To Aru Magic Gods should resist all their own abilities?

[DontTalkDT]

This is a continuation of this thread, but there is no need to read that.

The claim to be discussed is the following: "The Magic Gods should have resistance to all of their own abilities, because the novel suggests that they can't defeat one another."

Written out that means the addition of Resistance to Death Manipulation, Time Manipulation,Reality Warping ,Spatial Manipulation, BFR(Teleport), Energy Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Element Manipulation, Gravity Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Fear Aura, Physics Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Magic.

The following quotes are everything ever stated regarding the subject:

"But you are at least faintly aware of it, aren't you?" The High Priest seemed to be testing him. "We Magic Gods have everything. We have the power to destroy the world and remake it from scratch. Also, we feel no threat from the outside world. An attack from anything other than a Magic God would be less noticeable than a mosquito bite." "Then your problem is…?" "Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?" The golden world Othinus had shown him had only been happiness as she saw it. If there had been five or ten Magic Gods there, they each would have added their own ideas of happiness and come into conflict. As a result, they might have started fighting to protect their own version of happiness. Simply put… "If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out." "So there's just too much power between all of you?" "Hah hah! Indeed. That is a good way of putting it. We have too much power. And Gremlin is the reconciliation council that was created." Kamijou recalled the idea of magic names. Magicians carved those names into their hearts and they represented the original desire that led them to step from the normal path. They all self-deprecatingly said those desires would never be granted, but they still never stopped reaching for that jewel-like glitter. But what if their wishes could be granted in five seconds? They had not known if they could accomplish it even after a long, long life's work, so what if it was complete after just a few moments? What would they do with the power they were left with? And what if others also had enough power to singlehandedly create or destroy the world? "It isn't something we could simply ignore," said the High Priest. "Kamijou Touma, do you believe in destiny?" "Destiny?" "Ha ha. That may be difficult for someone poisoned by science in Academy City, but you must have always felt that you were burdened with misfortune." "…" "There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods. Of course, we have no intention of harming any specific individual. In fact, the individuals clinging to this puny planet never enter our field of vision. Still, our actions are constantly affecting the outside world and make great changes in the world. It can be quite a problem."

If Kamijou had not known better, he might have reflexively argued back, but he knew the power of a true Magic God. If multiple individuals with Othinus's full power existed in a single world, he could see how they would end up in an unmanageable fight over their ideas of happiness. In which case…

"I already said that we have no interest in the outside world. The different Magic Gods are fighting over the limited resources to decide what to do with the one and only world. Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed. Even for us, there are areas where we do not know what should be done with the world and cannot tell where the world is headed. But what if we could provide a definite directional focus with a singular set of values?"

Didn't the High Priest tell you what the true Gremlin wants?" "You mean that stuff about having me score the distortions and destiny created when you Magic Gods fight over resources?

In my opinion these quotes don't clearly indicate resistance against any particular ability and hence don't suffice to proof the claim.

I'm thankful for any opinion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think this seems reasonable.

 

[Ionliosite]

I don't see what part on these quotes implies resistance.

 

[Accelerate420]

I don't see what part on these quotes implies resistance.

It's the implication that no matter what abilities they toss at eachother they can't hurt eachother with any of their Magic abilities, hence the stalemate. If Magic Gods could kill eachother with Time Hax or something they'd never need to fight over resources endlessly if such a thing were possible, more or less.

Also it'd be helpful if you could add votes on who agrees, doesn't, neutral and what not from the other thread over to here. thank you! I can grab them if you'd like.

 

[Elizhaa]

Yeah, I think DontTalkDT's points are reasonable.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

MG's should be able to atleast resist other MG abilities, otherwise one could just warp the others out of existence if they turned their backs or let their guard down which doesn't really fit the narrative the story sets (MG's would just endlessly fight eachother with no winner)

so i'm fine with it

 

[Promestein]

I agree with DontTalk, I don't see anything even suggesting resistance besides the fact that they can fight.

 

[Der_Wehrwolf]

This is reasonable imo. The idea that HP could warp Niang Niang and co away at any time or when she's not looking is extremely silly. There would be no point to having True Gremlin.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

I agree with DontTalk, I don't see anything even suggesting resistance besides the fact that they can fight.

besides the fact that they fight eachother over the world and cannot beat eachother despite reality warping being their primary power.

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

This is reasonable imo. The idea that HP could warp Niang Niang and co away at any time or when she's not looking is extremely silly. There would be no point to having True Gremlin.

indeed. they would not need to cooperate with eachother if they could just blink eachother out of existence.

