Tiering System Revisions

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Now my main question is for Option 3... Exactly what does it mean to "transcend Outerversal hierarchies" ? Is this referring to transcending "baseline beyind all concepts of dimensional space-tine" in an quantifiable any degrees of infinite manner, or transcending them as they transcend mortals.. akin to the Outer Gods ? Because even in their versed they ahve their own hierarchies of power that sort of makes it seem impossible to escape "all hierarchies" .

Also... For Option 1... I'm not 100% sure how Proper Classes would translate well to tiers given their ability to transcend any set supposedly. Can someone simplify this perhaps ?

As for my decision, leaning towards Option 4

 

[Sera_EX]

That's not what I mea....never mind.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

 

[Pritti]

This is thread is 280 replies of arguing about a tier that's not even important in the grand scheme of things (especially when word on the street says that 1-A fights will be banned).

Everyone agrees with the higher dimensional stuff though. So analytically speaking, Option 2 seems to be the best solution here (or Option 4, whatever that is).

 

[Ultima_Reality]

or we just go with Option 5.

c a l c u l u s

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah let's do that

 

[Ayewale]

The proposal about area confuses me. Maybe it's because of the kinda horrifically bloasted wording, but isn't it essentially just 'rank things based off Area of Effect'?

 

[Pritti]

I love calculus.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If this thread has already been establishing that 1-A is totally quantifiable and not some glorified/sacred level beyond our mortal mind's comprehension to the extent that we cannot possibly figure out how powerful they are relative to eachother, then why would they be banned?

 

[Andytrenom]

Vs battles in general are bad, we are just starting with 1-A

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Thank you for the explanations. My apologies if I and others are being difficult.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Y'all know that getting rid of VS battles gets rid of most, if not a large chunk, of this wiki's activity right? To be frank, we wouldn't be where we are today without them. In addition, they informally function as a way to find issues with the character profiles, and I'd bet a large number of major revisions on this wiki wouldn't happen without the existence of VS threads. They also function as a way to gauge character power, in a way that the profiles lack the ability to in their current form.

Banning VS threads would be genuinely one of the worst decisions possible for this wiki as a whole. I, however, am not staff, so if you all happen to find a way that it would somehow help the growth of this wiki and the quality of the profiles, then by all means, Godspeed on your journey.

 

[Sera_EX]

Andy was just joking...

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If that is the case, then thank god. I hope anyone else who recommends the banning of VS threads will be joking as well.

 

[Maxnumb231]

If that is the case, then thank god. I hope anyone else who recommends the banning of VS threads will be joking as well.

1-A battles will get banned after the new tiering bcuz 1-A is so arbitrary high

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Actually, making 1-A better defined will make battles more feasible.

 

[Ayewale]

Y'all know that getting rid of VS battles gets rid of most, if not a large chunk, of this wiki's activity right? To be frank, we wouldn't be where we are today without them. In addition, they informally function as a way to find issues with the character profiles, and I'd bet a large number of major revisions on this wiki wouldn't happen without the existence of VS threads. They also function as a way to gauge character power, in a way that the profiles lack the ability to in their current form.
Banning VS threads would be genuinely one of the worst decisions possible for this wiki as a whole. I, however, am not staff, so if you all happen to find a way that it would somehow help the growth of this wiki and the quality of the profiles, then by all means, Godspeed on your journey.

Banning vsbattles from the vsbattles wiki would be bad? I had no idea!

 

[DontTalkDT]

I am in the middle of an exam phase and have very time to learn as is, so I will refrain on giving my opinions regarding ordinals and the other stuff for now.

Instead I wanted to propose a concrete option for how to formulate certain things. As usual this is a draft that is supposed to explain the idea and the exact formulations are up to debate.

For now this draft has no Tier 0 in the "all-encompassing characters who exist fully beyond the scope of the rest of the system"-sense that other proposed systems have. Reason is that I have the impression that such a ranking either runs into the "are tier 0 really all more powerful than the rest" problem or can not be properly proven like with the "questionably omnipotent"-version we had of tier 0.

However, if we decide to include such a tier it is obviously no problem to change my proposal in that regards.

Proposal
Definitio

Lower/Higher Level of Existence: A realm A is said to have a higher level of existence than a realm B, iff infinite power in realm B is an infinitesimal, or very small, amount of power in realm A.

A character powerful enough to affect realm A in a meaningful way is said to have power on a higher level of existence than B and on the level of existence of A.

