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Len'en Project Revisions (Just Kidding, It's Touhou Again)

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I’m back.

Touhou will literally never stop being revised and you’re all gonna just have to live with that fact.

Acrobatics

So as far as I’m aware, this applies to the main cast primarily due to the ability to weave in and out of complex danmaku patterns while flying (which, AFAIK, would qualify as self-momentum), as well as air dashes, front flips, and the like in the grounded fighters. With that in mind, the fact that I applied it to characters such as Tenryu or Chang’e is pretty blatantly wrong, given how they don’t engage in spell card duels (or any fights at all, for that matter). So remove acrobatics from them and all other non-combatants. I’d also like to add acrobatics to Okina, because while I originally thought applying acrobatics to a canon wheelchair user was kind of cruel, she does in fact show the same skill in dodging danmaku in spite of that, putting her on par with everyone else.

Fairies

Add Immortality (Types 3 & 4). While they do have type 8, fairies can still die; they just come back to life later on. Akyuu also mentions this in PMiSS, stating that they immediately resurrect after death. It’s not like we can just leave it at type 8, either; the immortality page makes it pretty clear that type 8 has to grant at least one other form of immortality:

The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise.

Type 3 is from their already accepted High-Mid regen.

Also, the key for the species page should be changed to say “At least 10-C, up to 9-B” since we know of the existence of fairies that are only a few inches tall. This would also be a reason to add Small Size (Type 1) to the species page, with the specification that it only applies to some fairies.

Phantoms, Fairies, and Prismrivers

Grouping these all together for convenience.

In PoFV, Komachi says that fairies exist in a similar state to phantoms, in that they have no lifespan. She also says the same about the Prismrivers. Lacking a lifespan is pretty obviously Immortality (Type 1), which should be applied to all phantoms, fairies, and the Prismrivers. And of course, since Komachi can outright see lifespans, she’s definitely an accurate source on this.

I’m aware fairy type 1 immortality is somewhat contradicted by PMiSS saying they are short-lived, but given how it immediately goes on to talk about how reckless fairies are due to their immortality, the context seems to be that they just don’t care if they die, not that they have naturally short lifespans.

Hourai Immortals

Resistance to Life & Death Manipulation needs to go. It isn’t wrong, of course, but it’s just kinda redundant with type 5 immortality. Also, why does every hourai immortal get “resisted Yuyuko’s attempt at killing her” as a justification when IIRC that only happened to Mokou?

Beast Youkai

PMiSS describes them as being resistant to mental attacks, so Resistance to Mind Manipulation.

Applies to Chen, Ran, Keine, Tewi, Reisen, Shou, Kyouko, Mamizou, Seiran, and Ringo. Also applies to Yuuma since she should be a beast youkai similarly to Saki and Yachie.

Phantoms

Possession from, well, possessing people.

Reimu, Marisa, and Youmu

In WBaWC, all three protagonists are possessed by beast spirits. However, all of them seem actively aware of the fact that they’re possessed, and in fact are able to break free of the possession and think for themselves (albeit only for a very limited time). Naturally, this is Limited Resistance to Possession.
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Feel a little stupid for forgetting to add this before, but Reimu gets Weather Manipulation from being able to control the boundary between seasons.

Yuyuko

Duplication from doing shadow clone jutsu.

Enhanced Senses and Information Analysis from detecting a corpse underneath a tree and deducing how long it had been decaying for.

As a weakness addition, she can be repelled by churches or temples.

Sakuya

Weapon Control from making her knives spin around her.

Kasen

Remove Teleportation. As far as I can tell, the only citation for this is the wiki’s speculation that, because she spontaneously appears behind someone with no explanation on two occasions, she can teleport. That’s not solid grounds for teleportation at all; maybe a ‘possibly’ at best.

Eirin

Dream Manipulation from creating a drug that is able to induce specific dreams in whoever takes it, as well as Poison Manipulation and Statistics Amplification via drugs since the drugs that Reisen uses in a few of her fighting game spell cards are stated to come from Eirin.

