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In all honesty, I'm not sure about everything. But I do know the corridor was indeed endless. It wasn't a loop.
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Touhou Infinite Speed Bad
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
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- cirno touhou project
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In all honesty, I'm not sure about everything. But I do know the corridor was indeed endless. It wasn't a loop.
Vietthai96
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The reason for this question is i faced a similar feat from my favorite series, the is also a staircase placed on the main character group, at first they continue to climb and it was endless; after a long time they realize that it is not the staircase that endless but the space loop and roll, thus the group actually is not even leave the initial spot, the space loop created a "illusion" of them climbing the stair
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Yeah, I get ya. But no, I think some people confirmed it wasn't loop. Some person said it wasn't possible to create a loop in Touhou and another brought up some other evidence that makes it impossible to be a loop. I believe it was mentioned in this thread but I don't really remember what was said.
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Vietthai96
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I don't mean about event or history loop, just just a space loop, it is like you run on a treadmill
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While I don't have the source on me, ZUN confirmed that Time and Space are locked together in Touhou and are essentially one and the same, so an inability to grab time from the past would also include space from the past as well.
I might have explained it poorly admittedly.
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What about from the present and using that as the loop?
Vietthai96
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I think using the word 'loop" is kinda a bad word from me, it is line, when you run, the space also "run", but they run at the opposite direction to you, just created a illusion of using running, but in actually you are not even actually move from the initial spot, that why i sung the treadmill, it is kinda similar
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Here is a response to the points brought up above, not from me:
The second point is something I am tired of arguing; even if we were to revert to the previous FTL/MFTL+ speeds, the character's in-game speeds relative to the background scrolling would still be visually far slower than their speed ratings. Needless to say, I do not think we can use background scrolling as a counterpoint, as it will always be contrary to the speeds depicted in lore.
You may have missed the staff thread regarding this issue, but it was agreed upon that feats that involve reaching the 'end of infinity' are indeed valid under our current speed standards. You are more than welcome to try and change those standards, but as it stands now, nothing in either Touhou feat violates those standards.
Also, “he finds his takes as more likely and logical, therefore not needing evidence should that be the case”? I do want to try and keep my composure here, but are you kidding me? Everyone on this site believes their own arguments are likely and logical, yet they still need evidence to prove that to be the case. Saikou isn’t some all-knowing god whose arguments inherently hold truth; he needs evidence just like the rest of us do.
And while I do believe that the lack of suitable evidence on the current profiles is an issue, I do not think that is justification for a downgrade. Simply tell me what evidence you would need added, and I will find it and add it accordingly.
I'm ignoring the next two posts because I don't wanna repeat "we did a staff thread on this and decided it was fine" for a third and fourth time. I can provide a link to the thread, if you want.
I would like to remind everyone once again that we have had a staff thread regarding this issue, and it was agreed upon that feats that require crossing or reaching the end of an infinite space are indeed valid evidence for infinite speed. PLEASE acknowledge this, as the "infinity can't have an edge" argument seems to be why most people agree with the downgrade, even though under our current standards it's fine.
I am fine with this; Given that I was responsible for adding the justifications to the profiles, I'd be more than happy to edit them to be more descriptive.
How is them talking while moving relevant here? As for their current ratings, that has no bearing on what a character in-universe would have knowledge of.
We seem to disagree on what serves as valid proof of infinity in these circumstances. The place is repeatedly stated to be endless in the game where the feat was performed (Imperishable Night), and additionally, a future game in the series also confirms the extent of the corridor to be infinite (Urban Legend in Limbo), so there are two separate games in the series that indicate an infinite size. If it were a single game, I may be able to see your point, but when a statement is consistent like this, we can't just shrug it off.
The second point is something I am tired of arguing; even if we were to revert to the previous FTL/MFTL+ speeds, the character's in-game speeds relative to the background scrolling would still be visually far slower than their speed ratings. Needless to say, I do not think we can use background scrolling as a counterpoint, as it will always be contrary to the speeds depicted in lore.
You may have missed the staff thread regarding this issue, but it was agreed upon that feats that involve reaching the 'end of infinity' are indeed valid under our current speed standards. You are more than welcome to try and change those standards, but as it stands now, nothing in either Touhou feat violates those standards.
This is fair, but I still believe that Miko choosing to rely on hax has no correlation to a feat performed in an entirely different game, where the context was completely different. We cannot reasonably compare these two feats in circumstances like this.
Not necessarily? I don't see why a feat being higher than feats that came before it demands the additional context of the characters needing to point out the discrepancy. Many verses grow stronger over time due to new information being presented, but that doesn't mean the characters have to acknowledge it; not every verse is structured like a shonen manga, you know.
Already addressed in a staff thread. Can we please move on from the "infinite spaces cannot have an edge" argument, given that it previously ended in a staff thread that concluded such feats are valid?
Also, “he finds his takes as more likely and logical, therefore not needing evidence should that be the case”? I do want to try and keep my composure here, but are you kidding me? Everyone on this site believes their own arguments are likely and logical, yet they still need evidence to prove that to be the case. Saikou isn’t some all-knowing god whose arguments inherently hold truth; he needs evidence just like the rest of us do.
And while I do believe that the lack of suitable evidence on the current profiles is an issue, I do not think that is justification for a downgrade. Simply tell me what evidence you would need added, and I will find it and add it accordingly.
I'm ignoring the next two posts because I don't wanna repeat "we did a staff thread on this and decided it was fine" for a third and fourth time. I can provide a link to the thread, if you want.
You would need evidence of this being the case, and Makai has 0 statements of only certain aspects of it being infinite. We shouldn't assume your interpretation to be correct by default.
How so?
This was brought up and debunked previously. Basically, space-time loops like what you're suggesting are impossible in Touhou. As confirmed in chapter 27 of CoLA, the memory layer, one of the fundamental aspects that makes up reality, rejects the existence of loops. So Kaguya looping the corridor would be at odds with the mechanics of the verse; we shouldn't default to assuming a contradiction like that is the correct interpretation.
I would like to remind everyone once again that we have had a staff thread regarding this issue, and it was agreed upon that feats that require crossing or reaching the end of an infinite space are indeed valid evidence for infinite speed. PLEASE acknowledge this, as the "infinity can't have an edge" argument seems to be why most people agree with the downgrade, even though under our current standards it's fine.
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Yeah if the standards are in need of changing in your opinion you can try to make a thread arguing otherwise but until then this seems fine from what I've read?
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I believe Eficiente...'s comment to be immensely... um... naïve and counterintuitive. Some of these things I don't need to respond to because I already anticipated them being used as arguments and countered them in my original post but I'll do what I can.
"a person with regular common sense reading the profiles would think "This tells me nothing, infinite and endless can be hyerbolic, meant as in that keeping on going rather than occupying a set, unexpanding infinite distance, etc.""
I'm not saying it's always wrong to say statements like that to be hyperbole but that's far removed from "common sense" lol.
"the place is said to be infinite, which is weak,"
Are you saying it's weak on its own or weak because of the following comments? It's hard to interpret your posts sometimes.
"we can see characters travel across it at a limited speed, which goes against the idea of infinite speed but can potentiallybe forgiven since is a game (Needless to say, the speed at which they travel is faster than what's shown, but the degree is which becomes less likely to be the faster it gets),"
I actually don't think it's needless to say. Are you invoking the Sagan Standard with regards to higher stats?
"Similar here. This is not a black ad white thing, and nor is that "completely irrelevant" in the way portrayed. What Saikou points out there isn't some end-all be-all proof, simply something that goes against the idea, should the feat give infinite speed this is something that you need to roll with."
Yeah I understand the argument of "one interpretation is more reasonable than the other because there is a higher quantity of things implying it" except the point Saikou made there (and indeed, every point Saikou made) does not present evidence that supports his interpretation at all. It isn't strong evidence, it isn't weak evidence; it's no evidence at all. That was what my comment proved, respond to it or give up that point sensibly.
"Also no, "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere being an anti-feat" is not inhereditary always a false anti-feat, "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere casually" is specifically not an anti-feat, but "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere in a hurry or with context to be in a hurry" is an anti-feat."
Awesome argument king.
"You're right that when a character dodges lightning or light they don’t usually remark on how fast they were moving, please don't appeal to feats that demand simplier evidence."
Just to be clear, so you're saying that's an argument that works against those feats they just require more of those weak arguments to refute?
"First time this is said. Said evidence is nowhere and amounts to nothing really; we know it's not a hyperbole to it being really long, cool, but as it has an end then it's likely that the teams entered in it not in the opposite end, but somewhere a limited distance away from the end they reached"
Saikou made this point for the other example and I refuted that so yeah there isn't much reason for me to respond to this argument here.
"Or it could still keep on going eternity at an unknown speed."
