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Touhou Infinite Speed Bad

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"I need you to relay these messages for me, since Saikou the Lewd King doesn't look to reappear anytime soon and I need to keep up the wank refutation until he comes back.

I'm not gonna counter anything again but....
Are you gonna repeat same mess You were did in Up and Downs ? Calling People wank doesn't make your argument better in fact It make you look worse
and PLS DO NOT REPEAT THAT SAME MESS MAL that thread is pure chaotic mess

Also... are you try to compare Touhou to other verse again ? like how you did in your downgrade thread ?
 
Being rated MFTL is qualitatively distinct from being rated infinite, Dragon Ball characters and the like tend to have distinct "casual" and "fighting" speeds (because something, something, "active" and "passive" ki power), and you can be ranked as "immeasurable" in speed for many different reasons beyond just "time travel with raw speed".
To Mal:
Immeasurable speed, by all mean is your speed unbound by temporal axis, thus you can freely move backward and forward in time, attacking at any points/moments on the time axis, practically time travel via sheer speed. Using the argument like hey in their daily life they doesn't demonstrate those insane speed is a bad argument, no matter what kind of speed rating we talking about, Infinite, Immeasurable, FTL, etc........Debunk speed like that is like debunk Universal Goku because he doesn't always destroys the universe when he fights

Also there is no passive ki or active ki in Dragon Ball, that is headcanon.
 
I'm gonna be honest, I can't bother responding to Mal anymore. As I get the feeling this is just deja vu and no matter what is said. The stances won't change.

My only response is, what on earth does

"Who brought up the scrolling background and ship control here? Not me. Why are you acting you you didn't really read the past threads, and then reference stuff you could have only known about if you did - or if someone on Discord fed you the information? Especially when the references have no relevance to the current argument at hand? It just makes it look like you're somehow unable or afraid to actually take the bulk of my (current) arguments on your own."

Mean? You are the one who brought it up in your very first proxy post. In fact that was the bulk of your Palanquin Ship "debunk", of which I specifically targeted while even claiming I wasn't going to focus on everything else. (To the same degree) and instead let others do the debunking. Even claiming how I'm not fully qualified for that.

How are you going to try and spin it around? You brought it up much like you did in the previous thread, unless the very first proxy was false. And I brought up how it's utterly stupid. In fact you legit tripled down on the background and visuals in the very first post you made. Even going as far to say the statement didn't matter because the visuals didn't line up.

At least own up to what you say mate, what is the point in denying it when it's right there for everyone to read? With that said, that's probably my last message on the thread unless some actual interesting conversation is occurring.
 
... what did I just read?

Like, I can't really be bothered to take a real stance in this Merry-go-round of passive-aggressivness, so I'm gonna drop this little treat here, tell ya'll to chill, and share what I think makes more sense later.
 
Honestly if someone can write out each point of those for and against it would be nice
Although each point should not pass a single paragraph (sentence if possible)
 
DJ Khaled; another one.

Another response to relay:

"Also... are you try to compare Touhou to other verse again ? like how you did in your downgrade thread ?"

I just saw the Touhou supporters here compare 2hu to The Elder Scrolls, God of War, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

"Immeasurable speed, by all mean is your speed unbound by temporal axis, thus you can freely move backward and forward in time, attacking at any points/moments on the time axis, practically time travel via sheer speed. Using the argument like hey in their daily life they doesn't demonstrate those insane speed is a bad argument, no matter what kind of speed rating we talking about, Infinite, Immeasurable, FTL, etc........Debunk speed like that is like debunk Universal Goku because he doesn't always destroys the universe when he fights"

Resolving incidents isn't "daily life stuff". It's "plot-relevant super-serious action stuff".

"Also there is no passive ki or active ki in Dragon Ball, that is headcanon."

Can't Dragon Ball characters raise and lower their guards and power levels? Because that was what I was referring to.

avoid quoting me too much
 
This thread really isn't going to get anywhere until Saikou shows up again and actually makes his responses, which he said he'd do over a week ago now. Also saw he was back on the site early this morning, so at this point I'm not sure what's keeping him from doing so, outside of potentially playing/reading through the Touhou material again for context.
 
... what did I just read?

Like, I can't really be bothered to take a real stance in this Merry-go-round of passive-aggressivness, so I'm gonna drop this little treat here, tell ya'll to chill, and share what I think makes more sense later.

"You're being passive aggressive" the man says passive aggressively.
 
@Saikou_The_Lewd_King seem to make sense in the first post of this thread.

What is the staff consensus here so far?

Also:

@Promestein @Theglassman12 @CrimsonStarFallen @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this, please?
Is it wise to do this when Saikou isn't around to further his points? Dude hasn't been on in over a month.
 