Resistance to Poison Manipulation from stating that poisons and drugs won’t work on her, proven by the fact that she survived Yuyuko’s attempt at poisoning her.

Yukari

An additional form of Durability Negation, since she can open gaps inside people to cut them in half, and Boundary of Intellect and Feet (god I ******* hate that name) states that “Being able to draw a boundary on anything means that there is nothing that can't be cut into two”.

Damage Reduction(?) from Meiling stating that when physically striking her, she met a sort of resistance. Kinda vague but I’m not sure what else “meeting resistance when physically striking someone” would qualify for.

Fear Manipulation from apparently being able to induce fear in Eirin just by smiling.

Energy Manipulation from being able to siphon off part of her own energy and store it away in a gap for later use.

Immortality Negation (Type 5) from supposedly being able to induce death in Mokou.

Astral Projection, Enhanced Senses, and Perception Manipulation via upscaling from Maribel. We already do this with her time travel, and it’s a logical conclusion given how Yukari’s boundary manipulation is obviously overwhelmingly superior to Maribel’s.

Reisen

Energy Projection from shooting lasers from her eyes.

Perception Manipulation from directly affecting people’s senses.

Mamizou

Light Manipulation/Fire Manipulation from turning into the ******* sun, apparently.

Patchouli

Can bind ghosts to a set location which is uh. Idk what this one is actually :v

Yorihime and Toyohime

The AP justification of ‘stopped Junko from invading the Lunar Capital’ is so blatantly wrong that I’m amazed it ever got accepted. Their last appearance was in CiLR, in 2007, while Junko first appeared in LoLK, in 2015. There is literally no in-canon evidence of them even acknowledging each other’s existence, let alone fighting.

The scaling makes even less sense when you remember that one of Junko’s AP justifications is her being a threat to the entire Lunar Capital, which would obviously include Yorihime and Toyohime. So do the Watatsukis upscale from Junko, or does Junko upscale from the Watatsukis? We need to pick a side here.

Regardless, this has no bearing on their stats because WoG saying they’re superior to everyone in Gensokyo still works fine.

Murasa and Byakuren

In 17.5, she’s able to ‘reveal the truth’ via a mantra that Byakuren taught her, which should be Information Analysis.

Byakuren also gets Overwhelming Aura and Existence Erasure from this skill card.

Miko

Sleep Manipulation from being able to put herself to sleep with a spell.

Flandre

Crystal Manipulation from creating crystals with her attacks. Pretty simple.

Yuuma

Made a page for her.

Sandbox: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FujiwaraYesMokou/sandbox#Yuuma_Toutetsu

(Ignore the WIP Risk of Rain and WBaWC profiles I’ll finish those eventually :v)

Given that Flandre was sent by Okina with explicit orders to kill Yuuma I don’t think the scaling is questionable. I shouldn’t have to explain that nobody holds back during an assassination attempt.

Only thing I’m a little unsure on is Invulnerability since I’m not sure if there’s a more appropriate descriptor.

Universal Re-Scaling

As much as I strongly believe in universal Touhou, I have to admit our current profiles do a shit job of explaining why Touhou is universal. Time to fix that.

Suika: Just remove the canopy of the heavens feat, pretty sure a vague ‘shattering the sky’ statement caps out at like. Tier 6 in most circumstances.

Miko: Senkai creation is universal again, maybe: one thing that we all kinda overlooked when we downgraded this feat is that we currently treat Otherworlds as brane worlds, so Senkai’s spatial extent doesn’t really matter; this is a low 2-C creation feat because brane worlds are ******* stupid (but I’m not complaining). So remove the “realm with a moon” stuff and change the description to reference how Senkai is a brane world and branes are low 2-C by default.

Kasen: Same deal as Miko. List Senkai creation, and while the “far superior to Miko” statement is fine by itself, adding the Senkai feat is one less hoop people have to jump through when finding the source of universal AP.

Yukari: I kinda regret adding the constellation feat because it doesn’t really add to the universal justifications. The feat itself is weird anyways since we don’t know if she actually created the individual stars that make up the constellations or just moved pre-existing ones. Get rid of it.

