Time + Space Manipulation Revision/Question

[ProfessorLord]

I've got a question that I'm not sure how to answer. Currently, we have the ability to stop time as time manipulation. If you have resistance to time manipulation, logic dictates you can resist time-stop.

My question is how is time AND space stop treated? As in stopping both time and space? An example of a character who can do so is Esdeath from Akame Ga Kill, her ability, Mahapadma, is explicitly stated to "freeze" time and space . (Despite this, she only has time manipulation on her profile) Is a character like DIO who has resistance to only time manipulation but not spatial manipulation able to function within and counteract this time-stop?

Furthermore, isn't all time-stops both space and time stop? Time and space are intertwined together, logic dictates that stopping one automatically stops the other, and so any character who has time manipulation via time-stop should also have spatial manipulation via time-stop, right?

Now this may be overthinking it a little, but let's go even deeper. How are characters able to see in stopped time? My best answer is that they're stopping everything except light, in which case, time is not being stopped, and it would just end up being molecular immobilizatio on everything within range except light? Of course it could all just end up being PIS.

So how does this all work?

 

[ProfessorLord]

kamehamebump

 

[Antvasima]

I am not the best person to evaluate this. Sorry.

 

[ProfessorLord]

this is real important i think, bump

 

[Promestein]

You're overthinking things. Nondescript stopping space here amounts for nothing more than time stopping in practice. We can't quantify it. At best she'll just get space manipulation and it wouldn't change things, no.

By that logic all time manipulation would qualify for spatial manipulation. We have to make a distinction because fiction does.

"Now this may be overthinking it a little, but let's go even deeper. How are characters able to see in stopped time?"

That's simply not taken into account. Saying that because people can see it's not time stop is like saying that because people can see they're not FTL.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Most my questions are answered I think, but do you think a character with time manipulation resistance would be able to resist Esdeath's time stop, seeing as how it's space and time?

Why can't all time manipulation qualify for spatial manipulation?

 

[Promestein]

Yes.

Because a distinction is made in fiction. Most time manipulators - take, for example, Kiritsugu Emiya - manipulate just time, and a distinction is made between them and those that can manipulate space. When it's said that they can manipulate both (like Sakuya Izayoi), they get both, but otherwise, we can't give them something they have not displayed.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Wouldn't you need resistance to spatial manipulation in addition to time manipulation in order to resist Esdeath's time stop?

The distinction is made in fiction because authors aren't always well versed or knowledgable. Through the physics that we apply to said fiction, wouldn't it grant time-stoppers "limited spatial manipulation through time stop" or something to that effect?

 

[Kepekley23]

Space already depends on time to move. So "stopping space and time" is just a redundant way of referring to your average time stop.

 

[Promestein]

No, because it hasn't been shown to manipulate space in any meaningful way; in practice, it's just a time stop.

What fiction displays and the trends it follows > real world physics in this context. We can't give someone something they haven't displayed when fiction makes a distinction.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What about a time stop that also has the same effect as Caster's spatial lock?

Individual effects, one stopping time, one locking down space.

Resistance to Time Stop wouldn't give you resistance to spatial lock

 

[Kepekley23]

What is this about "spatial lock"? Time is the reason why space moves. Stopping time amounts to stopping space, outright.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Fiction makes a distinction between the two.

And

What fiction displays and the trends it follows > real world physics in this context. We can't give someone something they haven't displayed when fiction makes a distinction.

Otherwise, resisting time stop now gives resistance to spatial manipulation.

 

[Kepekley23]

No, it does not. Not in this sense.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Resisting time stop does not give resistance to spatial manipulation though.

And saying "stopping time amounts to stopping space" is wrong. Stopping time also amounts to stopping matter, energy, physics, pretty much everything else bound by time, but we don't give resistance to matter, energy, physics, etc manipulation becase someone resists time stop.

 

[Kepekley23]

No, stopping time amounts to stopping space. Only the opposite isn't true. Saying otherwise makes literally no sense since time is why space can move.

 

[ProfessorLord]

It does in a sense. Like I said before, time and space are intertwined. That's why I think it should get limited resistance to spatial manipulation, not enough to defend against more potent spatial manipulation like portals, but enough to the point where a character can move through frozen space.