It's crazy to me that somebody whose response is developed around proving one interpretation uses more common sense/ is more reasonable/etc than any one where Touhou characters have infinite speed bases his "better" interpretations around assuming a word means something it doesn't or at the very best something that is rarely what people mean when they use the word.
"Unless it isn't infinite in its highest take, or it is infinite that way but doesn't apply in an even way, like the depths of some specific areas being infinite (seas, skies) as it's common in fiction."
You aren't even defending what Saikou said here, or even responding to the refutation I made in any reasonable way. It's just a different argument entirely. One I've already countered in this post anyway.
"This is counterintuitive."
Please reread my comment. This isn't even a remotely grammatically correct response to what I said unless you're agreeing with me when I describe what Saikou could mean by his argument.
"a person with regular common sense reading the profiles would think "This tells me nothing, infinite and endless can be hyerbolic, meant as in that keeping on going rather than occupying a set, unexpanding infinite distance, etc.""
I'm not saying it's always wrong to say statements like that to be hyperbole but that's far removed from "common sense" lol.
"the place is said to be infinite, which is weak,"
Are you saying it's weak on its own or weak because of the following comments? It's hard to interpret your posts sometimes.
"we can see characters travel across it at a limited speed, which goes against the idea of infinite speed but can potentiallybe forgiven since is a game (Needless to say, the speed at which they travel is faster than what's shown, but the degree is which becomes less likely to be the faster it gets),"
I actually don't think it's needless to say. Are you invoking the Sagan Standard with regards to higher stats?
"Similar here. This is not a black ad white thing, and nor is that "completely irrelevant" in the way portrayed. What Saikou points out there isn't some end-all be-all proof, simply something that goes against the idea, should the feat give infinite speed this is something that you need to roll with."
Yeah I understand the argument of "one interpretation is more reasonable than the other because there is a higher quantity of things implying it" except the point Saikou made there (and indeed, every point Saikou made) does not present evidence that supports his interpretation at all. It isn't strong evidence, it isn't weak evidence; it's no evidence at all. That was what my comment proved, respond to it or give up that point sensibly.
"Also no, "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere being an anti-feat" is not inhereditary always a false anti-feat, "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere casually" is specifically not an anti-feat, but "a character with light speed taking a taxi somewhere in a hurry or with context to be in a hurry" is an anti-feat."
Awesome argument king.
"You're right that when a character dodges lightning or light they don’t usually remark on how fast they were moving, please don't appeal to feats that demand simplier evidence."
Just to be clear, so you're saying that's an argument that works against those feats they just require more of those weak arguments to refute?
"First time this is said. Said evidence is nowhere and amounts to nothing really; we know it's not a hyperbole to it being really long, cool, but as it has an end then it's likely that the teams entered in it not in the opposite end, but somewhere a limited distance away from the end they reached"
Saikou made this point for the other example and I refuted that so yeah there isn't much reason for me to respond to this argument here.
"Or it could still keep on going eternity at an unknown speed."
It's crazy to me that somebody whose response is developed around proving one interpretation uses more common sense/ is more reasonable/etc than any one where Touhou characters have infinite speed bases his "better" interpretations around assuming a word means something it doesn't or at the very best something that is rarely what people mean when they use the word.
"Unless it isn't infinite in its highest take, or it is infinite that way but doesn't apply in an even way, like the depths of some specific areas being infinite (seas, skies) as it's common in fiction."
You aren't even defending what Saikou said here, or even responding to the refutation I made in any reasonable way. It's just a different argument entirely. One I've already countered in this post anyway.
"This is counterintuitive."
Please reread my comment. This isn't even a remotely grammatically correct response to what I said unless you're agreeing with me when I describe what Saikou could mean by his argument.
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I haven't seen his activity notably drop on discord, he might just not be bothered.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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I find people misunderstanding the standards again
A space that is called infinite must not have an end no matter what
And people reaching the end in fiction is well a common thing but the should be stated to cross it or reach the end of it not that the space itself is stated to have a definite end
And in this case I think the space was stated to have an end so it still not supported by the standards so far
It’s just you guys misunderstanding it
The space itself must not be stated to have a definite end as infinite won’t have an end and it will just be an hyperbole in that case
But again this is a case by case basis scenario not one size fits all
A space that is called infinite must not have an end no matter what
And people reaching the end in fiction is well a common thing but the should be stated to cross it or reach the end of it not that the space itself is stated to have a definite end
And in this case I think the space was stated to have an end so it still not supported by the standards so far
It’s just you guys misunderstanding it
The space itself must not be stated to have a definite end as infinite won’t have an end and it will just be an hyperbole in that case
But again this is a case by case basis scenario not one size fits all
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If someone reached the end, how does the space itself not have the end then whether it is stated or not?
PrinceofPein
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Oh let me edit it not what I meant but like I said it must be a case by case basis
But yes the said infinite space must not be stated to have a definite end like this case I guess
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Not really interested in the whole thing, but it depends from fiction to fiction. Certain fictions have infinities which has an end.
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Not on the discord, so I didn't know. I would've thought given he started the thread he'd at least have the energy to come back here and defend his points, rather than just leave abruptly while saying he'd be back later...
azontr
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I have been asked by @Malomtek to relay a message for him. I already have confirmation from a moderator, specifically @Mr._Bambu, that I am allowed to do this for him, so don't flame me.
@DontTalkDT @Promestein
The primary justifications for "infinite speed" Touhou can be found in this example page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei
First justification: "Flew across Kaguya's infinite corridor in a short period of time"
The very scans provided as "evidence" for this actually debunk this statement.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Barrier_Team's_Scenario
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team's_Scenario
None of the 2hus involved actually crossed an infinite distance. They traversed the corridor only up until they got to a space of indeterminate distance between the Earth and the "false Moon". Unless we're supposed to believe that there was actually an infinite distance between the Earth and the "false moon", or that there was somehow infinite space already inside the Eientei estate, this is proof positive they didn't cross an infinite space.
And there's also this:
Second justification: "Raced against and ultimately caught up to the Palanquin Ship, which could fly to the edge of the infinitely-sized Makai"
I'll just copy and past what I've said in the previous thread this was brought up in:
In the first fifteen seconds of that linked video about this feat, we see Marisa initially moving fast over some road on the ground, then slowing down as the road gets further and further obscured by cloud cover. It is the same case when Marisa finally catches up to the ship, the only difference being that the deacceleration occurs after nine seconds.
She, and the ship by extension, are clearly moving at a finite speed, otherwise that road on the ground would barely even be blur. That is, unless you want me to believe that even that portion of the road somehow had infinite length.
There's also the fact that neither of them seem to be in Makai in general yet, let alone one of its corners. Makai/Hokkai consistently looks completely differently from the realm with the road in it.
"But what about infinite Makai-"
Doesn't matter. We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds, and that's what counts. In fact, the fact that they were able to travel to the corner of Makai, Hokkai, at what is clearly finite speed is itself a disproof of the notion of "infinite" Makai being anything more than hyperbole.
There's also the fact that the random UFO enemies Marisa faced on the way to the Palanquin Ship presumably managed to give her some trouble, and it would be absurd to think that these random encounters also have infinite speed.
A private Q&A I had with some mods :
Here's my question:
"If a realm or dimension is stated by character dialogue to be infinite, yet a person or vehicle traveled to its "edge" or "corner" at what is visibly finite speed, would VSBW still consider the realm to be infinite, or no?
In my view, you can't cross an "infinite" realm with visibly finite speed, so logic indicates then that the realm is not actually "infinite" in size."
Here were their responses:
In short, "infinite speed" 2hu is backed up by some really bad evidence and reasoning, and is completely inconsistent with the general portrayals of the overwhelming majority of 2hu characters.
@DontTalkDT @Promestein
The primary justifications for "infinite speed" Touhou can be found in this example page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei
First justification: "Flew across Kaguya's infinite corridor in a short period of time"
The very scans provided as "evidence" for this actually debunk this statement.
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Barrier_Team's_Scenario
https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Story/Scarlet_Team's_Scenario
Eirin Yagokoro EXITS | ||
|---|---|---|
| Yukari | この廊下はおかしいわ。 いくらなんでもこんなに長い筈がない。 | This corridor is strange. It can't possibly be this long. |
| Reimu | 外が見たことが無い世界になってる！ | The outside's turned into some world I've never seen! |
| Reimu | 長い廊下ももう終った見たいね そろそろ観念したらどう？ | It looks like that long corridor has ended now. How about giving up soon? |
| Eirin | ここは偽の月と地上の間。 さっきの永い廊下は、偽の月と地上を 結ぶ偽物の通路。 貴方達は偽満月が生み出した幻像に 騙されてここまで来たのよ。 | This place is between the false moon and the Earth. That endless corridor just now was a false passage that connects the two. You two were fooled by an illusion that the false full moon produced, and came here. |
|---|
| Eirin | そう、外よ。 貴方達は永い廊下に導かれてここまで来た。 どう？ 外の空気は。 | Yes, the outside. You were led through that eternal corridor, and came here. So, how's the air outside? |
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| Eirin Yagokoro EXITS | ||
|---|---|---|
| Sakuya | でも、さっきから大分進んでいるけど……。 この廊下、終わりが見えません！ | We've gone so far by now, but... I can't see an end to this corridor! |
| Sakuya | 廊下は終ったみたいだけど、 ここは一体……。 | It looks like the corridor has ended, but where on earth is this...? |
And there's also this:
Second justification: "Raced against and ultimately caught up to the Palanquin Ship, which could fly to the edge of the infinitely-sized Makai"
I'll just copy and past what I've said in the previous thread this was brought up in:
In the first fifteen seconds of that linked video about this feat, we see Marisa initially moving fast over some road on the ground, then slowing down as the road gets further and further obscured by cloud cover. It is the same case when Marisa finally catches up to the ship, the only difference being that the deacceleration occurs after nine seconds.
