(To Aru Revision) A Certain Magical Revision New Testament

[Churronzon]

Well I found that IB is incomplete so maybe that's the reason.

“Now, then. World Rejecter has begun to move. Imagine Breaker was unable to contain
the dreams of all magicians in its incomplete form, so what overflowed has gathered
together to form another dream. What will you do, ‘human’? It almost looks like you were
born under a star that destined you to never obtain the things you wish for most.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 13 Epilogue

 

[Churronzon]

Like, for real guys, unless y'all think IB can PUNCH and actually do DAMAGE comparable to Gungnir and Flaming Sword then he shouldn't have H1C AP.

Destroying Gungnir, dispelling Flaming Sword, and doing catastrophic damage to heaven can't be considered AP?

Power null could have made it so that Gungnir becomes defunct, similar to Knight Leader's Thororm spell, yet it's stated that IB chooses to destroy, not deflect or anything else.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Imagine Breaker just continues to be the weird power-null that it is, I see... Side note, if we continue with Zon's train of logic, wouldn't that mean IB has High 1-C Striking Strength against supernatural bodies and objects?

 

[XDragnoir]

Destroying Gungnir, dispelling Flaming Sword, and doing catastrophic damage to heaven can't be considered AP?

Power null could have made it so that Gungnir becomes defunct, similar to Knight Leader's Thororm spell, yet it's stated that IB chooses to destroy, not deflect or anything else.

I am pretty sure it's never stated he'd do catastrophic damage to Heaven, it doesn't even make sense for IB to damage Heaven because it is a "natural" part of the world, IB even recreated it after Othinus blew everything.

Does dispelling even have anything to do with AP? Anyway, Touma got ****** up the first time FS was used against him, but nulled it without much trouble the second time iirc, not sure why this would even be related with AP to begin with.

As for Gungnir, if it became defunct it wouldn't even be H1C anymore, would it? Also, the destruction IB causes is literally made clear to be via it's power null, it has been destroying magical objects and summons since OT1, damn Touma doesn't even need to actually punch them as just touching already breaks them (we see this very clearly with KnT), why would this be AP at all?

For real, this topic is so dumb.

 

[Churronzon]

I am pretty sure it's never stated he'd do catastrophic damage to Heaven, it doesn't even make sense for IB to damage Heaven because it is a "natural" part of the world, IB even recreated it after Othinus blew everything.

No, it's only implied.

It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or
hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even
imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 09 Between the Connected Points

I guess you could make the conclusion that absolutely nothing would happen to heaven, if you want.

it doesn't even make sense for IB to damage Heaven because it is a "natural" part of the world, IB even recreated it after Othinus blew everything.

Oh god, back to this. I thought we concluded that Othinus didn't destroy heaven. IB didn't restore it either; it only restored Touma's world.

I don't care anymore if the tiering is removed. Just put me as neutral. Now let's try to figure out an explanation for why World Rejecter doesn't get power nulled. Is it considered harmonious and not a target for nullification, similar to Othinus's current state and Coronzon with an avatar?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I don't care anymore if the tiering is removed. Just put me as neutral. Now let's try to figure out an explanation for why World Rejecter doesn't get power nulled. Is it considered harmonious and not a target for nullification, similar to Othinus's current state and Coronzon with an avatar?

Ye, that is probably the easiest and most possible answer, IMO.

 

[Doggo]

Doggo said:
same reasons as XDragnoir

Ah, got'cha. Welp, let me try this argument... There is one recurring theme for my two MJ Wall level calculations and my two Small Building level calc - that is also following through all the way up to the High 8-C calc - which is... none of the feat performers put much effort into performing said feats and those in the receiving end weren't harmed by said attacks that much.

