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To Aru Magic Gods should resist all their own abilities?
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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So wait, instead of being able to resist all the different types of hax mentioned in the OP, is it being proposed that they just be resistant to magic?
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"Prove that a character doesn't have this ability"TIHYDDWBE said:
You're asking the impossible, the burden of proof is on you to say when that resistance is shown.
All I am saying is that "There is not a time where they have shown that resistance." I am specifically not saying "There have been times where they were vulnerable to those abilities."
I think the better inference from "Overpowered characters can't beat each other despite their overpowered abilities" is PIS when there's no implication of resistance. If we disagree, then we just disagree on this fundamental point, and no arguing back and forth will resolve it.
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That medaka scenario is irrelevant. Neph first act against WR is to use full power from the start. And you expect us to believe she been fighting since forever and has never tried this...?
Is it this hard to believe characters with equal capacity and the same abilities who fight endlessly and explicitly can't overcome or defeat one another merely resist each other's generic abilities?
Is it this hard to believe characters with equal capacity and the same abilities who fight endlessly and explicitly can't overcome or defeat one another merely resist each other's generic abilities?
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you are making the claim of PIS so I'm waiting to see what instance in the story makes you believe so. as I'm sure you understand PIS stands for plot induced stupidity, so you must have some idea of the plot to make such a claim and why this is completely and utterly nonsense storywise.
or maybe theres a simpler explanation. they can't kill eachother because they resist their own powers. huh.
or maybe theres a simpler explanation. they can't kill eachother because they resist their own powers. huh.
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"Prove that a character doesn't have this ability"
You're asking the impossible, the burden of proof is on you to say when that resistance is shown.
All I am saying is that "There is not a time where they have shown that resistance." I am specifically not saying "There have been times where they were vulnerable to those abilities."
I think the better inference from "Overpowered characters can't beat each other despite their overpowered abilities" is PIS when there's no implication of resistance. If we disagree, then we just disagree on this fundamental point, and no arguing back and forth will resolve it.
Nah it's own you. Magic gods having phase magic which whould be able to one shot each other with yet they can't goes well with the context of them being able ot resist each other and fighting each other for eternity.
Again, Chimera can mind and souls haxx just by merely looking at her but the other magic gods suffers no such problem and you are basically saying they magically can resist only this specific haxx
Yet you call PIS on it cuz "muh other verse which is filled with PIS" says otherwise. Medaka box is a parody on its own
You're asking the impossible, the burden of proof is on you to say when that resistance is shown.
All I am saying is that "There is not a time where they have shown that resistance." I am specifically not saying "There have been times where they were vulnerable to those abilities."
I think the better inference from "Overpowered characters can't beat each other despite their overpowered abilities" is PIS when there's no implication of resistance. If we disagree, then we just disagree on this fundamental point, and no arguing back and forth will resolve it.
Nah it's own you. Magic gods having phase magic which whould be able to one shot each other with yet they can't goes well with the context of them being able ot resist each other and fighting each other for eternity.
Again, Chimera can mind and souls haxx just by merely looking at her but the other magic gods suffers no such problem and you are basically saying they magically can resist only this specific haxx
Yet you call PIS on it cuz "muh other verse which is filled with PIS" says otherwise. Medaka box is a parody on its own
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Just saying, Burden of Proof applies when a claim is being made. We supported our claim with quotes, logic, and reasoning so now the burden of proof falls upon you who claims the opposite against our case. You have to prove why they aren't resistant now.
I'd like to add that there's a lot of logic fallacies going on here regarding proof. We don't need it to be 100% explicitly stated if the logic is implied and within the text contextually. It's ignorance at that point, if I can be blunt, to state that "because it's not stated, therefor it's not true!".
Context matters, and we know contextually that no matter what they tossed at eachother, they'd just stalemate. It can be inferred through logic that they can't circumvent eachother, harm eachother, or kill eachother because of this. To add to this, High Priest was so assured of himself that Magic Gods were devoid of the idea of dying BECAUSE they are incappable of harming eachother by such means.
I'd like to add that there's a lot of logic fallacies going on here regarding proof. We don't need it to be 100% explicitly stated if the logic is implied and within the text contextually. It's ignorance at that point, if I can be blunt, to state that "because it's not stated, therefor it's not true!".
Context matters, and we know contextually that no matter what they tossed at eachother, they'd just stalemate. It can be inferred through logic that they can't circumvent eachother, harm eachother, or kill eachother because of this. To add to this, High Priest was so assured of himself that Magic Gods were devoid of the idea of dying BECAUSE they are incappable of harming eachother by such means.
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Well yes some of them showed some resistances, when Othinus did her shenanigans (destroy universe, control everyone ,turn back time , rewrite fate, etc) they were already unaffected , the obvious reason is they were outside of the phases but they would still be affected by time and fate manipulation, then they shown resistance to both mind and soul later even in nerfed forms
and again the PIS argument is stupid, after they got the chance to go all out they immediately did against each others (although they got nerfed hard at that point)
and again the PIS argument is stupid, after they got the chance to go all out they immediately did against each others (although they got nerfed hard at that point)
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- Thread starter
- #51
Thanks @ everyone that responded on my request. To Aru CRTs are difficult these days so I really appreciate the input.