She, and the ship by extension, are clearly moving at a finite speed, otherwise that road on the ground would barely even be blur. That is, unless you want me to believe that even that portion of the road somehow had infinite length.
There's also the fact that neither of them seem to be in Makai in general yet, let alone one of its corners. Makai/Hokkai consistently looks completely differently from the realm with the road in it.
"But what about infinite Makai-"
Doesn't matter. We see Marisa and the ship visibly moving at finite speeds, and that's what counts. In fact, the fact that they were able to travel to the corner of Makai, Hokkai, at what is clearly finite speed is itself a disproof of the notion of "infinite" Makai being anything more than hyperbole.
There's also the fact that the random UFO enemies Marisa faced on the way to the Palanquin Ship presumably managed to give her some trouble, and it would be absurd to think that these random encounters also have infinite speed.
A private Q&A I had with some mods :
Here's my question:
"If a realm or dimension is stated by character dialogue to be infinite, yet a person or vehicle traveled to its "edge" or "corner" at what is visibly finite speed, would VSBW still consider the realm to be infinite, or no?
In my view, you can't cross an "infinite" realm with visibly finite speed, so logic indicates then that the realm is not actually "infinite" in size."
Here were their responses:
There's also the factor of "standard portrayal" to consider here. The average Touhou character has never, I repeat, NEVER been portrayed as possessing unlimited or arbitrarily high amounts of speed, which an "infinite" speed rating necessarily implies. Indeed, a great many plot elements in various 2hu games, which one can easily presume have a factor of "needing to get to a place quickly", become utterly incoherent if we allow for infinite speed to apply, not even just for the high-tiers, but for everyone and their dog in Touhou Project.
In short, "infinite speed" 2hu is backed up by some really bad evidence and reasoning, and is completely inconsistent with the general portrayals of the overwhelming majority of 2hu characters.
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This is from mokou
I feel the need to point out that every single one of these arguments were already posted in this thread, and debunked and addressed accordingly. Nothing here is new; we have no reason to debate this. And for the final time, we had a staff thread regarding 'edge of infinity' feats and determined that they were fine to use. So stop bringing up that point, because the current wiki standards disagree with you.
I would also ask that you stop bringing staff comments into this, as nobody will buy "I have top secret DMs with staff and they agree with me" as an argument.
Oh, and the consistency argument was brought up in the original infinite speed upgrade thread as well, yet still got accepted. You’re literally just rehashing old arguments that were already rejected. Come on now.
Mokou here, proxying yet again.
I feel the need to point out that every single one of these arguments were already posted in this thread, and debunked and addressed accordingly. Nothing here is new; we have no reason to debate this. And for the final time, we had a staff thread regarding 'edge of infinity' feats and determined that they were fine to use. So stop bringing up that point, because the current wiki standards disagree with you.
I would also ask that you stop bringing staff comments into this, as nobody will buy "I have top secret DMs with staff and they agree with me" as an argument.
Oh, and the consistency argument was brought up in the original infinite speed upgrade thread as well, yet still got accepted. You’re literally just rehashing old arguments that were already rejected. Come on now.
well, if he ever makes a response to any of that I'll be sure to relay it for him.
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I'm not gonna counter anything
but look at I highlight I can't believe this is 2022 and We still have people who can't seperate between real life's logic and fiction
in fact How we see they're moving is just game mechanic. Game must make to playable No one gonna play the game that everything in the game travel faster than light 1000 + times Cuz Human eyes can't see something that fast that why we have to take a look at lore
It's doesn't matter how we see they're moving if in lore They fly cross infinite distance They just have infinite speed just that
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Countered in the last thread should stay in the last thread cause what he brought up just now supports the OP greatly and maybe you should also copy and paste what you used to debunk him in the previous thread
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That's not how it works. None of what he said "supports the OP" because it's quite literally a copy and paste of his posts from the previous thread. Trust me, I would know, since I spent a lot of time countering his Palanquin Ship feat debunks and I recognize that post. It's nearly, if not completely, identical.
Reusing posts that were countered before the staff thread on crossing infinity was made, and before the infinite speed feats were accepted, doesn't change anything. Especially ones that argue from disbelief or try to say that statements within the story are outright dismisseable
I really didnt want to be a part of this thread unless I felt I absolutely needed to given my personal issues are piling up right now, but this needs to be said.
I'm pretty sure that making the exact same post again and again, whether it be an upgrade, downgrade, or counterargument, with no new information whatsoever isn't allowed. At the very least, it must be heavily frowned upon.
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Didn't Marisa once try to travel beyond the Hakurei Shrine in Wild and Horned Hermit, or at least another official manga, and ended up after an entire afternoon at the same place where she began? Wouldn't that be pretty important in this disscussion since that's either an anti-feat or a feat for Gensokyo?
Guardian_Doge
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It’s for gensokyo, the barrier surrounding it is Non-Euclidean.
azontr
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Proxying for Mal again obviously:
I have never seen anyone actually address the "they only moved to an indeterminate distance between the Earth and false moon" argument. Indeed, when it was first brought up, I was told to "leave if for another thread". It seemed very relevant here, so I brought it up again.
And the only "debunks" of "finite speed Palanquin Ship/finite size Makai" I saw were "but the characters SAID it was infinite" and "something, something, lore", which don't really mean anything in the long run. Characters can say anything and it doesn't necessarily amount to the same, and trying to assert that everything that happens in gameplay is just some weird simulacrum of what's "really" happening in some mystical "lore" version of events is asinine at best, as I've always maintained.
The staff comments I mentioned are relevant here, so I don't get this attitude about "super-secret staff conversations".
2hus having limited speed, and never being portrayed as having unlimited speed in any official 2hu media, game, or story, is not a "game mechanic", and not something that can just be handwaved away with "lore" either.
I'm calling on @Eficiente, @Confluctor, @Promestein, and @DontTalkDT to further comment. Where the hell is @Saikou_The_Lewd_King anyway?
I have never seen anyone actually address the "they only moved to an indeterminate distance between the Earth and false moon" argument. Indeed, when it was first brought up, I was told to "leave if for another thread". It seemed very relevant here, so I brought it up again.
And the only "debunks" of "finite speed Palanquin Ship/finite size Makai" I saw were "but the characters SAID it was infinite" and "something, something, lore", which don't really mean anything in the long run. Characters can say anything and it doesn't necessarily amount to the same, and trying to assert that everything that happens in gameplay is just some weird simulacrum of what's "really" happening in some mystical "lore" version of events is asinine at best, as I've always maintained.
The staff comments I mentioned are relevant here, so I don't get this attitude about "super-secret staff conversations".
2hus having limited speed, and never being portrayed as having unlimited speed in any official 2hu media, game, or story, is not a "game mechanic", and not something that can just be handwaved away with "lore" either.
I'm calling on @Eficiente, @Confluctor, @Promestein, and @DontTalkDT to further comment. Where the hell is @Saikou_The_Lewd_King anyway?
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Lore takes precedence over gameplay on this site. This is nothing new. Examples of this are TES and GoW, the former having High 1-B attacks but in gameplay being nothing special, such as a fireball that visually cant destroy a building. Games would be quite unplayable otherwise.
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I'm not gonna answer everything cause I'm pretty sure 99% of those points were already shot down in previous threads (so I'll just let someone answer or like...copy&paste, whatever).
The last part I want to address though. What does he mean by "portray"? Like...us seeing them perform said actions? Assuming the ship was traveling at infinite speeds, wouldn't THAT be a portrayal? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just genuinely confused. If something is described as infinite and the characters travels said area, isn't that the author portraying them to be at that speed?
Nothing is inconsistent with anything. And the evidence feels a lot more believable than the counter evidence. The "bad evidence and reasoning" portion doesn't have a big effect considering the opposing side presents evidence that is either unclear, disproven, or simply false from the start.
Most plot elements wouldn't change even if the Touhou's moved at regular human speeds. So why bring this up? One important plot point was the ship. It took off, the characters needed to reach it.