Infinite Corridor Feat

So the feat goes like this. Kaguya creates an infinite corridor, meant to trap the protagonists. Eventually, they travel to the "end" of the corridor, being set in outer space in a weird space cage. So the profiles assume they overpowered the corridor via sheer speed. But there are several issues with this interpretation. Namely...

-The corridor is meant as a trap. Unless Eirin somehow didn't know people on the protagonists' levels have infinite speed, using it as a trap would be useless.

-Eirin is not surprised at all by the protagonists "escaping" the trap. In fact, she seems confident that the trap worked. The protagonists reaching the "end" was intended.

-None of the protags react to the corridor being "infinite". They just note that it's long, and then notice that it has ended. Not once is it implied they went through an infinite corridor at once.

-There is an end to this "endless" corridor

-Miko, a character certainly comparable in speed, chose to use hax to dispel it instead of traveling it.

Now those arguments could be dismissed each in their own way. But to me, the true killing blow to this feat is this alternate, much likelier take on this. The idea that the trap was never meant to be infinite in this case. Eirin wanted to lead the protagonists to the fake Moon, where they would be unable to go home. The protagonists being forever trapped in this infinite path was never implied to be Eirin's goal. In each versions of the story, she expresses satisfaction that the protags reached the false moon.

So the more likely option is that the corridor was shut down when they reached the fake Moon, or it was only made to be this long in the first place. The goal was always to lead the protagonists there and neither Eirin or the protags treat their feat as a speed feat. Assuming it's a sheer speed feat when this explanation is much more consistent with what happens is silly.
Don't know anything about the verse but this sounds like it's one of those times when fiction uses the word "infinite" or "endless" to represent that the place is constantly changing and making it an endless maze type of thing. Instead of it being the actual size of ∞.

Palanquin Ship Feat

This one is much more simple. The feat claims the Palanquin Ship flew to the edge of Makai, which is infinite. But uh.

"This ship is bound for Hokkai,
the world where Hijiri is imprisoned."

"A corner of the infinite area of Makai. That's where Hijiri was sealed away."

That's the statement. The problem is that "A corner of X" doesn't have to mean it's literally in the furthest corner of an area. Corners can exist anywhere outside of the edge of an area. Saying something is in a corner of an area to say it's in a tucked-away spot within the area is not uncommon at all.

Assuming that it means a literal furthest corner (of an infinite world, mind you, meaning it probably shouldn't have corners) is thus an unnecessary assumption that leads to an insanely inflated feat.

And there is also the fact that this assumes the Palanquin Ship is infinitely far away from the corner. There are no reasons to assume it started at the "center" of the area. In fact, it'd be pretty dumb for the ship to start infinitely far away from Hokkai, its destination. Another bad assumption.
And this makes sense to me.

So I agree with the OP.
 
Don't know anything about the verse but this sounds like it's one of those times when fiction uses the word "infinite" or "endless" to represent that the place is constantly changing and making it an endless maze type of thing. Instead of it being the actual size of ∞.


And this makes sense to me.

So I agree with the OP.
Not to try sound like an edgelord, but for the love of holy spirit, what exactly is agreeable up there without your interpretation of how Kaguya's linking feat works not really aligning with your statement of "Not knowing anything about the verse".

I would at least love to see some points of supporters being taken into account than reading the OP and slamming "I agree OP FRA" sort of message, sorry but that's sorta discouraging, y'know.

Not to forget there's more than Kaguya's feat, but just wanted to point out. .-.
 
And this makes sense to me.

So I agree with the OP.
Why am I doing this minutes before a medical appointment?

Saikou doesn't even understand where the Palanquin Ship feat begins.

The ship doesn't even BEGIN in Makai, because part of the story involves them finding the treasures around Gensokyo and sending people out to collect them. THEN they enter through Makai's only entrance, and make their way to Hokkai from there. So they couldn't have chosen to be "closer" in any shape or form!

Not only that, but there was already an entire discussion on the use of the word "corner" when the feat was accepted in the first place! In the original Japanese language, the usage of the word wouldn't allow for it to mean "a tucked away spot." Saikou not only misunderstands how and where the entire feat transpires, but the original language doesn't fit his interpretation.
 
Genuinely, of all the Touhou threads in need of evaluation, why this ******* disaster?

Anyways,
Don't know anything about the verse but this sounds like it's one of those times when fiction uses the word "infinite" or "endless" to represent that the place is constantly changing and making it an endless maze type of thing. Instead of it being the actual size of ∞.
No. The corridor does not have a variable size; it is repeatedly stated to be made of infinitely-linked pieces of the space-time continuum, or just outright infinite and endless (with character statements about not seeing the end and the like supporting this). Nothing about its size ever changes.

And this makes sense to me.

