Toaru Majutsu no Index: Kakine has no soul CRT

[SpookyShadow]

Yeah, people are getting confused every damn time and time to do something with this.

I'll just copy and paste everything Accelerate said (thanks for help mate)

"Kakine has no soul. He's literally dead, everything that he is made of is just matter with his personality written into it like data. He is an inanimate object of information within matter that doesn't exist. Think of him like an AI in a video game. He isn't alive but he's following data within his coding that is similar to his real life counterpart. He's literally just a mass of organs in a freezer and is dead. Every DM copy is inanimate and just matter, therefore he lacks a soul."

So, I guess it's Immunity to Soul Manipulation

 

[Accelerate420]

Agreed because I wrote this.

 

[SpookyShadow]

<3

 

[Scrlk666777]

I'm on the fence about this so I will wait to see what others say.

 

[JooCipher]

makes sense

 

[Zensum]

I agree with OP

 

[Scrlk666777]

It looks like most agree so far but you will probably have to send Lazy and Don'ttalk a message to reply to this thread to get the changes accepted.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Can you send me their profiles?

 

[Malox1696]

i disagree, we know, esper powers are related to souls, if he lacked one he wouldn't be really able to use them, if u mean the individual clones created then yes they should not have a soul but the central piece must have one

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm quoting something Accelerater said about esper powers from another thread.

Read the definition of the ability on Espers. They replace reality passively with their own laws. So if you said 'You can't use this abiility" they'd shrug and still use it because they're literally deluding themselves into using them. You'd have to get them to recognize that their ability is useless on a subconscious level to turn off their Passive Law/Probability Hax, since it works in turn of "Always making the probability of producing their powers at 100%" in conjuncter. Not to mention, their abilites are biological at this point so unless he can turn off brain functions, he can't stop them from producing their abilities but their law hax is only limited to themselves as they produce the phenomena. It doesn't matter if he recognizes them at that point because they'd still believe they can do it, and so they can.

 

[Malox1696]

well it does not really relate tho this tho ?

 

[ElixirBlue]

I mean, a computer can think for itself without necessarily having a soul. If the power of espers comes from how something perceives things, then they don't necessarily need a soul for that.

That is how i'm interpreting with the information I have.

 

[Malox1696]

nope they need a soul, a pc can't have esper powers, and they are directly related to souls cause even cutting every and each part of the body didn't remove the esper power from the body

what he was trying to convey there was how esper powers works, generally they create a zone passively where they can chnage reality, and so they a minimal law manipulation

 

[DontTalkDT]

I agree that Kakine likely has no soul, given what we learned in doppelganger arc more than what is said in the op.

In my eyes the alternative would be that each of his dark matter beings has a seperate soul. One could call that unconventional soul manip resistance.


So I would add something like "Resistance, likely Immunity, to Soul Manipulation" with a corresponding explanation.

 

[Accelerate420]

nope they need a soul, a pc can't have esper powers, and they are directly related to souls cause even cutting every and each part of the body didn't remove the esper power from the body
what he was trying to convey there was how esper powers works, generally they create a zone passively where they can chnage reality, and so they a minimal law manipulation

>PC can't have esper powers

Wasn't the whole point of The Accel arc to use dead corpses Esper powers? So long as you can keep the brain operating you can produce the powers through their personal reality. They're just limited. The Souls for the experiment, if you wanna go there, were only done so it'd raise the ability Level. There also is no 'central piece' to Kakine anymore. They are all Kakine Teitoku, there's no such thing as a center piece for them so that argument falls flat.

Also to state, if all of the Kakine bodies had a soul, Beetle 05 would not have been able to manifest whatsoever through the personality AIM stuff. Because it's still be Kakine, and the most it'd do is run it out of control. It works because Kakine's soul is gone and he's just an ability now.

Unless you want to argue Sample Shoggoth, Kazakiri and AIM BURST has a soul?

 

[Malox1696]

they had artificial souls , did u miss that ?

 

[Zensum]

Kakine effectively has no soul as far as post revival/beetle is concerned.

You can make an indeterminate guess that it could reside in that freezer where his organs stay but Post revival no longer needs that to exist.

 

[Accelerate420]

they had artificial souls , did u miss that ?

Only to reach Level 6. The Machines supplemented for everything else and allowed their brains to function, the souls evolved their abilities further.

 

[Schnee_One]

Seems fine

 

[DontTalkDT]

Also to state, if all of the Kakine bodies had a soul, Beetle 05 would not have been able to manifest whatsoever through the personality AIM stuff. Because it's still be Kakine, and the most it'd do is run it out of control. It works because Kakine's soul is gone and he's just an ability now.

Unless you want to argue Sample Shoggoth, Kazakiri and AIM BURST has a soul?