 

[Kepekley23]

Yeah, that definitely seems like shady reasoning.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I always hated this logic.

There are more ways to circumvent a power than resistances. We shouldn't hand out resistances due to vague implications like that

 

[StrongClick]

Like what? Considering 10+ MGs with equal capacity/same abilities have been fighting for eons?

 

[Accelerate420]

I always hated this logic.
There are more ways to circumvent a power than resistances. We shouldn't hand out resistances due to vague implications like that

How would an MG circumvent another MG? Could you please explain your logic?

 

[Oma-Zi_o022]

I agree with Der Wehrwolf.

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with DT and the others

 

[Skalt711]

I don't see any resistance implication, so I don't see any reason to add resistances, eh.

 

[Damage3245]

I also don't see any implication of specific resistances.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't see any implication of that either.

 

[Schnee_One]

Yeeaaaaaahhhh after looking at this again I don't see it either, I jumped the gun a bit early last thread

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like DontTalk's reasoning has been accepted then.

 

[Malox1696]

Call it resistance or whatever u want they can't affect each other even don't talk agreed to that in the previous thread Don't Talk: " Using your own ability to counter another ability isn't a resistance. If two MG's use their fate manipulation to counter each others fate manipulation that is no feat of resistance. "

"And if the MG's counter each other powers by reacting on them with their own power that isn't a resistance either.

To that comes that, as I already mentioned, MG's can escape phase rewriting and their shared hax can largely be associated with rewriting phases." , be it counter with passive abilities or constant buff they gave on them self , this is not about votes or I agree FRA, this is about not creating logical fallacy

hypothesis: MG can't kill each others as stated in the novel so they must have way to resist/counter/etc each other abilities

1: assume they CAN'T resist/counter/etc each others ----> all the novels would not exist as 1 MG would simply warp the other out of existence and have created is own perfect world

2: assume they CAN resist/counter/etc each others ----> they would need to compromise and come to a stand still like they did in the novel

people are free to explain with logical counter arguments

 

[Zensum]

TLDR
Looking for individual resistances is missing the point. All the abilities listed in OP are associated with phase magic. The main ability of a MG.

If you consider the magic name passage for some story context. The MG's are compared to painters who only have one canvas to paint on which is the world. A MG can't paint their own picture with other MG's painting on the same canvas. Thus the problem. The MG's would without a doubt resort to anything to remove the other members of True Gremlin to fulfill their version of the world. As the text says the idea of a magic name still rings true to MG's. Meaning their original reason for using magic in the first place is to realize the goal of said name, it's why magic users as a whole are so individualistic/selfish. They merely join organizations like cabals, magic groups and as far as MG's are concerned True Gremlin to fulfill that goal. The fact that True Gremlin was made means there was a 0% chance to overcome the other gods to achieve their own personal version of the world, thus the reconciliation council.

Now, just for clarification are we entertaining the idea that the only thing stopping high priest, who can warp the setting with just a thought, from taking out all other magic gods and achieving his personal goal is the fact each individual god counter warps at the same instant high preist does to prevent themselves from being warped out of existence as they have no resistances. And they have just repeated this chain ad infinitum since the beginning of time more believable than a MG merely resisting phase magic, the generic ability all MG's possess?

Note: This is the scenario I'm addressing because it's the only counter argument on the first thread.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree that resistance shouldn't be given for this. Reality warping gods fighting yet not blinking each other out of existence happens all the time and is PIS unless otherwise specified.

 

[Malox1696]

I agree that resistance shouldn't be given for this. Reality warping gods fighting yet not blinking each other out of existence happens all the time and is PIS unless otherwise specified.

it is specified that if they could they would have been happy with 1 god

"If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out."

"Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?"

 

[Agnaa]

What's your point there?

If you're implying that "They actually want there to be only one god, but they can't make that happen!" then there's still PIS there, to use their painter analogy, every other painter could simply stop painting if they all only wanted one painter.

If you're claiming that they all wanted to fight it out so there'd only be one of them, that still falls under PIS for why they can't just wipe each other out.

 

[Malox1696]

They don't agree on who is the best painter u could say, each gods have their own idea of perfect world, if u follow buddhist way a life of poverty leads to happiness, if u follow greek way life of luxury and enlightenment leads to happiness , for christian not killing is the way to live life, for norse gods only death in battle will lead to happiness, that's why in the same novel the quotes are from they ask the MC to be the common ruler

and that PIS would be ?