So I agree with the OP.
Saikou has demonstrated that he does not even understand the context under which the feat was performed (part of his debunk was that the ship started in Makai, when in fact it started in a completely separate dimension), so I don't understand why you're just blindly agreeing here.

Also don't count on Saikou coming back. He tends to disappear for a while in the middle of important Touhou threads.

In any case, it'd probably be a good idea to understand the full context of the feats rather than just rely on Saikou, who has already misrepresented that context in his original post. If you need a more in depth explanation of the feats due to not being knowledgeable on the verse, I'd be more than happy to help.
 
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No. The corridor does not have a variable size; it is repeatedly stated to be made of infinitely-linked pieces of the space-time continuum, or just outright infinite and endless (with character statements about not seeing the end and the like supporting this). Nothing about its size ever changes.
Even 2 meters of spacetime are "infinitely linked" because a continuum, by definition, has infinite parts (point coordinates) to it.

Being "infinitely linked" means very little in any case, since it could just refer to the strength of the spacetime "bonds" or whatever the else such a strange and uncommon phrase could mean.

As for the feat of "crossing the corridor", it's supposed "infinity" I had already debunked, so here it is again:

The primary justifications for "infinite speed" Touhou can be found in this example page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei

First justification: "Flew across Kaguya's infinite corridor in a short period of time"

The very scans provided as "evidence" for this actually debunk this statement.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Barrier_Team's_Scenario
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team's_Scenario

Eirin Yagokoro
EXITS
Yukariこの廊下はおかしいわ。
いくらなんでもこんなに長い筈がない。
This corridor is strange.
It can't possibly be this long.
Reimu外が見たことが無い世界になってる!The outside's turned into some world I've never seen!
Reimu長い廊下ももう終った見たいね
そろそろ観念したらどう?
It looks like that long corridor has ended now.
How about giving up soon?
Eirinここは偽の月と地上の間。
さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を
結ぶ偽物の通路。
貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に
騙されてここまで来たのよ。
This place is between the false moon and the Earth.
That endless corridor just now
was a false passage that connects the two.
You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon
produced, and came here.
Eirinそう、外よ。
貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。
どう?
外の空気は。
Yes, the outside.
You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here.
So,
how's the air outside?
Eirin Yagokoro EXITS
Sakuyaでも、さっきから大分進んでいるけど……。
この廊下、終わりが見えません!
We've gone so far by now, but...
I can't see an end to this corridor!
Sakuya廊下は終ったみたいだけど、
ここは一体……。
It looks like the corridor has ended,
but where on earth is this...?
None of the 2hus involved actually crossed an infinite distance. They traversed the corridor only up until they got to a space of indeterminate distance between the Earth and the "false Moon". Unless we're supposed to believe that there was actually an infinite distance between the Earth and the "false moon", or that there was somehow infinite space already inside the Eientei estate, this is proof positive they didn't cross an infinite space.

Is it wise to do this when Saikou isn't around to further his points? Dude hasn't been on in over a month.
Might as well go on without him, in that case. I know for sure that @Eficiente has some (more) things to say about infinite speed Touhou.
 
Even 2 meters of spacetime are "infinitely linked" because a continuum, by definition, has infinite parts (point coordinates) to it.

Being "infinitely linked" means very little in any case, since it could just refer to the strength of the spacetime "bonds" or whatever the else such a strange and uncommon phrase could mean.
Without further context, maybe. But there are literally numerous statements made in the exact same scene that you're referencing that refer to an infinite spatial extent; "Lady Kaguya's endless corridor spell", "a corridor that continues endlessly", "breaking through this endless-corridor spell", "this infinite trap". This isn't even including the numerous statements outside of AoCF.

So quit ******* cherry picking and acknowledge the full text.
The primary justifications for "infinite speed" Touhou can be found in this example page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei

First justification: "Flew across Kaguya's infinite corridor in a short period of time"

The very scans provided as "evidence" for this actually debunk this statement.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Barrier_Team's_Scenario
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team's_Scenario

Eirin Yagokoro
EXITS
Yukariこの廊下はおかしいわ。
いくらなんでもこんなに長い筈がない。
This corridor is strange.
It can't possibly be this long.
Reimu外が見たことが無い世界になってる!The outside's turned into some world I've never seen!
Reimu長い廊下ももう終った見たいね
そろそろ観念したらどう?
It looks like that long corridor has ended now.
How about giving up soon?
Eirinここは偽の月と地上の間。
さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を
結ぶ偽物の通路。
貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に
騙されてここまで来たのよ。
This place is between the false moon and the Earth.
That endless corridor just now
was a false passage that connects the two.
You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon
produced, and came here.
Eirinそう、外よ。
貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。
どう?
外の空気は。
Yes, the outside.
You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here.
So,
how's the air outside?
Eirin Yagokoro EXITS
Sakuyaでも、さっきから大分進んでいるけど……。
この廊下、終わりが見えません!
We've gone so far by now, but...
I can't see an end to this corridor!
Sakuya廊下は終ったみたいだけど、
ここは一体……。
It looks like the corridor has ended,
but where on earth is this...?
None of the 2hus involved actually crossed an infinite distance. They traversed the corridor only up until they got to a space of indeterminate distance between the Earth and the "false Moon". Unless we're supposed to believe that there was actually an infinite distance between the Earth and the "false moon", or that there was somehow infinite space already inside the Eientei estate, this is proof positive they didn't cross an infinite space.
Big problem here. That 'indeterminate distance' you're referring to? It ******* is the infinite corridor. Hell, that's literally in the text itself; "That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two."