I'm not gonna address everything, cause I'm definitely not the right guy for it.
Yes, visuals play some roles. But saying visuals of a video game are somehow more important than what we are TOLD seems, illogical. And being frank, that's the best I can even say to it. I'm pretty sure it was stated multiple times previously how almost every single video games portray the events slower than what it actually is with the prime example being Sonic.
His justification was "Touhou is a visual series" which falls flat and at best is just nonsensical reasoning. What is happening within the universe ≠ the visuals being presented. The situations where gameplay > statements is very, very little. And this is simply not one of them. There is absolutely zero reasoning for why the gameplay > dialogue/statements in this scenario.
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Off dealing with real life shit, most likely, Mal. Either that, or he can't be bothered his ass with this thread anymore, which I find unlikely, but it is still possible, I guess.
azontr
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Azontr-chan is back proxying for @Malomtek
"Lore takes precedence over gameplay on this site. This is nothing new. Examples of this are TES and GoW, the former having High 1-B attacks but in gameplay being nothing special, such as a fireball that visually cant destroy a building. Games would be quite unplayable otherwise."
There are a number of extenuating circumstances as to why TES and GoW are rated the way they are, which don't apply to Touhou. TES has literal books of "lore". GoW has a bunch of author statements on Twitter. Makai being "infinite" in Touhou has precisely two character statements to back it up. Character statements aren't "lore", and they don't mean anything by themselves.
Stop comparing verses to each other when the comparisons don't apply.
"I'm not gonna answer everything cause I'm pretty sure 99% of those points were already shot down in previous threads (so I'll just let someone answer or like...copy&paste, whatever)."
They weren't. The "they only went to an intermediate space between the Earth and false moon" argument I brought up certainly wasn't. This hyperbolic argumentation only hurts your side.
"The last part I want to address though. What does he mean by "portray"?"
What do you not gey? Don't you understand what "portray" means in this context? I'm talking about their actions, feats, and exploits in any given 2hu plotline. And in no other plotline are 2hus depicted with speeds even mildly approaching "infinite".
Even if we took the Palanquin Ship feat as real, it would just be an outlier, given that there is practically nothing else that supports "infinite speed" Touhou, and the other storylines depicted them as having far more limited speeds.
Hell, we even have Rinnosuke, a man who regularly interacts with Reimu Hakurei and is quitely closely acquainted with her (so he should know what he's talking about) saying that with Reimu, incident resolving usually takes several hours, or even a day. This comes from "Curiosities of Lotus Asia", chapter 8, making it just as much "lore", if not far moreso, as some offhand character statements about Makai's size.
If Touhou characters generally had unlimited speeds, incident resolving shouldn't take hours, or even a day; incident resolving should take a few minutes at most (and that's being generous here). What are they doing in "half a day" that unlimited speed wouldn't take care of in half a minute?
"If something is described as infinite and the characters travels said area, isn't that the author portraying them to be at that speed?"
If something was only described as "infinite" via two character statements, that doesn't really "prove" anything. Those statements could be hyperbolic or otherwise nonliteral, and god knows Touhou has an abundance of nonliteral statements.
"The "bad evidence and reasoning" portion doesn't have a big effect considering the opposing side presents evidence that is either unclear, disproven, or simply false from the start."
"Most plot elements wouldn't change even if the Touhou's moved at regular human speeds."
Obviously this isn't true, since you people are so gung-ho for an "infinite speed" rating. Even if we accepted this line of reasoning, then there's no particular reason to support "infinite speed" over, say, subsonic speed.
"Yes, visuals play some roles. But saying visuals of a video game are somehow more important than what we are TOLD seems, illogical. And being frank, that's the best I can even say to it. I'm pretty sure it was stated multiple times previously how almost every single video games portray the events slower than what it actually is with the prime example being Sonic."
Sonic has, like, a dozen guidebook/databook statements, scaling to laser-dodging feats, and an outrunning-a-black-hole feat to back up his current FTL rating.
Touhou has two character statements and nothing else to back up "infinite" Makai.
They are not the same. Stop comparing them.
"His justification was "Touhou is a visual series" which falls flat and at best is just nonsensical reasoning. What is happening within the universe ≠ the visuals being presented. The situations where gameplay > statements is very, very little. And this is simply not one of them. There is absolutely zero reasoning for why the gameplay > dialogue/statements in this scenario."
"What is happening within the universe ≠ the visuals being presented."
Is this some weird joke I'm not getting? How do you separate what is "actually happening" from the visual depictions themselves? What occurs in the gameplay is not sone weird simulacrum shadow-puppet play of what's "actually happening" in some transcendental "lore" realm, it's generally an essential element of the story itself (excepting gameplay mechanics, of course).
And neither the visuals in this game nor the "lore" in any other 2hu games support "infinite speed" Touhou.
I'm pretty sure a good 55% of our video game profile stats come from gameplay as well, making it downright hypocritical to entirely juxtapose gameplay and "lore" like what is being done right now.
"Lore takes precedence over gameplay on this site. This is nothing new. Examples of this are TES and GoW, the former having High 1-B attacks but in gameplay being nothing special, such as a fireball that visually cant destroy a building. Games would be quite unplayable otherwise."
There are a number of extenuating circumstances as to why TES and GoW are rated the way they are, which don't apply to Touhou. TES has literal books of "lore". GoW has a bunch of author statements on Twitter. Makai being "infinite" in Touhou has precisely two character statements to back it up. Character statements aren't "lore", and they don't mean anything by themselves.
Stop comparing verses to each other when the comparisons don't apply.
"I'm not gonna answer everything cause I'm pretty sure 99% of those points were already shot down in previous threads (so I'll just let someone answer or like...copy&paste, whatever)."
They weren't. The "they only went to an intermediate space between the Earth and false moon" argument I brought up certainly wasn't. This hyperbolic argumentation only hurts your side.
"The last part I want to address though. What does he mean by "portray"?"
What do you not gey? Don't you understand what "portray" means in this context? I'm talking about their actions, feats, and exploits in any given 2hu plotline. And in no other plotline are 2hus depicted with speeds even mildly approaching "infinite".
Even if we took the Palanquin Ship feat as real, it would just be an outlier, given that there is practically nothing else that supports "infinite speed" Touhou, and the other storylines depicted them as having far more limited speeds.
Hell, we even have Rinnosuke, a man who regularly interacts with Reimu Hakurei and is quitely closely acquainted with her (so he should know what he's talking about) saying that with Reimu, incident resolving usually takes several hours, or even a day. This comes from "Curiosities of Lotus Asia", chapter 8, making it just as much "lore", if not far moreso, as some offhand character statements about Makai's size.
If Touhou characters generally had unlimited speeds, incident resolving shouldn't take hours, or even a day; incident resolving should take a few minutes at most (and that's being generous here). What are they doing in "half a day" that unlimited speed wouldn't take care of in half a minute?
"If something is described as infinite and the characters travels said area, isn't that the author portraying them to be at that speed?"
If something was only described as "infinite" via two character statements, that doesn't really "prove" anything. Those statements could be hyperbolic or otherwise nonliteral, and god knows Touhou has an abundance of nonliteral statements.
"The "bad evidence and reasoning" portion doesn't have a big effect considering the opposing side presents evidence that is either unclear, disproven, or simply false from the start."
"Most plot elements wouldn't change even if the Touhou's moved at regular human speeds."
Obviously this isn't true, since you people are so gung-ho for an "infinite speed" rating. Even if we accepted this line of reasoning, then there's no particular reason to support "infinite speed" over, say, subsonic speed.
"Yes, visuals play some roles. But saying visuals of a video game are somehow more important than what we are TOLD seems, illogical. And being frank, that's the best I can even say to it. I'm pretty sure it was stated multiple times previously how almost every single video games portray the events slower than what it actually is with the prime example being Sonic."
Sonic has, like, a dozen guidebook/databook statements, scaling to laser-dodging feats, and an outrunning-a-black-hole feat to back up his current FTL rating.
Touhou has two character statements and nothing else to back up "infinite" Makai.
They are not the same. Stop comparing them.
"His justification was "Touhou is a visual series" which falls flat and at best is just nonsensical reasoning. What is happening within the universe ≠ the visuals being presented. The situations where gameplay > statements is very, very little. And this is simply not one of them. There is absolutely zero reasoning for why the gameplay > dialogue/statements in this scenario."
"What is happening within the universe ≠ the visuals being presented."
Is this some weird joke I'm not getting? How do you separate what is "actually happening" from the visual depictions themselves? What occurs in the gameplay is not sone weird simulacrum shadow-puppet play of what's "actually happening" in some transcendental "lore" realm, it's generally an essential element of the story itself (excepting gameplay mechanics, of course).
And neither the visuals in this game nor the "lore" in any other 2hu games support "infinite speed" Touhou.
