Toei - DBZ Broly Upgrade

[CryoTheMayo]

infinite speed too right? Thats the only thing that makes sense

I'm not familiar with how we currently treat cross-movie scaling but Metal Cooler should be Infinite Speed via IT feats and that's via scaling above Cell Saga SS1 Goku and Vegeta. LSS Broly should scale far above Metal Cooler so it'd make sense for him to also be Infinite Speed.

Granted, I don't think IS Metal Cooler is currently accepted but...it is a lot more consistent if Broly is Infinite Speed. Hell, Metal Cooler even scales above Restricted SS1 Broly who destroyed South Galaxy so...yeah it all wraps around to making sense.

LSS Broly (Destroying infinite universe) >>>> Metal Cooler > Restricted SS1 Broly > South Galaxy (Destroying infinite galaxies) = Instant Transmission (Infinite Speed)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

And I'm saying in the context of the Movie the galaxy shown in the beginning was meant to be a representation of the south galaxy

Doesn't change anything but that is what is was supposed to be

Alright since you refuse to listen I’ll explain what a NSEW galaxy is and show proof that galaxy was not a representation of 1/4 of the universe so the daizenshuu states that a NSEW galaxy so when its referring to a cardinal direction and calls it a galaxy is merely a denomination used by the gods to refer to a section of the universe even in the chonzenshuu that Hermes translated

In the beginning of a movie we see a galaxy being destroyed and it’s stated that the southern galaxy would be destroyed and the southern galaxy is shown still existing and King Kai directs goku there and even Paragus states that he’s wreaking havoc on the southern galaxy and refers to it as an area Galaxy in relation to a cardinal direction is referring to a quadrant/section/area of the universe and there is 4 of them each being filled with countless galaxies 1/4 of the universe wasn’t destroyed and if there was only 4 galaxies then none of this movie would make sense I have no idea where your getting this argument from and your logic is backed up from nothing this also explains why there’s only a couple planets and stars left the director of the movie even claiming that the galaxy we‘re shown being destroyed at the start of the movie being one of countless galaxies

Please stop arguing from ignorance with this 4 galaxies argument there’s clearly way more galaxies than that and if there was only 4 galaxies the Universe would be 3-B nothing here suggests that there’s only 4 galaxies just 4 quadrants with countless galaxies in it the context of the movie never implies there’s only 4 galaxies and says otherwise too

I'm not familiar with how we currently treat cross-movie scaling but Metal Cooler should be Infinite Speed via IT feats and that's via scaling above Cell Saga SS1 Goku and Vegeta. LSS Broly should scale far above Metal Cooler so it'd make sense for him to also be Infinite Speed.

Granted, I don't think IS Metal Cooler is currently accepted but...it is a lot more consistent if Broly is Infinite Speed. Hell, Metal Cooler even scales above Restricted SS1 Broly who destroyed South Galaxy so...yeah it all wraps around to making sense.

LSS Broly (Destroying infinite universe) >>>> Metal Cooler > Restricted SS1 Broly > South Galaxy (Destroying infinite galaxies) = Instant Transmission (Infinite Speed)

Should be sadly we will probably have to wait for Deagon

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm not familiar with how we currently treat cross-movie scaling but Metal Cooler should be Infinite Speed via IT feats and that's via scaling above Cell Saga SS1 Goku and Vegeta. LSS Broly should scale far above Metal Cooler so it'd make sense for him to also be Infinite Speed.

Granted, I don't think IS Metal Cooler is currently accepted but...it is a lot more consistent if Broly is Infinite Speed. Hell, Metal Cooler even scales above Restricted SS1 Broly who destroyed South Galaxy so...yeah it all wraps around to making sense.

LSS Broly (Destroying infinite universe) >>>> Metal Cooler > Restricted SS1 Broly > South Galaxy (Destroying infinite galaxies) = Instant Transmission (Infinite Speed)

bro people keep saying I.T isnt treated as infinite speed and has a time frame, and im failing to understand why that is the case. But regardless, cooler would scale anyway even if we disregarded the IT feats for whatever reason.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

bro people keep saying I.T isnt treated as infinite speed and has a time frame, and im failing to understand why that is the case. But regardless, cooler would scale anyway even if we disregarded the IT feats for whatever reason.

