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Someone becoming more skilled than you then you skill stomping is straight out wrong. It's not a testament of skill. If 682 really had grown more skilled than 076, then 682 would have skill stomped.WeeklyBattles said:
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Top 10 Strongest Swordsmen
- Thread starter YungManzi
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- lists weapon mastery
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That's nothing about skill. Stella was much more stronger and more durable than ikki (ikki could not put a dent in her barrier). Ikki still won. I never used that as an argument though. However:WeeklyBattles said:
- The way ikki could perfectly block via skill attacks that would have crushed him
- The way he could copy Stella's style
- The way he can stat amp to oblivion via skill
- His precog and senses
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Skill is very funky to objectively define when comparing verses.
In some it's just simple skill as in increasing your combat effectiveness, finding weakpoints/targeting vitals through anatomic knowledge, anticipating moves through experience and observation.(includes characters who are already human/superhuman, but can fight or use their powers better due to skill)
In some skill gives you physically impossible, but still semi-quantifiable feats related to martial arts (if you stretch it), like attacking much faster/harder than your body normally could at it's limits , gaining Superhuman attributes through limited body control, learning martial arts by watching it's basics and expanding upon it with your general knowledge/experience, ignoring durability to an extent by pressure points, learning stat amps by willpower or some kind of technique,muscle based precognition(not predicting the future or reading minds), etc.
In some SKILL' is reality warping magic,mental superpowers, or extreme biological manipulation, who allows characters to perform impossible feats that can't be compared objectively through any means, like cutting concepts, casting magic through swordsmanship, seeing the future and reading minds, restarting hearts,attaining control of every cell in your body, perception manipulation, flight,energy beams,teleportation, etc.
In some it's just simple skill as in increasing your combat effectiveness, finding weakpoints/targeting vitals through anatomic knowledge, anticipating moves through experience and observation.(includes characters who are already human/superhuman, but can fight or use their powers better due to skill)
In some skill gives you physically impossible, but still semi-quantifiable feats related to martial arts (if you stretch it), like attacking much faster/harder than your body normally could at it's limits , gaining Superhuman attributes through limited body control, learning martial arts by watching it's basics and expanding upon it with your general knowledge/experience, ignoring durability to an extent by pressure points, learning stat amps by willpower or some kind of technique,muscle based precognition(not predicting the future or reading minds), etc.
In some SKILL' is reality warping magic,mental superpowers, or extreme biological manipulation, who allows characters to perform impossible feats that can't be compared objectively through any means, like cutting concepts, casting magic through swordsmanship, seeing the future and reading minds, restarting hearts,attaining control of every cell in your body, perception manipulation, flight,energy beams,teleportation, etc.
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Why is Composite Human in the list while Characters from Rurouni Kenshi are not?
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CH should be removed, we already discussed it earlier in the thread
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Why is The Operator also so high in the list? I have played more than 1000h Warframe (still playing) and no matter what you bring on the table he should be the lower here. He doesn't do anything more special than what a Composite Human does even when knowing all Mod Stances, CH will know more Art Styles regarding a Sword.
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Why is Sion still so low. Questions over questions
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Why is sidious so low too?
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Okay so
Why was Mibu removed completely?
Why is the operator even on this list at all they aren't a swordsman they use the frames to fight
Why is Ikki or Juuzou above Assassin
Why was Mibu removed completely?
Why is the operator even on this list at all they aren't a swordsman they use the frames to fight
Why is Ikki or Juuzou above Assassin
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Not to rain on the parade but i still dont see how assassin and Yasuo are more skilled than Sion.
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They would both destroy Assassin in an 1 on 1 fight.Paul Frank said:
Ok so anyway. Anyone disagree with Juuzou being 1st for now and Khorne 2nd? There is nothing Khorne can do to predict concept cutting with sheer sword skill that will cut things even outside of the swords' range therefore it'll be extremely hard to dodge and impossible to block.
Idk how Oryx can fair against Juuzou so can't say whether Oryx can stay first. If oryx can stay first then it's fine, only khorne goes down, while the 2nd spots go up. Though outside of Juuzou due to the concept cutting and Ikki due to the stupid stat amp i don't think anyone can beat Khorne. So a strong 2nd spot might be good.