I'm pretty sure a good 55% of our video game profile stats come from gameplay as well, making it downright hypocritical to entirely juxtapose gameplay and "lore" like what is being done right now.
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Gotcha, Gotcha. So their actions of catching up to a ship (that I'm pretty sure multiple people already showed the captain has little control over it) crossing a land that is described to be infinite (with nothing else really debunking it besides the whole "travel to the edge thing" which from my knowledge, is accepted here), while battling isn't a showcase of the feat? But the scrolling background, I presume, is? Just wanted to make sure I truly understand your point. I don't think the "no other plotline" thing is accurate considering I remember a different example but I don't know much about it. So, assuming someone else brings it up, I'll just let then handle it.
Why would it? Speed is important and all when it comes to resolving an incident but every single time, they have no idea where to go and nor a reason to really travel at high speeds. (Besides the ship). Yes, they could explore Gensokyo in less than a minute. But they DO gather clues and in some cases straight up find the culprit and get folded. (Antimony of Common Flowers seems to support the idea of characters straight up losing and waiting before attacking again). And I don't think this is uncommon given the fact the characters are shown to lose or fail to complete their objective. Rinnosuke's comment has nothing to do with Reimu's speed of travel. Simply how long it takes to figure things out and put a stop to an incident. (Which again, speed only plays a part of). I'm not sure why you used Rinnosuke as "evidence" when his comment doesn't even address Reimu's actual speed.
I'm not here to prove Touhou's infinite speed. I'm here to directly point out your evidence. Again, your stance is that the gameplay should take precedence over the events/dialogue. The issue is, you're failing to showcase WHY. There is no indication, implications, or even logical reasoning to even hint at a statement of "Yeah, the characters are slower because background". From what we know, we have statements (and I guess feats would mix with said statements) vs a background. And...that's pretty much the focus of your "debunk". Which, again. Falls flat.
There is. One is/was easily disproven countless times while the other struggles to get disproven. Probably an example, but a bad one. In your example, there are countless of reasons to deny characters moving at SubSonic speed. There is very little evidence to deny the infinite speed and most evidence, again, aren't good enough. (Some are valid but it tends to be rare). The problem is team support actively engages and fully explains themselves. Providing as much evidence as possible and as much reasoning as possible. While the other side, simply doesn't. While I don't necessarily care for the speed on this site. I'm not going to believe a side that is consistently incorrect with the information they present over the side that at least provides evidence and valid reasoning to support their logic/idea.
"How do you separate what is actually happening from the visuals depiction themselves"...because frames and background speeds aren't valid examples... because in most situations (especially within the spellcards themselves/mangas), we see characters approach speeds that we never see in gameplay.
There's a difference between a cutscene showcasing a character repeatedly failing to dodge lightning. And a screen simply used as a canvas for the players to...you know...play on. Especially when nothing in the entirety of Touhou even pokes at the idea of "The gameplay matters" when it doesn't. Which is the point. You keep trying to poke at reasonings/statements when your biggest (and the reason I say biggest is because thus far you constantly bring it up) is the background of a videogame that (somehow) you deem more important than what is being said. You constantly bring up questions...
Why would the ship slow down when it's described to be on autopilot and hasn't reached its destination?
If for some reason you wish to deny the autopilot (which is heavily imply) Why would the captain slow down for clear enemies?
Maybe Marisa just sped up. Why wouldn't she be traveling at full speed from the start? She can fly for hours and seemingly not get tired so what's the issue?
Once again, your logic doesn't work for me. It feels like pulling at straws or stretching across the arena to smack your opponent (ARMS reference btw). The supporting side simply provides me with more solid reasoning as to WHY I should believe them or take their values and think it over. The problem is, your points don't do that. It faces a different problem than the OP. At least with the OP, there's initiative to counter. But with your points, people simply can't be bothered because it's just nonsensical. It has so little justifications or reasoning.
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Hoooooookay, let me shoot this down as quickly as possible. So much is wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
And ZUN also has plenty of statements which we use. Stuff like space and time being connected and Hell being infinite are straight up word of god. Considering ZUN is, as far as I'm aware, the only author Touhou has ever had, all of these count as author statements. The comparisons are completely fair.
And yes, we do in fact use character statements for information. We always have. And we will always continue to do so. Whether it qualifies as "lore" is pure semantics, as regardless of whatever name you give it, it's still information being given to the player.
And for the record, the consistency issue was brought up in the original upgrade thread, with Promestein accepting a 'possibly' rating due to the lack of supporting feats at the time. If we revert to a 'possibly' or 'likely' rating, then that's fine, but do keep in mind that your points about 'consistency', even taken at face value, would not remove infinite speed from the profiles.
-Fights: If two characters are comparable in speed, as they should be, then their fights would take up a significant amount of time. Just because two characters have infinite speed does not mean their fight would end in a literal instant. To give an example, Dragon Ball characters regularly fight at MFTL+ speeds, yet actual battles can take minutes if not hours. The same principle applies here.
-Losses: It is canon that Reimu does lose from time to time, something that would obviously slow her down. The most obvious example of this would be her fight against Okina, in which she lost, then had to spend time devising a counter-strategy to face her in the extra stage. Which leads me to...
-Information Gathering: Incidents are never just a straight line from Reimu's shrine to the big bad at the end; rather, a significant part of solving incidents requires learning about who the culprit is, where they are, the specifics of what they're doing, and so on. This is generally what the first 3 stages of any given game are; fight the (usually uninvolved) bosses at the beginning, gather what little information you can from them, and use that to find the true culprit. To give an example, in Unconnected Marketeers, the protags end up in a cave on youkai mountain, where Misumaru tells them that they're in the wrong spot and the true culprit lies elsewhere. Doesn't matter how fast you are; if you have bad information, it's gonna slow you down.
In conclusion, there are multiple factors that would make up the majority of those "several hours to a day", none of which impact the infinite speed ratings.
And of course, you need evidence of something being hyperbolic. Evidence that you have never provided in any instance of you claiming that something is hyperbolic.
Don't tell me you actually took my suggestions seriously and are planning a downgrade to subsonic?
I don't even know what this is really arguing against, and it doesn't bring up anything that 'debunks' infinite speed, so moving on.
And for the last time, character statements can be used as evidence. We've always used them. This shouldn't be new or controversial.
In Majora's Mask, the moon crashes into Termina once your time is up, ending the world and causing a game over. Now, due to the statement of the moon ending the world and wiping out all life, we consider this High 6-A scaling it to a planet surface destroying calc.
But what about the visuals? The moon is visually not equal to a real moon in any size, and is visually moving at a veritable snails pace when impacting Termina; using your interpretation of visuals >>> lore, calculating the destructive potential of the moon as it is visually portrayed probably wouldn't even scrape tier 6 at all, let alone wipe out a planet.
But you know what, Mal? We accept the former interpretation (the High 6-A one) because no one in this wiki in their right mind is gonna throw out all the lore, all the statements, all the information and little context clues we collectively spend hours researching just because "muh visuals". I put god damn effort into researching this shit, and as sad as that is, I vastly prefer it to just blankly staring at gameplay footage and going "they don't look fast therefore they aren't fast".
Hoooooookay, let me shoot this down as quickly as possible. So much is wrong here I don't even know where to begin.
Touhou ALSO has literal books of lore. That's like, the entire point of the existence of the print works. Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, Symposium of post-Mysticism, Grimoire of Marisa, Grimoire of Usami, Strange Creators of Outer World, and this isn't even all of them. How do you outright ignore one of the most consistent sources of information I and other supporters use?
And ZUN also has plenty of statements which we use. Stuff like space and time being connected and Hell being infinite are straight up word of god. Considering ZUN is, as far as I'm aware, the only author Touhou has ever had, all of these count as author statements. The comparisons are completely fair.
And yes, we do in fact use character statements for information. We always have. And we will always continue to do so. Whether it qualifies as "lore" is pure semantics, as regardless of whatever name you give it, it's still information being given to the player.
Here's what you're not understanding: the point where the protagonists start (Eientei at ground level) and where they end up at the end of Final Stage A (the "space" Eirin mentioned) is separated by a corridor, as proven by Eirin's statement here. So, whatever length the corridor is, is the distance the protagonists traveled. And wouldn't you know it, we have numerous statements saying the corridor is infinite and endless, something that is consistent across two different games. Since the protagonists obviously didn't take a literal eternity to get there, they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. Do the math yourself; it's blatantly infinite speed.
Mal, two infinite speed feats is not an outlier. There are two distinct games in which infinite speed feats occur, with both feats being able to be performed by a majority of the cast (a total of ten characters, across both IN and UFO). Now, if this were a one-off thing, done by a single character, then yes, the point about outliers would hold weight. But that simply isn't the case.
