Tornadus Problem

[WeeklyBattles]

So looking at Tornadus' profile, I noticed two problems with the calc that justifies its 6-C rating...

1. The calculation itself isnt even for Tornadus' feat, its for a Shin Megami Tensei character...

2. The calculation uses the total energy of a hurricane generated over a 7 day period.

For a calculation like this are we supposed to rate characters based on the amount of energy generated every second or in total?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

1. The calc is just a general storm thing that's valid for any character who performs the feat. Granted, it should link to the page that the calc links to.

2. Yes. It would downgrade Torandus to around High 7-C. Not sure if he'd scale to any greater feat.

On a side note, this would also effect every 6-C SMT character.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

1. Okay

2. Yeah that's what I figured, I even made a blog a while back on hurricanes and tornadoes and it's only High 7-C to create a full hurricane. I dont think Tornadus has any better of a feat so this would be a decent downgrade...

Do we even have any 6-C SMT characters here...? Also a side note of my own, i just noticed Demi-Fiend is 7-C scaled from an 8-A feat of tornado creation...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So should Tornadus, Thundurus, and Landorus be downgraded to High 7-C?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bump

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think a few of the low tier demons are scaled from the calc, but I can't think of much off the top of my head.

I have no idea why Demi-Fiend is 7-C for scaling off a 8-A character.

Bleh. Sucks that Unova is devoid of Kanto and Johto Pokemon. Since theirs no wild Gyarados or Tyranitar, they might have to.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Isn't Gigalith capable of blowing away a mountain? They could scale off that.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Theirs a lowball calc of that that yielded 530 Kilotons, or Large Town level+. I guess it helps solidify their rankings, at least.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@J-Man The feat was calced at High 7-C, so it anything the trio would be 'At least High 7-C'

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Tyranitars and Metagross exist in Unova (in fact it's the only spot in the series with fully evolved wild ones ya can catch) Outside of that I got nothing that could sway the tiers for them.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark Well if they are rated off of that calc they'd have to be downgraded as well :/

I mean...are there any other 7-C feats for him or characters on his level? If not he'd have to be knocked down to 8-A...

Could they possibly be scaled off of Volcarona? That's the best non-legendary feat for the Unova pokemon i think...

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@J-Man

Do they? Where?

@Weekly

I don't believe so

I think they could scale off of Volcarona.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I could dust my copy off and check to see what the lore about them at the shrine says but that'd require effort. I brought up Ttar and Meta because Ttar is solid mountain level casually and if they'd scale off Ttar then they'd be at least 7-A, unfortunately I'm not sure if they can be scaled off them as there's nothing supporting it outside of legend status which isn't gonna cut it. Volcarona seems plausible as they're both regarded as legends by the people of Unova despite one being a pseudo-pseudo.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

@Darkanine Ttar is route 15, Netagross is giant chasm.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dark Tyranitar appears only on Route 15 as a super rare encounter in rustling grass after you beat the main game, so they may be able to scale after all...but if not Volcarona is the way to go

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that we should scale from the energy generated in a single strike, or 1 second, not a prolonged period of time.

 

[Imaginym]

I own Gen 5 games, but I'm lazy, so, since The J-ManRequiem mentioned booting up his game to find out what the text was, I decided to look into it myself.

First up, I found this text dump. https://gist.github.com/rogersachan/46c6395e068c8d05906381b2ef07adfb

As it says, "this file has been truncated, but you can view the full file". So while the text is a little messy with strange characters replacing other kinds, it should still be readable.

Cleaning it up, & copy-pasting, here's the dialogue:

If you wreck Great Landorus's little shrine, it'll cause a bad bad storm! That's not true! The Pokémon that brings bad windstorms is a different Pokémon! No, silly, you've got it wrong! This is a shrine for Great Landorus. It punished a Pokémon that did a bad thing! If you wreck the shrine, it can't punish that stormy Pokémon if it comes back! But that doesn't make any sense! If a Pokémon does a bad thing, Great Landorus will come to help us, whether it has a shrine or not! You're the silly one! No, YOU'RE silly! Hey, wait!