Analogue a realm B is said to have a lower level of existence than A, iff A has a higher level of existence than B, and a character has power on a lower level of existence than A, if it can't meaningfully affect more than an infinitesimal part of A.

In this classifications the nature of infinite power is to be considered: Being many times as power, just more powerful or, usually, even infinite times more powerful than a character with infinite power in a realm, doesn't grant you power on a higher level of existence than it. If a fiction treats being finite times more powerful relevant to a higher level of existence, that is considered evidence against it actually being a higher level.

Generally whether one realm is on a higher level of existence than another is entirely dependent on how the fiction portrays their relative size, nature or, more generally speaking, the power necessary to destroy parts of them.

A typical example for a higher level of existence would be a realm A, relative to which a realm B appears as mere fiction. A then has a higher level of existence than B.

A typical example of power on a higher level of existence, would be characters that can destroy large higher dimensional spaces. These would usually have power on a higher level of existence, than characters who can only destroy spaces of lesser dimensionality.

For both of these examples it is generally assumed to be this way, but as usual the fiction in question determines if the power gap is actually this large. Should there be evidence for the opposite these things don't have to be considered as such.

There are many other ways a fiction can have different levels of existence, or power on such levels, but these usually need some evidence that the fiction considers them as such.

Tiering System
11-C: Characters 3 or more levels of existence lower than our normal human universe.

11-B: Characters 2 levels of existence lower than our human universe.

11-A: Characters 1 level of existence lower than our human universe.

Tier 10 to 2-A: Stays basically the same.

High 2-A: Character 1 level of existence higher than an infinite multiverse.

Low 1-C: Characters 2 levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse.

1-C: Characters 3 to 5 levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse.

High 1-C: Characters 6 to 7 levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse.

. . .

High 1-B: Characters infinite levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse.

1-A: Characters at least one level of existence higher than the unification of infinite levels of existence.

High 1-A: Characters infinite levels of existence higher than the unification of infinite levels of existence.

Tier 0: Characters on a higher level of existence than High 1-A characters. (Characters at least one level of existence higher than the unification of infinite levels of existence, which are higher than the unification of infinite levels of existence)

As you see I have tried to keep my formulations as general as possible, to fit as many power systems in fiction as possible. Whether scientific or not.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

How would the distinction between High 1-B and 1-A fit with the notion that 1-A qualitatively transcends time and space, and cannot be reached by stacking infinities?

 

[Antvasima]

I basically do not understand the following definition very well: "The unification of infinite levels of existence."

 

[Udlmaster]

I basically do not understand the following definition very well: "The unification of infinite levels of existence."

I agree, as for example, there's many verses which have a limited number of lower "existences" but then have beings which are beyond "infinite" Transcendences due to their very nature as being beyond all notions of Time and Space, for example Tenchi Muyo.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I basically do not understand the following definition very well: "The unification of infinite levels of existence."

"The unification of infinite levels of existence" is in other words the totality of the infinite hierarchy of levels of existence. The entire infinite hierarchy gets transcended.

If the levels of existence are in the form of higher dimensional spacetime that would mean characters that can transcend (basic) infinite dimensional spacetime.

 

[Agnaa]

What is even being discussed here? Assuming Option 3:

Low 1-A = Baseline Outerversal and up

1-A = Infinitely-layered Outerversal stuff and equivalents.

High 1-A = Characters who transcend Outerversal hierarchies that are infinite, or some equivalent of that.

0 = Characters who transcend all of the above.

What part of that is confusing?

Why is one single transcendence the difference between High 1-A and 0? It seems kind of superfluous to have them as different tiers, to me, if each verse could only have one High 1-A character, and any characters stronger than them would be in 0. I like how all the other tiers have some noteworthy qualitative difference between them, but here it seems like 0 is just High 1-A plus one layer.

Reminder to anyone reading this post to not worry about my interpretation, I might simply be misunderstanding, just wait for someone like Ultima to address it.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

To be honest after thinking about it putting High 1-B into Low 1-A is stupid as heck so I am back to voting option 3

 

[Nepuko]

From previous Ultima patterns......this is most likely a misunderstanding stemming from bad wording..smh Ultima.

@Daba dee done.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

My apologies, but I do not think that your suggestion seems to make enough of a distinction between High 1-B and 1-A. I may have misunderstood though.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT
My apologies, but I do not think that your suggestion seems to make enough of a distinction between High 1-B and 1-A. I may have misunderstood though.

