Sora Vs Shulk

[Bobsican]

Both at 2-A, speed equalized

Sora

Shulk

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Does shulk have the ability to stop his heart from getting destroyed? Like CM? If not sora takes this

 

[Bobsican]

Nothing from what I'm seeing, however, it seems Alvis (aka, his Monado), can negate up to High-Godly Regen, but it's not explained on the page.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Blah blah blah, Xenoblade under revisions, blah blah blah. Ya'll know the drill by now. Its been like this for awhile, wait till the revisions happen then it'll be fine to do this.
Also

it seems Alvis (aka, his Monado), can negate up to High-Godly Regen, but it's not explained on the page.

Its there but its grouped up with other abilities since there a lot of cross scaling abilities in Xenoblade.

 

[Zencha9]

i guess this can now go on?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I assume so, is high-godly negation applied? If no, then Sora takes this

 

[XXKINGXX69]

What can Sora do to monado purge paralysing him or Shulk dodging every hit with precognition?

 

[Bobsican]

...Sora resists paralysis.
Precog can be an issue, although that depends on how good his skill on dodging is TBH, Sora has plenty of homing attacks that would just automatically change direction, teleportation stuff, and of course a time stop that ignores barriers.

I probably should ask justifications for the Stamina ratings, no scans are provided, and the Limitless part in particular seems sus as neither page really explains it respectively.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

...Sora resists paralysis.
Precog can be an issue, although that depends on how good his skill on dodging is TBH, Sora has plenty of homing attacks that would just automatically change direction, teleportation stuff, and of course a time stop that ignores barriers.

I probably should ask justifications for the Stamina ratings, no scans are provided, and the Limitless part in particular seems sus as neither page really explains it respectively.

Can you show me the type of paralysis he resists?

How strong are these homing attacks? And Shulk has type 4 acausality, he resists time stop

 

[Bobsican]

This, please be more explicit on Shulk's if you'll argue further semantics on that

I'll let you judge TBH, I probably should also mention that it's currently accepted that opponents that lack notable aerial mobility options can't usually escape Sora's combos out of mere skill, and Type 4 acausality doesn't inherently covers time stop AFAIK.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

This, please be more explicit on Shulk's if you'll argue further semantics on that

I'll let you judge TBH, I probably should also mention that it's currently accepted that opponents that lack notable aerial mobility options can't usually escape Sora's combos out of mere skill, and Type 4 acausality doesn't inherently covers time stop AFAIK.

Shulk's Type 4 does cover time stop, since its from existing outside of regular flow of time. His passive time stop also technically counts as a resistance to it, and in that scan, he used it in a place beyond time

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And I guess Sora's mobility is an issue for Shulk, but since he's a JRPG character with a lot of abilities, what do you think will he do in this fight?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, what's the scaling chain for Sora? how high is he into 2-A?

 

[Zencha9]

also what key are we using for shulk

 

[Bobsican]

Shulk's Type 4 does cover time stop, since its from existing outside of regular flow of time. His passive time stop also technically counts as a resistance to it, and in that scan, he used it in a place beyond time

Sora severely upscales from a time stop that can affect beings native to a timeless place, his time stop is also at least of 27 layers in potency (Even if recent that much was accepted on that regard, I have yet to update the pages and I'm on exams week at school right now)

And I guess Sora's mobility is an issue for Shulk, but since he's a JRPG character with a lot of abilities, what do you think will he do in this fight?

Sora's mainly a swordfighter technically, although he balances between that and magic, so probably just a mix between sword clashing and range attacking until there's an opening and/or Sora eventually discovers out Shulk's stuff, although that's just for the start, after a while he can just kinda do about everything out of the mere potential arsenal with Formchanges, which he constantly switches between as desired.

I can still say some notable abilities, most obvious one here is probably flight, and Sora is hard to combo himself as Aerial Recovery prevents him from being easily punished further. Sora can also constantly teleport, and for anything else I'd recommend to check this.

Also, what's the scaling chain for Sora? how high is he into 2-A?

Unquantificably above baseline, even higher with Formchanges.
Beyond that, uh... Sora could keep up with Xehanort, whose power was beyond the other 12 guardians of light after obtaining true KH, some of which were already relevant help for Sora a while ago to keep up with the other Real Organization XIII members. Formchanges are also regarded as above Drive Forms.

also what key are we using for shulk

Per SBA whatever's the strongest.

 

[Zencha9]

strongest

Uh oh.

 

[Bobsican]

We can change keys if needed.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Uh oh.

Alvis intensifies

Anywho I should probably go over stuff related to what Shulk has now (spoilers, it makes this a stomp in his favour) so let's start with a few of them.

