoint Kutaka Niwatari
	BGM: 不朽の曼珠沙華	BGM: Everlasting Red Spider Lily
	鬼渡の関所 Lonely Amaryllis	Checkpoint of Oniwatari ~ Lonely Amaryllis
	彼岸	Higan
???	閻魔 (えんま) 様から話は聞いています 容赦無く、貴方を試しなさいってね！	I've heard about you from the Yama. She told me to test you with no mercy!
???	地獄へ行こうとしている だけありますね 中々の腕前でございます	Just as I'd expect from someone trying to get to Hell. You're quite skilled indeed.
Reimu	あんたは一体……？	Who are you...?
Kutaka	私は、久 (く) 侘 (た) 歌 (か) 地獄の関所を見張っています	I am Kutaka. I watch over the border checkpoint of Hell.
Reimu	なるほど、地獄の門番ね じゃあ話は簡単だわ 私はその地獄に行きたいのよ 通してくれる？	Ah, so you're Hell's gatekeeper. Well, that makes things simple. I'm trying to go in there. Mind letting me through?

According to Akyuu, Higan is endless.

Yes, I am aware that other statements regarding the size of Otherworlds coming from Akyuu have been rejected, but they were rejected on the basis of her phrasing and how it could imply the statement itself was just speculation or a rumor. However, no such context exists for this quote, so it is safe to say that it is being said with a much greater degree of confidence and certainty than her statement regarding the Netherworld.

There's not a whole lot to say on this one tbh.

Infinite Corridor Door Sealing (Rejected)
So in Imperishable Night, once the protagonists reach Eientei, they find Reisen right after she finishes sealing up every door in Kaguya's corridor.

In the same stage, we clearly see a corridor with a seemingly endless amount of shut doors, so this is certainly the infinite corridor and not some other section of Eientei.


This same corridor is stated to be infinite on several occasions.

	Miko starts doing something flashy
Miko	月の民に話があって やってきたんだが なるほど……永遠に続く廊下か これは微少な時空の隙間を 無限に繋げる力だな 月の民の力だろうな	Well, I'm here to speak with the People of the Moon. Ah, I see... a corridor that continues endlessly? Made with a power that infinitely links miniscule gaps in space-time together. The power of the Moon's residents, to be sure.
Reisen	本当、道士ってのは 自己完結していて 他人の迷惑を顧みない奴ね	You Taoists really do just sustain yourselves alone and pay no attention to other people's concerns, don't you.
Miko	……という事は 空間を扱う仙術の一種 という訳だ	...So I ought to use a type of hermit art that absorbs space, then.
Miko	私の手にかかれば この永遠の廊下の術を破るのは さほど難しい事では無い そこの兎！ 今からこの無限の罠を打破するが よろしいか？	If left up to me, breaking through this endless-corridor spell is hardly anything difficult. You! The rabbit over there! I'm about to break down this infinite trap; you don't mind, do you?

Eirin	ここは偽の月と地上の間。 さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を 結ぶ偽物の通路。 貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に 騙されてここまで来たのよ。	This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here.

Now there are two big counterarguments to address here; namely, the fact that Kaguya could've just 'looped' a section of the corridor with the doors already closed and that Reisen could've used her psychic powers as opposed to movement speed. I'll address the latter first.

First off, none of Reisen's psychic abilities would allow her to seal the doors in the corridor. All of her abilities are directly affecting people's minds; there is not a single instance of her ability being used to physically affect the world around her. So sealing off the doors with telekinesis or some unknown psychic ability is a no-go. But even if we give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she has access to some never-before-seen psychic powers, this still wouldn't work. Her abilities, like with all moon rabbits, have only been shown to have up to planetary range. So this argument relies on the assumption that Reisen has some unseen and unexplained ability that allows her to close an infinite number of doors across an infinite distance despite her range capping out at planetary. This is completely absurd and makes far too many assumptions to be used as a genuine counterargument.

Onto Kaguya's corridor looping; it's not possible. Creating a space-time loop is something that is literally impossible for someone to do in Touhou. It's just the laws of the verse. And no, it couldn't just be a spatial loop. You cannot affect space or time in Touhou without consequently affecting the other. Therefore, any attempted spatial loop, by its very nature, must also be a temporal loop by extension.