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I also don't agree with giving them all those resistances without explicit feats.
Powerful characters fighting each other and not using hax they could be using happens all the time in fiction, so I don't think two characters stalemating each other offscreen/offpanel/offpage should be enough evidence for giving resistances of this level unless the specific resistance is obvious (For example, if someone is said to be capable of trading blows with a character that automatically removes the souls of anyone x meters away from them, soul resistance should be the obvious assumption).
This even happens in Index. Othinus has access to her reality warper powers in her 50/50 form, they are just unreliable like the rest of her actions and have good chances of hurting her with recoils and failures. However, Ollerus and Fiamma manage to stalemate her until she fleed, and we only saw the beginning of that fight. Should we give those two these resistances as well, just because it's possible she tried reality warping them at some point in the fight?
Trying to bring up Chimera's beauty into this makes no sense, because not only is her beauty unrelated to Phase powers, the Magic Gods were explicitly shown to not be affected by it in a scene, so unlike these claims it has an actual resistance feat. Especifically, for Magic Gods being able to comprehend and process things outside a human's senses that would otherwise harm them, which is why they aren't affected by Chimera's beauty or why they can also seemingly interact normally with the Forgotten God. I personally think that giving them mind/soul resistance for this makes little sense given the mechanics of the ability, but to each their own, and it was accepted by everyone already.
With the quotes presented so far, it could possibly be a resistance. It could also possibly be that Magic Gods reality warping powers cannot reality warp other magic gods away, for example, because their power is not strong enough to do so, just like Othinus could not simply reality warp IB away or undo phase shifts with her own power. It could perfectly be a limitation of their powers and not a resistance inherent to them, giving that all those quotes essentially tell us just one fact: "Magic Gods don't bother fighting each other because it would likely end up irrevocably distorting destiny and destroying the world in a pointless fight".
We also saw when Nephthys using her Phase Manipulation powers to try and crush Kakeru Kamisato that there's a lag between a Magic God Phase being created and embeded/layered over the world, so it can be countered and destroyed before the effects actually apply in the world.
Toaru Majutsu no Index New Testament 13 Epilogue
She did not wait any longer.
She realized if she did, she would give in to the joy instead of the fear and she would give herself over to the temptation.
She released her power as a Magic God.
She was surrounded by the deafening sound of thousands of insect wings scraping together. In an instant, her brown silhouette blurred. Her divinity had been created based on the crying woman who was paid to take part in funerals. In this case in particular, that referred to the thousands or tens of thousands of servants who were buried alive in the pyramid for the pharaoh's burial.
That made Nephthys different from the other Magic Gods. The others had thoroughly honed their powers as an individual, but she had specialized her power as something that could be separated, split apart, cut away, and swapped out.
In other words, she held it in reserve.
Even after being hit by Aleister's weakening spell, she still had enough power to swap out the phase just once.
(Embed it.)
She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.
(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…)
The voice of her heart was cut off.
She heard a tremendous explosion of sound and her phase was crushed.
"Wha-?"
It was squeezed and crushed.
"…Ah…?"
To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage, but this was something else entirely. That did not explain anything, but it was the only way of expressing it. Nephthys froze in place when she saw it and the boy simply clenched his right hand and opened it once more. It almost looked like he was giving her a greeting.
In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power.
Given that all the haxes argued about come from a Magic God's Phase manipulation powers, that these Phase manipulation powers might not necessarily apply instantly over the world, and that Magic Gods can pick and choose how they affect Phases so they have an awareness of Phases, I think the safest assumption to make here given the lack of actual resistance feats is that, just like Kakeru, a Magic God fighting with another Magic God can likely counter Phase manipulation from each other. This would possibly make fighting each other a pointless slap fight occasionally interrupted by some magic attack not derived from their Phase powers, so nothing that would ever solve any dispute and thus would force them to resort to talking things out, leading to the creation of Gremlin.
Powerful characters fighting each other and not using hax they could be using happens all the time in fiction, so I don't think two characters stalemating each other offscreen/offpanel/offpage should be enough evidence for giving resistances of this level unless the specific resistance is obvious (For example, if someone is said to be capable of trading blows with a character that automatically removes the souls of anyone x meters away from them, soul resistance should be the obvious assumption).
This even happens in Index. Othinus has access to her reality warper powers in her 50/50 form, they are just unreliable like the rest of her actions and have good chances of hurting her with recoils and failures. However, Ollerus and Fiamma manage to stalemate her until she fleed, and we only saw the beginning of that fight. Should we give those two these resistances as well, just because it's possible she tried reality warping them at some point in the fight?
Trying to bring up Chimera's beauty into this makes no sense, because not only is her beauty unrelated to Phase powers, the Magic Gods were explicitly shown to not be affected by it in a scene, so unlike these claims it has an actual resistance feat. Especifically, for Magic Gods being able to comprehend and process things outside a human's senses that would otherwise harm them, which is why they aren't affected by Chimera's beauty or why they can also seemingly interact normally with the Forgotten God. I personally think that giving them mind/soul resistance for this makes little sense given the mechanics of the ability, but to each their own, and it was accepted by everyone already.