First 9-B feat was a BoS feat and done after Kuroko was being beaten for an untold timeframe, the second 9-B feat was done by Agnese repeatedly striking surfaces with her rod and to create invisible attacks that Touma could tank, first 9-A feat was Arei just using a nearby tree to stop her flight after getting headbutted by Junko, second 9-A feat was just Mami casually kicking a person through a thick wall, first 8-C was casually done by Junko to slam a water tank into the room and flood it in order to disable Iruka's equipment, second 8-C feat was of Seike getting slammed into a trunk by Accelerator and received no apparent injuries but Accelerator decided to screw with him via messing with his bio-electricity to knock him out cold, and the High 8-C feat was an unintentional and casual wall-busting feat.

8-B is where the lower-tier has to put effort into enduring when they are i the receiving end. And even then, they aren't too badly injuried or crippled by them. The 8-A feats, after I looked at them, are where the lower tier characters start suffering from notable damage and injuries, but there is still a thing called downscaling, but I digress

Same 8-C feats done by espers who can increase their physical abilities....

 

[Aseka]

I have no idea. But... It makes the most sense. Imagine Breaker and World Rejector are the same type of power that came from the same source - the end result of their abilities are different, but both of those hands are still the hopes and dreams of magicians of returning to the original world/going to a new world. Imagine Breaker being able to negate World Rejector would essentially mean that it could negate itself. Am talking about out of my bum, tho. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

Now talking about this, should Imagine Breaker and World Rejecter get limited Abstract Existence type 2?

 

[Doggo]

Idk what other reason there is for why World Rejecter doesn't get power nulled. If it's straight up a stronger smurf hax that can overpower the other, then we might as well tier them.

Thats wrong for various reasons

1. That likely means it has layered Bfr
2. Kamijou was having conflicting desires which made him a great traget for wr...seriouly this was an important plot point for the entire arc how could you ignore this?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Same 8-C feats done by espers who can increase their physical abilities....

Seike, whose only ability is to manipulate friction, was the one on the receiving end of said 8-C feat - it doesn't matter that Accelerator was the cause, the end result still results in Seike, a esper with an ability that doesn't directly strengthen him, surviving said 8-C feat with little to no injuries. For Junko's 8-C feat it is a small scaling thing via the fact that Arei, with hard taping, could fight a non-full power Junko who did said 8-C, who then later fought Kuroko, which would give the opportunity for said teleporter to downscale to said 8-C as she was able to endure repeated hits from Arei even while Kuroko wasn't at a 100% percent and kept fighting against her until the hard taping user's stamina gave out.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Now talking about this, should Imagine Breaker and World Rejecter get limited Abstract Existence type 2?

Hm... Maybe. Might need more scans for that, tho.

Thats wrong for various reasons

1. That likely means it has layered Bfr
2. Kamijou was having conflicting desires which made him a great traget for wr...seriouly this was an important plot point for the entire arc how could you ignore this?

Also, this is a great point. So no power null resistance for WR! ... I think.

... Okay, moving on, we all agree to remove the High 1-C Rating for WR, right? And to remove the High 1-C rating for IB, and replace it with Durability Negation? ... But before we move on, we can probably use this CRT as a chance to add in the stuff (abilities) that these two right hands need - so let's talk about this topic, and come to an agreement since it is going to be a pain to do this in another CRT.

 

[Doggo]

Hm... Maybe. Might need more scans for that, tho.

Also, this is a great point. So no power null resistance for WR! ... I think.

... Okay, moving on, we all agree to remove the High 1-C Rating for WR, right? And to remove the High 1-C rating for IB, and replace it with Durability Negation? ... But before we move on, we can probably use this CRT as a chance to add in the stuff (abilities) that these two right hands need - so let's talk about this topic, and come to an agreement since it is going to be a pain to do this in another CRT.

They should have summoning in their profile. I also think kamisato should have info manip...i think (need to find that scan)

 

[Churronzon]

That likely means it has layered Bfr

Learn something new every day.

2. Kamijou was having conflicting desires which made him a great traget for wr...seriouly this was an important plot point for the entire arc how could you ignore this?