Here's a scan from CoLA describing the memory layer, and how its existence disallows history from repeating itself; in essence, a time loop. This should be pretty obvious when the text outright says the memory layer rejects loops.

Text from Sakuya's profile in PMiSS, stating that true time reversal (and by extension looping time) is impossible.

ただ、起きてしまった事を無かった事にするには、特殊な場合を除いて難しい。		However, it is generally rather difficult to revert things that have already happened.
物が壊れたり燃えてしまったり、食べてしまった等は時間を戻しても元には戻らない。		Things that have been destroyed, burnt down, eaten, etc. can not be returned to normal even if time is reversed.
時間が戻るのは移動していた物が元の位置に戻ったりする程度である。		Reversing time only has an effect to the extent that things that have been moved return to their original position.

Simply put, it would go against the established rules of the verse for Kaguya to have looped the corridor in any sense, so the corridor is a genuinely infinite structure. And Reisen sealed up every door inside of it, with no indication that she had some sort of previously unseen ability to help accomplish this, so it must have been via sheer speed.

S(olaris)akuya's Temporally Omnipresent Knives
yes i know this title sounds dumb shut up

Sakuya has two spell cards where her knives simultaneously manifest in the past, present, and future, and they're pretty easily dodged by the characters. Do I even need to elaborate here? This is a clear case of temporal omnipresence, which is exactly what Solaris has to justify its immeasurable rating (and some other Sonic characters' ratings). Granted, this is only attack speed for Sakuya, but other characters are clearly capable of dodging the spell cards.

---

And I think that's everything. If there are any other potential feats that you think should be discussed, please say so. Since we have 3 infinite speed feats and 1 (2 if you really wanna nitpick) immeasurable feat, I believe the verse's speed should be upgraded to "Infinite, possibly Immeasurable". Given how we treat speed scaling for Touhou, it seems like everyone should scale to these to at least some extent (for example, we scale fairies to Rei'sen, who should scale to Reisen).

If the ups and downs thread was a shitstorm, I can't say I'm eagerly awaiting whatever kind of hell this thread is gonna unleash.

---

Oh yeah this also feels relevant lmao

---

AGREE: OverlordDonnelly, OnsokunoSonic, Guardian_Doge, Kirbonic_Pikmin, Lord_JJJ, ShinyMagicalGirl (disagrees with immeasurable), Bobsican, Meganova_Stella, Promestein (disagrees with immeasurable, suggests a possibly rating)

DISAGREE:

NEUTRAL: DarkDragonMedeus (disagrees with immeasurable), HammerStrikes219

 

[Shmooply]

AH ****
Following.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I feel like one of these are my scans. Btw can you elaborate on how Sakuya Spellcard scales to other characters?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, they dodge them. Not a whole lot else to say there. I feel like in order to dodge an attack that simultaneously exists in the past, present, and future, you need at least some degree of immeasurable speed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, one thing I forgot to mention about Reisen's feat is this.

I know someone is gonna try to use this as a debunk so I just wanna say that this doesn't disprove anything. As Reisen says, she just forgot to seal one, not that she didn't have enough time or anything similar. Having infinite speed does not make you immune to having a poor memory or overlooking details.

Thank you @Shmooply for pointing this out.

 

[Shmooply]

Actually, hold the phone.
What's stopping Kaguya from... y'know, making the infinite corridor not infinite? She can "give" infinity to things, but she can also just as easily get rid of said infinity. What if when the incident solvers were spotted in Eientei, Reisen or somebody else told her to stop ******* around with the infinite corridor so that all the doors could be sealed shut?
inb4 a single scan proves me wrong

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

I had read through this previously, and I still agree with what is proposed. The fact that the MC herself has a fairly direct feat helps solidly it for me. Plus, Reimu is way too poor to pay a ferryman to lower the distance anyway it is very in-character for Reimu to just rush forward through things until she stops an incident, so it's more likely that she crossed the endless river, at least in my opinion.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, hold the phone.
What's stopping Kaguya from... y'know, making the infinite corridor not infinite? She can "give" infinity to things, but she can also just as easily get rid of said infinity. What if when the incident solvers were spotted in Eientei, Reisen or somebody else told her to stop ******* around with the infinite corridor so that all the doors could be sealed shut?
inb4 a single scan proves me wrong