Eirin: Bit of a minor change, the ‘hinted to be able to use a Klein bottle’ thing is a bit weird since WoG confirms it IS a Klein bottle, no speculation needed. Change the description to something like “Can utilize a Klein bottle in combat, which contains infinite mass and is likely 4D”.

Okina: The ‘god of stars’ thing needs to go, literally what ******* purpose does this serve lmao

Doremy: Dreams can contain Hell, which is infinite. That alone is a much better justification than “Otherworlds of varying size”. And now that the Netherworld is infinite too, we should probably add that as well since it also appears in dreams. And of course, the whole “Otherworlds are brane worlds” thing makes size irrelevant anyways. This should be 2-C, but dream scaling isn’t something I’m going to bother debating yet. Though if we can get 2-C accepted here then that’d be pretty cool.

Tenshi: for the love of god why have we still not added the ‘shaking the Heavens’ feat it’s been like 5 years since AoCF came out

Keine: Her Hakutaku form can create history, which according to WoG, creates the future as well. Being able to create the past and future is a pretty blatant timeline creation feat, and thus low 2-C.

Youmu: Add her spell card "Matsuyoi-Reflecting Satellite Slash", it covers an infinite range with energy, can’t get more blatantly H3-A than that.

Komachi: Pretty sure we agreed that her spatial expansion feat doesn't translate to AP. It has no reason to remain.

Sanzu River Crossing: Eternal Suffering Edition

I will get this feat approved no matter what it takes. The fact that we already have infinite speed is irrelevant >:V

Let me briefly set up the context for the feat again.

In WBaWC, the protagonists cross the Sanzu River to get to Hell, something that’s consistent across all routes.

The river is confirmed to be infinite in its default state a few times; In PoFV, Komachi says the width of the river is infinite for living humans. In BAiJR, it’s confirmed that the river is infinite for those who don’t pay the necessary toll, and its width is only shortened for those who pay. And more recently, in 17.5, the river is stated to have an infinite water supply on several occasions, obviously confirming an infinite volume (and thus an infinite size).

We can also just apply common sense here; the entire point of the river’s existence is that it is meant to prevent people from just casually crossing over to the afterlife whenever they want. It having a finite, and thus easily crossable width, would be extremely counterintuitive to its intended purpose.

The one counter argument that gets repeated every time this feat comes up is that Komachi adjusts the river, therefore crossing it is impossible to quantify as a speed feat.

First off, it doesn’t matter if the size of a thing varies when it comes to calculating the speed it would take to cross it; so long as that thing had a definitive, known size at the time the feat was performed, there is no reason to use the feat. And again, as proven above, the Sanzu River has an infinite width that must be crossed in its default state. So now we just need to prove that Komachi didn’t alter the width at the time the feat was performed.

In both Marisa and Youmu’s WBaWC routes, they explicitly mention not using Komachi’s services. Which, of course, means that they crossed the river’s default length since Komachi didn’t manipulate it. It is quite literally a secondary plot point that Komachi didn’t **** with the river; to say she did would be to say the literal plot of the game is wrong, and I shouldn’t have to explain why that’s ridiculous.

We can also apply common sense here again; part of the plot of WBaWC is that beast spirits have broken out of Hell and are entering Gensokyo to attempt to take it over. So naturally, keeping the beast spirits out of Gensokyo would be a high priority. Komachi shortening the river in this scenario would mean she is outright assisting a faction that is attempting to take over Gensokyo, something that is so wildly out of character that this shouldn’t even be an option.

In case this wasn’t OOC enough for her, one of the fundamental parts of her character is that she’s extremely lazy and continually puts off her duties to ferry souls across the river (here’s just one example). She doesn’t even mess with the river when it’s her job to do so; assuming that she would do so just for the hell of it is extremely contradictory to her character.

TL;DR: The Sanzu River has an infinite width when it isn’t being ****** with. The protagonists crossed the river when it wasn’t being manipulated, which means they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. We know Komachi didn’t **** with the river because 1. The game outright says she didn’t, and 2. It would be insanely OOC for her to do so in this instance. Which means the river maintained its infinite width while the protagonists crossed it.