And for the record, the consistency issue was brought up in the original upgrade thread, with Promestein accepting a 'possibly' rating due to the lack of supporting feats at the time. If we revert to a 'possibly' or 'likely' rating, then that's fine, but do keep in mind that your points about 'consistency', even taken at face value, would not remove infinite speed from the profiles.
You would do well to remember the context that most incidents take place in. Reimu never just goes from point A to point B in a straight path; incidents have multiple factors that contribute to that time:
-Fights: If two characters are comparable in speed, as they should be, then their fights would take up a significant amount of time. Just because two characters have infinite speed does not mean their fight would end in a literal instant. To give an example, Dragon Ball characters regularly fight at MFTL+ speeds, yet actual battles can take minutes if not hours. The same principle applies here.
-Losses: It is canon that Reimu does lose from time to time, something that would obviously slow her down. The most obvious example of this would be her fight against Okina, in which she lost, then had to spend time devising a counter-strategy to face her in the extra stage. Which leads me to...
-Information Gathering: Incidents are never just a straight line from Reimu's shrine to the big bad at the end; rather, a significant part of solving incidents requires learning about who the culprit is, where they are, the specifics of what they're doing, and so on. This is generally what the first 3 stages of any given game are; fight the (usually uninvolved) bosses at the beginning, gather what little information you can from them, and use that to find the true culprit. To give an example, in Unconnected Marketeers, the protags end up in a cave on youkai mountain, where Misumaru tells them that they're in the wrong spot and the true culprit lies elsewhere. Doesn't matter how fast you are; if you have bad information, it's gonna slow you down.
In conclusion, there are multiple factors that would make up the majority of those "several hours to a day", none of which impact the infinite speed ratings.
Some statements being non-literal =/= all statements being non-literal. It's a case-by-case thing, where we determine if a character is wrong based on other context. The issue here is that there is no additional context for Makai's size; those statements are all we got. Therefore, nothing contradicts them, and they're fine to use.
And of course, you need evidence of something being hyperbolic. Evidence that you have never provided in any instance of you claiming that something is hyperbolic.
I don't even know what this is really arguing against, and it doesn't bring up anything that 'debunks' infinite speed, so moving on.
I think you're misinterpreting the original point here. When playing a Sonic game, Sonic never visually moves at speeds equivalent to what we have listed on his profile. Virtually no game characters do. Yes, the laser dodging and black hole feats are indeed evidence for his ratings. But so are the infinite corridor and Palanquin Ship for Touhou. In both circumstances, it is the context surrounding the feats, and not the visuals, that determine speed.
And for the last time, character statements can be used as evidence. We've always used them. This shouldn't be new or controversial.
Let me give you an example of video game visuals not matching up with lore or story, and our wiki giving the lore precedence over visuals.
In Majora's Mask, the moon crashes into Termina once your time is up, ending the world and causing a game over. Now, due to the statement of the moon ending the world and wiping out all life, we consider this High 6-A scaling it to a planet surface destroying calc.
But what about the visuals? The moon is visually not equal to a real moon in any size, and is visually moving at a veritable snails pace when impacting Termina; using your interpretation of visuals >>> lore, calculating the destructive potential of the moon as it is visually portrayed probably wouldn't even scrape tier 6 at all, let alone wipe out a planet.
But you know what, Mal? We accept the former interpretation (the High 6-A one) because no one in this wiki in their right mind is gonna throw out all the lore, all the statements, all the information and little context clues we collectively spend hours researching just because "muh visuals". I put god damn effort into researching this shit, and as sad as that is, I vastly prefer it to just blankly staring at gameplay footage and going "they don't look fast therefore they aren't fast".
Vietthai96
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I think both Malotek and Mokou should stop this proxying, you two will just go in circle with argument again and will make the thread a mess, it is the best if we wait for Saikou, this thread is not going anywhere at all.
Also to Malomtek, while i'm on the neutral side and did think that Infinite speed Touhou need better evidences, using pure gameplay mechanic visual to debunk speed is a bad argument. Unless there is a context behind to support the gameplay visual
Also to Malomtek, while i'm on the neutral side and did think that Infinite speed Touhou need better evidences, using pure gameplay mechanic visual to debunk speed is a bad argument. Unless there is a context behind to support the gameplay visual
azontr
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Yeah, I don't plan to speak on his behalf anymore until @Saikou_The_Lewd_King comes to respond to the arguments. It is their thread, after all.
Vietthai96
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Also reply to these two arguments. This is not a debunk, again if we all use this kind of argument Immeasurable speed character should lose their speed they can travel time via raw speed but they doesn't solve any problem in the past, or the closest example - Dragon Ball character, they have MFTL speed but perform their daily activity in normal human speed. Not all author remember or know how to precisely potray superhuman speed at insane level outside combat, or all those fiction characters need to demonstrate their insane speed in normal activity; there is only few verse that demonstrate it like DC Comic (if i'm not wrong) as the author know how to demonstrate these speed precisely.
So this kind of argument is not and can not be the main argument, at best it is minor supporting evidences.
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Mal asked me to relay his message here;
"I need you to relay these messages for me, since Saikou the Lewd King doesn't look to reappear anytime soon and I need to keep up the wank refutation until he comes back.
The message is down below, but I'd advise you not to post it until Saikou comes back, or someone can get him to post again:
"Gotcha, Gotcha. So their actions of catching up to a ship (that I'm pretty sure multiple people already showed the captain has little control over it) crossing a land that is described to be infinite (with nothing else really debunking it besides the whole "travel to the edge thing" which from my knowledge, is accepted here), while battling isn't a showcase of the feat? But the scrolling background, I presume, is? Just wanted to make sure I truly understand your point. I don't think the "no other plotline" thing is accurate considering I remember a different example but I don't know much about it. So, assuming someone else brings it up, I'll just let then handle it."
What are you talking about? I'm saying that even if the Palanquin Ship feat's current "approved" description was accurate, it would still just be an outlier, as evidenced by the fact that 2hus never display unlimited or arbitrarily high speed levels otherwise.
Who brought up the scrolling background and ship control here? Not me. Why are you acting you you didn't really read the past threads, and then reference stuff you could have only known about if you did - or if someone on Discord fed you the information? Especially when the references have no relevance to the current argument at hand? It just makes it look like you're somehow unable or afraid to actually take the bulk of my (current) arguments on your own.
"Why would it? Speed is important and all when it comes to resolving an incident but every single time, they have no idea where to go and nor a reason to really travel at high speeds. (Besides the ship). Yes, they could explore Gensokyo in less than a minute. But they DO gather clues and in some cases straight up find the culprit and get folded. (Antimony of Common Flowers seems to support the idea of characters straight up losing and waiting before attacking again). And I don't think this is uncommon given the fact the characters are shown to lose or fail to complete their objective. Rinnosuke's comment has nothing to do with Reimu's speed of travel. Simply how long it takes to figure things out and put a stop to an incident. (Which again, speed only plays a part of). I'm not sure why you used Rinnosuke as "evidence" when his comment doesn't even address Reimu's actual speed."
You don't seem to understand the implications of "infinite speed", so let me explain this to you:
If 2hus generally had infinite speed, then it shouldn't take "less than a minute" to explore Gensokyo, it should. There should be no reason for them to be moving at a "finite speed mode" when investigating anything, because time would basically be permanently frozen to them while moving at infinite speed. This applies just the same to battles, as even a second would be a literal eternity to infinite speed fighters.
Saying that "Rinnosuke's comment has nothing to do with Reimu's speed of travel" is just bullshit. Nothing in 2hu should take any particularly high amount of "real time" if we're dealing with infinite speed characters.
"I'm not here to prove Touhou's infinite speed. I'm here to directly point out your evidence. Again, your stance is that the gameplay should take precedence over the events/dialogue. The issue is, you're failing to showcase WHY. There is no indication, implications, or even logical reasoning to even hint at a statement of "Yeah, the characters are slower because background". From what we know, we have statements (and I guess feats would mix with said statements) vs a background. And...that's pretty much the focus of your "debunk". Which, again. Falls flat."
My argument is not (just) about the gameplay, it's about the portrayal of 2hus in general.
There was even a point made in another thread, where in an official manga, Reimu and Marisa were unable to catch a chupacabra because it was able to move really really fast, but Sakuya was able to catch it because she can move "faster than light". You mileage on that may vary, but the point remains that's proof positive that 2hus don't have "infinite" speed.
"There is. One is/was easily disproven countless times while the other struggles to get disproven. Probably an example, but a bad one. In your example, there are countless of reasons to deny characters moving at SubSonic speed. There is very little evidence to deny the infinite speed and most evidence, again, aren't good enough. (Some are valid but it tends to be rare). The problem is team support actively engages and fully explains themselves. Providing as much evidence as possible and as much reasoning as possible. While the other side, simply doesn't. While I don't necessarily care for the speed on this site. I'm not going to believe a side that is consistently incorrect with the information they present over the side that at least provides evidence and valid reasoning to support their logic/idea."