There is an entire manga mostly dedicated to how lazy Kaguya is and how she will do everything in her power to avoid putting in even the slightest effort and instead leave everything to Reisen. It'd be fairly out of character for her to do this. Granted, I don't think it's completely impossible for Kaguya to have helped out, I just think it's unlikely due to how OOC it'd be.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

For the immeasurable, I think it could also be added that one of Keine's Spell Cards (Reincarnation "Ichijou Returning Bridge") apparently makes you move counter-tide the past, which would be basically moving through time itself. It also states the following:

So this is what danmaku looks like while you're gradually moving back to the past, huh?
But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time. Man, lasers really are the best.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That seems fairly explicit, don't know how I missed it. I guess this is what I get for trying to rush this CRT out as fast as possible.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Eh, I dunno much about Touhou and most of it seems fine, but nothing that I read here about Sanzu River indicates infinite size, at least not for everyone. The proof there is that it is infinite for humans, (Similarly to many fictional scenarios that a "curse" makes that something takes an infinite length in the view of anyone that doesn't meet certain criteria. For example: Super Mario 64's endless stairway, which isn't actually infinite, but is warped to be like that to whoever tries to climb it without fulfilling the prerequesite of stars in the castle) that it has an infinite water supply, and that some people may perceive it as infinite, which may or may not be tied to the ferryman, but could still refer to the fact that normal humans see it as infinite. None of these imply infinite size, maybe the last point, but very debatably so.

I also somewhat disagree on the corridor stuff. Or rather, to consider it infinite for certain. I'm fine with it being a possibility, but I can easily see it as flowery language.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

All 3 characters who crossed the Sanzu in Touhou 17 were human (Reimu and Marisa are human, and Youmu is half-human) so the infinite width thing definitely applies to them. I don't really see why the Sanzu would be finite yet have an infinite water supply either, though I'll admit it's not really a huge part of the argument being made. Compared to the Mario 64 staircase, it's like building up enough speed to get to the top without meeting the prerequisites.

As for the flowery language thing, Touhou tends to use words like infinite or endless a lot, so most of what we know about the cosmology and character's tiers are based on those sorts of statements. I probably can't convince you that it isn't flowery language, but not too long ago a downgrade attempt was made using the same basis and got rejected, so it seems like statements of infinite/endless sizes in Touhou are here to stay.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Regarding the perspective and so, it shouldn't make totally sense assume it as that way. If that's the case, then it wouldn't be necessary the ability of Komachi to manipulate space (distance) to make the travel fast for those who pays the fey, because that would be a perception thing, which is clearly not.

For the corridor, I don't see why it has to be flowery language when it's an explicit statement, that also comes from reliable sources that doesn't lie or exaggerate these kind of statements (one being a taoist with a great amount of knowledge in the taoist arts and that has the ability to perceive things beyond the usual sense, and the other being practically the most knowleadgable being of the verse that has a deep relation with Kaguya)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Eh, I dunno much about Touhou and most of it seems fine, but nothing that I read here about Sanzu River indicates infinite size, at least not for everyone. The proof there is that it is infinite for humans, (Similarly to many fictional scenarios that a "curse" makes that something takes an infinite length in the view of anyone that doesn't meet certain criteria. For example: Super Mario 64's endless stairway, which isn't actually infinite, but is warped to be like that to whoever tries to climb it without fulfilling the prerequesite of stars in the castle) that it has an infinite water supply, and that some people may perceive it as infinite, which may or may not be tied to the ferryman, but could still refer to the fact that normal humans see it as infinite. None of these imply infinite size, maybe the last point, but very debatably so.

There's a layer in Touhou that reject such thing as loops, doubt that it will happened, not to mention on how Komachi's power works, she extend space, not loop space around.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

The Sanazu river one is good, as I stated in ups and downs it's infinite in length by default, which is the distance reimu, marisa, etc traveled to get to higan. I don't really pay attention to the water supply statement, but the fact it's stated to also have infinite width twice as well should be valid in this context. It seems consistent for the characters to be using speed as well to reach the sanzu river and other places because it's described as a separate world from gensokyo, twice:
1)

山の裏側から行く事が出来る、言わずと知れた此岸と彼岸を分かつ河である（＊１９）。		On the other side of the mountain you can get to the well-known river separating this world and the next (*19).
幻想郷側は此岸で、河の向こうが彼岸である。		Gensokyo is on the side of the living, and Higan is on the opposite bank.