I would guess it's because it takes a split second of focus to activate, except we see Metal Cooler grabbing Goku mid-transmission, and the actual transmission is...instant.

But yeah that gets dangerously close to a derail, if Cooler gets infinite speed via scaling to this anyways I guess it wouldn't matter regardless. The point I'm just trying to make is that Metal Cooler's feat is already arguably infinite speed and he would scale above Restricted SS1 Broly who can destroy infinite galaxies and then of course LSS Broly who is far above either of them repeatedly stated to be capable of destroying the universe itself.

To me all of the Metal Cooler and Broly scaling compliments extremely well due to both taking place with similar timeframes and both having arguable Infinite Speed feats. It feels more consistent as a result.

 

[TiltedFN]

yeah thats true, have any staff agreed yet? And if so, how many more do we need

 

[CryoTheMayo]

yeah thats true, have any staff agreed yet? And if so, how many more do we need

It seems the only staff that has participated so far is KLOL but I don't think he explicitly agreed or disagreed, he seemed to just be asking for more evidence and said some things that other posters found contradictory or incorrect.

Personally I can already smell the denial and thread locking coming, unfortunately.

 

[SlendVeny]

I would guess it's because it takes a split second of focus to activate, except we see Metal Cooler grabbing Goku mid-transmission, and the actual transmission is...instant.

The fight seems to just be them teleporting behind each other a bunch. I mean, maybe the leg grab counts, but it's treated weird in the movie.

 

[TiltedFN]

The fight seems to just be them teleporting behind each other a bunch. I mean, maybe the leg grab counts, but it's treated weird in the movie.

but they literally fight mid instant transmission, like its blatantly shown they are fighting before they reappear

 

[SlendVeny]

but they literally fight mid instant transmission, like its blatantly shown they are fighting before they reappear

Maybe, but they only show that speed specifically while using Instant Transmission.

 

[TiltedFN]

Maybe, but they only show that speed specifically while using Instant Transmission.

it just means they can have infinite speed perception and combat speed

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The fight seems to just be them teleporting behind each other a bunch. I mean, maybe the leg grab counts, but it's treated weird in the movie.

I specifically timestamped it so you would hear Metal Cooler announce he is using IT, complete with an audio cue that is then spammed as they clash at eachother. The entire point of the scene is Goku and Metal Cooler using Instant Transmission to one-up eachother after the reveal that he can use it. They even visualise it for the audience by depicting them in a red and blue space to make it clear it isn't normal reality.

Goku uses IT to escape Supernova -> Cooler comments on the speed -> Goku states it's Instant Transmission -> Cooler reveals he knows it as well -> Goku is shocked and Cooler instantly smashes him in the face with IT -> Goku comments it 'changes things' -> The two begin to clash while constantly teleporting -> Conclusion is Cooler proving superiority by grabbing Goku mid-IT -> Goku realises his inferiority and goes Super Saiyan, ending the Instant Transmission competition

There is no point here where it's contradicted. It is a demonstration of Instant Transmission and Metal Cooler being superior to Goku's Instant Transmission. Full stop.

-

And while I am going to stop posting about it here, I'm going to iterate for staff that the entire point of us bringing this up is because Broly would scale above it and make Infinite Speed Broly more consistent. If we talk about it more it will be in general discussion but I just feel this point needed to be made for the Broly arguments.

 

[KLOL506]

Where in any of these does it say what you’re asking for?

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story. Further, the hyperbolic nature of the phrase must be taken into consideration, where characters are prone to describing someone's power as infinite in a context where it is so great as to be insurmountable from their perspective, but not truly infinite in a manner relevant to their tier. If proven, however, statements of infinite strength would qualify for High 3-A or higher if evidence regarding a higher degree of infinity above baseline is established.

LITERALLY IN THE TIERING SYSTEM FAQ.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Something that could help or hurt IS Broly is this: Does Goku ever use Instant Transmission in the movie? If so, how is it used? The context of that could change things considerably.

If it turns out Goku never used IT in the movie then that could imply Goku believed it would be pointless, and we see Metal Cooler renders it pointless in his movie and Broly scales above that but if he does use it then...the context could debunk IS Broly.