Further backing it up, this video shows part of an uncommentated playthrough of Pokemon White: https://youtu.be/shyZr7JdCe0?t=13m35s

I've linked it at that time, since that's around when the conversation I copy-pasted starts. At about 13 minutes & 35 seconds in.

Interestingly, the text dump I also linked shows that the text is slightly different between versions, as we can tell, since that video is of Pokemon White. Presumably, this dialogue:

That's not true! The Pokémon that brings bad thunderstorms is a different Pokémon!

Would be in Pokemon Black, in place of: That's not true! The Pokémon that brings bad windstorms is a different Pokémon! In Pokemon White, as we see in the video.


However, perhaps the more interesting dialogue comes after the two who started the conversation run off past the player character, about a minute later into the video.

This little shrine is dedicated to a Pokémon called Landorus. They say that when Tornadus and Thundurus were whipping up storms that damaged houses and fields all over the Unova region, Landorus made them stop. That's a story from way long ago, when my grandpa was a little boy. So if Tornadus and Thundurus come here again, Great Landorus may come back. That's what my grandpa told me!

So perhaps the most interesting dialogue there, in my opinion, is "They say that when Tornadus and Thundurus were whipping up storms that damaged houses and fields all over the Unova region, Landorus made them stop."


It may also be worth checking out these bits of dialogue:

In Pokemon White Version:

In the Unova region, you see, there is a Pokémon called Thundurus that creates thunderstorms. It flies around the region and sets loose wild winds and crashing lightning.

Long ago, I was a sharp-lookin' young man, and my wife was a fiiine-lookin' girl. This is a story from way back then. Right around here, a certain Pokémon taught a lesson to Thundurus, who had been causin' trouble dropping lightning. For around 30 years after that, Thundurus kept calm, and it hid somewhere around here.

There is a Pokémon that quieted Thundurus. I remember hearing that there is a shrine built to honor that Pokémon somewhere on Route 14.

In Pokemon Black Version:

In the Unova region, you see, there is a Pokémon called Tornadus that causes windstorms. It flies around the region while letting loose wild winds and pounding rain.

Long ago, I was a sharp-lookin' young man, and my wife was a fiiine-lookin' girl. This is a story from way back then. Right around here, a certain Pokémon taught a lesson to Tornadus, who had been causin' trouble brewing storms. For around 30 years after that, Tornadus kept calm, and it hid somewhere around here.

There is a Pokémon that quieted Tornadus. I remember hearing that there is a shrine built to honor that Pokémon somewhere on Route 14. In both versions:

I thought I would try to catch it, but it flies around so fast that even when I thought I'd found it, it just flew away. In one day, it can make a lap around the entire Unova region. In the mornings, it's in the south, and in the evenings, it's in the north. It shows up here in the evenings! It seems like someone somewhere taught that stormy Pokémon a lesson. I wonder if it was...?

If you go in the tall grass during a storm, it might pop out.

Finding video verification of all this dialogue is difficult, let alone uncommentated versions. This was the best I could come up with, & shows at least some of the dialogue, as well as an interesting scene: https://youtu.be/Cncyfyycuqc?t=3m25s Interestingly, at about 5:35, the player character exits the house, the storm on Route 7 seemingly having ceased. However, Tornadus/Thundurus then shows up, & with it a storm, followed by dialogue of. Whew, what a storm! Apparently it's that Pokémon's doing! The storm then slows down to a halt when Tornadus/Thundurus leaves. Possible feat?


In any case, the most interesting dialogue here, IMHO is: "In one day, it can make a lap around the entire Unova region. In the mornings, it's in the south, and in the evenings, it's in the north. It shows up here in the evenings!"