- Fate Manipulation: Binds even Acausals, makes it so nothing can happen to Shulk that would prevent him from fulfilling Alvis' wish (essentially Sora's fatehax but better). Sora at best has a limited type 4 acausality with no resistance to fate hax by himself which makes it also he affected by this.

- Passive Reactive Evolution: Easiest way to describe this is basically Sparda Heritage Reactive Evolution but Shulk can also do it at will to pull abilities out of his ass as seen here.

- Acausality and resistances: Makes it so Shulk can just ignore Sora's own fate hax and incap him through abilities such as Resistance Negation + Sleep Manip/Paralysis/Mind Hax without having to deal with the immortality and regen (though he can through Alvis and the Reactive Evolution).

- Deconstruction: Given the immortality negation that Shulk has access to via his Reactive Evolution and Alvis, this layered Deconstruction on hit would mean that any hit Shulk lands on Sora would mean Gg.

With only these 4 abilities, Shulk has a solid wincon over Sora while Sora has very limited options due to getting uno reversed fate haxed with all this being stuff that Shulk is capable of by himself which means things only become more bleak once Alvis comes into the picture who Sora can't even interact with and can just make it so Shulk wins via fate haxing the result in his favour.

I'll be putting my vote on Shulk.

 

[Bobsican]

Fate manip is valid, I suppose.

RE is generally limited to what it has actually displayed for the sake of NLFs, so it can't make entirely new P&As here nor expand them like that, I'm afraid.

I guess I'll have to ask how good those abilities are in practice as Sora doesn't really resists them then. Shulk's stuff caps at negating up to Low-Godly as far as the profile says, for here High-Godly negation would be required, and per NLFs RE just won't be enought as said above.

What'd be required to interact with Alvis, BTW?

 

[JoshSSJGod]

RE is generally limited to what it has actually displayed for the sake of NLFs, so it can't make entirely new P&As here, I'm afraid.

It wouldn't be NLF, for it to be it would something infinitely higher in potency (like claiming Shulk can use it to get 6-D hax)
Plus I literally showed you a scan of Shulk pulling a new power out of his ass so claiming the standard of it being limited wouldn't be valid since he has shown otherwise with the literal dozen scans on his profile.

I guess I'll have to ask how good those abilities are in practice as Sora doesn't really resists them then. Shulk's stuff caps at negating up to Low-Godly as far as the profile says, for here High-Godly negation would be required, and per NLFs RE just won't be enought as said above.

In terms of what? Potency? Duration? If that's what you mean then its gg when applied (tho Shulk also has more lethal options such as Death Manip + Resistance Negation) which can either be forced into happening via Alvis' fate hax or through the battle lasting long enough.
I'm surprised ya didn't read Alvis' profile given he is standard equipment for Shulk. Alvis has High Godly Negation on his profile as do other Aegis Blades (they are also basically Monados so ya know). Though funnily enough XB3 has even more High Godly negation so expect Noah to be a decent haxlord.

What'd be required to interact with Alvis, BTW?

Hella big range (beyond 2-A range since you also need Memory Space which exists beyond it) with Sora's range with attacks according to his profile maxing out at planetary, layered Conceptual NPI which is constantly increasing thanks to how Ether Concentration works. and some Nonexistent Physiology interation.

 

[Bobsican]

Not really, in fact that's why powers like Power Mimicry are generally of little use in matches.

As in how they're applied, although those details you've brought up also are nice to take note of.
Regen negation isn't elaborated on, if it's related to what I can find on Pyra's page then I doubt it'd be effective here when the thing Sora's recovering from isn't just information, but also a type 1 concept, now I know Shulk has type 1 CM, but we can't really extrapolate without feats (see above).


There was a planned CRT to add that kind of stuff on Sora's page, the match could be put on hiatus as otherwise the result may require being redone then.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Not really, in fact that's why powers like Power Mimicry are generally of little use in matches.

Looks at Garou, Castlevania characters, Amazo, SMT characters, Protoge, Kars and the hundreds of examples
Yeah that's just plain wrong and I can even get a staff to tell ya why. Given the actual showings proving otherwise, a simple "not really" is not going to be enough without bringing a massive reason as to why.

Regen negation isn't elaborated on, if it's related to what I can find on Pyra's page then I doubt it'd be effective here when the thing Sora's recovering from isn't just information, but also a type 1 concept, now I know Shulk has type 1 CM, but we can't really extrapolate without feats (see above).

Regen negation isn't elaborated on

"Pneuma's power is stated to be the Conduit's power and thus characters who can use the Conduit should be able to use her abilities" its right under it Bob. Its the same ability from Pneuma.
He'd still be unable to regenerate Bob, even if you'd want to argue that he'd still be alive he would have no way of regenning which would count as an incap.
You can say that for literally any CM, wouldn't really matter regardless as Shulk would be capable of interacting with concepts (thanks XB3).

