Top 10 Strongest Non-Smurfs for every tier continued (again)

[Bobsican]

Time manip is kinda the exception to the smurf rule IIRC, but anything further may be arguable.

But yeah, we'd go with what's actually in the profile right now, and going by the description it's quite smurfy either way, the rules already make it clear that no matter how "irrelevant" it'd be in practice it'd still count to disqualify.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Time manip is kinda the exception to the smurf rule IIRC, but anything further may be arguable.

That makes zero sense seeing as time manipulation is considered 4-D by default

But yeah, we'd go with what's actually in the profile right now, and going by the description it's quite smurfy either way, the rules already make it clear that no matter how "irrelevant" it'd be in practice it'd still count to disqualify.

So lemme get this straight, an ability that is explicitly not 4-D (Summoning people from alternate realities) is considered smurf because reasons, but an ability that is explicitly 4-D (Resetting all of space-time on a universal scale) is not smurf because reasons

 

[Tllmbrg]

Lol what's the plan for the sub tiers of 11?
11-B has only 5 pages

At least 11-C and 11-A have enough pages to make a full list (Assuming all the non-SCPs are not smurfs), but sorting it out will be a pain
Also SCP probably gets a spot either way but 11-C has like 19 while 11-A has 7 pages, so lol

 

[Bobsican]

That makes zero sense seeing as time manipulation is considered 4-D by default

Hence why I've said it's an exception (IIRC anyways), change the standard if you disagree

So lemme get this straight, an ability that is explicitly not 4-D (Summoning people from alternate realities) is considered smurf because reasons, but an ability that is explicitly 4-D (Resetting all of space-time on a universal scale) is not smurf because reasons

Something like that would be smurf as well, yeah.
"Alternate realities" in itself would imply the other realities are comparable to the main one in the first place, and thus universes, so...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"Alternate realities" in itself would imply the other realities are comparable to the main one in the first place, and thus universes, so...

The Hunter's summoning is not affecting entire universes though

 

[Tatsumi504]

Might as well join the train, Nafta for an empty spot in 2-A until the real big dogs get profiles.
She might actually beat the saint seiya characters since chronos and zeus (only profiles i checked) didn't resist Fate Manipulation.

 

[Bobsican]

You don't need to affect "entire" universes to have a tier 2 ability, merely reaching another one is indeed smurf.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You don't need to affect "entire" universes to have a tier 2 ability, merely reaching another one is indeed smurf.

That doesnt make any sense though, you dont need to be 4-D to do that

 

[Bobsican]

Again, check the rules cited in the OP, those are the rules.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Then he rules need to be changed because the glaring discrepancy of the hunter being considered smurf but not Flowey shows a huge flaw in what is considered smurf hax in this bracket

 

[DaReaperMan]

BTW why is Test #3 8-A? It was agreed that Crowfather(and many others) kick his shit in Here

 

[Mycroft_er]

Characters from Lord of the Mysteries for empty spot in 9-C/10-A

 

[Psychomaster35]

any specific spots?

I suppose anywhere against opponents without infinite speed should do.

Speaking of infinite, maybe I can suggest Godcat for 5th High 3-A knowing that she gets infinitely blitzed by the legendary Pokémon (especially since High 3-A feels limited). As she made all of her creations, she basically has Akron’s passive Black Hole Creation as well as his thought-based Soul Manipulation, Power Nullification, and Power Absorption.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Jerga should be removed from 5A and replaced with high 6B 4th place.

 

[DaReaperMan]

BTW why is Test #3 8-A? It was agreed that Crowfather(and many others) kick his shit in Here

Bump

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Huh so Sora is #1 in 2-B and #5 in 2-A? Might as well bring up that Sora didn't do so well against Shulk in this thread (which funnily enough was made by Bob).

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, that thread is a bit outdated, and I didn't feel like arguing further at the time, feel free to revive the debate

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Eh, that thread is a bit outdated, and I didn't feel like arguing further at the time, feel free to revive the debate

How so? No CRTs for Sora have been made since (I've checked) and ya did try given even you concluded it was a mismatch.