With the quotes presented so far, it could possibly be a resistance. It could also possibly be that Magic Gods reality warping powers cannot reality warp other magic gods away, for example, because their power is not strong enough to do so, just like Othinus could not simply reality warp IB away or undo phase shifts with her own power. It could perfectly be a limitation of their powers and not a resistance inherent to them, giving that all those quotes essentially tell us just one fact: "Magic Gods don't bother fighting each other because it would likely end up irrevocably distorting destiny and destroying the world in a pointless fight".
We also saw when Nephthys using her Phase Manipulation powers to try and crush Kakeru Kamisato that there's a lag between a Magic God Phase being created and embeded/layered over the world, so it can be countered and destroyed before the effects actually apply in the world.
Toaru Majutsu no Index New Testament 13 Epilogue
She did not wait any longer.
She realized if she did, she would give in to the joy instead of the fear and she would give herself over to the temptation.
She released her power as a Magic God.
She was surrounded by the deafening sound of thousands of insect wings scraping together. In an instant, her brown silhouette blurred. Her divinity had been created based on the crying woman who was paid to take part in funerals. In this case in particular, that referred to the thousands or tens of thousands of servants who were buried alive in the pyramid for the pharaoh's burial.
That made Nephthys different from the other Magic Gods. The others had thoroughly honed their powers as an individual, but she had specialized her power as something that could be separated, split apart, cut away, and swapped out.
In other words, she held it in reserve.
Even after being hit by Aleister's weakening spell, she still had enough power to swap out the phase just once.
(Embed it.)
She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god.
(Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…)
The voice of her heart was cut off.
She heard a tremendous explosion of sound and her phase was crushed.
"Wha-?"
It was squeezed and crushed.
"…Ah…?"
To a third party, it may have looked like the entire scene wavered like a mirage, but this was something else entirely. That did not explain anything, but it was the only way of expressing it. Nephthys froze in place when she saw it and the boy simply clenched his right hand and opened it once more. It almost looked like he was giving her a greeting.
In other words, he could reject and kill even a Magic God using her full power.
Given that all the haxes argued about come from a Magic God's Phase manipulation powers, that these Phase manipulation powers might not necessarily apply instantly over the world, and that Magic Gods can pick and choose how they affect Phases so they have an awareness of Phases, I think the safest assumption to make here given the lack of actual resistance feats is that, just like Kakeru, a Magic God fighting with another Magic God can likely counter Phase manipulation from each other. This would possibly make fighting each other a pointless slap fight occasionally interrupted by some magic attack not derived from their Phase powers, so nothing that would ever solve any dispute and thus would force them to resort to talking things out, leading to the creation of Gremlin.
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You believe the 100% True Magic Gods fought each other endlessly and decided nothing could come out of a fight against each other without even resorting to the basic phase magic every Magic God has? Magic Gods have passive powers too as well...LazyHunter said:
Othinus herself states a fight between 50/50 and Ollerus can end in nothing but a stalemate due to the probabality manip and their Magic God properties. We also have the fact Othinus is being conservative with using her full power for obvious reasons, why would we give them resistences to all Magic God powers in this case knowing this information?LazyHunter said:
"Currently, when I face him, it always ends in a tie. That's just how things are set up. I will need to do something about him too at some point."
You dont think them showing resistence to something is enough evidence to give them reistences? Regardless I agree, we are just discussing general Magic God abilties.LazyHunter said:
If they cant warp other Magic Gods away then its a resistence. We are talking about 100% True Magic Gods here not their nerfed form. Why wouldnt their power be strong enough to warp away someone with no reistences when they can manipulate the entire setting, your IB argument makes no sense considering we dont know the true nature or upper limits of that power and she can warp it away its just that it would re manifest in her. If there was a limitation like this Kamachi would obviously tell us. When can't 100% Othinus not undo her own phase changes, the point was she coudlnt recall her old world? The quotes clearly say Magic Gods have fought, they also say they passively distort fate and destiny without doing anything.LazyHunter said:
"Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed."
"There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods."
You are using nerfed Nephthys, like I agreed with above using nerfed MG's or Chimera's non MG related resistences for this argument makes no sense. Othinus created phases instantaneously with a thought. Your argument only makes sense if you think 100% Othinus is superior to Full Power Nephthys.LazyHunter said:
Like above this is only refering to 100% True Gremlin. This argument leads to this ridiculous scenario. Pasted from above. VLazyHunter said:
The idea that the only thing stopping high priest, who can warp the setting with just a thought, from taking out all other magic gods and achieving his personal goal is the fact each individual god counter warps at the same instant high preist does to prevent themselves from being warped out of existence as they have no resistances. And they have just repeated this chain ad infinitum since the beginning of time more believable than a MG merely resisting phase magic, the generic ability all MG's possess?