We just gotta discuss whether Oryx can deal with the stat amp or concept cutting then decide whether he should stay in 1st or 2nd spot.
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Except neither Juuzou or Ikki would be able to see or sense Assassin or even know he exists due to vitrification
His techniques are uncopyable and impossible to adjust to thanks to knowledge of respect and harmony
At that point it's as simple as walking up to them, since they have absolutely no way of noticing him, and using tsubame gaeshi
His techniques are uncopyable and impossible to adjust to thanks to knowledge of respect and harmony
At that point it's as simple as walking up to them, since they have absolutely no way of noticing him, and using tsubame gaeshi
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1. Ikki's precog, senses etc would work there.
2. Assassin doesn't do that "via skill". It's his nature of being assassin.
3. Everyone could see him easily, including Excalibur, Emiya and archer.
4. The uncopyable is what?
But anyway "anything that's not skill is yeeted". Via skill assassin is just a guy who can attack 3 times at the same time.
2. Assassin doesn't do that "via skill". It's his nature of being assassin.
3. Everyone could see him easily, including Excalibur, Emiya and archer.
4. The uncopyable is what?
But anyway "anything that's not skill is yeeted". Via skill assassin is just a guy who can attack 3 times at the same time.
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1.Nope vitrification is specifically above top tier presence concealments that prevent much better precog and senses from allowing people to sense or see you
2.Wrong again, presence concealment is from being an assassin vitrification is like sphere boundary and earned through intensive skill
3.He was weakened and summoned as a false servant and forced to guard some steps, being completely unsenseable wouldn't really help with that and was impossible due to his summoning
4.Knowledge of respect and harmony makes everything he does impossible to replicate and copy and impossible to adjust to so his attacks will still seem as fresh and hard to adjust to as the first time he cut you
All of his abilities are via skill actually, every single one unlike Ikki's stat amps
And if we want to get technical Assassin only was able to become a servant thanks to his skill being recorded so he would also get his servant stuff anyway since his very nature as a servant technically came from skill
2.Wrong again, presence concealment is from being an assassin vitrification is like sphere boundary and earned through intensive skill
3.He was weakened and summoned as a false servant and forced to guard some steps, being completely unsenseable wouldn't really help with that and was impossible due to his summoning
4.Knowledge of respect and harmony makes everything he does impossible to replicate and copy and impossible to adjust to so his attacks will still seem as fresh and hard to adjust to as the first time he cut you
All of his abilities are via skill actually, every single one unlike Ikki's stat amps
And if we want to get technical Assassin only was able to become a servant thanks to his skill being recorded so he would also get his servant stuff anyway since his very nature as a servant technically came from skill
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1. Ikki used precog on someone who couldn't by sensed by any of the 5 senses...
2. Isn't that something assassins have due to...being an assassin? As in no one else can replicate no matter the skill due to being an assassin. Just cus it needs intensive skill doesn't mean it's done sheerly through skll. Magic in rakudai needs TONS of skill to use, yet it's still magical, not pure raw skill. Our definition of skill is "can be done by anyone as long as they can have enough skill" (at least in verse).
4. That seems like a MASSIVE NLF. It just means it cannot be copied by other people in fate due to being too hard for them. Someone like ikki who can replicate and perfect things he can't even percieve and/or copy something he experienced when he wasn't even conscious, cannot be tied down to that. It just means it needs alot of skill to master, which is well..good enough i guess.
Ikki's stat amps are almost purely via skill. He can stat amp without magic, and his stat amp in his ittou forms is actually 2x, but via skill he can push them to pretty stupid amounts.
No. His skill was recorded, means he was good enough to become a servant, he gained the boosts after he became a servant. I mean you don't want me to bring Edelweiss here to stomp the place because she broke through fate with skill and can apparently kill people by willing it do ya? She did break through fate, but the rest came as a bonus becaus she could do that.