 

[Bobsican]

There was this since then IIRC (notably 27 layers to most abilities, and 1 resistance negation layer, that much was accepted on that area)

And I'm unsure on Shulk getting out of nowhere the capability to negate High-Godly type 8 immortality, NLFs and all as I've said, you did say you'd call a staff member to confirm but nothing came from that.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

There was this since then IIRC (notably 27 layers to most abilities, and 1 resistance negation layer, that much was accepted on that area)

Read the dates Bob, that was closed in August while the SvS thread was debated after a necro in September and was something you brought up in that thread.

And I'm unsure on Shulk getting out of nowhere the capability to negate High-Godly type 8 immortality, NLFs and all as I've said, you did say you'd call a staff member to confirm but nothing came from that.

Read his profile, Bob. Like the "more abilities through the use of Alvis" who has said abilities. Bob ya claim NLF for his RE which is something that has dozen of scans of evidence explaining how it works. The staff member didn't show because they thought the match was resolved as a miss match, I can call them here if you want me to.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, my bad.

While Reactive Evolution is often always active, its effects may not always activate to benefit the user, and this needs to be evaluated through feats & scaling. Likewise, the latter determines the complexity and scale of the powers, resistances and statistics gained.

RE is a thing and all, but it doesn't apply to gain any ability whatsoever for the sake of NLFs, in fact let's see what it has displayed here in the first place.

overcome weaknesses as shown with Shulk damaging Metal Face with the Monado I despite the latter having Homs blood

Invulnerability negation (kind of, otherwise arguably something less significant for the purposes here)

grow in power as shown by The Monado becoming much more powerful when pushed

AP amplification, not relevant for abilities

enhance resistances and develop resistances as shown with The Monado overcoming the effects of the Apocrypha which previously left it in a powerless state and later Shulk even comments that The Monado does not feel any different even when approaching the Apocrypha Generator

Resistance to Power Null, also quite unrelated to what's argued here

and also The Monado can gain new abilities when needed as shown with it responding to Shulk's desires which allowed him to obtain Monado Shield, Monado Speed and Monado Purge

Raise Durability, Speed and uh... power null to precog, also quite unrelated to what's argued here

Shulk was also shown to be capable of actively triggering The Monado to obtain new abilities through his will and desire as shown through him obtaining Monado Purge and The Monado II once it had the shackles broken alongside Zanza stating that created the Monado's ability to see into the future in order to fight Meyneth

Enhanced precog and I guess stat amp, still quite unrelated to what's argued here

So what we get from here? This RE is pretty eh and doesn't grant abilities remotely related to what's being argued here, generally being quite minor for the most part in the first place.

 

[YungManzi]

Jerga should be removed from 5A and replaced with high 6B 4th place.

Are you saying he’s above Alte but not Ehit? (tsuki ga michibiku vs Afrifureta is a very complicated topic and Arifureta is listed above Tsuki ga right now pretty much just because the profiles are gonna get updated eventually and then they’re going to be put up against arifureta again.)

 

[JoshSSJGod]

RE is a thing and all, but it doesn't apply to gain any ability whatsoever for the sake of NLFs, in fact let's see what it has displayed here in the first place.

That is what the elaboration is for.

Invulnerability negation (kind of, otherwise arguably something less significant for the purposes here)


AP amplification, not relevant for abilities


Resistance to Power Null, also quite unrelated to what's argued here


Raise Durability, Speed and uh... power null to precog, also quite unrelated to what's argued here



Enhanced precog and I guess stat amp, still quite unrelated to what's argued here

So what we get from here? This RE is pretty eh and doesn't grant abilities remotely related to what's being argued here, generally being quite minor for the most part in the first place.

Ain't that a strawman and a half. You know those are examples given to elaborate on stuff The Monado can do as per the Reactive Evolution's page. Its done in the same manner as DMC's and Castlevania's own RE. It doesn't matter regardless given how in the thread the RE was not the defining point since Alvis (Shulk's sword) already has said abilities and the defining fact that the thread ended on Shulk being able to just incap Sora on his own (something you even agreed with as you liked the argument and were ready to call it a mismatch).

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, I was just a bit lazy at the time and gave up, if anything I retract from what I said on that regard.

It's a NLF as said before, I'll have to make a CRT on how we treat RE in general at this pace if that point keeps going, either way, if Shulk's hax is baseline then the resistance negation doesn't matter as Sora also has a ResNeg layer, let alone how his resistances have 27 layers to begin with.