I never said Touma didn't qualify for BFR; quite the opposite actually. IB should be trying to negate WR, yet it failed to do so. What is your reason for IB failing/being overpowered? Layered hax?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

They should have summoning in their profile. I also think kamisato should have info manip...i think (need to find that scan)

Adding onto this... Why should they have summoning in their profiles? ... Well, I get Touma due to his dragon zoo... But Kamisato... Don't get it. Also this info manip sounds interesting.

 

[Aseka]

Might need more scans for that, tho

Why? It clearly stated that Imagine Breaker and World Rejecter born from wishes.

 

[Doggo]

Adding onto this... Why should they have summoning in their profiles? ... Well, I get Touma due to his dragon zoo... But Kamisato... Don't get it. Also this info manip sounds interesting.

I'm talking about the Kihara chick who was able to summon clones of the magic gods. Of course he never used this but it still should be mentioned in his profile

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Wait, wasn't that entirely something that could only be done by Yuiitsu due to the shiz that she had? It is even in her profile and it states tha it came from the combination of Sample Shoggoth and the St. German virus to produce imitations of some of the Magic Gods exiled by World Rejecter and their attacks as a form of a buff... On that end, Yuiitsu should get Summoning, but not Kakeru.

 

[Doggo]

Wait, wasn't that entirely something that could only be done by Yuiitsu due to the shiz that she had? It is even in her profile and it states tha it came from the combination of Sample Shoggoth and the St. German virus to produce imitations of some of the Magic Gods exiled by World Rejecter and their attacks as a form of a buff... On that end, Yuiitsu should get Summoning, but not Kakeru.

k then

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Well, is there anything more to talk about regarding ability additions for Touma and Yuiitsu? Durability Negation via Imagine Breaker and Summoning for Touma. Summoning for Yuiitsu. That is it? Aseka did mention something about abstract existence type 2 for IB and WR... but I don't know shit about abstract existence in the first place, and don't really know if IB and WR fits it even if those powers were both born for the Magic Gods and the hopes and wishes of magicians.

... I also have two more calcs in the works as a result of this CRT, despite this fanta wishing that they took a break from such things, and they are a High 8-C calc and 8-B (low) or 8-A (high) calc due to Touma's doing his shiz... Am feeling too lazy to make a user blog for them atm, tho. lol.

 

[Aseka]

Aseka did mention something about abstract existence type 2 for IB and WR... but I don't know shit about abstract existence in the first place, and don't really know if IB and WR fits it even if those powers were both born for the Magic Gods and the hopes and wishes of magicians.

They should have it, but as limited one.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thoughts if WR and IB having Limited abstract existence type 2, folks? If everyone is in agreement and/or neutral about the idea, I'll add it to the TLDR section on my post.

 

[Doggo]

Thoughts if WR and IB having Limited abstract existence type 2, folks? If everyone is in agreement and/or neutral about the idea, I'll add it to the TLDR section on my post.

Because it was made by wishes? Seems weird to me

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Suppose that is a no for you, Doggo?

 

[XDragnoir]

Thoughts if WR and IB having Limited abstract existence type 2, folks? If everyone is in agreement and/or neutral about the idea, I'll add it to the TLDR section on my post.

Just being created by wishes isn't abstract existence, so no.

 

[Doggo]

Suppose that is a no for you, Doggo?

yep

 

[XDragnoir]

Tho, if someone goes through the trouble of gathering all quotes about IB and WR, i think that cold be possible, but just the "born from wishes" bit means nothing.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Tho, if someone goes through the trouble of gathering all quotes about IB and WR, i think that cold be possible, but just the "born from wishes" bit means nothing.

Hm. I can try that, and others can chip in. After all, I forsee this CRT is going to take longer than expected since I need to make a calc or three to strengthen my stance on upgrading the lower tier cast. Could also do the two clouds feat that Mikoto did that I was too lazy to calc... Gosh darn it... my work is never going to be done... jk, I am just a calc-nut, and too knee-deep in my self appointed role of being the idiot who is going to make as much calcs as possible for the verse that they enjoys at this point.