2. Isn't that something assassins have due to...being an assassin? As in no one else can replicate no matter the skill due to being an assassin. Just cus it needs intensive skill doesn't mean it's done sheerly through skll. Magic in rakudai needs TONS of skill to use, yet it's still magical, not pure raw skill. Our definition of skill is "can be done by anyone as long as they can have enough skill" (at least in verse).
4. That seems like a MASSIVE NLF. It just means it cannot be copied by other people in fate due to being too hard for them. Someone like ikki who can replicate and perfect things he can't even percieve and/or copy something he experienced when he wasn't even conscious, cannot be tied down to that. It just means it needs alot of skill to master, which is well..good enough i guess.
Ikki's stat amps are almost purely via skill. He can stat amp without magic, and his stat amp in his ittou forms is actually 2x, but via skill he can push them to pretty stupid amounts.
No. His skill was recorded, means he was good enough to become a servant, he gained the boosts after he became a servant. I mean you don't want me to bring Edelweiss here to stomp the place because she broke through fate with skill and can apparently kill people by willing it do ya? She did break through fate, but the rest came as a bonus becaus she could do that.
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1. Vitrification like sphere boundary works on people with significantly better precog than anything in Rakudai
2. No, only Sasaki has knowledge of respect and harmony, other Assassins can be adapted to and copied if someone has the means
4. No it means the techniques are unreadable and uncopyable and either way people in fate have significantly better copying than Ikki could ever hope to achieve and people that are significantly more skilled
You've said before that his stat amps are via magic aka not skill based
No his skill was recorded and gave him the ability to become a servant. Aka becoming a servant was done through skill since without his skill he would never have became a servant
2. No, only Sasaki has knowledge of respect and harmony, other Assassins can be adapted to and copied if someone has the means
4. No it means the techniques are unreadable and uncopyable and either way people in fate have significantly better copying than Ikki could ever hope to achieve and people that are significantly more skilled
You've said before that his stat amps are via magic aka not skill based
No his skill was recorded and gave him the ability to become a servant. Aka becoming a servant was done through skill since without his skill he would never have became a servant
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1. Pretty sure none of those precogs are skill based, so..false equivalency.
2. This point was about the stealth not respect and harmony.
4. And again, pretty sure none of the guys in fate have better copy that's skill based. "Unreadable" Ikki copied something he couldn't even perceive via "oh probably something like this happened and it was probably done like that" so he did it.
Ittou Shura stat amps are via magic. As in they need magic. He can still amp his senses, reaction and stuff with sheer skill (it's gonna be added when the revisions end btw).
Yes but he didn't gain the bonuses "because he was skilled" he gained them "because he became a servant" know the difference. And example Ikki broke through fate by literally trying hard, but he didn't get all the bonuses of becoming a desperado via skill, he gained them because he became a desperado.
2. This point was about the stealth not respect and harmony.
4. And again, pretty sure none of the guys in fate have better copy that's skill based. "Unreadable" Ikki copied something he couldn't even perceive via "oh probably something like this happened and it was probably done like that" so he did it.
Ittou Shura stat amps are via magic. As in they need magic. He can still amp his senses, reaction and stuff with sheer skill (it's gonna be added when the revisions end btw).
Yes but he didn't gain the bonuses "because he was skilled" he gained them "because he became a servant" know the difference. And example Ikki broke through fate by literally trying hard, but he didn't get all the bonuses of becoming a desperado via skill, he gained them because he became a desperado.
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1. That doesn't matter at all? Precog that can see the past present and future of infinite parallel universes through magic is above precog through skill that can see the actions of one person. Also Eye of the Mind is precog gained through skill so there is skill based precog
2. Oh my bad. Well no, presence concealment is an Assassin class skill however vitrification and sphere boundary are two separate things from presence concealment that are earned through skill only and no other assassin has.
4. Why would Ikki's worse powercopy work just because its skill based when someone who literally can copy the skill of anyone by copying their weapon couldn't do that same thing. People who can copy the skill and powers of others to a much greater extent are not able to copy him so why would Ikki just because his is "skill based"
So the amps aren't taken into account with this list because thats not on the profile, nice
He became a servant because of his skill so yeah he did gain the bonuses through skill. But either way even if you try to say he didn't gain it through skill he doesn't need his servant stuff to stomp Ikki and Juuzou
2. Oh my bad. Well no, presence concealment is an Assassin class skill however vitrification and sphere boundary are two separate things from presence concealment that are earned through skill only and no other assassin has.