At best both have wincons and beyond that it's arguable for either side, rather than it being too one-sided.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I am so tempted to throw Sora at one of these lol

 

[Bobsican]

Warhammer

 

[DaReaperMan]

Tabletops>Whatever verse you like in every way sans power for some

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Tabletops>Whatever verse you like in every way sans power for some

Chinese:

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Eh, I was just a bit lazy at the time and gave up, if anything I retract from what I said on that regard.

So you're telling me that ya a thread that you were going be a lazy on?

It's a NLF as said before, I'll have to make a CRT on how we treat RE in general at this pace if that point keeps going, either way, if Shulk's hax is baseline then the resistance negation doesn't matter as Sora also has a ResNeg layer, let alone how his resistances have 27 layers to begin with.

Aight so I've called the staff member (who also funnily enough helped me with the RE), they'll be a bit but they already don't that NLF claim. You also brought that up in the thread, Bob.

At best both have wincons and beyond that it's arguable for either side, rather than it being too one-sided.

Alright then, let's go continue that thread then.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Tabletops>Whatever verse you like in every way sans power for some

Alllright, time to pull out the good old Azathoth
In all seriousness though I'd never mess with those guys if I could avoid it lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alllright, time to pull out the good old Azathoth
In all seriousness though I'd never mess with those guys if I could avoid it lol

Generally for 8-As outside of Grimgor you're only really dealing with a lot of skill so they're beatable, but tier 6/mages onwards just don't bother, they're either more haxed then **** or more skilled then shit. Sometimes both.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican Bob you do realize the entire point of RE is that the character adapts to whatever situation they come across at a supernatural level of efficiency. Saying it's a NLF for Shulk to gain abilities with his RE when that's literally what the monado lets him do is asinine, at best you'd need to have evidence Sora can undo his evolution or just defeat shulk before he adapts far too quickly.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Bobsican Bob you do realize the entire point of RE is that the character adapts to whatever situation they come across at a supernatural level of efficiency. Saying it's a NLF for Shulk to gain abilities with his RE when that's literally what the monado lets him do is asinine, at best you'd need to have evidence Sora can undo his evolution or just defeat shulk before he adapts far too quickly.

Yeah, its like saying 682 can't adapt to....

WTF hasn't the Lizard adapted to in-Canon yet?

 

[ThanatosX]

@Bobsican Bob you do realize the entire point of RE is that the character adapts to whatever situation they come across at a supernatural level of efficiency. Saying it's a NLF for Shulk to gain abilities with his RE when that's literally what the monado lets him do is asinine, at best you'd need to have evidence Sora can undo his evolution or just defeat shulk before he adapts far too quickly.

Than I think there are huge double standards in the way it's used, because for most characters RE doesn't make them gain resistences or abilities that they have never shown to be able to adapt to. And it is NLF to say that, for example, he will be able to gain layered resistence to something when he never shown to be able to resist that ability to that level, or gain a hax that he was never shown to use.
The multiple debates with Garou are an example of that.

 

[Bobsican]

682 is a bad example as he has adapted to basically virtually anything you can think of anyways, lol.

Anyways, I've made a thread on this matter

 

[Theglassman12]

@ThanatosX and is shulk "all of those characters with vague explanation on RE?" Because he literally has onscreen evidence of getting new abilities on the fly in the middle of fights? Besides nothing about my comment in RE when it came to shulk was remotely talking about him adapting by gaining new resistances on the fly, it's specifically him getting new abilities on the fly to adapt to the situation which he has showings of. If Sora doesn't have anyway to combat this then he's screwed in the long run.

 

[Bobsican]

"New abilities on the fly"
I'm sure Shulk very sporadically gets new powers of that kind in the first place, and even so the ones obtained that way are quite eh and unrelated to what's argued as said before.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Are you saying he’s above Alte but not Ehit? (tsuki ga michibiku vs Afrifureta is a very complicated topic and Arifureta is listed above Tsuki ga right now pretty much just because the profiles are gonna get updated eventually and then they’re going to be put up against arifureta again.)

Dude I said 4th Place

 

[Theglassman12]

For a reactive evolution that gives him an ehh level abilities he sure as hell slapped Sora in that thread, idk that sounds more like a problem for Sora than it is for Shulk if he still lost in the end.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

That thread didn't conclude, it died before people could really vote, so Sora didn't really lose that thread. The opposing side even admitted that it's a mismatch, and then the thread just died.