 

[XDragnoir]

It is still colliding with walls, Noir. That is a physical feat of flying away from somebody strong and having to slam through walls to get away from them, nothing more nothing less. It was also a literal face-first impact. Can't say much else.

I plan to answer to the rest of your post tomorrow, but at least this part i will try to deal with now.

What you're not getting about this feat is that he was completely covered in water he was controlling with his esper power, there is no way to scale this feat to how hard he can punch, it literally was done by his powers.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Noted, I'll wait for your answer... On my end, I need to shake away my laziness and get to work on doing calcs... Lol... At the rate I am going, I am going to make around forty ToAru user blogs...

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I just realized something very important for Mikoto's rating... Let me just write it out using ratings.

[Insert Tier Here] physically, higher with Magnetism, 8-A/7-C (via my 7-C calc) with Railgun, 7-C/7-B (via the fact that I found something that raised it to this level and made a calc for it, not confirmed by a CGMs if it is legit or not, so don't hope too much) with Electricity

Magnetism refers to, well, Mikoto using metallic objects and iron sand. Am essentially mimicking Doctor Strange (MCU)'s profile in regards to his conjured weaponry. Like I have doubts that it is equal in strength as her railgun, basically.

Am still not sure on what to do in regards to Mikoto's durability, tho. Should not scale to any of her offensive/AP calcs, imo. Hm...

[Insert Tier Here] Physically, Likely much higher with Magnetism?

Does this work?

 

[XDragnoir]

I just realized something very important for Mikoto's rating... Let me just write it out using ratings.

[Insert Tier Here] physically, higher with Magnetism, 8-A/7-C (via my 7-C calc) with Railgun, 7-C/7-B (via the fact that I found something that raised it to this level and made a calc for it, not confirmed by a CGMs if it is legit or not, so don't hope too much) with Electricity

Magnetism refers to, well, Mikoto using metallic objects and iron sand. Am essentially mimicking Doctor Strange (MCU)'s profile in regards to his conjured weaponry. Like I have doubts that it is equal in strength as her railgun, basically.

Am still not sure on what to do in regards to Mikoto's durability, tho. Should not scale to any of her offensive/AP calcs, imo. Hm...

[Insert Tier Here] Physically, Likely much higher with Magnetism?

Does this work?

Yeah, that would be good enough IMO.

Tho, which 7C calc are you talking about for her Railgun?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This one: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...rst/Accelerator_Manga_Feat_Calculation_Part_4

It is 14.01 Kilotons, and a level 4 did it. Figured it could scale to Mikoto's Railgun via the same logic Mugino's profile has a 8-B rating due to it being done by a level 4 (ability).

Also, 7-B calc was accepted. So 7-B L5s might be one the table, depending if we could scale it to anybody other Mikoto... Maybe through the logic that Mugino has more firepower than Mikoto, so Kakine could scale since his Dark Matter could take on Mugino's Meltdowner Beams, Accelerator is Accelerator (and fought Kakine), and Gunha could get a Possibly 7-B rating due to the Fanfare statement in where Mikoto wasn't sure if she could win against him (and vice versa for Gunha) and the fact that he fought against L6 Shift Mikoto for a good while?

 

[XDragnoir]

It is 14.01 Kilotons, and a level 4 did it. Figured it could scale to Mikoto's Railgun via the same logic Mugino's profile has a 8-B rating due to it being done by a level 4 (ability).

Iirc, the 8B feat was done by a Level 4 laser beam, so a Level 5 laser beam would logically be stronger, but i am really not sure about this feat, it could scale to Accel (and then Kakine) as not only is he the strongest esper but wind is one of his preferred methods of attacking, scaling it to Mikoto's lightning would be possible too i think.

I think the same logic for Accel could be applied to the 7B calc, but i doubt we can really scale Mugino to that feat, but this feat seems a lot harder to actually scale anyone to, just like the other thundercloud feat.