4. Why would Ikki's worse powercopy work just because its skill based when someone who literally can copy the skill of anyone by copying their weapon couldn't do that same thing. People who can copy the skill and powers of others to a much greater extent are not able to copy him so why would Ikki just because his is "skill based"
So the amps aren't taken into account with this list because thats not on the profile, nice
He became a servant because of his skill so yeah he did gain the bonuses through skill. But either way even if you try to say he didn't gain it through skill he doesn't need his servant stuff to stomp Ikki and Juuzou
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- It is not possible to get used to his fighting style no matter how many times he utilizes the same technique on a single foe due to his Knowledge of Respect and Harmony skill. It is the ability to "render one's attacks unreadable to the enemy", so even Saber's high Instinct cannot adapt to his fighting style after crossing blades many times. Its effect vastly improved with his unique "head-shot" techniques, so the opponent will not be able to see through his techniques even after retreating and challenging him again numerous times, always forced back to square one and fought as if it is the first encounter again
- He cannot be emotionally overwhelmed in battle due to his Vitrificatio skill, a mental state called a "heart of clear water" that was acquired after reaching the pinnacle of arduous training. He is able to maintain a cool and collected heart, regardless the situation. Facing his own death will not cause him to waver, so it is a very useful ability for a gate guardian. Mental interference from charms and fear magecraft activated by the opponent are completely negated. He watches the gate in silence with a heart of clear water, like the many trees surrounding the temple and an unwavering guardian .
- The perception of his eyes is the best among Servants, allowing him to see through the weapon and style of his opponent after crossing blades only a few times.
- Assassin's ability can be called a natural talent to sense danger. It also allows him to see that Saber is unable to use her Noble Phantasm attack due to a lack of energy.
- His secret technique, Tsubame Gaeshi, is three simultaneous sword slashes in mutually exclusive directions that can only be performed on flat ground. It is not a Noble Phantasm, but it has reached a similar level out of pure godlike skill. It should be unavoidable as long as there are no errors in its execution, making it a deadly technique. It makes him, who should be a "mere human", equal to Heroic Spirits armed with Noble Phantasms.
- Musashi believes that as a swordsman, Kojiro has already reached the state of emptiness. It is said that there is no swordsmen that can reach Infinity, a path that surely no one can ever walk upon. But for Kojiro, who attained Tsubame Gaeshi that expresses the existence and concept of Infinity, he is such a swordsman that has reached it.
Nasu: Isn't it obvious. Don't underestimate a chivalrous man person who is eligible as a Servant despite being nameless. He was raised in both mind and body in those mountains. Even without a katana that master swordsman can cut through dimensions.
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1. It's different boyo. Ikki cannot be hax precoged but can still be skill precoged. Skill precog has nothing to do with seeing the future. It's Analytical Predictio. You just know what your opponent is going to do even though you don't see him. Example I know you're gonna respond to this post
2. >Assassin class skill. Yeah no. Drop it. Besides Ikki has his own version of "Can't see me now"
4. Well that's why resistances exist. Preventing someone from copying via hax is just making one immune to said hax. Preventing ikki from learning that, is literally preventing Ikki to theorize and try to do that. While im not gonna say ikki will do the 3 strikes technique, the mechanics are weird, but anything else is fair game.
Ugh, ok then, fair enough. Idm if we remove ikki from here and add him once his revisions are over if putting it on hold really makes everyone feel better.
You really don't want to get it do you?
>He's skilled enough to become a servant.
>Yes ok we will make him a servant and as a servant we will give them these bonuses he does not currently have.
It's a chain reaction. It's a bonus of the "achievement" he got. If he were 3x as skilled as he is now, but weren't chosen as a servant for whatever reason, he wouldn't benefit from those. It's a bonus of the title he gained not his skill. He got the title via skill, but not the bonuses.