Saying "I don't necessarily care for the speed on this site" while also visibly being partial to only one side in this debate isn't a good way to purport to be "unbiased", and either way, I could say the exact same thing, but with the positions reversed.
"My side is better than your side" isn't a real argument.
""How do you separate what is actually happening from the visuals depiction themselves"...because frames and background speeds aren't valid examples... because in most situations (especially within the spellcards themselves/mangas), we see characters approach speeds that we never see in gameplay."
And a manga showed Reimu and Marisa being unable to catch a chupacabra, but Sakuya being able to catch it because she can move "faster than light".
Hell, Marisa herself is impressed that the Master Spark moves at light speed.
We ignored these things when rating 2hus as MFTL+ because there was some feat of moving interstellar distances and whatnot, but it's still clear that 2hus are meant to have some finite speed limit, going by "lore" and "author portrayal".
"There's a difference between a cutscene showcasing a character repeatedly failing to dodge lightning. And a screen simply used as a canvas for the players to...you know...play on. Especially when nothing in the entirety of Touhou even pokes at the idea of "The gameplay matters" when it doesn't. Which is the point. You keep trying to poke at reasonings/statements when your biggest (and the reason I say biggest is because thus far you constantly bring it up) is the background of a videogame that (somehow) you deem more important than what is being said. You constantly bring up questions..."
The gameplay "doesn't matter" even though it's used to continue the story as such? Ridiculous. And I repeat, it's not (just) about the background scrolling, it's about the general character portrayals as a whole.
The 2hu backgrounds aren't simply "canvases" to begin with. We aren't dealing with open world or platforming games, we're dealing with bullet hells. I don't even know why you made that argument to begin with.
I'm skipping over the rest of Angelzewolf's post, and even most of Mokou's proxy post, as they're just more of the same.
"Here's what you're not understanding: the point where the protagonists start (Eientei at ground level) and where they end up at the end of Final Stage A (the "space" Eirin mentioned) is separated by a corridor, as proven by Eirin's statement here. So, whatever length the corridor is, is the distance the protagonists traveled. And wouldn't you know it, we have numerous statements saying the corridor is infinite and endless, something that is consistent across two different games. Since the protagonists obviously didn't take a literal eternity to get there, they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. Do the math yourself; it's blatantly infinite speed."
Read the quote again yourself. The corridor is very explicitly stated to extend between the Earth and "false Moon", even "connecting" the two. It doesn't stop at some arbitrary point in the space between them, which would actually work against it supposedly being "infinite".
"Mal, two infinite speed feats is not an outlier."
If absolutely nothing else backs them up, and the feats in themselves are questionable, then they are outliers, irrelevant of whoever supposedly scales to them.
"You would do well to remember the context that most incidents take place in. Reimu never just goes from point A to point B in a straight path; incidents have multiple factors that contribute to that time:
-Fights: If two characters are comparable in speed, as they should be, then their fights would take up a significant amount of time. Just because two characters have infinite speed does not mean their fight would end in a literal instant. To give an example, Dragon Ball characters regularly fight at MFTL+ speeds, yet actual battles can take minutes if not hours. The same principle applies here."
You think fighting at "infinite" speeds is comparable to fighting at MFTL+ speeds. It's not. Infinite speed is qualitatively different from any number of finite speed. Even a second would be an eternity to infinite speed fighters, so this isn't a good enough reason to keep 2hus at infinite speed.
"-Losses: It is canon that Reimu does lose from time to time, something that would obviously slow her down. The most obvious example of this would be her fight against Okina, in which she lost, then had to spend time devising a counter-strategy to face her in the extra stage. Which leads me to..."
She takes losses from supposedly other infinite speed characters, in fights that logically should not take any significant amount of real time. This then leads her to think and devise strategies, presumably at infinite speeds where time would be completely frozen to her.
"-Information Gathering: Incidents are never just a straight line from Reimu's shrine to the big bad at the end; rather, a significant part of solving incidents requires learning about who the culprit is, where they are, the specifics of what they're doing, and so on. This is generally what the first 3 stages of any given game are; fight the (usually uninvolved) bosses at the beginning, gather what little information you can from them, and use that to find the true culprit. To give an example, in Unconnected Marketeers, the protags end up in a cave on youkai mountain, where Misumaru tells them that they're in the wrong spot and the true culprit lies elsewhere. Doesn't matter how fast you are; if you have bad information, it's gonna slow you down."
It doesn't matter how much information you need to gather if your zipping and zopping everywhere at infinite speeds.
Again, there should be no reason for them to be moving at a "finite speed mode" when investigating anything, because time would basically be permanently frozen to them while moving at infinite speed.
"I think you're misinterpreting the original point here. When playing a Sonic game, Sonic never visually moves at speeds equivalent to what we have listed on his profile. Virtually no game characters do. Yes, the laser dodging and black hole feats are indeed evidence for his ratings. But so are the infinite corridor and Palanquin Ship for Touhou. In both circumstances, it is the context surrounding the feats, and not the visuals, that determine speed."
The difference is, people weren't claiming that game Sonic could move at infinite speeds. They were claiming that he could move at high but finite speeds, so it "context" supported the feats (which are still visually represented).
Infinite speed is not just quantitatively, but qualitatively different than any amount of finite speed, and so naturally a significantly higher standard of proof is demanded for infinite speed claims. Two character statements about some place at the edge of an "infinite" realm do not meet this standard. Simple as.
Now that I think about it, has anything suggested that they actually traversed the whole of Makai to get to Hokkai, rather than just go directly to Hokkai from wherever their original starting point was?
"But what about the visuals? The [Majora's Mask] moon is visually not equal to a real moon in any size, and is visually moving at a veritable snails pace when impacting Termina; using your interpretation of visuals >>> lore, calculating the destructive potential of the moon as it is visually portrayed probably wouldn't even scrape tier 6 at all, let alone wipe out a planet."
The Majora's Mask moon wiping out everything in game over screens is still a part of the visuals. It's still visually depicted, and visually portrayed. It doesn't contradict anything I've said about visuals or whatever.
"This is not a debunk, again if we all use this kind of argument Immeasurable speed character should lose their speed they can travel time via raw speed but they doesn't solve any problem in the past, or the closest example - Dragon Ball character, they have MFTL speed but perform their daily activity in normal human speed. Not all author remember or know how to precisely potray superhuman speed at insane level outside combat, or all those fiction characters need to demonstrate their insane speed in normal activity; there is only few verse that demonstrate it like DC Comic (if i'm not wrong) as the author know how to demonstrate these speed precisely."
Being rated MFTL is qualitatively distinct from being rated infinite, Dragon Ball characters and the like tend to have distinct "casual" and "fighting" speeds (because something, something, "active" and "passive" ki power), and you can be ranked as "immeasurable" in speed for many different reasons beyond just "time travel with raw speed".
These are not points against "this kind of argument", these are just really poor excuses."
Pls don't keep quoting me
"I need you to relay these messages for me, since Saikou the Lewd King doesn't look to reappear anytime soon and I need to keep up the wank refutation until he comes back.
The message is down below, but I'd advise you not to post it until Saikou comes back, or someone can get him to post again:
"Gotcha, Gotcha. So their actions of catching up to a ship (that I'm pretty sure multiple people already showed the captain has little control over it) crossing a land that is described to be infinite (with nothing else really debunking it besides the whole "travel to the edge thing" which from my knowledge, is accepted here), while battling isn't a showcase of the feat? But the scrolling background, I presume, is? Just wanted to make sure I truly understand your point. I don't think the "no other plotline" thing is accurate considering I remember a different example but I don't know much about it. So, assuming someone else brings it up, I'll just let then handle it."
What are you talking about? I'm saying that even if the Palanquin Ship feat's current "approved" description was accurate, it would still just be an outlier, as evidenced by the fact that 2hus never display unlimited or arbitrarily high speed levels otherwise.
Who brought up the scrolling background and ship control here? Not me. Why are you acting you you didn't really read the past threads, and then reference stuff you could have only known about if you did - or if someone on Discord fed you the information? Especially when the references have no relevance to the current argument at hand? It just makes it look like you're somehow unable or afraid to actually take the bulk of my (current) arguments on your own.
"Why would it? Speed is important and all when it comes to resolving an incident but every single time, they have no idea where to go and nor a reason to really travel at high speeds. (Besides the ship). Yes, they could explore Gensokyo in less than a minute. But they DO gather clues and in some cases straight up find the culprit and get folded. (Antimony of Common Flowers seems to support the idea of characters straight up losing and waiting before attacking again). And I don't think this is uncommon given the fact the characters are shown to lose or fail to complete their objective. Rinnosuke's comment has nothing to do with Reimu's speed of travel. Simply how long it takes to figure things out and put a stop to an incident. (Which again, speed only plays a part of). I'm not sure why you used Rinnosuke as "evidence" when his comment doesn't even address Reimu's actual speed."