(cite note, 19: Incidentally, the place where the river flows isn't in Gensokyo, but you can get there from Gensokyo, so I am introducing it here)

You can only reach the sanzu river by a certain path, but it's never said reimu and the cast use it.

The next two things are from komachi's profile text from PoFV.
2)

A youkai that provides passage for the river between Gensokyo and Higan.

And here's the second infinite width statement.

Komachi always demands those she guides to pay all the money they have, and
anyone who hesitates to pay the full sum is dropped into the river midway through
the journey. The river is made infinitely wide, and the unfortunate spirit is soon consumed by huge fishes and water dragon which were extinct in world of the living

---

---

The Higan one is good, it's also described as a vast eternity.

---

---

The corridor one for me is iffy, since there could be a finite amount of doors, but nonetheless the corridor is still made from infinite miniscule gaps of space-time that link together, which means they also branch out into the rooms, since space is made from 3 dimensions of perspective (length, width and height.). Unless you want to argue the corridor is 2-D, which makes...well zero sense. The corridor still has doors throughout all of it. So, endless doors would make sense I guess.

---

---

Sakuya's Feat and Marisa's, the feats itself are fine, and should scale to the top tiers and MC's, since in one of them, they're freely moving time that is reversing. While linear time itself is compressed into the present.
Marisa's is also good, same thing kind of applies.

I'd like to point out a quick thing actually, marisa comments how the knives that compress form a straight line with their future and past self, like a laser, which means her analogy in dodging Keine's attack is consistent, the whole point is they can freely move outside of linear time if they choose to.


Anyway I agree, I'll get started on my 2-C CRT. And in it, I'll add mid-godly and abstract existence as additions for youkai.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

So, Infinite possibly Immeasurable then? Marisa's attack speed should be immeasurable and the people who dodge her Master Spark should also be immeasurable in reaction speed at least, wanna point that out.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Where’s immeasurable coming from again? Just asking for clarification as the OP confuses me kinda.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Where’s immeasurable coming from again? Just asking for clarification as the OP confuses me kinda.

Gotcha, basically the cast can freely move outside and through linear time, like time is reversing, yet they they're moving through it normally like it's the present for them. Outside linear time, comes from how sakuya compresses the future and past into her attack forming the linear flow of time, and the cast can dodge said attack, (movement through timelines, pretty much).

I was going to say possibly is fine, but we should wait for more opinions, yours is valued, as I remember you making a thread about speed at some point.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

What Doge said.

 

[Shmooply]

Quick bump.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

There's a layer in Touhou that reject such thing as loops, doubt that it will happened, not to mention on how Komachi's power works, she extend space, not loop space around.

I'm not saying she looped space. I'm saying that things got infinite only upon certain conditions. Again, fiction has multiple examples of spaces becoming infinite as long as those that try to cross them do not fulfill said requirements.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't see how this is relevant when the characters who crossed the Sanzu explicitly do not meet the requirements for the river to not be infinite. They're all living humans, and none of them give Komachi any money at any point, both of which would result in the Sanzu having an infinite length.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh right, should probably mention this. In Marisa and Youmu's TH17 routes, there are explicit references to how Komachi was not in any way involved with their crossing of the Sanzu. So they quite obviously crossed the entire infinite length due to being living humans and not paying Komachi (since, again, her lack of involvement is outright stated).

and Reimu is obviously too poor to pay Komachi in the first place

 

[Shmooply]

bump

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Bumps are only required after a 24 hour period, so we probably shouldn't do it excessively.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm kinda surprised this thread needed to be bumped at all, honestly. Kinda figured this topic would be controversial enough to sustain itself indefinitely.

I guess this is what happens when Malomtek isn't here.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'm not saying she looped space. I'm saying that things got infinite only upon certain conditions. Again, fiction has multiple examples of spaces becoming infinite as long as those that try to cross them do not fulfill said requirements.

