Toaru Majutsu no Index General Discussion Thread 2

[LazyHunter]

Not really. NT11 it was a breather volume after the Othinus arc ended and before the next arc started. We had those before in OT, and it makes sense to have one after such a big arc. The other arcs were also not a waste of time since they developed Touma and Mikoto, explained more about magic gods, Aleister and Kiharas, and also developed the plot.

The other stuff is very subjective. IMO Kamisato was a good character, a very decent foil to Touma and the two played well off each other whenever they interacted. The magic gods were perfect as a bait since most people fell for it expecting shonen rules, and the few we got to see in more than a single scene like High Priest, Nephthys and Niang-Niang weren't particularly bad characters in any sense of the word and were even fun sometimes, the High Priest in particular was pretty great in NT13.

The only bad parts of the Kamisato arc were the first part of NT14 when Kamisato had like a chapter and half of him interacting with his harem on his own since it was using the same joke over and over again to reinforce his stance about his harem to the readers; and the three initial Kamisato Faction members, who were pretty boring overall. Salome, Fran and Luca had more interesting powers and were more entertaining and developed as characters than Claire, Elza and Ellen.

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah NT11 was nice addation focusing on misaki backstory that was mistake on my part

It's funny how he nearly killed all of them right after they were introduct you can totally erase them from the story and it won't change a thing , The magic god just doesn't fit the story they were way for the cast , indeed the villain in this series usually outcalls the heroes "fimma and gabriel back in IT" but after othinus it just get ridiculous

the Magic gods were very weak character IMO they got killed so quickly just meh

I need some accel in this arc please ~

 

[LazyHunter]

Considering that Kamachi intentionally used them as bait, they still played a part on the Kamisato arc and still influenced characters and events after being WRed, they only fought the good guys in one volume after they were nerfed, were obviously balanced by Aleister, AAA, WR and each other...

Sorry, but you're wrong. They were part of the story and the cast, and erasing them would substantially change the story, same as erasing Gremlin members besides Othinus, the Kiharas or Kakine being revived and birthing Beetle 05. Disliking the characters doesn't mean they were worthless, it's just that you disliked them, which is perfectly fine. For example, in Toaru, I dislike Terra of the Left and Biagio Busoni. I also dislike half of Bleach's antagonists, some Naruto characters and several Fairy Tail characters. It doesn't mean that those characters didn't play a part in their respective stories.

Accelerator should probably get something to do soon, it's just that he, Hamazura and traditional Magic Side characters didn't have many reasons to get involved in the Kamisato Arc besides the time Salome specifically went after them. As a part of Aleister's plan, Accelerator will probably get some part on the next arc.

 

[LazyHunter]

Accelerator's C35 and Railgun's C95 are out. Kind of obvious a cyborg like the Doppelganger would lose hard against an Electromaster like Mikoto, but we still got to see Mikoto make a nice storm cloud, and the scene with her, Doppelganger and Kuriba was nice.

In Accelerator Hishigata finally died, though he got to say goodbye to his sister at the end. The collapsing body causes an explosion that threatens to destroy AC, so Accelerator has to stop it.

Overall, it seems like the Dream Ranker arc is heading towards a nice end, while Accelerator's manga still has pacing issues.

 

[LazyHunter]

I added info about the Astral Buddy manga to the verse page. While I did that I went ahead and added a part about canon in the summary section. Thankfully the canon of the series is pretty straightforward.

 

[DontTalk]

I added a few things.

Btw. in regards to the series title I see Toaru and To Aru used at different sites and we also use in inconsistently here.

Given that bakatsuki spells it Toaru that probably is the correct one. Should I rename the page?

 

[LazyHunter]

Thanks, I missed adding those.

I think Toaru is the correct one since js06 and bakatsuki spell it that way. I don't know Japanese, so I'm not sure. We could always rename it to the English title and skip the debate, though, it might be better that way.

BTW, did you see the Uiharu & Kuroko SS that came with NT17? Genius level intelligence Uiharu when? XD

 

[DontTalk]

You mean "Using Final Bosses to Determine a Sociological Threat"?