There was a planned CRT to add that kind of stuff on Sora's page, the match could be put on hiatus as otherwise the result may require being redone then.

Well aight then but why didja not mention that before like how I did for Xenoblade?

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I'd like to hear an staff for confirmation on that regard, while RE can make powers and all of that, extending it to anything whatsoever is easily NLFish, and may as well be yet another outdated standard yet to revise to some degree.

Uh... characters that inherit the powers of a good amount of other characters like that generally should have them listed as accepted here, but in any case, interacting with concepts doesn't translate to negating their regeneration from existence.

Oh, because I wanted to see if the new potential stuff would be of note here, but given that it'd be... yeah.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

TBH I'd like to hear an staff for confirmation on that regard, while RE can make powers and all of that, extending it to anything whatsoever is easily NLFish, and may as well be yet another outdated standard yet to revise to some degree.

Yeah sure I can get 'em, It'll take a bit tho since they are busy rn. Regardless the power in question is something the verse has shown off before.

Uh... characters that inherit the powers of a good amount of other characters like that generally should have them listed as accepted here, but in any case, interacting with concepts doesn't translate to negating their regeneration from existence.

Bob, that thread is for elaborating on what is given when characters have the statement "all of the verse's powers" in their power and abilities. That is literally what is being done there as its what he gets from it.
Also Bob, what? That has nothing to do with my point there. You took the previous point of the regen negation making it so Sora can't regen back and somehow got that. Despite the fact that they were 2 different points.

Oh, because I wanted to see if the new potential stuff would be of note here, but given that it'd be... yeah.

That it'd be...?

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I understand.

Uh... not exactly, but that's besides the point.
Well, can you reword that point from your previous post then? Perhaps I gave priority to a part of it that wasn't intended to be taken like that.

Well, most obvious stuff includes proper 2-A range and (Resistance and hax) layers being actual resistance negation layers.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Uh... not exactly, but that's besides the point.
Well, can you reword that point from your previous post then? Perhaps I gave priority to a part of it that wasn't intended to be taken like that.

It was 2 separate points ya mixed together.
First one was that the Regen Negation would as the name implies negate Sora's regen as he doesn't have a resistance for it which would put Sora out of the fight.
Second point was in relation to when you were talking about Shulk's CM, I was saying how it didn't really matter since Shulk is capable of interacting with concepts.

Well, most obvious stuff includes proper 2-A range and (Resistance and hax) layers being actual resistance negation layers.

I schnee, though going off this, it doesn't really seem to change much does it? Especially when Alvis could just fate hax Shulk to win.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, regen negation doesn't inherently covers any level, as much as someone preventing Low level regen is unable to stop the target from recovering from being erased from existence, and semantics also matter as said before.
Oh, fair, I suppose, although "interacting with concepts" here is rather vague, do you mean like NPI, or...?

TBH yeah, lol
Do you have any suggestion for another Shulk key to use here, or it's a mismatch?

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Well, regen negation doesn't inherently covers any level, as much as someone preventing Low level regen is unable to stop the target from recovering from being erased from existence.

Well yes but when the negation level is High Godly (thanks Alvis and RE) it would.

Oh, fair, I suppose, although "interacting with concepts" here is rather vague, do you mean like NPI, or...?

Essentially, yes. Xb3 is particular deals with concepts a ton (expect the main villain to be an uber haxlord, the sandbox for him already has roughly 100 abilities).

TBH yeah, lol
Do you have any suggestion for another Shulk key to use here, or it's a mismatch?

That's the thing about Shulk now, most of his big boi stuff comes from his first key. So even Low 7-C Shulk would pull his weight through Fate Hax protecting him and RE giving him something to incap Sora like Sleep Manip.
And even then, the earlier tiers from Shulk have their own unique stuff such as them being able to bring this guy into the fray which just wraps back around to the fate hax shenanigans. Shulk has become a tough character to make a MU for.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

- Fate Manipulation: Binds even Acausals, makes it so nothing can happen to Shulk that would prevent him from fulfilling Alvis' wish (essentially Sora's fatehax but better). Sora at best has a limited type 4 acausality with no resistance to fate hax by himself which makes it also he affected by this.

Why? We just know he can control the passage of fate, but how he does it or what it does is unknown

 

[Bobsican]

Probably should also mention that per SBA everyone's in character, so rather unlikely things may not be plausible to consider.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Probably should also mention that per SBA everyone's in character, so rather unlikely things may not be plausible to consider.

I'm aware, I've been making my arguments with that in mind.

Though should I get someone to close this since this is a mismatch.