Beetle 05's soul could plausbily be a different soul then original Kakine's.

After all mind related matters and the identity of who is Kakine has nothing to do with the concept of soul that Kakine isn't even aware of. All his power mechanics would work the same soul or not.

Sample Shoggoth, Kazakiri and Aim Burst could reasonably have a soul as well, automatically granted to them the moment they became self-sentient living beings. Similar to how clones could have souls.

The best information we have on the issue is the doppelganger arc. They create a sentient, self-aware artificial being and we are told that it most likely has no soul. So that these kind of beings most likely have no soul is what I would remain on.

 

[Accelerate420]

We can argue whether he still has a soul or not, but Kakine's key isn't (Refrigerator) it's 'Post Revival'. The fridge thing is irrelevant and will be in most matches as the fighter would be going up against the DM body. Therefore the immunity to the soul still applies in this key.

 

[StrongClick]

I agree with the OP. Dark Matter creates replicas by building "everyhting that is Kakine Teitoku", it has nothing to do with hosting his soul with a new body since otherwise every single dark matter particle would arguably also hold a soul. It's why Byouri's mind was almost taken over, because the data inside DM didn't match hers.

 

[Malox1696]

Only to reach Level 6. The Machines supplemented for everything else and allowed their brains to function, the souls evolved their abilities further.

nope all 4 coffin had artificial souls, to use esper power u must have a soul does not matter where it is, so somewhere, be outside or inside the battle field, kekinay has a soul

With the use of Necromancy, rituals can be carried out on the bodies of the dead to allow them to "pass through the gates of Heave". These rituals involves putting back the wandering "residual memory" of the corpse and closing their "spiritual circuit", in order to put them to rest. To do this, the necromancer makes use of a magic circle to reactivate the corpse and sends a false soul (Õü¢ÒéèÒü«Ú¡ä Itsuwari no Tamashii?) into the body in order to carry out the process.[1]

 

[Malox1696]

The best information we have on the issue is the doppelganger arc. They create a sentient, self-aware artificial being and we are told that it most likely has no soul. So that these kind of beings most likely have no soul is what I would remain on.

actually doppel might actually just have fused back with her original she appears in her dream after all like she part of her , which makes much more sense, instead being her own soul she is just part of another

which fits even what happened to kekinay, he split and is still in the divided state

 

[DontTalkDT]

We can argue whether he still has a soul or not, but Kakine's key isn't (Refrigerator) it's 'Post Revival'. The fridge thing is irrelevant and will be in most matches as the fighter would be going up against the DM body. Therefore the immunity to the soul still applies in this key.

Bettle 05 definitely doesn't have Kakines original soul. But that doesn't mean the DM bodies, including Beetle 05, can't have souls. They are artificial lifeforms and, as said, the best we got on whether artificial lifeforms have souls is the most likely not from Doppelganger arc.

 

[Accelerate420]

They're more like inanimate objects just moving based on code written into them than they are what I'd consider 'artificial lifeforms' but they're less likely to contain souls. Kakine had literally left his organs now that he is capable of providing an infinite loop to be able to use his Personal Reality through Dark Matter, therefore he can continue to create himself through Dark Matter. Also if the Main body had a soul, Beetle 05 wouldn't have happened to begin with as there is no Central Kakine Teitoku anymore.

Further more, Kakine stated he was capable of creating Personal Realities. And if what Malox is implying is true, that would say that Kakine has Soul Creation/Manipulation through Dark Matter if PR come from the Soul (Which they don't.)

Also, drugs are needed to bring out many personal realities. How would drugs influence the soul?? It's dumb and makes no sense. While the Soul does influence Personal realities, Personal Realities are no dependant on the Soul.

In the end this argument is null because Kakine doesn't carry the Fridge into battle. His Post key is his DM bodies which he uses to move, and thus, lack a soul. You can argue that the organs still house his soul, but his DM bodies are clearly devoid of it. Otherwise Beetle 05's take over couldn't have happened without inteferance as it'd interfere with Kakine's original Will/Soul.

TL;DR: Kakine Teitoku is now just data and, even if the soul existed, it sure as hell isn't part of the DM bodies. Souls are lost when a person dies and only MG trickery and Occult stuff can recover them, even then MG's need prep or to completely recreate the Phase to accomplish bringing a Person fully back to life.

 

[Malox1696]

1 artificial soul exist , 2 we have dead people with souls , like Maya which don't even have any corporeal parts 3 bettle 5 would have still happened, he just split his soul like the experiment with the doppel, he is still in a divided state

 

[LazyHunter]

There's really no good evidence as to whether DM Kakine and Beetle 05 have souls or if they are just fragments of the original Kakine's consciousness given a physical vessel through Dark Matter and otherwise lack souls.