 

[StekFence]

Goku uses it at the start, when he’s looking for broly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Goku uses it at the start, when he’s looking for broly.

Alright, does it ever have a combat application in the movie? Skimming around a bit it sounds like Goku traced Broly's energy using IT but wasn't able to actually find him with it, just that it led back to New Vegeta.

 

[SlendVeny]

There is no point here where it's contradicted. It is a demonstration of Instant Transmission and Metal Cooler being superior to Goku's Instant Transmission. Full stop.

Metal Cooler only showcases that speed while using IT though

 

[SlendVeny]

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story.

Yeah, if every time a guy said "My power is maximum" he immediately got H3A, we'd all be H3A.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Metal Cooler only showcases that speed while using IT though

If you'd like to continue this we can discuss it in the DB general discussion thread, it would start to derail too much if we kept it up here I'm afraid.

Either way I took a look around a subbed version of the Broly movie and it does seem like the only usage of IT in the entire movie is just for traveling, Goku never seems to use it in battle despite the animators even putting him in an 'alternate' space, like in the Metal Cooler movie, when he uses it while tracking Broly.

So for one reason or another, Goku never even tries to use IT against Broly while fighting him. The only sort of scaling I can see with IT in the movie alone would be Goku having to use IT multiple times to track down Broly's location. Someone else might be able to make an argument using that, not me right now though.

 

[SlendVeny]

So for one reason or another, Goku never even tries to use IT against Broly while fighting him.

Well, he didn't really need to. Appearing behind him isn't gonna do anything when there's already another guy there

The only sort of scaling I can see with IT in the movie alone would be Goku having to use IT multiple times to track down Broly's location. Someone else might be able to make an argument using that, not me right now though.

That's a range issue, or an issue of Broly being hard to track due to his restraints.

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story. Further, the hyperbolic nature of the phrase must be taken into consideration, where characters are prone to describing someone's power as infinite in a context where it is so great as to be insurmountable from their perspective, but not truly infinite in a manner relevant to their tier. If proven, however, statements of infinite strength would qualify for High 3-A or higher if evidence regarding a higher degree of infinity above baseline is established.

LITERALLY IN THE TIERING SYSTEM FAQ.

You asked for a statement that directly says he can destroy the universe in one blow bc apparently the tier is nitpicking, nothing in here shows what you said is necessary. “Because it needs "whole universe" stated verbatim to make it count. High 3-A be nitpicky like that. And you've got one scan for it.”

Then you said your interpretation is above mine bc blah blah blah, firstly, it just uses infinite stamina as an example, it doesn’t say anything about that being the standard assumption.Secondly, the shit you showed is under the assumption that the statement is by itself with nothing backing it up, as you can see, I heavily backed up my statements with multiple pieces of evidence. Like c’mon be fr rn

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Well, he didn't really need to. Appearing behind him isn't gonna do anything when there's already another guy there

That's a range issue, or an issue of Broly being hard to track due to his restraints.

Both points here are weak. The point of Instant Transmission in combat is getting in a critical attack or avoiding a dangerous attack and Goku was actively locating Broly's energy to warp to him, when he teleports he even states Broly was on the planet he appeared on but had already moved on. That's why Goku needed to IT multiple times, he was trying to track Broly down but was either too slow or Broly had already done all of this before Goku started trying to find him.

One feat would be Broly moving faster than Goku could teleport and the other is simply Goku struggling to trace Broly's energy across North Galaxy to New Vegeta, both could be used for arguing Broly's speed.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

I mean we don't really need and Infinite power statements if we have straight up confirmation of Broly destroying a Infinite amount of anything

Destroying an Infinite universe, even over, time has always been grounds for High 3-A

 

[KLOL506]

You asked for a statement that directly says he can destroy the universe in one blow bc apparently the tier is nitpicking, nothing in here shows what you said is necessary. “Because it needs "whole universe" stated verbatim to make it count. High 3-A be nitpicky like that. And you've got one scan for it.”