So the text outirght ******* states they crossed a location that is infinite in size, the conclusion isn't that hard.

TL;DR: The intermediary between Eientei and the sealed chamber is flown across during the events of Imperishable Night. The distance between the two locations takes the form of a corridor, as stated by Eirin. The corridor is, on numerous occasions, stated to have an infinite spatial extent from at least 2 separate sources. Since the protagonists crossed it in finite time, that gives them infinite speed. You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
 
Disagree the examples seems to pander more to the PIS or bad writting (if we did the things in the wiki Marvel would be 9-B for most characters for example) more than actual evidences
 
As for the Palanquin Ship thing, quite simply it's just not that fast. There's nothing that actually indicates any of the characters involved literally moving at infinite speeds, regardless of whether the realm is "infinite" or not.

Keep in mind that, generally speaking, the speed of light seems to function as a "hard limit" for 2hu speeds, as indicated by Marisa boasting of how the Master Spark is lightspeed, or how Sakuya was able to catch the chupacabra specifically because she was able to move faster than light, which seems to be portrayed as something unique to her.

Don't a lot of 2hus have spacetime bending powers too? They could have just used those to "help" them along the way to Hokkai.

Without further context, maybe. But there are literally numerous statements made in the exact same scene that you're referencing that refer to an infinite spatial extent; "Lady Kaguya's endless corridor spell", "a corridor that continues endlessly", "breaking through this endless-corridor spell", "this infinite trap". This isn't even including the numerous statements outside of AoCF.

So quit ******* cherry picking and acknowledge the full text.
Those mentions of "spells" and "traps" makes it sound more like the corridor's "infinity" is more due to Kaguya's weird spatial manipulation powers, with very little to do with it's actual size.

Big problem here. That 'intermediate distance' you're referring to? It ******* is the infinite corridor. Hell, that's literally in the text itself; "That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two."
They weren't at the "false moon", which the corridor is supposed to connect to the Eientei estate, so in real terms, they haven't crossed any quantifiable amount of distance.

As you say, "quit ******* cherry picking and acknowledge the full text."
 
Don't a lot of 2hus have spacetime bending powers too? They could have just used those to "help" them along the way to Hokkai.
Marisa and Sanae were two of the characters present for that feat, and neither of them have spacetime bending powers, and nothing within the game itself signifies they used any special abilities to perform the feat, they simply would have had to do this of their own ability.
 
As for the Palanquin Ship thing, quite simply it's just not that fast. There's nothing that actually indicates any of the characters involved literally moving at infinite speeds, regardless of whether the realm is "infinite" or not.

Keep in mind that, generally speaking, the speed of light seems to function as a "hard limit" for 2hu speeds, as indicated by Marisa boasting of how the Master Spark is lightspeed, or how Sakuya was able to catch the chupacabra specifically because she was able to move faster than light, which seems to be portrayed as something unique to her.
...It literally traveled to the edge of an infinite location; that IS the ******* indication that it has infinite speed.

Also, are you really suggesting SoL peak Touhou? Because there are 2 MFTL+ feats, and the example you gave of Marisa boasting about her light speed Master Spark is IMMEDIATELY followed by her outspeeding it in the blink of an eye, not to mention other casual FTL feats. And of course, Sakuya being faster than light is irrelevant, since, well, infinite speed is also faster than light.

But at this point, the SoL stuff is derailing; go make a downgrade thread to Relativistic+ if you're really so keen on this idea.

Don't a lot of 2hus have spacetime bending powers too? They could have just used those to "help" them along the way to Hokkai.
2 big issues with this. First is that, if you state that a character used one of their abilities in an instance, you would need evidence of that being the case. Second is that, of the three characters to perform the feat, both Sanae and Marisa lack any sort of hax that would let them catch up to the ship or go to Hokkai without movement speed. No spacehax, no dimensional travel, no teleportation, you get the idea. They couldn't make their goal of catching up to the ship any easier even if they wanted to.