They did tho? They're living beings that crossed the infinite sized river.

Also, put me on neutral for immeasurable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Andykhang]

For the "Reimu passing the Sanzu river" thing, could it be that she use her Space Manip to "jump" through the infinite space zone, kinda like she goes through a wormhole? Also isn't in TH17, they're explicitly being allowed crossing through hell into the Beast Realm by the Enma there, so they could have done something to allow them to pass through

 

[Pixy]

For the "Reimu passing the Sanzu river" thing, could it be that she use her Space Manip to "jump" through the infinite space zone, kinda like she goes through a wormhole? Also isn't in TH17, they're explicitly being allowed crossing through hell into the Beast Realm by the Enma there, so they could have done something to allow them to pass through

I don't remember Reimu has Space Manip tho and I never see she use it
Space Manip mostly own by " old people " (pls don't kill me) like Gods or Eirin's Gang

 

[Shmooply]

"i never saw her use it" isn't really a good argument.

For the "Reimu passing the Sanzu river" thing, could it be that she use her Space Manip to "jump" through the infinite space zone, kinda like she goes through a wormhole?

Except she obviously didn't use her spatial hax to get there, the scans even say so.

Also isn't in TH17, they're explicitly being allowed crossing through hell into the Beast Realm by the Enma there, so they could have done something to allow them to pass through

Scans?

 

[Andykhang]

I don't remember Reimu has Space Manip tho and I never see she use it
Space Manip mostly own by " old people " (pls don't kill me) like Gods or Eirin's Gang

She use it to jump through space and teleport, and it’s also part of her Barrier Manip which allow her to create the spell card Duplex barrier. Plus she’s also the manager and maintainer of the Great Hakurei Barrier, and she have certain authority over it, such as weaken it enough to accidentally let Rinnosuke from Gensokyo to the Outside World.

 

[Andykhang]

"i never saw her use it" isn't really a good argument.

Except she obviously didn't use her spatial hax to get there, the scans even say so.

Scans?

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Wily_Beast_and_Weakest_Creature/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario_(Wolf)

Kutaka:
Huhuhu.

Well, the Yama did say that
it's okay to let you through.

But I would hate to do something
as cruel as that, so ...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Way to take a quote out of context.

The quote is referring to Kutaka allowing Reimu to enter Hell, and makes no mention of the Sanzu River or Higan. It has minimal relevance to any of the feats here. So yes, Eiki is allowing them to 'pass through', but within the text this only extends to letting the protagonists enter Hell. There is 0 indication of weird space-time fuckery on her part.

Also if Reimu just teleported across the river, why exactly would she be fighting against Urumi?

Finally, this doesn't really address Marisa and Youmu's routes (and neither of them have OP spatial hax like Reimu does).

 

[Shmooply]

but youmu has time hax therefore she has space hax so gg ez
Once again Mokou takes the words out of my mouth, shaking my head.

 

[Andykhang]

Way to take a quote out of context.

The quote is referring to Kutaka allowing Reimu to enter Hell, and makes no mention of the Sanzu River or Higan. It has minimal relevance to any of the feats here. So yes, Eiki is allowing them to 'pass through', but within the text this only extends to letting the protagonists enter Hell. There is 0 indication of weird space-time fuckery on her part.

Also if Reimu just teleported across the river, why exactly would she be fighting against Urumi?

Finally, this doesn't really address Marisa and Youmu's routes (and neither of them have OP spatial hax like Reimu does).

Isn’t both the Sanzu River and Higan zone are in the management of the Yama group, as they employed Shinigami as toll booth for the River itself, and it was the Shinigami in the first place who place the infinite zone restriction (what with Komachi’s power implied, at the very least a Shinigami could have waive it pass as well)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, yes. But if you read the scans I previously posted, you'd know that Komachi had 0 involvement in the events of WBaWC, as Marisa and Youmu outright say as much.

Also, Eiki managing Higan/the Sanzu River doesn't prove that she used her spatial manipulation. She can do it, but she didn't. The text here makes it obvious that the extent of her influence in WBaWC was her telling Kutaka to allow the protagonists to go through the gate to Hell. Nothing in text states or implies she affected the size of any realm.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bump

 

[Shmooply]

bump 'em