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Strong summed it up. Also the example you used Lazy is irrelevant as you're comparing Nerfed Neph to Full Power MG status. Neph had a specific parameter that allowed her to burn only one Phase distortion due to the way her legend and body is made up of in their nerfed state but required lag to do so. When Othinus lifts her Lance and repaints the world, it happens instantaneously. Did you forget about NT9? I'm sorry, but everything you just said is so wrong.
I'd also like to point out your first paragraph Lazy. Are you implying that in the thousands, to hundreds of thousands, to god knows how many years that they never once tried their Time manip, Fate hax, etc on eachother? That's a bit silly to assume they never once went that far against eachother. You have to keep in mind they have been fighting for god knows how long, causing Sparks and what not because of it in the World.
I'd also like to point out your first paragraph Lazy. Are you implying that in the thousands, to hundreds of thousands, to god knows how many years that they never once tried their Time manip, Fate hax, etc on eachother? That's a bit silly to assume they never once went that far against eachother. You have to keep in mind they have been fighting for god knows how long, causing Sparks and what not because of it in the World.
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it does not have to be resistance, as along as it's specified that they can counter those abilities with their own passively or non , like u are saying, that would already be enough
this argument was initially opened cause some people in a thread assumed u can just low lvl mind control them cause the profile does not explain
btw the neph phase change time lag is a very bad example as it's literally the only one we had time lag and was from a heavily nerfed mg (it's like saying, goku when had hearth attack couldn't even stand up so goku at his most powerful form < planet gravity)
this argument was initially opened cause some people in a thread assumed u can just low lvl mind control them cause the profile does not explain
btw the neph phase change time lag is a very bad example as it's literally the only one we had time lag and was from a heavily nerfed mg (it's like saying, goku when had hearth attack couldn't even stand up so goku at his most powerful form < planet gravity)
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Narration explicitly says Kakeru destroying Nephthys Phase is evidence of him being able to reject a full power Magic God. Nepthys' whole deal is that due to her special constitution as a Magic God she could still use her Phase Manipulation powers 1 more time before losing them completely like the others. You are the ones that need evidence proving that use was not full power and that's the reason why there was lag when the text says it was full power. This is simply evidence that Phase Manipulation powers can be countered before their effects apply, which debunks the entire argument that's resistances are a must have if they fight each other without stomping each other. It's possible that if Touma knew how he could have countered Othinus powers before they were applied like Kakeru did with Nephthys, as IB can undo Phase shifts, but he didn't know how how. Also, the only outward sign Nepthys' Phase powers left was the world around her and Kakeru suddenly shimmering like a mirage when it was destroyed and the sound she made when she accesed her power using her special body. We know that thing was her using Phase manipulation because the narration was also describing her inner thoughts and explaining what she's doing. Meanwhile NT9 has things practically only from Touma's viewpoint, so obviously to him the Phases can be things that happen instantly with no warning as he's not aware of them. I have to point out that in NT8, for example, the illustratio shows the world breaking around Touma and Othinus when she raises the spear in preparation to destroy it. The narration obviously doesn't describe this because Touma at the moment was explicitly freaking out and not paying attention to his surroundings except for Othinus and Gungnir.
New Testament 8 Epilogue
He shouted, screamed, and cried out.
Finally, Kamijou Touma was freed from the bonds keeping him frozen in place.
Without paying any attention to his surroundings, he ran so he could get as close as possible to Magic God Othinus. She stood atop the towering passenger ship, so there was no way the boy's legs could have brought him to her. However, he was afraid his mind would collapse if he did not oppose her in some way.
And…
Magic God Othinus lightly spun the lance around in one hand and pointed its tip toward the heavens.
But that could be illustrators taking some liberties, it happens with light novels sometimes. So, here's Touma watching a Phase change happening in real time.
New Testament 9 Chapter 5 Part 3
"A Magic God does not need to do anything directly to crush a single kid. Have you forgotten? A Magic God is one who can manipulate anything in the world using magic. Everything is under my control. Any annoying bit of work can be left to my pawns."
It glowed.
The spear gave off light in that world filled with nothing but darkness.
This was a clear change.
Or perhaps it was a sign of creation.
"What are you doing?"
"I already told you. I am breaking you mentally."
Magic God Othinus's tone was perfectly casual.
She looked at him as if watching a death row inmate being carried along the conveyer belt of a fully automated execution device.
"I will take that which you wanted to protect, the places you wanted to return to, the faces you wanted to see once more, and everything else. I will fundamentally overturn them and destroy your recognition of them. I will show you the insignificance of everything you have gained in your fifteen or so years of life."
As soon as she finished speaking, the entire world was dyed white.
It was not that his vision was being filled with bright light. He was not being blinded. The empty world of darkness was now shining. It was changing. Starting from the lance, everything was obeying the Magic God's will.
Something was happening.
And in other times in the same novel it happens instantly. So it can happen instantly, or it might not, because in the end Index is a work of fiction, so this happens in the way that it suits the plot better. When Toumas has to be made aware that Othinus is changing the world we can see her prepare to do so and how the process starts. When it's not, it happens from one line to the next, like this:
As if interrupting or as if standing up from a theatre seat while watching a boring comedy, Othinus snapped her fingers.