 

[StrongClick]

??? The point is they each want to be the painter. The narration is saying there would be no issue is there was one painter.

It's not PIS, the story makes it obvious they can't defeat each other. It's why True Gremlin is a thing.

 

[Mindovin]

Only things I know about the series are from profiles and this thread.

Considering they are fightning against each other and can't kill each other (I assume) either they have good regen that they can't overcome (they have Mid to High regen so this out of the window I guess) or resistant to each other's abilities.

I mean we are mentioning really hax abilities like probability manip, void manip, death manip, etc. so if their abilities are strong (they aren't explained in the profiles though I look at 2 of them) they should get possibly or likely at the least.

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah, I agree with adding the resistance FRA, having the High Priest stating they can fight each other for eons but then one user tells you they can one shot each other if the other guys isn't looking is BS at best.

The magic gods can look Chimera without suffering form mind or souls haxx, it would be fair to assume they can resist each other if the HP clamin have ANY legitimacy.

 

[Agnaa]

That doesn't even approach the point I said earlier.

Reality warping gods fighting yet not blinking each other out of existence happens all the time and is PIS unless otherwise specified.

Tons of other series have gods that don't defeat each other despite fighting constantly, and despite having insane levels of hax. We don't give any of them resistances unless it's specified because we assume it's PIS.

 

[ZERO7772]

Are people even reading this thread? Magic Gods have abilities like Reality warpping, death manip, time manip, and probability.

How are the magic gods supposed to statement each other if they can't resist any of those? The magic gods can magiclly resist Cahimera's soul and mind hax but everything is nope.

 

[StrongClick]

It's not PIS because it's the plot of the volume itself. True Gremlin is the result of no winner being possible in a MG v MG battle.

 

[Agnaa]

And tons of other series have plot points around their gods fighting?????

Things can be plot points and still be PIS, that's the whole reason why it's called PIS - character's capabilities are contradicted for the sake of plot. Saying "it's the plot" doesn't mean it's not PIS.

 

[StrongClick]

Nothings being contradicted? They all have the same capabilities... These are equivalent gods in all regards but myth they originate from.

Also zen that last scenario is absurd.

 

[Malox1696]

PIS comes in when there is no logical explanation, but this part literally explain they do fight and would eliminate the others if they could, they just don't do it much as they would affect the world, and then they would have to recreate it and so on and on , already their own existence warps reality and simply subconscious thought affect destiny giving luck or misfortune to people, that would already mean they would apply those changes to each other at the very least

 

[ZERO7772]

And tons of other series have plot points around their gods fighting?????

Things can be plot points and still be PIS, that's the whole reason why it's called PIS - character's capabilities are contradicted for the sake of plot. Saying "it's the plot" doesn't mean it's not PIS.

Did you even look the definition of PIS? Here:

PIS, short for "Plot-Induced Stupidity" is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot

Magic Gods being able to resist each other abilities contradict nothing that the series established about them about the lore, the True Gremlin exist BECAUSE magic gods can't reach a solution between each other even through fighting each other. It goes well what was established about them actually.

You can't go and smack PIS on something just because you don't like it reasoning

 

[TIHYDDWBE]

indeed. if you're going to play the PIS card I would expect some quotes or scans to verify such claims.

I say this in full confidence knowing you have nothing to substantiate your claim with, as I do infact read the source material .

 

[Agnaa]

Yes, and no logical explanation is provided, and you're inferring an explanation that isn't provided in the text.

Instead of repeating my last 4 posts again, I'll try bringing up an example of another plot event that's considered PIS despite having possible plot explanations.

During one of the last arcs of Medaka Box, a character uses an ability to bring the moon down. Two of the characters have Existence Erasure abilities that haven't demonstrated upper limits on what they can erase, yet they don't even consider using them, and they despair about how they're going to die. So why don't they just EE the moon? Well we could say:

• The moon, or the abilities of the character who brought it down in general, resists causality-based existence erasure. This is unjustified and unlikely, but not impossible.
• The ability can't erase things the size of the moon, despite never having such size/range limits ever established in the text. This is unjustified and unlikely, but not impossible.

Yet we explain it with PIS.

Magic Gods being able to resist each other abilities contradict nothing that the series established about them about the lore

Them not displaying those resistances other times is contradiction enough, when your explanation is something inferred with zero implication of it in the text.

 

[Malox1696]

Them not displaying those resistances other times is contradiction enough, when your explanation is something inferred with zero implication of it in the text.

?????