Those mentions of "spells" and "traps" makes it sound more like the corridor's "infinity" is more due to Kaguya's weird spatial manipulation powers, with very little to do with it's actual size.
It has an infinite size specifically because of the spells used to make it that size, Mal. The entire POINT of Kaguya's involvement here is to take pre-existing space, and and stretch it to an infinite distance to keep out intruders. Hell, if you read the scans, you would know CDS outright states this. It doesn't matter why the corridor is infinite, just that it is infinite at the time the protagonists crossed it; which it was.

They weren't at the "false moon", which the corridor is supposed to connect to the Eientei estate, so in real terms, they haven't crossed any quantifiable amount of distance.

As you say, "quit ******* cherry picking and acknowledge the full text."
The text says "This place (referring to the location the protags end up in post-corridor crossing) is between the false moon and earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two". This very clearly means that the distance the protagonists crossed (the earth --> unknown space location) was what was connected by the corridor, NOT the earth and false moon. So the protagonists really did cross the entire infinite distance and not some unknowable amount.
 
Also I'm genuinely confused how a thread that has been dead for over a month and was pretty unanimously agreed to be filled with misunderstandings of feats and bad faith arguments is brought back to life, while there's at least, minimum, 3 ability addition CRTs that are still sitting in wait of moderator approval.

Hell, how about the simple Hecatia thread that only wanted to add 2 abilities to her page that's been sitting ignored and inactive since November? People wonder why there's so many Touhou threads open at once...
 
For Marisa's "speed of light" thing

失われた命が一時的に戻ってくると言われる戻り橋。命が戻るくらいだから弾幕も戻る。A returning-bridge that's said to temporarily return lost lives. If it can bring back entire lives, it can bring back danmaku no problem.
どんどん過去に戻っていくと、こんな感じの弾幕になるんだな。So this is what danmaku looks like while you're gradually moving back to the past, huh?
しかし私のマスタースパークでは、過去に戻ろうが未来へ進もうが印象は変わらんだろう。つまり、光の速さは時空を越えて不変なのだ。やっぱりレーザー最強だな。But even if you go back to the past or forward to the future, my Master Spark's impression ought to be exactly the same. In other words, the speed of light is unchanging throughout all of space-time.[1] Man, lasers really are the best.
What Marisa is referencing here are the relativistic properties of light and its interactions with objects.

Marisa and Sanae were two of the characters present for that feat, and neither of them have spacetime bending powers, and nothing within the game itself signifies they used any special abilities to perform the feat, they simply would have had to do this of their own ability.
Doesn't Marisa have gravity manipulation - which is basically just a more limited form of spacetime manipulation anyway - and Sanae have "miracle"/probability manipulation as well? They could have used those to "help" themselves along the way.

As for "nothing in the game signifies" stuff, it's frankly little more that pedantry. We know that they have these abilities, we know that they use these abilties, so why wouldn't they exploit them to make their trip go by just a bit faster?

...It literally traveled to the edge of an infinite location; that IS the ******* indication that it has infinite speed.
The "location" isn't "infinite", as they traveled there with clearly finite speed. It's like claiming a character has "infinite" speed because he got to the "edge" of an "infinite" realm, even though he's shown walking there on foot.

How many times do I have to tell you this?

Also, are you really suggesting SoL peak Touhou? Because there are 2 MFTL+ feats, and the example you gave of Marisa boasting about her light speed Master Spark is IMMEDIATELY followed by her outspeeding it in the blink of an eye, not to mention other casual FTL feats. And of course, Sakuya being faster than light is irrelevant, since, well, infinite speed is also faster than light.

But at this point, the SoL stuff is derailing; go make a downgrade thread to Relativistic+ if you're really so keen on this idea.
What were those "two MFTL+ feats" again? Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights, and something else I can't remember right now.

Marisa moving faster than her own Master Spark? Sounds implausible. Do you have any scans/video of that?

Other casual FTL feats? Please show them.

As for the bolded, it's little more than an attempt at technicality. If Sakuya was legitimately capable of moving at infinite speed, the text would have just said so.

That "speed of light" stuff isn't derailing, because the speed of light stuff represents a hard cap against "infinite speed" Touhou.

It has an infinite size specifically because of the spells used to make it that size, Mal. The entire POINT of Kaguya's involvement here is to take pre-existing space, and and stretch it to an infinite distance to keep out intruders. Hell, if you read the scans, you would know CDS outright states this. It doesn't matter why the corridor is infinite, just that it is infinite at the time the protagonists crossed it; which it was.
Or it could just be some weird spacetime gobbledygook and the space is constantly "stretching". Breaking out of the "infinite corridor", if anything, amounts to little more than space(time) manipulation resistance.