As a final request: can we just remove the two blogs listed on the verse page? Given how many revisions we’ve been going through, both of them are horribly outdated and contain some misleading information (finite Hell, immeasurable/2-C Kaguya, youkai gravity/physics manip, etc). Simply updating them would normally be an option, but 1. Saikou is rarely active these days, so asking him to update his blog may be a bit of a reach and 2. More revisions are inevitable, especially for things like physiology and cosmology, and at a certain point it’d just be more efficient to make new blogs once the major revisions are done rather than continuously maintain an ongoing blog. And ultimately, there really isn’t much on the blogs that can’t simply be explained on the pages themselves.
 
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Because of the content revision thread is long, I haven't read all of them together but I'll say something about this nonetheless.

I agree with the opinion in "Hourai Immortals" section.

For Yukari's Fear Manipulation, I think it is Social Influencing at best. The time Eirin is scared is because Eirin are "caught her off" by the seventeen-year-old old woman during their intelligence "competition". If my memory is not wrong, it is from the last chapter in Cage in Lunatic Runagate.
 
For Yukari's Fear Manipulation, I think it is Social Influencing at best. The time Eirin is scared is because Eirin are "caught her off" by the seventeen-year-old old woman during their intelligence "competition". If my memory is not wrong, it is from the last chapter in Cage in Lunatic Runagate.
Well, the text does specifically attribute Eirin's mental state to Yukari's smile. Had their competition been the cause, we probably would've seen Eirin suffer from the effects much sooner. Also, I think quite literally traumatizing somebody just by smiling far surpasses what is reasonable as far as social influencing goes, and crosses over into mind manip territory. And yes, it is from the last CiLR chapter.
 
I agree with all the changes and adjustments posited here, by the way. It's all pretty sound and has good reasoning imo. I especially like the re-scaling of the universal feats because some of the reasonings were pretty terrible lol.
 
Cleaning up the Universal justifications is something that was definitely needed, so it's great to see that get covered.

Looking over everything, I don't see any problems at the moment, I respect you for attempting the Sanzu River again and therefore I agree with the proposals.
 
If the Sanzu River feat dies again I'll probably leave it alone but leaving it at "the river has an infinite width and the protagonists crossed it, but it isn't a speed feat" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 
As a final request: can we just remove the two blogs listed on the verse page? Given how many revisions we’ve been going through, both of them are horribly outdated and contain some misleading information (finite Hell, immeasurable/2-C Kaguya, youkai gravity/physics manip, etc). Simply updating them would normally be an option, but 1. Saikou is rarely active these days, so asking him to update his blog may be a bit of a reach and 2. More revisions are inevitable, especially for things like physiology and cosmology, and at a certain point it’d just be more efficient to make new blogs once the major revisions are done rather than continuously maintain an ongoing blog. And ultimately, there really isn’t much on the blogs that can’t simply be explained on the pages themselves.
I agree on removing the characters explanation since that can be explained in the page, but the physiologies? I don't think so mate.
 
Uhhhhh no? Like god physiology is a maybe (and even then it needs to be cleaned up a bit), but for everyone else, there's nothing so complex that it can't be explained by one or two properly sourced scans.
 
Like I said, there's nothing that really necessitates a blog as of now. Like yeah if we ever get NEP for the main cast, that'll probably need a blog, but shit like type 1 immortality or resistance to disease manip? Just link to a ******* imgur post and add a reference.

It's more effort than it's worth.
 
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Like I said, there's nothing that really necessitates a blog as of now. Like yeah if we ever get NEP for the main cast, that'll probably need a blog, but shit like type 1 immortality or resistance to disease manip? Just link to a ******* imgur post and add a reference.
Just add it on the explanation page...what's so hard about that? I mean the page is already there.
 