Who would be the genius here though. Uiharu or the game developers that somehow predict the future?

That said Uiharu is a genius either way as one of the best hackers in the world ^^

 

[LazyHunter]

Uiharu is the one predicting future RL villains using video game trends. Kamachi's original version of Uiharu is pretty cool, shame the anime only uses Nagai's flanderized versions of the girls.

 

[DontTalk]

The volume to this point... just... wow.

So good.

 

[LazyHunter]

Agreed. I love how Kamachi included most of RL Crowley's "quirks", and how he had already mentioned his magic fighting style in the Necessarius SS, of all places. That callback to Endymion was also nice.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Sounds like i'd better start this volume

 

[DontTalk]

It goes towards the end and Kamachi definitely doesn't disappoint.


So I finished the volume. Tell once you two have finished, so we can go into details. ^^

 

[LazyHunter]

I also finished it. So much keikaku...

 

[LordAizenSama]

Nearly finished chapter 3. My thoughts on it right now?

 

[ZERO7772]

Seriouly that was insane the keikaku man strike again , i am yet to even finish the volume

 

[LordAizenSama]

I just finished it... wowwie.wow.wow....

 

[LazyHunter]

The fact that Aleister's stock description became relevant to the plot blew my mind.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This was the best volume ive read for as long as I remember. I enjoyed it even more than the Othinus 9 and 10 volumes

 

[LazyHunter]

IMO the best volume of NT with NT9.

The main thing to do for this volume is obviously a Crowley revision. Besides that, we have some IB and Aiwass feats.

 

[DontTalk]

^And Misaka+Misaki combination feat. (If we are at it we should add A.A.A stuff to Misaka)

One could possibly also add profiles for Mr. and Mrs. Mathers (latter as Thoth Tarot).

 

[ZERO7772]

i am yet to finish the volume , they had anymore feats than they already shown ? Alister and aiwass , i just know about the 1 billion Alister thing so far xD

 

[LazyHunter]

@ZERO7772

Aiwass had a feat and a statement, Crowley not really, but his page is now outdated given we got more direct info on his powers. I suggest you finish reading the novel before checking the thread again since we might enter spoiler territory when talking about the updates to make on the pages.

@DontTalk

Well, we added the mini-Gungnir to Index page even though it's a combination technique between 2 people (technically 3), so adding that would make sense. I'm afraid that some people will start rating her at that level like they do with her Level 6 Shift form and her theoretical self-destruction.

As for the Mathers, what are you thinking for the husband? I have no idea how to rate him besides scaling him to Oriana. For "Mina", I guess it would be two keys, one unknown base and one "Aiwass power" key, right? It's not the kind of character made to fight, though technically one could include her in a Crowley fight taking place in the Windowless Building.

 

[DontTalk]

For Mr. Mathers I would have thought we could scale to birdway.

He was one of the greatest magicians of his time, which was a golden era for the magic side, and Birdway uses pretty much the same magic. At least in AP that should work, I think.

I consider that one meaningful, as I think one could use it to scale to an Aleister without the Blasting Rod.


For Mina: Her Aiwass key will be the center, though things like her guiding illusions and being only seen by who she wants to are also interesting abilities.

As an original grimoire she should also have grimoire properties, albeit I am not sure what to do with the indestructibility of them here.


The Liquid Proof Railgun should be Multi-Continent level in AP, just to spell it out.


As for Aleister:

Abilities aside for now, what do we give him stat wise?

With the blasting rod he should get a "Varying" tier, with stats noted to go up to 2-A (I think we can take the claim that aleister can match magic gods through his unique method seriously).

Aside from that I would consider giving him scaling to birdway for a base tier. For one thing over mathers and for the other, because he is the, or at least one of the, most powerful magicians in the world.

Speed wise... Human level for now? I would consider removing the Immeasureable, as different than for the magic gods it isn't his default, or put it is an optional case for if he enters the hidden world.

For the limited omnipresence: In a way the reasoning doesn't change, but with the better explanation now I think we should put that differently. Probably should take it out of the speed stat.

Durability wise... Not sure. IB and Lola's sword were the only thing that harmed him and the latter after he was knocked down. Should we let it stay as it is now until he gets feats?