Stopping time does amount to stopping space though.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Stopping space as a logical byproduct of stopping time is different to outright stopping space directly, and resistance to one does not give resistance to the other

 

[Kepekley23]

It isn't a resistance to Spatial Manip. You could still be picked up and tossed around. It is just utterly redundant because stopping time and space is nothing beyond an average Time Stop.

 

[Kepekley23]

Never said nor implied it did.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Never said nor implied it did.

Was this ^ in response to this:

Stopping space as a logical byproduct of stopping time is different to outright stopping space directly, and resistance to one does not give resistance to the other

Because that is what Professor is saying.

 

[Kepekley23]

Yes it was.

 

[ProfessorLord]

Well wasn't I told that Esdeath's space-time stop wouldn't effect anyone whom only had resistance to time manipulation? So shouldn't this apply to all?

 

[Kepekley23]

Unless Esdeath stops time on a High 2-A scale whoever told you that is misunderstanding a few concepts.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Apart from a single statement, Esdeath's ability is never shown to affect space directly, rather it affects space as a byproduct of stopping time.

Which would not give resistance to spatial manipulation.

 

[ProfessorLord]

So straight downplay? It has shown the ability to affect space directly, problem is it looks like it's only the ability to affect time directly. It's explicitly stated to be both?

Also @Kepe

"Wouldn't you need resistance to spatial manipulation in addition to time manipulation in order to resist Esdeath's time stop? " - MY QUESTION

"No, because it hasn't been shown to manipulate space in any meaningful way; in practice, it's just a time stop." - PROMS ANSWER

So I guess he has that misunderstanding?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Wouldn't you need resistance to spatial manipulation in addition to time manipulation in order to resist Esdeath's time stop?

No, because it hasn't been shown to manipulate space in any meaningful way; in practice, it's just a time stop.

Apart from a single statement, Esdeath's ability is never shown to affect space directly, rather it affects space as a byproduct of stopping time.

Which would not give resistance to spatial manipulation.

 

[ProfessorLord]

I was just told this, like a minute ago:

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 wrote:
In the official volume there is a QnA between Wave and Esdeath, she says she freezes time and space itself in order to stop time.

If this is true, does this mean she can stop time and space? Source already confirmed it, now a in-character QnA is too.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's the same thing.

 

[ProfessorLord]

"Freezing time already accomplishes that effect, so no, it's just a fancy way of saying "time stop"

But it's explicitly said to not just freeze time, but space as well? The whole point of this thread is to discuss whether or not resistance to time stop would grant you resistance to space-time stop, not whether or not it was redundant. There's a litteral distinction between the two, isn't that what you said was needed a minute or two ago?

it's not the same thing stop saying that

 

[Kepekley23]

Freezing time and space is the exact same thing as freezing time. It's just a fancy way of saying it.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"space-time stop" is often just time stop in fiction. There's rarely a distinction made between the two, which is when we just treat it as time stop and say resisting time stop lets you resist this ability, but when there is a distinction between the two effects made, resisting both would be necessary

 

[ProfessorLord]

it achieves the same result =/= it's the same thing

???

 

[ProfessorLord]

esdeath clearly has made a distinction between stopping time and stopping time and space, both in source and in a QnA. would resisting both now be necessary?

 

[Kepekley23]

Yes it is. Space only moves because time flows. Unless you want to deny "Distance = Speed * Time" now.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Exactly

 

[ProfessorLord]

boiling it down to a formula is not a good argument.

esdeath stops time with her "frozen space and time" shit. this sets time to a pause, or 0. it sets speed to a 0 as well.

a character with resistance to time manipulation now breaks free, resetting his personal time to the normal.

unfortunately, said character has no way to manipulate his speed, even if he can do so for his time. his 'speed' is at 0. he is frozen within space.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Thing is, Esdeath's time stop is never treated like that. It's always just treated as a normal time stop, and the spatial aspect of it is mentioned once and never again.

That's different to an effect which is shown to work on both. In which case, then the example you provided would happen.

 

[ProfessorLord]

It is mentioned. She explicitly says she freezes space and time in order to stop time, which in itself acknowledges that she knows the difference between stopping just time, and stopping space and time. it's never mentioned again because she dies?

if you're acknowledging that stopping time and space at the same time is irrelevant because the space aspect is useless, then there is no such thing as space + time stop.

 

[Kepekley23]

He is frozen because time is stopped, which stops space because distance only holds meaning if time is set above 0. All time stops do the same.