We have 177 pages that need to be updated in tandem with every little revision we make, updating a blog on top of that every time a change goes through is pushing things a little too far. You are severely underestimating how much effort it takes to maintain this verse (and I would know, given I've spent entire afternoons updating pages in accordance with verse-wide changes about half a dozen times now) on top of needing to continually work on new revisions and argue for or against existing ones. I do have a life outside of this hobby, shockingly.
 
You are severely underestimating how much effort it takes to maintain this verse (and I would know, given I've spent entire afternoons updating pages in accordance with verse-wide changes about half a dozen times now) on top of needing to continually work on new revisions and argue for or against existing ones. I do have a life outside of this hobby, shockingly.
Ah, ignoring that I'm the same person that edit these pages before you came, if you can't do it then don't do it.
 
Ah, ignoring that I'm the same person that edit these pages before you came, if you can't do it then don't do it.
And can you keep doing it? It's not the existence of the blog I'm worried about; it's about the sustainability. None of us have as much time to dedicate to this as we would like, so the accuracy of such a blog will inevitably get buried under a wave of new revisions and quickly become outdated. I support the existence of a blog, but it is more appropriate for a time when we aren't breaking out some massive revision every other week with more still to come.
 
if the blogs are outdated take it and make an updated version from your own blog then propose it in a CRT to replace the old one and have people agree with it. Outdated or not it's still currently better than no explanation to the verse. so might as well make a new one first and get it accepted before removing it.

especially since both blogs are troves for some scans and translation

as someone who also manages a verse where I handle both the explanation blogs and profiles available I can simply delay it. I don't have to always update it all in time its not some work that has deadlines although it leaves a bad taste having profiles updated I work on it slowly because I know its too much work for a single person

so I don't think physiologies should be removed unless someone can present a new updated one of their own.

anyway back to the topic,
this should also have information analysis imo.
Immortality Negation (Type 5) from supposedly being able to induce death in Mokou.
I fail to see how is this capable of giving death when she is talking about giving near-death experiences. those 2 are separate things. you can induce unto people who are immortal a near-death experience without actually being able to kill them. leaning on disagree on this one
Oil manipulation IMO should also be Organic manipulation since it is oil
Invulnerability is just absorption and power absorption just describes how it works. Invulnerability is specifically being invulnerable to things even if affected by them not because they can affect it with their powers or ability.
then the rest looks fine for me


anything else I agree.
 
this should also have information analysis imo.
Sure, I guess.

I fail to see how is this capable of giving death when she is talking about giving near-death experiences. those 2 are separate things. you can induce unto people who are immortal a near-death experience without actually being able to kill them. leaning on disagree on this one
She is explicitly saying that Mokou will "cross the boundary of life and death", something that should be impossible given how Hourai immortals lack such boundaries to begin with. The fact that she says boundary of life and death implies to me that she would be capable of killing Mokou and bringing her back to life. So at bare minimum it's life/death hax that ignore type 5 immortality, but at that point it may as well be indistinguishable from immortality negation.

Oil manipulation IMO should also be Organic manipulation since it is oil
Invulnerability is just absorption and power absorption just describes how it works. Invulnerability is specifically being invulnerable to things even if affected by them not because they can affect it with their powers or ability.
then the rest looks fine for me
I've heard some conflicting opinions on what controlling oil would be, but it is a liquid so I guess water/blood manip is the closest we're gonna get. Not opposed to listing it as biological manip, though.

It's not power absorption, as Yuuma does not gain any abilities from the attacks she nullifies, nor do her attackers lose access to those abilities. Would listing it as a combination of damage reduction and power nullification be more accurate?

if the blogs are outdated take it and make an updated version from your own blog then propose it in a CRT to replace the old one and have people agree with it. Outdated or not it's still currently better than no explanation to the verse. so might as well make a new one first and get it accepted before removing it.

especially since both blogs are troves for some scans and translation

as someone who also manages a verse where I handle both the explanation blogs and profiles available I can simply delay it. I don't have to always update it all in time its not some work that has deadlines although it leaves a bad taste having profiles updated I work on it slowly because I know its too much work for a single person

so I don't think physiologies should be removed unless someone can present a new updated one of their own.
That is true. However, a discrepancy between what is on the blogs VS what is on the pages looks bad for the verse. The fact that the current blogs are lacking some information is not a big problem; the issue is that a lot of information is just flat out wrong. In my opinion, blogs are best reserved for matters that have been previously agreed to, not ones that are the source of ongoing debates and changes.