And for Aiwass stats: I suppose 2-A as well for being stated to match magic gods? Not sure what to do with speed and dura, though. I would guess given that he is created to fight magic gods we can conclude that he would likely not be one shot at least giving him a likely 2-A durability.


For IB we can probably solidify the higher negation tier, I guess? Not sure if Tier 3 or 2 and which specifically is most appropriate.

 

[LazyHunter]

I guess scaling Mathers to Birdway could work since he was a genius magician who managed to summon and bind Coronzon into a contract. He also destroyed the past iteration of IB, though it cost him an arm. I would put a "Possibly", though.

Mina: IIRC, grimoires' indestructibility comes from regenerating of any damage they suffer by absorbing ambient magic, which was a trait mentioned in this volume. I'll have to check this, though.

Agreed on Liquid Proof Railgun.

Aleister:

AP: Variable tier, with Blasting Rod it can go from weak enough that Tsuchimikado can shield himself with some trouble (High 8-C) to stomping Fiamma and then to magic god levels.

Speed: Obviously Immeasurable has to go. I have already expressed how I don't feel this applies to the magic gods and Crowley, Kamachi obviously didn't intend for them being able to exist and move in the Hidden World to be a speed feat, so this was inevitable. I'd scale him to Touma since the two had a simultaneous fist/spell cross-counter and put the "can exist in places without time and space" as a power right next to "existing in non-existant places".

Bilocation/Limited Omnipresence: Not sure if I would keep the Omnipresence, it's a weird form of duplication where he sends the alternate Aleister to a place in the world. It wouldn't count as a speed feat, anyway, so I agree with removing it from the speed stat.

Durability: Probably should be left as Unknown. IB bypassed any magical defenses he might have, but given his immortality he doesn't seem to have many, as he was shot by Tsuchi last volume.

Aiwass: I'd put it as "At least Low 2-C (Easily crushed a Invisible Thing described as being stronger than previous occasions, Aleister intends to use it to destroy all phases, stated by Othinus to have been constructed to opposed magic gods like her)

As for Touma, I was thinking about writing IB ratings like this "At least Multi-Planet level (Can deflect Othinus crossbow bolts, it's apparently used to seal IT, which is much stronger than La Persona Superiore a Dio!Fiamma and barely negated casual attacks from a powered up Aiwass that casually destroyed a stronger IT than the one from WWIII), likely higher, possibly Universe level+ (IB can be used to undo a phase shift, negated and destroyed Othinus' Gungnir, it's the "perfect shield" counterpart to World Rejecter's "perfect sword")"

ED: We could also move the image of Aleister with the Blasting Rod to the powers section and put the textless cover illustration as the new profile image.

 

[DontTalk]

I agree on changing the picture. I would maybe even consider not rendering it.

I agree about the rest of the stats as well.


If LordAizenSama approves as well, we can ask an admin to unlock the page.

 

[LazyHunter]

I checked for grimoires' indestructibility. I can't find anything about the Regenerationn, only that they absorb ambient magic, amplify it and use it to create magic defenses and counters. I must have imagined that somehow.

OT7 Chapter 2 Part 1:

"A grimoire cannot be burned. Particularly with originals, the very letters, words and sentences written in a grimoire convert to magic-like symbols by using energy leaking out from the ley lines as a power source like an automatic magic circle. So, the most we can do is seal it."

Norse Mythology SS Chapter 6 Part 3

"No one can destroy an Original." Birdway grabbed a juice box from out of the air and tossed it away again once she realized it was already empty. "An Original is a collection of high purity magical knowledge and each page, topic, and diagram acts like a high level magic circle. You could say it is an autonomous magical device. They gather up the faint power leaking from leylines, amplify it hundreds of times, and create thorough defenses and counter attacks in order to ensure that not even a tiny bit of the knowledge held within itself is destroyed. This effect does not allow any natural weathering of the parchment and prevents it from being destroyed even if all sorts of magicians work together in a group."

Side note, this is from Necessarius SS, where Itsuwa foreshadowed Aleister's spiritual magic.