2. >Assassin class skill. Yeah no. Drop it. Besides Ikki has his own version of "Can't see me now"
4. Well that's why resistances exist. Preventing someone from copying via hax is just making one immune to said hax. Preventing ikki from learning that, is literally preventing Ikki to theorize and try to do that. While im not gonna say ikki will do the 3 strikes technique, the mechanics are weird, but anything else is fair game.
Ugh, ok then, fair enough. Idm if we remove ikki from here and add him once his revisions are over if putting it on hold really makes everyone feel better.
You really don't want to get it do you?
>He's skilled enough to become a servant.
>Yes ok we will make him a servant and as a servant we will give them these bonuses he does not currently have.
It's a chain reaction. It's a bonus of the "achievement" he got. If he were 3x as skilled as he is now, but weren't chosen as a servant for whatever reason, he wouldn't benefit from those. It's a bonus of the title he gained not his skill. He got the title via skill, but not the bonuses.
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1. There is skill based precog though in the form of Eye of the Mind which still doesn't work
2. You misread, Sasaki does not use the assassin class skill he uses his own ability he gained through skill called Vitrification
4. If even other master swordsmen like Yagyu and Musashi can't "theorize" on how his stuff works why would Ikki be able to comprehend it
As I said even if you don't want to give him the servant skills he doesn't need them
Also who's to say he didn't have the stuff before becoming a servant. There are living human beings in the nasuverse that have accumulated enough mystery to gain servant resistances and immunities without becoming a servant
2. You misread, Sasaki does not use the assassin class skill he uses his own ability he gained through skill called Vitrification
4. If even other master swordsmen like Yagyu and Musashi can't "theorize" on how his stuff works why would Ikki be able to comprehend it
As I said even if you don't want to give him the servant skills he doesn't need them
Also who's to say he didn't have the stuff before becoming a servant. There are living human beings in the nasuverse that have accumulated enough mystery to gain servant resistances and immunities without becoming a servant
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^^John985 said:
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From what Zara said both ventrification and the honest thing seem like actual abilities.
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That is all due to their sheer skill with the blade btw no servant stuff involved
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No, it's says " "heart of clear water" that was acquired after reaching the pinnacle of arduous training " it's not a skill but a state of being that he got through training.Firephoenixearl said:
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Doesn't you guys derailling? i mean it's a list of the strongest swordsmen so the guys more more powerfull via his skills with a sword and by quoting Op : "all abilities unrelated to sword skills are not accounted for" so it's only sword skills, no need to debate to "can your characters can see him?" or things like that
from just that Juuzo oblirate Ikki, for the other dunno but keep the discussion on only sword skill, not other hax which doesn't come from sword skills.
from just that Juuzo oblirate Ikki, for the other dunno but keep the discussion on only sword skill, not other hax which doesn't come from sword skills.
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Depends. Ikki uses a form of invisibility himself, even without using stat amps (which are not on his profile yet).The Causality said:
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@causality
All of Sasaki's stuff comes from his skill as a swordsman though
All of Sasaki's stuff comes from his skill as a swordsman though
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I mainly talked about the "can he see him" thingsPaul Frank said:
But from the quote above he oblirate Ikki too.
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Anyway for now as i said, idm if we boot Ikki outta the list till revisions are done. If people don't want me to use stuff that's not on the profiles then it's best to wait.
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Also again why is the operator even on the list they never fought with a sword once and none of their powers are related to sword skill
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Well they are responsable for every action of the warframes,Paul Frank said:
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I mean none of the warframes have any real skill feats though or powers coming from their skill
glad to see you came around to it being possession ovo
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Sion is still below Yasuo, why
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Well they know most sword styles and different stances, have stat amps based on pure skill so...Paul Frank said:
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Which stat amps do frames have based on skill
Fair point on the stances I guess I never really thought of them as skill although composite human might still know more sword styles than a frame
Fair point on the stances I guess I never really thought of them as skill although composite human might still know more sword styles than a frame
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...the stances...Paul Frank said:
Stances are chock full of stat amps, though, i could argue mods like fury, pressure point etc are just skill but eh.
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