The text says "This place (referring to the location the protags end up in post-corridor crossing) is between the false moon and earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two". This very clearly means that the distance the protagonists crossed (the earth --> unknown space location) was what was connected by the corridor, NOT the earth and false moon. So the protagonists really did cross the entire infinite distance and not some unknowable amount.
Why are you being this weirdly pedantic about word choices? The corridor is said to be a "false passage" connecting the "two", meaning the Earth and the "false moon". There's no reason why some random location out in space would be part of the "two". They're not physically present on the "false moon". Therefore, they're not at the end of the corridor. Simple.

And, being frank, if the corridor ends at some random spot in outer space, or even at some "false moon" (which, if it's anything like the "real" moon, should be around 384,400 km away from the Earth), then that's, again, proof positive that the corridor isn't actually "infinite". If they were really wanting to push this "infinite" spacetime gobbledygook, they would have just had the corridor be entirely contained within the house (TARDIS-style "bigger on the inside"/"dimension in my closet" trickery, etc.), with no "outs" or "exits" at all.
 
Doesn't Marisa have gravity manipulation - which is basically just a more limited form of spacetime manipulation anyway - and Sanae have "miracle"/probability manipulation as well? They could have used those to "help" themselves along the way.
It's never mentioned, shown, or implied that Marisa used gravity manip in any way to gain an advantage, and to my knowledge her gravity manip isn't something she could use herself to help within this context, largely in firepower application. Sanae on the other hand, would not be able to have used her miracle abilities in this instance, as complex miracles, something such as, moving at infinite speed, "require days of preparation". There is also never a point when Sanae implies, states, or is shown using her miracle abilities to reach these speeds.

Purely their own abilities.

What were those "two MFTL+ feats" again? Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights, and something else I can't remember right now.

Marisa moving faster than her own Master Spark? Sounds implausible. Do you have any scans/video of that?

Other casual FTL feats? Please show them.

As for the bolded, it's little more than an attempt at technicality. If Sakuya was legitimately capable of moving at infinite speed, the text would have just said so.

That "speed of light" stuff isn't derailing, because the speed of light stuff represents a hard cap against "infinite speed" Touhou.
Why are already accepted feats and scans that are unrelated to the debate of infinite speed being mentioned? If you wish to see the scans or proof of these feats, please look at the verse's admittedly outdated blog, in the "Lightspeed and Beyond" section, as these are fairly old and well known. If you're unaware of even these basic, entry level speed feats, why are you here arguing in regards to other feats with nothing but pure speculation? I genuinely wish to know.
 
Why are already accepted feats and scans that are unrelated to the debate of infinite speed being mentioned? If you wish to see the scans or proof of these feats, please look at the verse's admittedly outdated blog, in the "Lightspeed and Beyond" section, as these are fairly old and well known. If you're unaware of even these basic, entry level speed feats, why are you here arguing in regards to other feats with nothing but pure speculation? I genuinely wish to know.
Your unwarranted, unnecessary condescension aside, I can't be forced to remember every little thing about 2hu. And since any implication of a finite limit to speed works against "infinite speed" Touhou, these "already accepted feats and scans" are most certainly relevant.

Things are not "unrelated" just because you want them to be.

And looking at the scans themselves, the "top speeds" in the 2huverse generally seem to be "just past the speed of light", and not much further. Nothing to do with "infinite speed".
 
The "location" isn't "infinite", as they traveled there with clearly finite speed. It's like claiming a character has "infinite" speed because he got to the "edge" of an "infinite" realm, even though he's shown walking there on foot.

How many times do I have to tell you this?
Background scrolling is not an indication of speed, Mal. We've been over this over and over again. Do not bring it up again, and I will ignore it if you continue to do so anyways.
What were those "two MFTL+ feats" again? Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights, and something else I can't remember right now.

Marisa moving faster than her own Master Spark? Sounds implausible. Do you have any scans/video of that?

Other casual FTL feats? Please show them.

As for the bolded, it's little more than an attempt at technicality. If Sakuya was legitimately capable of moving at infinite speed, the text would have just said so.

That "speed of light" stuff isn't derailing, because the speed of light stuff represents a hard cap against "infinite speed" Touhou.
It is derailing, the topic here is the validity of infinite speed feats. I'll keep ignoring these responses until you actually address the topic at hand.

Also ******* lmao at using background scrolling as a "debunk" and then immediately saying background scrolling is unusable

Or it could just be some weird spacetime gobbledygook and the space is constantly "stretching". Breaking out of the "infinite corridor", if anything, amounts to little more than space(time) manipulation resistance.
Source? You made a claim ("the space is constantly stretching"), so where's your evidence for this fun little headcanon you have? Because I've read and reread the scripts for IN and AoCF dozens of times now, and I can't seem to find any evidence of this claim. So you certainly seem to just be making shit up.