The world vanished.
Kamijou Touma stood in a world where the ground, the sky, and beyond the horizon were all black.
So, while the fact is that Phase Shifts can be instant, they can also not be, depends on what fits the scene better. Which doesn't change the fact that they can be countered before they are applied to the world, which is the argument I'm trying to make.
Yeah, I have no evidence of the Magic Gods not using their Phase powers on another Magic Gods and being stopped by resistances. Just like you have no evidence those resistances exist. That's why my post says the resistance angle it's a possibility. However, unlike you, I have proof that Phase Manipulation powers can be countered before they apply to the world without needing to have resistance to them, and the basic logic that a being with Phase Manipulation powers of their own can likely replicate the same feat. Countering the Phase Manipulation that is the source of the Magic God's reality warping powers would mean that the effects of said Phase Manipulation do not apply, therefore, no resistance is needed to fight a Magic God if you have the same power.
Yes, Othinus says that her previous fights with Ollerus have ended up in ties because that's the way things are set up. She also believes herself capable of killing him if she wanted to, and Ollerus himself notes he loses in power and wins in stability. Not that we know anything about what exactly Ollerus gets of "being close to a Magic God" besides being a more powerful magician, since he doesn't demonstrate any Phase powers or the like.
New Testament 4 Profound Destruction. ´¥Ö9´¥å1b´¢Â´¢╣r´¢╗991´¥Å
"I am an impure example that stopped at the point where I 'should have' become a Magic God. In other words, I lose to you in overall power, but I am freed from that 50/50 dilemma. After all, I am imperfect. Unlike your perfect balance, my odds of victory have a deviation."
"And you think that will let you win?"
"No, I already told you I can't. If I could, I would have killed you long ago," said the young man before smiling and continuing. "But that doesn't mean I don't have an idea as to how to push you back just a bit. It's all thanks to how you so carelessly crushed Kamijou Touma's right hand."
[...]
Someone got in her way.
For Othinus, the number of people who could do that was quite limited.
"Did the failure…Did Ollerus appear?"
"Currently, when I face him, it always ends in a tie. That's just how things are set up. I will need to do something about him too at some point."
Her one weakness.
A threat greater than Imagine Breaker.
However, Othinus's expression did not change as she spoke. For her, it was likely similar to looking at a puzzle she already knew how to solve. She did not need to think about it. She only had more work that required physical exertion like cleaning a messy room.
New Testament 8 Epilogue
"Why are you here? You have risked your life for this plan, so I doubt that was it. If it was, I will kill you right this instant and return to producing the lance. I am a god of magic that can bend the laws of life and death to help me in my fight. Did you think someone's life or death would be enough to stop my plan?"
"I'm glad you didn't see through my plan all at once. That puts my mind at ease. It looks like your infinite possibilities sent your power in the negative direction."
"I can only add humans to the ranks of my Einherjar," muttered the girl in disappointment. "I have no way of sending a god to join them. I will truly obliterate you. You don't mind, do you?"
Bringing up Chimera's beauty makes no sense, because that resistance has nothing to do with Phase Manipulation. Therefore, people trying to bring her up to support these resistance claims by saying "Magic Gods have resistance feats to this thing, therefore it's a fair to assume they have these unrelated resistances" are using a faulty argument.
@Malox1696
I have no issue noting in the page that they can use their reality warping powers to counter reality warping or even other types of hax if they get the chance to counter them, although I think we naturallly assume reality warpers can fight off reality warpers of the same level, unless their feats contradict this. But that's not the same as a resistance, which is what's being claimed here by most of the people arguing for it.
New Testament 8 Epilogue
He shouted, screamed, and cried out.
Finally, Kamijou Touma was freed from the bonds keeping him frozen in place.
Without paying any attention to his surroundings, he ran so he could get as close as possible to Magic God Othinus. She stood atop the towering passenger ship, so there was no way the boy's legs could have brought him to her. However, he was afraid his mind would collapse if he did not oppose her in some way.
And…
Magic God Othinus lightly spun the lance around in one hand and pointed its tip toward the heavens.
But that could be illustrators taking some liberties, it happens with light novels sometimes. So, here's Touma watching a Phase change happening in real time.
New Testament 9 Chapter 5 Part 3
"A Magic God does not need to do anything directly to crush a single kid. Have you forgotten? A Magic God is one who can manipulate anything in the world using magic. Everything is under my control. Any annoying bit of work can be left to my pawns."
It glowed.
The spear gave off light in that world filled with nothing but darkness.
This was a clear change.
Or perhaps it was a sign of creation.
"What are you doing?"
"I already told you. I am breaking you mentally."
Magic God Othinus's tone was perfectly casual.
She looked at him as if watching a death row inmate being carried along the conveyer belt of a fully automated execution device.
"I will take that which you wanted to protect, the places you wanted to return to, the faces you wanted to see once more, and everything else. I will fundamentally overturn them and destroy your recognition of them. I will show you the insignificance of everything you have gained in your fifteen or so years of life."