You mean due to the qualitative transcendence of spacetime and stacking infinities stuff?

For practical purposes I think basically all characters on what is 1-A in my system would transcend its verses spacetime.

Though, yes, theoretically a character could be 1-A in my system without transcending spacetime in general. However, I feel like this a natural consequence of dealing with fiction.

Say we have a verse with a spacetime transcending 1-A and then we have a non-spacetime transcending character that can beat it. That character might not transcend spacetime in general, but it still has 1-A amounts of power. As such it only makes sense to rank it 1-A.

In other words if a character is above High 1-B by the same amount as a 1-A character, but doesn't transcend spacetime, would it be much weaker just through due to that fact?

One could say that such a power system in a verse just doesn't make sense with our system then, but isn't that exactly the point of the revision? That we don't want to rank verses according to our standards (e.g. higher dimensional character being more powerful) if the verse clearly doesn't fit into them?


In regards to stacking infinities: That would not suffice. Per default I wouldn't even assume that more than infinite dimensions constitutes a higher level of existence in my proposed system. The verse would have to clarify that this is the case for that verse in particular.

And by the nature of infinity one dimension more than infinite or twice as many or even basic infinite as many would not constitute truly more dimensions. In other words even in a verse, in which higher amounts of infinite dimensions are seen as higher levels of existence, it is not easy to stack infinities on top of High 1-B to become 1-A.

Personally I think such a gap in power being necessary is a sufficient difference. Would such a thing not in fact fulfill the "qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions" criteria mentioned on the tiering system page?


I mean, if the qualitatively transcending dimension thing is really viewed as absolutely necessary one can also just add that to the system as additional requirement for 1-A. Wouldn't really be a problem either. (Though I personally don't like the formulation of "qualitatively superior" a whole lot as it sounds kinda wooly for me)

 

[Agnaa]

@DontTalkDT An important difference between the system you proposed and the one Ultima proposed is that Ultima's has a distinct level for characters an uncountably infinite levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse, a level which is below outerversal.

I think this is important since these characters seem to transcend the unification of countably infinite levels of existence, but we don't traditionally consider these characters outerversal. And importantly, there's quite a few characters like this.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT An important difference between the system you proposed and the one Ultima proposed is that Ultima's has a distinct level for characters an uncountably infinite levels of existence higher than an infinite multiverse, a level which is below outerversal.
I think this is important since these characters seem to transcend the unification of countably infinite levels of existence, but we don't traditionally consider these characters outerversal. And importantly, there's quite a few characters like this.

With uncountably we mean particularly "cardinality of the real numbers" many, right? Not "any cardinality that is larger than that of the natural numbers", yes?

I am not aware of us traditionally considering these characters anything in particular. In particular if we are not just talking in terms of dimensions I wonder if there aren't many 1-A that don't have feats of that scale. One has to consider that the gap between countable and uncountable is... pretty big.

In general above cardinality of the real numbers many seems somewhat of an arbitrary entrance point to 1-A for me. Personally I start at just infinite hierarchy since it's the point were it becomes difficult to talk about size in precise terms and is the "end" of the first hierarchy.

Also, to be honest, personally I would just like to keep mathematical principles like cardinals as much out of the definition of the tiering system as possible. If we talk about stuff like higher cardinalities of layers we will in the end have to equalize non-mathematical power systems of verses into our system via rather debatable equivalences. Like: If a story has infinite dimensions, how many reality-fiction transcendences does one need to transcend uncountably many layers? And how much does it need to become 1-A?

 

[Agnaa]

@DT I'm not familiar with all the feats on that level, but I believe they're "cardinality of the real numbers" many.

Under the current system they're considered High 1-B because they're still constrained by dimensionality.

When talking through various ways of accounting for this without just using "beyond dimensionality" with Ultima, we couldn't find a very satisfactory way of treating it that didn't have its own issues.

• Either we'd start outerversal at above countably infinite, and have uncountably infinite dimensions be outerversal.
• Or we'd start outerversal at above cardinality of the real numbers, and arbitrarily equalize "transcends infinite layers" to "transcends uncountably infinite layers" to keep those characters in outerversal.
• Or we'd start outerversal at some arbitrary higher mathematical thing, equalizing all outerversal characters to something above all aleph numbers, even if they've only transcended infinite layers with no more context. With the only upside to this choice being it should properly represent "above any possible forms of dimensionality that we find within fiction".