Why are you being this weirdly pedantic about word choices? The corridor is said to be a "false passage" connecting the "two", meaning the Earth and the "false moon". There's no reason why some random location out in space would be part of the "two". They're not physically present on the "false moon". Therefore, they're not at the end of the corridor. Simple.
You can't be ******* serious. The phrase "connecting the two" is explicitly referring to the earth and the 'space' the protagonists end up in; Eirin makes that statement WHILE IN THE SPACE ITSELF, and you literally see in the stage itself that the 'end' of the corridor leads to this space as well. Y'know what, here's a helpful little illustration I made that'll hopefully explain this concept more in depth.
unknown.png

And, being frank, if the corridor ends at some random spot in outer space, or even at some "false moon" (which, if it's anything like the "real" moon, should be around 384,400 km away from the Earth), then that's, again, proof positive that the corridor isn't actually "infinite". If they were really wanting to push this "infinite" spacetime gobbledygook, they would have just had the corridor be entirely contained within the house (TARDIS-style "bigger on the inside"/"dimension in my closet" trickery, etc.), with no "outs" or "exits" at all.
Breaking news, fiction is unrealistic, more at 11.

You can't just handwave the eight or so statements of infinite size (with numerous supporting statements) by going "but its not realistic". Because infinite size will always be unrealistic and at odds with reality.
 
By the way, in case Mal brings up FTL stuff or the False Moon again, just ignore him. They have 0 correlation to the context of the feats being discussed. Let's try to keep this thread focused on the actual topics here.
 
Or we could shift focus over to the 4 or 5 touhou threads that have been getting bumps for a week rather than the debunked one that got necro'd for some godforsaken reason.

A recap of the major arguments (some of which already got covered in the upgrade thread but sure I guess) and their debunks would probably be best, yes.
 
Alright, give me like an hour, I wanna be as thorough as possible here.

And yeah, for the love of god can we try to focus on the actually recent CRTs instead of reviving this corpse of a thread?
 
Your unwarranted, unnecessary condescension aside, I can't be forced to remember every little thing about 2hu.
I wouldn't say baseline series feats are "little things", they're the foundations for which the debating of this series are built upon. If you wish to defend, or oppose, a verse, you need to at least have a good grasp on it's fundamentals. It's incredibly reductive to demand of someone the most entry level feats you could find with a simple search of the Touhou blog page, but it seems you didn't care to go that far. All I ask is that if you wish to poke holes in Infinite Speed Touhou, go ahead, if someone proves the verse isn't Infinite, great, be my guest, but as is, you are taking swings at something you haven't taken the time to fully comprehend.
Things are not "unrelated" just because you want them to be.

And looking at the scans themselves, the "top speeds" in the 2huverse generally seem to be "just past the speed of light", and not much further. Nothing to do with "infinite speed".
These things are unrelated, not because I "want them to be", but because they hold no stake in the conversation of if these infinite speed feats are valid or not. And no, these "Just past the speed of light" top speeds you're trying to float are not the peak of the series, there are a handful of MFTL+ feats that also exist and were appended to these profiles for years, and have never been debunked. You cannot apply the existence of a FTL feat from the series to dispel the existence of an Infinite speed feat within the same series, that is simply not how things work.
 
Background scrolling is not an indication of speed, Mal. We've been over this over and over again. Do not bring it up again, and I will ignore it if you continue to do so anyways.
It is when you're trying to portray "infinite" speed, in the sense that it works completely against it.

It is derailing, the topic here is the validity of infinite speed feats. I'll keep ignoring these responses until you actually address the topic at hand.
No it's not derailing. They were brought up specifically within the context of the validity of supposedly "infinite" speed feats. Things don't stop being relevant just because you want them to.

Also ******* lmao at using background scrolling as a "debunk" and then immediately saying background scrolling is unusable
Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights isn't a quantifiable feat by any stretch.

Source? You made a claim ("the space is constantly stretching"), so where's your evidence for this fun little headcanon you have? Because I've read and reread the scripts for IN and AoCF dozens of times now, and I can't seem to find any evidence of this claim. So you certainly seem to just be making shit up.
What evidence do you have for your own headcanon? What I've said is far more valid considering how the corridor actually "plays out" than what you've said.

You can't be ******* serious. The phrase "connecting the two" is explicitly referring to the earth and the 'space' the protagonists end up in; Eirin makes that statement WHILE IN THE SPACE ITSELF, and you literally see in the stage itself that the 'end' of the corridor leads to this space as well. Y'know what, here's a helpful little illustration I made that'll hopefully explain this concept more in depth.
unknown.png
Really, everything is irrelevant compared to the fact that, according to you, the "infinite corridor" ends at some random point in space. According to the text itself, it ends at the "false moon".