You don't seem to understand the implications of "infinite speed", so let me explain this to you:
If 2hus generally had infinite speed, then it shouldn't take "less than a minute" to explore Gensokyo, it should. There should be no reason for them to be moving at a "finite speed mode" when investigating anything, because time would basically be permanently frozen to them while moving at infinite speed. This applies just the same to battles, as even a second would be a literal eternity to infinite speed fighters.
Saying that "Rinnosuke's comment has nothing to do with Reimu's speed of travel" is just bullshit. Nothing in 2hu should take any particularly high amount of "real time" if we're dealing with infinite speed characters.
"I'm not here to prove Touhou's infinite speed. I'm here to directly point out your evidence. Again, your stance is that the gameplay should take precedence over the events/dialogue. The issue is, you're failing to showcase WHY. There is no indication, implications, or even logical reasoning to even hint at a statement of "Yeah, the characters are slower because background". From what we know, we have statements (and I guess feats would mix with said statements) vs a background. And...that's pretty much the focus of your "debunk". Which, again. Falls flat."
My argument is not (just) about the gameplay, it's about the portrayal of 2hus in general.
There was even a point made in another thread, where in an official manga, Reimu and Marisa were unable to catch a chupacabra because it was able to move really really fast, but Sakuya was able to catch it because she can move "faster than light". You mileage on that may vary, but the point remains that's proof positive that 2hus don't have "infinite" speed.
"There is. One is/was easily disproven countless times while the other struggles to get disproven. Probably an example, but a bad one. In your example, there are countless of reasons to deny characters moving at SubSonic speed. There is very little evidence to deny the infinite speed and most evidence, again, aren't good enough. (Some are valid but it tends to be rare). The problem is team support actively engages and fully explains themselves. Providing as much evidence as possible and as much reasoning as possible. While the other side, simply doesn't. While I don't necessarily care for the speed on this site. I'm not going to believe a side that is consistently incorrect with the information they present over the side that at least provides evidence and valid reasoning to support their logic/idea."
Saying "I don't necessarily care for the speed on this site" while also visibly being partial to only one side in this debate isn't a good way to purport to be "unbiased", and either way, I could say the exact same thing, but with the positions reversed.
"My side is better than your side" isn't a real argument.
""How do you separate what is actually happening from the visuals depiction themselves"...because frames and background speeds aren't valid examples... because in most situations (especially within the spellcards themselves/mangas), we see characters approach speeds that we never see in gameplay."
And a manga showed Reimu and Marisa being unable to catch a chupacabra, but Sakuya being able to catch it because she can move "faster than light".
Hell, Marisa herself is impressed that the Master Spark moves at light speed.
We ignored these things when rating 2hus as MFTL+ because there was some feat of moving interstellar distances and whatnot, but it's still clear that 2hus are meant to have some finite speed limit, going by "lore" and "author portrayal".
"There's a difference between a cutscene showcasing a character repeatedly failing to dodge lightning. And a screen simply used as a canvas for the players to...you know...play on. Especially when nothing in the entirety of Touhou even pokes at the idea of "The gameplay matters" when it doesn't. Which is the point. You keep trying to poke at reasonings/statements when your biggest (and the reason I say biggest is because thus far you constantly bring it up) is the background of a videogame that (somehow) you deem more important than what is being said. You constantly bring up questions..."
The gameplay "doesn't matter" even though it's used to continue the story as such? Ridiculous. And I repeat, it's not (just) about the background scrolling, it's about the general character portrayals as a whole.
The 2hu backgrounds aren't simply "canvases" to begin with. We aren't dealing with open world or platforming games, we're dealing with bullet hells. I don't even know why you made that argument to begin with.
I'm skipping over the rest of Angelzewolf's post, and even most of Mokou's proxy post, as they're just more of the same.
"Here's what you're not understanding: the point where the protagonists start (Eientei at ground level) and where they end up at the end of Final Stage A (the "space" Eirin mentioned) is separated by a corridor, as proven by Eirin's statement here. So, whatever length the corridor is, is the distance the protagonists traveled. And wouldn't you know it, we have numerous statements saying the corridor is infinite and endless, something that is consistent across two different games. Since the protagonists obviously didn't take a literal eternity to get there, they crossed an infinite distance in finite time. Do the math yourself; it's blatantly infinite speed."
Read the quote again yourself. The corridor is very explicitly stated to extend between the Earth and "false Moon", even "connecting" the two. It doesn't stop at some arbitrary point in the space between them, which would actually work against it supposedly being "infinite".
"Mal, two infinite speed feats is not an outlier."
If absolutely nothing else backs them up, and the feats in themselves are questionable, then they are outliers, irrelevant of whoever supposedly scales to them.
"You would do well to remember the context that most incidents take place in. Reimu never just goes from point A to point B in a straight path; incidents have multiple factors that contribute to that time:
-Fights: If two characters are comparable in speed, as they should be, then their fights would take up a significant amount of time. Just because two characters have infinite speed does not mean their fight would end in a literal instant. To give an example, Dragon Ball characters regularly fight at MFTL+ speeds, yet actual battles can take minutes if not hours. The same principle applies here."
You think fighting at "infinite" speeds is comparable to fighting at MFTL+ speeds. It's not. Infinite speed is qualitatively different from any number of finite speed. Even a second would be an eternity to infinite speed fighters, so this isn't a good enough reason to keep 2hus at infinite speed.
"-Losses: It is canon that Reimu does lose from time to time, something that would obviously slow her down. The most obvious example of this would be her fight against Okina, in which she lost, then had to spend time devising a counter-strategy to face her in the extra stage. Which leads me to..."
She takes losses from supposedly other infinite speed characters, in fights that logically should not take any significant amount of real time. This then leads her to think and devise strategies, presumably at infinite speeds where time would be completely frozen to her.
"-Information Gathering: Incidents are never just a straight line from Reimu's shrine to the big bad at the end; rather, a significant part of solving incidents requires learning about who the culprit is, where they are, the specifics of what they're doing, and so on. This is generally what the first 3 stages of any given game are; fight the (usually uninvolved) bosses at the beginning, gather what little information you can from them, and use that to find the true culprit. To give an example, in Unconnected Marketeers, the protags end up in a cave on youkai mountain, where Misumaru tells them that they're in the wrong spot and the true culprit lies elsewhere. Doesn't matter how fast you are; if you have bad information, it's gonna slow you down."
It doesn't matter how much information you need to gather if your zipping and zopping everywhere at infinite speeds.
Again, there should be no reason for them to be moving at a "finite speed mode" when investigating anything, because time would basically be permanently frozen to them while moving at infinite speed.
"I think you're misinterpreting the original point here. When playing a Sonic game, Sonic never visually moves at speeds equivalent to what we have listed on his profile. Virtually no game characters do. Yes, the laser dodging and black hole feats are indeed evidence for his ratings. But so are the infinite corridor and Palanquin Ship for Touhou. In both circumstances, it is the context surrounding the feats, and not the visuals, that determine speed."
The difference is, people weren't claiming that game Sonic could move at infinite speeds. They were claiming that he could move at high but finite speeds, so it "context" supported the feats (which are still visually represented).
Infinite speed is not just quantitatively, but qualitatively different than any amount of finite speed, and so naturally a significantly higher standard of proof is demanded for infinite speed claims. Two character statements about some place at the edge of an "infinite" realm do not meet this standard. Simple as.
Now that I think about it, has anything suggested that they actually traversed the whole of Makai to get to Hokkai, rather than just go directly to Hokkai from wherever their original starting point was?
"But what about the visuals? The [Majora's Mask] moon is visually not equal to a real moon in any size, and is visually moving at a veritable snails pace when impacting Termina; using your interpretation of visuals >>> lore, calculating the destructive potential of the moon as it is visually portrayed probably wouldn't even scrape tier 6 at all, let alone wipe out a planet."
The Majora's Mask moon wiping out everything in game over screens is still a part of the visuals. It's still visually depicted, and visually portrayed. It doesn't contradict anything I've said about visuals or whatever.
"This is not a debunk, again if we all use this kind of argument Immeasurable speed character should lose their speed they can travel time via raw speed but they doesn't solve any problem in the past, or the closest example - Dragon Ball character, they have MFTL speed but perform their daily activity in normal human speed. Not all author remember or know how to precisely potray superhuman speed at insane level outside combat, or all those fiction characters need to demonstrate their insane speed in normal activity; there is only few verse that demonstrate it like DC Comic (if i'm not wrong) as the author know how to demonstrate these speed precisely."
Being rated MFTL is qualitatively distinct from being rated infinite, Dragon Ball characters and the like tend to have distinct "casual" and "fighting" speeds (because something, something, "active" and "passive" ki power), and you can be ranked as "immeasurable" in speed for many different reasons beyond just "time travel with raw speed".
These are not points against "this kind of argument", these are just really poor excuses."
- Status