On this topic tho, i also want to add this quote from Biohacker:

For one thing, that was not a weather phenomenon that happened in Japan. She felt like she was looking at a cheaply edited photo.

That esper could control the planetary environment or the largescale climate.

Even Kumokawa could only think of a few espers on that level.

(The #1’s vector control or the #3’s high-voltage electricity. And when it comes to pure control of weather conditions, she must be stronger even than them.)

While yeah, Gunha should scale for taking L6S lightning in the case we end up scaling Mikoto's lightnings to 7C/7B.

Does DT know about this thread already?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. I forgot about the BC. Honestly, wasn't sure about Mugino so was just spitballing, but do you think a Possibly Rating for the 7-C thing for Mugino? I think it would for Gunha, based on what you said. And I would think DT would know since I linked this thread in the ToAru thread and this CRT is semi-active most of the time, probs just busy atm.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm. Weren't there statements that said Level 5s were comparable to nuclear bombs? Probably a bit hypothetical, and only considering the sheer potency of their abilities considering a certain mental out and unknown number 6, it would help a bit in scaling Accelerator and Kakine to Mikoto's feat - there is also Kakie's statement of being able to take on the entire world's armies and all of the Esper in AC (and come out unharmed), Accelerator's nuclear shelter destruction feat from Index OT 19 that DT threw around (and Acclerator's Plasma Ball that could carve out such a thing), and that statement of Mikoto's railgun being able to destroy a nuclear shelter as well. There are also several statements that said a character can pierce a nuclear shelter and/or comparable to nuclear bombs, which with Saints, if my mind is recalling this correctly, so the nuclear statements should've some merit, all things considered.

 

[Doggo]

Misaka on the Megaton range? Sounds like an outlier ngl

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Probably not, imo. We never actually seen Mikoto's full capabilities as there aren't many people in AC that can challenge her - and not lolstomps her, i.e Accelerator, or lolnopes her attacks, i.e Touma - in the first place.

Even in the Railgun manga, with the sole expection of Kimi and the Angel Dragon but she has the excuse of having a dura-neg salt beam and the dragon being stronger than Mikoto; the Doppelganger has its unique abilities and the fact there wasn't much of a direct confrontation until the end - plus, it wanted to die - and Mugino could uniquely counter Mikoto's abilities and Mikoto was also exhausted.

There is room for it and it doesn't break scaling as it is still far far below Saint-Tier and above folks. It also wouldn't bump anybody up that isn't a Level 5, even if they were hit by it, due to how odd scaling to electricity is (requires a person to be in mid-air and within melee range, among other complex and situational steps) and how Mikoto has the explicit ability to control the output of her attacks.

 

[Doggo]

Probably not, imo. We never actually seen Mikoto's full capabilities as there aren't many people in AC that can challenge her - and not lolstomps her, i.e Accelerator, or lolnopes her attacks, i.e Touma - in the first place.

Even in the Railgun manga, with the sole expection of Kimi and the Angel Dragon but she has the excuse of having a dura-neg salt beam and the dragon being stronger than Mikoto; the Doppelganger has its unique abilities and the fact there wasn't much of a direct confrontation until the end - plus, it wanted to die - and Mugino could uniquely counter Mikoto's abilities and Mikoto was also exhausted.

There is room for it and it doesn't break scaling as it is still far far below Saint-Tier and above folks. It also wouldn't bump anybody up that isn't a Level 5, even if they were hit by it, due to how odd scaling to electricity is (requires a person to be in mid-air and within melee range, among other complex and situational steps) and how Mikoto has the explicit ability to control the output of her attacks.

huh neat

 

[Aseka]

On this topic tho, i also want to add this quote from Biohacker

The esper that could control the planetary environment is a Level 4?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

The esper that could control the planetary environment is a Level 4?

Nope. Beginning Child, or BC for short, was said to be around the level of a Level 5 and is apparently superior and stronger to Accelerator and Mikoto in terms of manipulating the weather according to Seria, which makes it legit. The only reason she isn't a level 5 is due to her predating them.