Honestly, I don't care as to whether or not we keep the blogs. But at bare minimum we should make it very clear that they are heavily outdated and the information contained within them is subject to change at any time, at least until we move past all the big revisions (whenever that happens).
 
I've heard some conflicting opinions on what controlling oil would be, but it is a liquid so I guess water/blood manip is the closest we're gonna get. Not opposed to listing it as biological manip, though.
not necessarily biological manip but rather this one
It's not power absorption, as Yuuma does not gain any abilities from the attacks she nullifies, nor do her attackers lose access to those abilities. Would listing it as a combination of damage reduction and power nullification be more accurate?
yeah power nullification via absorption seems like the case then. Doesn't really feel damage reduction imo
Honestly, I don't care as to whether or not we keep the blogs. But at bare minimum we should make it very clear that they are heavily outdated and the information contained within them is subject to change at any time, at least until we move past all the big revisions (whenever that happens).
that makes sense I guess noting they are outdated might be better until a newer one is published
She is explicitly saying that Mokou will "cross the boundary of life and death", something that should be impossible given how Hourai immortals lack such boundaries to begin with. The fact that she says boundary of life and death implies to me that she would be capable of killing Mokou and bringing her back to life. So at bare minimum it's life/death hax that ignore type 5 immortality, but at that point it may as well be indistinguishable from immortality negation.
this one is complicated to talk about. but my reservation is that its a much more complicated mechanic than simply negating Type 5 immortality. but I guess by giving her the boundaries that she lacks in turn gives negates it similar to how some characters can negate it by giving them the concept of death they lack as type 5 immortals.
I'll be neutral until I give is some more thought
 
not necessarily biological manip but rather this one
Had no idea this was even a thing. Given that it does mention oil as a subset of the ability, I suppose I can change her oil manip to that.

yeah power nullification via absorption seems like the case then. Doesn't really feel damage reduction imo
Sounds good to me. EDIT: Applied the changes to her sandbox.

that makes sense I guess noting they are outdated might be better until a newer one is published
Also fine with this as a compromise.

this one is complicated to talk about. but my reservation is that its a much more complicated mechanic than simply negating Type 5 immortality. but I guess by giving her the boundaries that she lacks in turn gives negates it similar to how some characters can negate it by giving them the concept of death they lack as type 5 immortals.
I'll be neutral until I give is some more thought
True, I think it's a very unconventional means of working around her immortality. Still, regardless of the means used, it's enough to make Mokou experience death in some capacity, which I still believe to be best described as immortality negation.
 
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What about Immortal Negation for Junko don't forget She kill Houyi
We know so little about that interaction that I don't think we can say she permanently killed him; after all, Mokou and Kaguya are repeatedly stated to 'kill' each other, yet both come back to life just fine. Houyi might've stayed dead for good, or he could've come back tomorrow just fine; we really don't know.
 
We know so little about that interaction that I don't think we can say she permanently killed him; after all, Mokou and Kaguya are repeatedly stated to 'kill' each other, yet both come back to life just fine. Houyi might've stayed dead for good, or he could've come back tomorrow just fine; we really don't know.

The problem is

According to timeline Junko already kill Houyi since many thousand years ago before lolk and Touhou 6 that why I'm talking about it
 
Okay? I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take that as proof of Junko negating his immortality. Wouldn't be the first time a Touhou character just ***** off after their first appearance.
 
Yeah, platform creation is already linked under her oil manipulation justification.

As for Keiki, I mostly made that profile to test out how some god physiology revisions I'm planning would look. But her current profile is lacking in justifications, and missing a fair number of abilities (notably her life manipulation and social influencing), and given that her universal scaling is reliant on other characters who do not yet have profiles (Saki and Yachie), I'd prefer to have waited before giving her a profile.
 
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