I find the second choice to be the best representative of the three, it accounts for the fair amount of fiction that does have "uncountably infinite layers" without requiring verses to explicitly transcend that to reach outerversal, but while simultaneously being a bit arbitrary with pushing some verses upwards.

I'm not sure how to define this "cardinality of the real numbers" tier in a way that isn't overly mathematical. I'd assume that Ultima/Aeyu know how they'd want to write it for the tiering system page and that it wouldn't be overly mathematical there, but since I can't find a draft of their proposed changes I can't know.

EDIT: I've been shown the new tiering system page draft. Here's the current draft for the tier directly below outerversal.

High Hyperverse level: Characters who demonstrate power equivalent to destroying/creating an uncountably infinite-D level construct or equivalent layer/reality-fiction/transcendence/qualitative superiority hierarchy/similar.

EDIT 2: You seemed to be implying that mentioning "uncountably many layers" is introducing math concepts that you'd rather keep out of the tiering system's definition, but uncountable infinity is already used in High 2-A's definition.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

At this point I fear nobody is ever gonna come to a solution eventually.

I already suggested either Option 2 or 4. It's best we simply go through with the simplest possible options or else I fear this will stretch for two more threads.

 

[Maxnumb231]

sadly matt this will bound to happen

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I just realized that after this is all said and done, the conceptual manipulation page would need to be fundamentally rewritten.

 

[Maxnumb231]

can we take it slow and do this first before we jump the gun?

 

[KingPin0422]

I'm gonna change my vote to option 2. Seeing as option 1 is dead in the water, this would be the next best thing for me.

Option 3 is my least favorite, but I am willing to work with it. I honestly don't care which of the four options win out.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

What really matters most is that whatever is chosen is easy to understand, flexible enough to be able to apply to mutliple verses, yet specifc enough to prevent wanking or overinflation of characters.

 

[Antvasima]

At this point I fear nobody is ever gonna come to a solution eventually.

I already suggested either Option 2 or 4. It's best we simply go through with the simplest possible options or else I fear this will stretch for two more threads.

Given how important this topic is for the future of the wiki, for once I would prefer if we do in fact take our time discussing it until all of the question marks and potential problems have been dealt with.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I still personally prefer if we keep the base Outerverse level defined by qualitatively transcending space and time and/or being unreachable by stacking infinities, so we do not completely overhaul our system, just build upon and improve it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@DontTalkDT

I mean absolutely no offense, but how is the System you are proposing any better than the one that has already been proposed in this thread? It seems to literally be just it but without the Mathematics and lot more semantics, the former of which are pretty much the backbone of the whole thing and act to give things meaning, for reasons I've already articulated in this post already. I honestly don't understand what is your hangup with what we are doing, considering all of it is just giving uniformity and a formal definion to things we've always done.

I really don't see why verses not delving into the Mathematics used to justify the system is a reason for we to not use them in the first place. Because, shock of shocks, anything can be described mathematically, and it's not like we are incapable of precisely quantifiying things we ourselves made. The most I can see is we equalizing characters who exist "beyond mathematics" to mathematical quantities and magnitudes, but even then, that's because such a thing doesn't really exist in the first place, at least in a fictional context, so there's no issue in associating the two.

By the way, I take this is a good opportunity to show the draft of the proposed Tiering System: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOZZBchgu7rwVxdhx1sNcsUuwDjL_zLGMlVZpTkx_OA

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.

I have some concerns though:

I am not certain about if the new tier 11 is a good idea or not. More well-informed input is necessary.

For tier 2, what is meant with "a causal series of areas" and "causally separate zones"? We also preferably need to discuss "An uncountably infinite number of separate 3-D universal spaces".

We should probably clarify in general the requirement that higher dimensions are treated as qualitatively superior within the work of fiction in order to count for higher tiers.

For the Outerverse level tiers, I would prefer if DarkLK and Sera EX evaluate if the definitions and requirements make sense. Preferably Azathoth as well if somebody can get a hold of him.

For tier 0, if the requirement is to transcend a tier High 1-A in the same manner as they transcend a Low 1-A, I am not sure if any of our characters even qualify. For example, Featherine did technically reach the The Creator, but all characters who do so are automatically absorbed into its being. She somehow managed to avoid this fate though.