As soon as she finished speaking, the entire world was dyed white.
It was not that his vision was being filled with bright light. He was not being blinded. The empty world of darkness was now shining. It was changing. Starting from the lance, everything was obeying the Magic God's will.
Something was happening.
And in other times in the same novel it happens instantly. So it can happen instantly, or it might not, because in the end Index is a work of fiction, so this happens in the way that it suits the plot better. When Toumas has to be made aware that Othinus is changing the world we can see her prepare to do so and how the process starts. When it's not, it happens from one line to the next, like this:
As if interrupting or as if standing up from a theatre seat while watching a boring comedy, Othinus snapped her fingers.
The world vanished.
Kamijou Touma stood in a world where the ground, the sky, and beyond the horizon were all black.
So, while the fact is that Phase Shifts can be instant, they can also not be, depends on what fits the scene better. Which doesn't change the fact that they can be countered before they are applied to the world, which is the argument I'm trying to make.
Yeah, I have no evidence of the Magic Gods not using their Phase powers on another Magic Gods and being stopped by resistances. Just like you have no evidence those resistances exist. That's why my post says the resistance angle it's a possibility. However, unlike you, I have proof that Phase Manipulation powers can be countered before they apply to the world without needing to have resistance to them, and the basic logic that a being with Phase Manipulation powers of their own can likely replicate the same feat. Countering the Phase Manipulation that is the source of the Magic God's reality warping powers would mean that the effects of said Phase Manipulation do not apply, therefore, no resistance is needed to fight a Magic God if you have the same power.
Yes, Othinus says that her previous fights with Ollerus have ended up in ties because that's the way things are set up. She also believes herself capable of killing him if she wanted to, and Ollerus himself notes he loses in power and wins in stability. Not that we know anything about what exactly Ollerus gets of "being close to a Magic God" besides being a more powerful magician, since he doesn't demonstrate any Phase powers or the like.
New Testament 4 Profound Destruction. ´¥Ö9´¥å1b´¢Â´¢╣r´¢╗991´¥Å
"I am an impure example that stopped at the point where I 'should have' become a Magic God. In other words, I lose to you in overall power, but I am freed from that 50/50 dilemma. After all, I am imperfect. Unlike your perfect balance, my odds of victory have a deviation."
"And you think that will let you win?"
"No, I already told you I can't. If I could, I would have killed you long ago," said the young man before smiling and continuing. "But that doesn't mean I don't have an idea as to how to push you back just a bit. It's all thanks to how you so carelessly crushed Kamijou Touma's right hand."
[...]
Someone got in her way.
For Othinus, the number of people who could do that was quite limited.
"Did the failure…Did Ollerus appear?"
"Currently, when I face him, it always ends in a tie. That's just how things are set up. I will need to do something about him too at some point."
Her one weakness.
A threat greater than Imagine Breaker.
However, Othinus's expression did not change as she spoke. For her, it was likely similar to looking at a puzzle she already knew how to solve. She did not need to think about it. She only had more work that required physical exertion like cleaning a messy room.
New Testament 8 Epilogue
"Why are you here? You have risked your life for this plan, so I doubt that was it. If it was, I will kill you right this instant and return to producing the lance. I am a god of magic that can bend the laws of life and death to help me in my fight. Did you think someone's life or death would be enough to stop my plan?"
"I'm glad you didn't see through my plan all at once. That puts my mind at ease. It looks like your infinite possibilities sent your power in the negative direction."
"I can only add humans to the ranks of my Einherjar," muttered the girl in disappointment. "I have no way of sending a god to join them. I will truly obliterate you. You don't mind, do you?"
Bringing up Chimera's beauty makes no sense, because that resistance has nothing to do with Phase Manipulation. Therefore, people trying to bring her up to support these resistance claims by saying "Magic Gods have resistance feats to this thing, therefore it's a fair to assume they have these unrelated resistances" are using a faulty argument.
@Malox1696
I have no issue noting in the page that they can use their reality warping powers to counter reality warping or even other types of hax if they get the chance to counter them, although I think we naturallly assume reality warpers can fight off reality warpers of the same level, unless their feats contradict this. But that's not the same as a resistance, which is what's being claimed here by most of the people arguing for it.
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NT12 "If that man truly was a full-power Magic God, he could remake the world even faster than snapping his fingers."
@Lazy True Magic Gods can phase manipulate instantly this is just literal fact. And if you are really doubting it...
"This magic automatically adjusted position and distance so he only had to swing his arm or leg to land a clean hit. This spell produced the conditions needed for none of his opponent's attacks to reach him and for only him to attack. A win or a draw were the only options. Almighty Thor could always avoid defeat, so not even Academy City's #1 Level 5 could kill him. Without the ability to destroy and remake the entire world in an instant as Magic God Othinus had done, he could not be killed."
"It was true that 100% Almighty Thor would likely be killed in an instant if he faced 100% Magic God Othinus. Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall."