"If you could interfere with anyone you wanted like that, magicians wouldn't have to work so hard! You couldn't have caught up with my spell just by mimicking my actions!!"

"True. About the only person who could have done that with no preparation would have been Crowley who was known for his ability to spiritually knock people to the ground."

 

[LordAizenSama]

I disagree about downgrading Immeasurable speed for the true magic gods, since they live there and Kamachi perfectly described the hidden world to have immeasurable speed. Nothing in the story contradicts them having immeasurable speed at their best.

Though for Aleister maybe we can just write it off as a outlier?

I agree about the varying tier for Aleister, 2-A Aiwass and the rest

 

[DontTalk]

Hmmm... were we debating the magic god case again? Thought this was only about removing it for Crowley.

Well for him we at least seem to be in agreement on it being taken as a special ability that shouldn't apply to his normal speed.

The difference is really default nature.


Regarding whether at least 2-C or 2-A Aiwass: The statement about Aiwass fighting magic gods was strictly given by othinus refering to "magic gods such as [her]".

But I just noticed that there was also the statement "This was the great treasure built up in order to overpower all of the Magic Gods, including full-power Othinus", which seems to more explicitely involve all of True Gremlin, even if the focus is on Othinus, and interestingly mentions overpowering them, not just defeating.

So 2-A or likely 2-A might not be unjustified after all.


@LazyHunter: So what would you suggest giving for the grimoirs invincibility?

"at least City level, likely higher" for someone like Birdway stating that they are impossible to destroy?

 

[LazyHunter]

^ If someone like Birdway considers it impossible then we're in another Kreutune situation, so "at least City level (Original Grimoires are considered to be impossible to destroy, even by magicians like Birdway)" seems fair.

 

[ZERO7772]

Hmm if aiwass was said to be above all yhe magic gods i don't see the point of downpplaying him , we know since forever he's othinus and It's on his profile already

 

[LazyHunter]

Samuel Mathers page is done. Should we update Touma's page first? Or do we go straight into Aleister's?

 

[DontTalk]

Hmm... doesn't really matter, I think?

I will just ask for Aleister and Aiwass to be unlocked so changes can be made.

Edit: Are unlocked.

 

[LazyHunter]

Okay. Which one do you want to do?

 

[DontTalk]

I have started doing Aleister for now, though with my terrible english writing skill the ability descriptions should probably be looked over.

 

[LazyHunter]

I'll update Aiwass stats to 2-A then. I don't know if I'll have time now to revise the ability descriptions, I might give that a shot tomorrow since it's pretty late.

Also, just realized that Aleister has Precognition and Flight listed. Should we remove those? (Technically one of them can fly, though) We should remove Immortality Type 1, given that he mentioned he extended his lifespan by 1700 years. Higher Dimensional Manipulation should probably be changed from "possibly" to "limited", given his use of non-euclidean space on the WB.

 

[DontTalk]

Precognition should be removed.

Higher dimensional should be changed to spatial manipulation. Non-euclidean space isn't necessarily higher dimensional.

Immortality should be replaced by longevity.


I also specified the conceptual manipulation to archetype manipulation, to avoid confusion.


About the flight... if one can fly all can, no? They are the same person after all...

 

[LazyHunter]

I mean, that one did it with a broom, a tool the others don't seem to have, and I don't doubt that Aleister could fly if he wanted to given that like invisibility it's not a complicated spell, even for mooks. You can leave it if you want.

 

[LazyHunter]

Aiwass is done. I have to go to sleep so I'll check Aleister's page tomorrow.

 

[DontTalk]

I will not add anything relating to this to the page for now, but a question for tomorrow:

""Will that power take your target's life or take away the possibility for life? …In other words, even if they survive, they will essentially bear a curse saying that, from that point on, every choice they ever make will end in failure. Everyone who is 'killed' by you will despair and be doomed to a life that continues eternally downhill without ever rising once more. In a way, this will be a living hell that is much crueler than simple death.""

Is the dying or taking away the possibility of life a by effect of Spiritual Tripping, a seperate curse, some passive ability of Aleister or something else?

I am not sure.