Then you said your interpretation is above mine bc blah blah blah, firstly, it just uses infinite stamina as an example, it doesn’t say anything about that being the standard assumption.Secondly, the shit you showed is under the assumption that the statement is by itself with nothing backing it up, as you can see, I heavily backed up my statements with multiple pieces of evidence. Like c’mon be fr rn

This was in response to the bottomless power statements, not the universe busting statements. You wanted to ask how it was relevant. I showed you.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I mean we don't really need and Infinite power statements if we have straight up confirmation of Broly destroying a Infinite amount of anything

Destroying an Infinite universe, even over, time has always been grounds for High 3-A

Right, this is what confuses me when considering denial of the upgrade. If I break this down in my head and put it here:

• 3-A is defined as destroying a finite space equivalent to the observable universe which is just a large collection of galaxies
• High 3-A? Just the observable universe but infinite, as in infinite galaxies
• Dragon Ball universe? A universe containing infinite galaxies
• A DB quadrant? A section of that infinite universe split up for better management by the Kais, still being infinite via basic logic
• What did Broly do? Destroy the South quadrant that contains infinite galaxies
• What is Broly stated to be capable of? Destroying the entire universe that is infinite.

Broly isn't immortal, he has to do all of this in a finite amount of time and we already know he destroyed South Quadrant in a short period of time. This is all with Paragus restraining his power massively. He would actively need High 3-A power and/or Infinite Speed to do what he has already done, let alone the numerous statements of him destroying the entire infinite universe.

I really just don't see how any of these statements or feats can even begin to physically work unless Broly at least has Infinite Speed.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Right, this is what confuses me when considering denial of the upgrade. If I break this down in my head and put it here:

• 3-A is defined as destroying a finite space equivalent to the observable universe which is just a large collection of galaxies
• High 3-A? Just the observable universe but infinite, as in infinite galaxies
• Dragon Ball universe? A universe containing infinite galaxies
• A DB quadrant? A section of that infinite universe split up for better management by the Kais, still being infinite via basic logic
• What did Broly do? Destroy the South quadrant that contains infinite galaxies
• What is Broly stated to be capable of? Destroying the entire universe that is infinite.

Broly isn't immortal, he has to do all of this in a finite amount of time and we already know he destroyed South Galaxy in a short period of time. This is all with Paragus restraining his power massively. He would actively need High 3-A power and/or Infinite Speed to do what he has already done, let alone the numerous statements of him destroying the entire infinite universe.

I really just don't see how any of these statements or feats can even begin to physically work unless Broly at least has Infinite Speed.

Also I would like to add on him threatening to destroy the Universe is already accepted and before it was accepted as infinite there was a calc and it taking one month was the accepted time frame

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

Also I would like to add on him threatening to destroy the Universe is already accepted and before it was accepted as infinite there was a calc and it taking one month was the accepted time frame

Hey Das Me!

 

[Tarang123]

Big disagree with this

The source material itself doesn't support this as it was still stated it would take some time to destroy the entire universe

So I don't believe we should upgrade him based on two statements which are quite frankly just flowery language

Not that I don't agree, but wouldn't it not matter if it took time considering the universe is High 3A?

 

[Tarang123]

Koyama a director of the film responds strongly to the destruction of the universe and he says that he cannot destroy it.



Could you tag someone to close this? I don't think this will lead anywhere.

Isn't he the same dude who said that DB has infinite hierarchies. His word should be taken with several bucketloads of salt

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

This was in response to the bottomless power statements, not the universe busting statements. You wanted to ask how it was relevant. I showed you.

I asked you for it bc you said your infinite stamina interpretation is above mine bc it’s the wiki standard assumption dawg

 

[Saintdhqhdy]

Isn't he the same dude who said that DB has infinite hierarchies. His word should be taken with several bucketloads of salt

He telling the truth, the wiki ain’t ready for that

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Isn't he the same dude who said that DB has infinite hierarchies. His word should be taken with several bucketloads of salt

He was never referring to DB when he said that. People took him out of context and wanked it. But yea Koyama is not reliable.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Isn't he the same dude who said that DB has infinite hierarchies. His word should be taken with several bucketloads of salt

False equivalence hes told people not to ask him about stuff that he’s not apart of but hes reliable for stuff he made like the Broly movie because he made it… simple as that

I don’t see why he can’t be trusted in a detail of what happens in a movie he literally directed it though he shouldn’t be trusted for things he didn’t direct

 

[Tarang123]

He was never referring to DB when he said that. People took him out of context and wanked it. But yea Koyama is not reliable.