As far as I know, from what I can tell reading guides & viewing videos, the event involving the old lady's supper & story for the player character happens after they beat the 8th Gym in B1/W1, & someone in a gate alerts them to a storm on Route 7, when the Player Character is on their way to Route 10. Going there is their choice, I believe, as is talking to the NPCs, Granny's story aside. Hence video of most of the dialogue being hard to find.

If someone can record video of the dialogue of the NPCs in Granny's house for video verification, that would be nice, though.


ANYWAY, In summary:

- After the Player Character beats the 8th Gym, Tornadus/Thundurus create a storm on all of Route 7.

- After the Player Character is called into Granny's House for supper & storytime in a cutscene, when they exit, the storm has ceased.

- Moments after they exit, however, Tornadus/Thundurus shows up, & also bringing/creating a storm, which disappears shortly after it leaves. Such storms are present on the routes they can be encountered in while either Legendary Pokemon is "roaming" as long as the Pokemon is there.

- Dialogue claims that "they say" that Tornadus & Thundurus created storms that damaged houses & fields all over the Unova region, & Landorus stopped them.

- According to an old man's story, "long ago", when he & his wife were still young, "a certain Pokemon" (Almost certainly Landorus) "taught a lesson" to Tornadus/Thundurus, & Tornadus/Thundurus then kept calm for 30 years after that.

- Dialogue claims that Tornadus/Thundurus can make a lap around the entire Unova region in one day & that it shows up in the South in the mornings, the North in the evenings, & "here" (Granny's house on Route 7.) in the evenings as well.


Hopefully this info isn't too redundant, & actually proves useful! Thanks for any time, consideration, &/or effort you give this!

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Imaginym

• Creating a storm would be Low 7-C
• The calc for a storm that can damage houses is what it is currently rated by, High 7-C
• A calc for it making a full lap around Unova is what it s currently rated by, Hypersonic+

 

[Imaginym]

Curses, my information WAS redundant! Darnit!

Apologies if I'm going on about this a bit too much, but....

I doubt the range of the storm matters, since it was stated to damage houses & fields "all over the Unova region"?

Also, I doubt it does, but the fact that did it "all over the Unova region" possibly extend the timeframe? The reason the calc gives a 6-C result is because it uses the total energy of a hurricane generated over a 7 day period & it doesn't match up because it's for a SMT character.


A possibly defined range is that of the 2 storms created quite quickly on Route 7. 1 the Player Character is alerted about en route to Route 10, & the other that starts in a cutscene visible to the player shortly after the previous had started.

It probably doesn't make much difference, but if a storm that can DAMAGE houses is 7-C, is it even a small upgrade to "blow away" houses?

White	Tornadus expels massive energy from its tail, causing severe storms. Its power is great enough to blow houses away.

In any case, if none of those work out, it seems like if we want Tornadus/Thundurus to keep their ratings, we'd have to scale them off of the wild Tyranitar present on Route 15 in B1/W1.

Hopefully I haven't been too much of a redundant bother.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Imaginym The calc is for a hurricane that can already blow houses away, and the range of the hurricane likely wouldnt increase the tier unless it goes from a normal-sized category 3 hurricane to something much, much larger...

I think 'At least 7-A' scaling from Tyranitar should be fine, what does everyone else think?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I'm fine with that scaling, that is if someone can give reasoning as to why since if Tornadus can be scaled off Ttar then basicaslly every other legend can, it's a bit of a slippery slope if ya ask me. Although personally 7-A literally every legend besides Phione is something id be okay with honestly.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

We consider Legendary Pokémon as superior to all other pokemon in their region, so the trio would logically scale to the 7-A Tyranitars that are encountered naturally in the wild in Unova

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Then I guess that works just fine.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with a downgrade.

 

[Cropfist]

Probably.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nvm, they'd be tiered just like Entei, Suicune, and Raikou, 'At least 7-A'

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Okay, the changes have been made, closing