Othinus's can't be beaten by Thor and he would be instantly defeated. Othinus's reality warping can destroy and recreate in an instant and is faster than Almighty Thor which in of itself is an instant attack. Now, You using Nephs nerfed state attempting to use her full power once is a bad argument, especially when shes struggling to even use it due to the effects of World Rejector causing conflicting emotions. While she's taking forever to phase change, thus describing her inner thoughts. World Rejector merely crushes it in a incomplete state before her though process ends and even before she swaps it out. You can tell because Kamisato isn't instantly erased and the enviorment looks like a indeterminate mirage.
"(Embed it.) She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god. (Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…) The voice of her heart was cut off."
This issue is irrelevant to 100% True Magic Gods who can rather achieve this with a thought. It explicitly says Touma cant physically counter Othinus's phase manipulation by using Imagine Breaker. Imagine Breaker can ony be used to destroy phases when wielded by Othinus. Since they are applied instantly and the scope is too great.
"It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell."
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"You should be able to do it."
In other words, this was a fight to see which card Magic God Othinus would choose. Or perhaps it was the ultimate presentation to convince this blonde-haired, green-eyed girl which card she should choose.
"I don't know how to use this thing. Maybe not even the professional magicians who have completely immersed themselves in this field of magic know. But you should be able to do it. You stand at the peak of magic! You've risen to a position with the title of god! You have to have some idea how to repair the world using this reference point!!"
Visuals don't mean much. Gungnir visually collapases phases with its power so ofc you will see the crack effect when it manipulates phases but the world is already destroyed instantly. Othinus manipualtes phases in many different ways, when she does it with a thought the world is merely ended there's no counter to that without a reistence. w/Gungnir is thrown you see the actual phases crushed up and there is a physical object(lance) that can be countered.
@Lazy True Magic Gods can phase manipulate instantly this is just literal fact. And if you are really doubting it...
"This magic automatically adjusted position and distance so he only had to swing his arm or leg to land a clean hit. This spell produced the conditions needed for none of his opponent's attacks to reach him and for only him to attack. A win or a draw were the only options. Almighty Thor could always avoid defeat, so not even Academy City's #1 Level 5 could kill him. Without the ability to destroy and remake the entire world in an instant as Magic God Othinus had done, he could not be killed."
"It was true that 100% Almighty Thor would likely be killed in an instant if he faced 100% Magic God Othinus. Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall."
Othinus's can't be beaten by Thor and he would be instantly defeated. Othinus's reality warping can destroy and recreate in an instant and is faster than Almighty Thor which in of itself is an instant attack. Now, You using Nephs nerfed state attempting to use her full power once is a bad argument, especially when shes struggling to even use it due to the effects of World Rejector causing conflicting emotions. While she's taking forever to phase change, thus describing her inner thoughts. World Rejector merely crushes it in a incomplete state before her though process ends and even before she swaps it out. You can tell because Kamisato isn't instantly erased and the enviorment looks like a indeterminate mirage.
"(Embed it.) She bit her lip while aware she was at the disadvantage even as a god. (Embed the phase, change the world, and use that power to crush-…) The voice of her heart was cut off."
This issue is irrelevant to 100% True Magic Gods who can rather achieve this with a thought. It explicitly says Touma cant physically counter Othinus's phase manipulation by using Imagine Breaker. Imagine Breaker can ony be used to destroy phases when wielded by Othinus. Since they are applied instantly and the scope is too great.
"It seemed the filters Othinus spoke of were existences or concepts identical to heaven or hell. He was unsure if he could destroy something so massive. In fact, he could not even imagine what kind of phenomenon would be produced if he touched heaven or hell."
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"You should be able to do it."
In other words, this was a fight to see which card Magic God Othinus would choose. Or perhaps it was the ultimate presentation to convince this blonde-haired, green-eyed girl which card she should choose.
"I don't know how to use this thing. Maybe not even the professional magicians who have completely immersed themselves in this field of magic know. But you should be able to do it. You stand at the peak of magic! You've risen to a position with the title of god! You have to have some idea how to repair the world using this reference point!!"
Visuals don't mean much. Gungnir visually collapases phases with its power so ofc you will see the crack effect when it manipulates phases but the world is already destroyed instantly. Othinus manipualtes phases in many different ways, when she does it with a thought the world is merely ended there's no counter to that without a reistence. w/Gungnir is thrown you see the actual phases crushed up and there is a physical object(lance) that can be countered.
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Phase Magic is always instantaneous for Peak MG's as it's imposed by their thoughts and Will.. You're LITERALLY arguing a form that forces down their parameters and sealing most of their arsenal by their enemy, Aleister, and comparing their capacity to their full power peak forms. It's lucidrous. Strong proved there's no time lag, and if even at that, it's impossibly to quick to react to if attacked from all sides or all MG's doing it at once against eachother.
I can't believe we even are having this conversation right now. That's like if you took a Fatigued Goku that was starving of food and punched a bad guy, then you scaled that bad guy to Goku's peak AP because they tanked it despite him being severly weakened before hand. Gross analogy, but it's a silly scenario for a silly argument. It's non-comparable. End of story. Even IF Phase Magic had Time Lag, that, again, also goes against the context of them fighting for countless of years. If such a thing was true, there'd be no such thing as a stalemate as one could up the other between time-lags.