Kakine is not dead prior to NT6 since his organs and brain were kept alive by Dark Legacy. After that the organs get put in a freezer, and if they are preserved right they could be revived at a later date as shown with Noukan Kihara. We don't know what happened with his soul at this stage, since it hasn't been brought up nor has he interacted with a soul power. It could be gone, it could be confined to his original organs, it could be split into pieces for each DM entity like his mind was, we simply don't know. It doesn't help matters that we don't know what happened to his organs after the revived Kakine was turned into a ball by Othinus to forcefully produce Dark Matter and make Gungnir.

 

[Accelerate420]

1 artificial soul exist , 2 we have dead people with souls , like Maya which don't even have any corporeal parts 3 bettle 5 would have still happened, he just split his soul like the experiment with the doppel, he is still in a divided state

This is the biggest headcanon I've seen in a while in regards to Kekine..

 

[Malox1696]

as this explain esper power are contained in the soul , so without a soul there is no esper powers

 

[Accelerate420]

as this explain esper power are contained in the soul , so without a soul there is no esper powers

Even so, the Ability still requires the brain to function. You can't use the abiltiy if you can't calculate, so they're intertwined.

This still doesn't apply to Kakine, who, after Post Revival, no longer needs his organs and has essentionally just became regenerative Matter. His soul is not 'divided'. Otherwise Beetle 05, again, could not have occured and overtaken the network.

How the hell do you overtake your own soul? You don't. They are a network that works through transmitting thoughts. They are literaly Matter. Yes, maybe the Soul is still in the fridge, but he's lone since abandoned that and became a walking algorithim to achieve immortality.

 

[Malox1696]

What surfaced was just part him in the first place, if he is fully disconnected then he would need to have his own soul somewhere as it's needed to use esper powers

 

[Accelerate420]

What surfaced was just part him in the first place, if he is fully disconnected then he would need to have his own soul somewhere as it's needed to use esper powers

Yeah, that's why I kinda referenced that if it'd be anywhere, it'd be the fridge, but that's be irrelevant in a VS debate since Current Kakine is the DM body.

 

[Malox1696]

Even if it's disconnected from the fridge he must have a soul, what u don't udeunderst of "esper power reside in the soul" ?

 

[Accelerate420]

He's merely saying after removing different parts of an espers body and then testing their powers, they still persisted. Since no piece of the body was found to produce Esper power, it must originate from a body that contains the soul, an inexplicable cop out answer by science side standards. As this experiment was done through dissection, the only conclusive evidence is that power diminishes the smaller the body became meaning a larger body would yield a greater power.

This can't be correlated to Kakine, who no longer has a body for the soul and is merely a brain on ice which is interfaced through electrical signals with no loss in power, before the Dark Matter system becomes its own self sustaining entity.

 

[Malox1696]

The evidence of the experiment is that esper powers are related to souls, if u lack one u lose that relation and so the esper powers, as it's contained in it, not other physical part


be it artificial, split, etc, somewhere within the network kakine must have it be it connected form the network or not , and not DM and beetle kekine are 2 different individual so both have different one (in my opinion they are simply split like it was for the Doppler during the experiment, when they still had all the body part cut)

 

[Accelerate420]

No, Hishigata's experiment neither measured or analyzed the soul. It was a dissection experiment to see if Espers could use their powers after missing a piece of their body. The result were merely no single part is responsible for the origin of Esper ability so his lousy result was something inexplicable like the soul. The experiment only proved power weakened the smaller the body was.

That experiment is irrelevant to Post Revival Kakine. The rest sounds like headcanon, how is the soul existing without a body to house it? Beetle and PR Kakine are just dark matter possessing fragmented information from the original Kakine personality. In the doppelgänger experiment, the soul was hypothesized to leave the after the body containing it is destroyed... and like the conclusion of that arc artificial bodies most likely do not carry souls. And we have instances of artificial beings using Esper powers in some way or another.

 

[Malox1696]

The experiment proves that the soul contains it as no physical part has it

Like Maya or kazakiri or astral buddy ? They don't have a real body

That point is moth as they showed her in the end, but any way my point was not at the end of the experiment but during it, when they still had both mechanical and organic body parts , both had 1 soul just divided in 2 , just like kakine right now

 

[Accelerate420]

The experiment proves that the soul contains it as no physical part has it
Like Maya or kazakiri or astral buddy ? They don't have a real body

That point is moth as they showed her in the end, but any way my point was not at the end of the experiment but during it, when they still had both mechanical and organic body parts , both had 1 soul just divided in 2 , just like kakine right now

Maya is literally frequency waves.

 

[Malox1696]

And she still has a soul