An "infinite corridor" doesn't need "exits", and certainly not at random-ass locations in the literal middle of nowhere.

Here's my own diagram explaining the situation.

2hu-Corridor-Distance-Diagram.png


Breaking news, fiction is unrealistic, more at 11.

You can't just handwave the eight or so statements of infinite size (with numerous supporting statements) by going "but its not realistic". Because infinite size will always be unrealistic and at odds with reality.
"Fiction is unrealistic anyway" isn't a good-enough excuse for a self-contradicting "infinite corridor" feat in which the corridor in question just ends at some random point in space.

In fact, in this instance, it's little more than a fallacy. An "appeal to fiction/unreality" fallacy, if you will.
 
Moving across a random dimension with wallpaper lights isn't a quantifiable feat by any stretch.
So you admit background scrolling is bunk? Good, me too. Let's move on then.

What evidence do you have for your own headcanon? What I've said is far more valid considering how the corridor actually "plays out" than what you've said.
I've been providing evidence the entire goddamn time. It's your turn. And in case you forgot what the discussion rules say, well,
unknown.png

Burden of proof is on you here.

Really, everything is irrelevant compared to the fact that, according to you, the "infinite corridor" ends at some random point in space. According to the text itself, it ends at the "false moon".
What? No the **** it doesn't. I'm looking at the text right now and it doesn't say that. Like genuinely, this just. isn't a thing that exists. You're completely fabricating evidence at this point.

I have no reason to argue with somebody who outright lies about what's in the text. I figured you might've been just ignorant or stubborn, but no, you really are just dead set on misinterpreting everything to get the downplay you desire.

Last time I'll respond to you here. Shape the **** up if you want a real argument, otherwise I'm wasting my time.
 
I wouldn't say baseline series feats are "little things", they're the foundations for which the debating of this series are built upon. If you wish to defend, or oppose, a verse, you need to at least have a good grasp on it's fundamentals. It's incredibly reductive to demand of someone the most entry level feats you could find with a simple search of the Touhou blog page, but it seems you didn't care to go that far. All I ask is that if you wish to poke holes in Infinite Speed Touhou, go ahead, if someone proves the verse isn't Infinite, great, be my guest, but as is, you are taking swings at something you haven't taken the time to fully comprehend.
Where does this talk about "fully comprehending" something come from? All I needed were some memory-refreshers, that's all.

These things are unrelated, not because I "want them to be", but because they hold no stake in the conversation of if these infinite speed feats are valid or not. And no, these "Just past the speed of light" top speeds you're trying to float are not the peak of the series, there are a handful of MFTL+ feats that also exist and were appended to these profiles for years, and have never been debunked. You cannot apply the existence of a FTL feat from the series to dispel the existence of an Infinite speed feat within the same series, that is simply not how things work.
And I was asking about those (supposed) MFTL+ feats as well, but I guess people aren't able/willing to post that for some reason.

So you admit background scrolling is bunk? Good, me too. Let's move on then.
I didn't relate that statement at all to background scrolling. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I've been providing evidence the entire goddamn time. It's your turn. And in case you forgot what the discussion rules say, well,
unknown.png

Burden of proof is on you here.
You're only evidence is that "well these people say it's endless/infinite", which is then immediately contradicted by the corridor either ending at some random location in space, or at some "false moon".

What? No the **** it doesn't. I'm looking at the text right now and it doesn't say that. Like genuinely, this just. isn't a thing that exists. You're completely fabricating evidence at this point.

I have no reason to argue with somebody who outright lies about what's in the text. I figured you might've been just ignorant or stubborn, but no, you really are just dead set on misinterpreting everything to get the downplay you desire.

Last time I'll respond to you here. Shape the **** up if you want a real argument, otherwise I'm wasting my time.
What even is this?

The text says: "This place is between the false moon and earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two"

"The two" being "the false moon and earth".

Why are you and accusing me of "lying" and "misinterpreting everything" when I'm only making the most obvious interpretation of the passage in question? I seriously think you need to calm down. You're not staff, and you don't get to tell people to "shape the **** up" while acting like this.

And @Antvasima @Mr._Bambu can you take note of the unwarranted claims of dishonesty from YesMokou here? This outburst is simply unseemly.
 
Considering how the arguments against both infinite speed feats have devolved into misrepresenting the context and actual events that transpired, while also ignoring our debunks while not providing scans or evidence for their downgrade, can this necro'd thread please get closed?? Or at the very least, can people wait until a proper summary is made?

If people want to talk Touhou, there's other threads that actually need attention, for like a week now.
 
Agreed.

No scans from the opposition, just headcanons and misreadings of the text. Given how there are literally discussion rules about how CRTs need evidence, and the opposition has not provided any, this can probably just be closed outright.
 
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