Your logic is inherently flawed because of this context. One could even say that since Phase Magic is done through an MG's will and Thoughts, there was only time-lag in relation to Neph BECAUSE she was being drawn to World Rejector and was indecisive on what she wished to do, hence the delayed Phase reaction if you really want to look deeper. The honest answer is likely since it was a one-burn move and that's it, it requires too much effort on her part rather than the emotional context, but something to also consider.
I can't believe we even are having this conversation right now. That's like if you took a Fatigued Goku that was starving of food and punched a bad guy, then you scaled that bad guy to Goku's peak AP because they tanked it despite him being severly weakened before hand. Gross analogy, but it's a silly scenario for a silly argument. It's non-comparable. End of story. Even IF Phase Magic had Time Lag, that, again, also goes against the context of them fighting for countless of years. If such a thing was true, there'd be no such thing as a stalemate as one could up the other between time-lags.
Your logic is inherently flawed because of this context. One could even say that since Phase Magic is done through an MG's will and Thoughts, there was only time-lag in relation to Neph BECAUSE she was being drawn to World Rejector and was indecisive on what she wished to do, hence the delayed Phase reaction if you really want to look deeper. The honest answer is likely since it was a one-burn move and that's it, it requires too much effort on her part rather than the emotional context, but something to also consider.
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I still agree with the OP.
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Regarding the reaction theory: Even if it were absolutely instantanous... you guys realize that as characters with Immeasurable speed they could still react to that, right?
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Scenario: 10+ MG's with equal immesurable speed and no resistences. MG 1 uses phase manip the others react with immensurable speed then have to use phase manip to counter phase manip that has already been initated. Whose instant Phase manip hits first?
Agnaa
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MG 1 uses phase manip at time N.
Others realize that phase manip is being implemented at time N, and use their immeasurable speed to react to it before it's happened, placing a counter-manip at time N.
Time N arrives and both go off simultaneously, canceling each other out.
Others realize that phase manip is being implemented at time N, and use their immeasurable speed to react to it before it's happened, placing a counter-manip at time N.
Time N arrives and both go off simultaneously, canceling each other out.
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Hidden world doesn't have time and MG speed is equal. MG1 still acts before MG2-10. Besides if you're too fast for time then your movement in a place that has time would be undefinable. You wouldn't be able to say they can react before or after or whatever because it's just not something you can say anything about.
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How do the MG's react and act to a move that's already instantanous? How do you determine a sequence of events when everything is within an instant regardless of whether they can react to eachother or not when MG1 fired off the round. It'd still require an action when they realize, but that action can't happen because the round has already been fired.
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Sounds goodAgnaa said:
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Now hang on a moment. Does staff consensus overwrite the opinions of all other users below? Is that how this works? Usually when it comes to scenarios like this, it's important for the points to be debunked. All our scenarios and reasoning haven't been debunked yet or fully addressed. It'd be helpful if the staff could explain their reasoning first for agreeing against the revision.
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The opinion of a person is only as valueable as they are able to support them with reasoning. Frankly, I don't think the Staff have made anything sound nor consisive to debunk the argument aside from agreeing with DT 'for reasons' and agreeing simply because it's not explicitly stated, which is a logic fallacy.
I mean no offense by this, but it's helpful to explain why you agree or disagree with something. Otherwise your word doesn't hold much water.
I mean no offense by this, but it's helpful to explain why you agree or disagree with something. Otherwise your word doesn't hold much water.
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The reasoning primarily seems to be; "All these Magic Gods are super powerful and would one-shot each other with hax if they could. Since they don't they all must be resistant to all types of hax shown by themselves".
Without objective evidence or a solid statement, this kind of reasoning doesn't do a lot to convince me. Characters not using extremely powerful abilities when they really should is common in fiction.
Without objective evidence or a solid statement, this kind of reasoning doesn't do a lot to convince me. Characters not using extremely powerful abilities when they really should is common in fiction.
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Again, you're missing the point that they've been fighting for Eons. This isn't just simply a one-off fight that happened once, it has been ongoing for a millenia, maybe more. It's silly to think 'oh they probably never used their extremely powerful abilities!' when the first thing Neph uses against Kamisato, who, she deems a threat, is to bust out a Phase. It's extremely common for Magic Gods to use their **generic ability** which is Phase Magic if they can. That's a logic fallacy again, as the context provides enough proof.Damage3245 said:
Please do not ignore the context behind it, and you'll see the logic to the reasoning. If time hax could defeat an MG, it would've happened at least once, but they have never once been able to hurt eachother over the Eons.
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If that's the basis of the thread then I don't see where the problem is. We don't do that here. Resistances are only given if a character shows it on-screen or on-panel. Not even if it's implied, because there could be a number of unknown factors at work.Damage3245 said:
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That would normally make sense damage, if " extremely powerful abilities" wasn't their trademark ability they all possess. And they didn't declare themselves a winner is impossible.
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