He wasn't? Wasn't the question on the Afterlife?

 

[SlendVeny]

Both points here are weak. The point of Instant Transmission in combat is getting in a critical attack or avoiding a dangerous attack and Goku was actively locating Broly's energy to warp to him, when he teleports he even states Broly was on the planet he appeared on but had already moved on. That's why Goku needed to IT multiple times, he was trying to track Broly down but was either too slow or Broly had already done all of this before Goku started trying to find him.

One feat would be Broly moving faster than Goku could teleport and the other is simply Goku struggling to trace Broly's energy across North Galaxy to New Vegeta, both could be used for arguing Broly's speed.

Or he could just move faster than Goku disappears and re-appears.

 

[SlendVeny]

Also, why would Broly even scale to Meta-Cooler, the only canon Cooler movie in the Toei timeline is the first one.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Or he could just move faster than Goku disappears and re-appears.

...That would require him to be faster than teleportation which would make him Infinite Speed. Because the moment Goku is in transmission he instantly appears elsewhere. The only part of Instant Transmission that isn't instant is the part where Goku has to focus slightly on where he will teleport to, so the split second before he teleports.

In other words, Broly would have to be moving to where Goku is going to appear before Goku vanishes for it to be finite speed. If he moves to where Goku will appear when Goku is mid-transmission then that would be infinite speed.

Also, why would Broly even scale to Meta-Cooler, the only canon Cooler movie in the Toei timeline is the first one.

As far as I am aware the Toei movies are treated as parallel to the Toei anime in terms of powerscaling. Ghost Warrior Cooler is scaled above Restrained SS1 Broly due to how they both scale relative to Cell Saga SS1 Goku despite that comparison being from different movies/specials. As such scaling from an earlier movie should be taken into account for a later movie, especially when it's been stated that movie villains are meant to be stronger each movie.

In other words any feats by Metal Cooler would have to be surpassed by later movie villains, in this case Broly. If other people take issue with that then...whatever I guess? The bulk of this revision is about what happens in the Broly movie anyways. It just means slightly less reinforcement.

 

[SlendVeny]

...That would require him to be faster than teleportation which would make him Infinite Speed. Because the moment Goku is in transmission he instantly appears elsewhere. The only part of Instant Transmission that isn't instant is the part where Goku has to focus slightly on where he will teleport to, so the split second before he teleports.

In other words, Broly would have to be moving to where Goku is going to appear before Goku vanishes for it to be finite speed. If he moves to where Goku will appear when Goku is mid-transmission then that would be infinite speed.

He takes time to disappear, and then he takes time to move after he re-appears.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

He takes time to disappear, and then he takes time to move after he re-appears.

Right and Toei has shown Goku use IT to dodge an otherwise unavoidable Supernova by Metal Cooler and then also of course adapts scenes like Goku using Warp Kamehameha against Cell. Both opponents being much faster and stronger than he was.

In other words, the time it takes for him to move post-IT doesn't suddenly render it useless because it still moves him from A to B instantly for a critical attack or to dodge someone else's attack. Meaning it would have use cases against Broly unless Broly was too fast for it to be worth using.

Either way this little debate isn't too important to the grander revision.

 

[SlendVeny]

In other words, the time it takes for him to move post-IT doesn't suddenly render it useless because it still moves him from A to B instantly for a critical attack or to dodge someone else's attack. Meaning it would have use cases against Broly unless Broly was too fast for it to be worth using.

Or he just doesn't always use his best techniques. The Solar Flare, for instance, would be a good choice, why didn't he use that? Is Broly suddenly immune to it, just because Goku didn't use it?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Or he just doesn't always use his best techniques. The Solar Flare, for instance, would be a good choice, why didn't he use that? Is Broly suddenly immune to it, just because Goku didn't use it?

The Solar Flare isn't one of his signature techniques nor does it have the context of him using it several times in the movie just to never use it in the fight arbitrarily.