Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

I have to put trust in the most knowledgeable members of this community, as it is impossible for me to have indepth knowledge about everything here.

I am constantly working my butt off to be helpful and keep things somewhat organised, but I need continuous considerable help from the rest of the staff, as well as from the experienced other members of the community.

@Andy

That is probably true.

 

[Eganergo]

No, but I read it and it's not what they said it is.

Relying and parroting the word of others like gospel is the worst thing you can do as a leader, Ant.

Then what is it according to you?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I already explained it above. It's two levels of Writer / Fiction. Characters realizing they exist in fiction and ascending to a higher reality is still part of the first level of fiction.

 

[Ionliosite]

Sorry to comment on an staff only thread, but Matt is technically right: there are only 2 storytellers shown con Daimaou - Akuto and TLoI. The rest, beyond a short glimpse, are glossed over by the cast, and we only know about them via narration and short mentions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sorry to comment on an staff only thread, but Matt is technically right: there are only 2 storytellers shown con Daimaou - Akuto and TLoI. The rest, beyond a short glimpse, are glossed over by the cast, and we only know about them via narration and short mentions.

The other "God / Writer Universes" that Akuto encounters in the emptiness above the Afterlife are other storytellers, but they are on the same level as Akuto, not above or below.

 

[Siperri123]

you read it?, you can summarize the hierarchy for everyone to prove your explanation.


And you see the English version has many errors ?.

 

[Antvasima]

Are there other types of outerversal hierarchies within the setting as well?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

you read it?, you can summarize the hierarchy for everyone to prove your explanation.

And you see the English version has many errors ?.

I read the Fan Translation but the series has since gotten an official translation last year.

 

[Siperri123]

Do you link to that?,

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Are there other types of outerversal hierarchies within the setting as well?

This is how it works, best as I can surmise (From Top to Bottom):

• The Law of Identity (True God, Writer / Storyteller behind everything, point from which all originates)
• The Void Body / New Law of Identity (New God created at the end of the Novel by Akuto and Keena that is fully split off from The Law of Identity and its story, becoming the origin point for a new set of stories and universes)
• Emptiness above Afterlife (Just an endless void of nothingness without any features pretty much
• Archetypical God / Writer Universes (What Akuto becomes after essentially assimilating the souls / worlds of the afterlife into himself. Basically each God / Writer represents a type of Universe / Story and is also one incarnated. Empty Universe, Formless Universe and Gravity Universe are the ones mentioned in any depth but there are others. Each deals with a different way stories are perceived / expressed and interacted with. Honestly the most confusing part of the setting)
• Afterlife (Endless Plane outside of Space and Time and the lower-level fictional universe, where thoughts mold realities and where souls that ascend to it can become their own writers. But ultimately the Afterlife is just fiction as well)
• Fictional Universe (The fictional story in which the majority of Daimaou takes place. It's a world that appears real from within, but which is in truth merely a story controlled by the Law of Identity. This story can be made of a single universe, endless parallel universes, universes within universes, higher levels of existence outside the fiction, which appear real from within them but are in fact just fiction from another exterior level, etc. The very fact of characters realizing that they are fictional beings and attempting to escape to a higher level is still a part of the fiction. Metafiction is just another form of fiction, after all, so no one truly has free will, they are just following the script of the writer, even when it appears they do)

As you can see, there is no "Infinite Outerversal Hierarchy" whatsoever, and yet I am completely and absolutely content with having The Law of Identity be Tier 0 and having the Void Body Sai Akuto be High 1-A, as they both meet all the qualifications as far as metaphysical characteristics go.

 

[Siperri123]

what you mentioned is not the structure of the verse.

 

[Ionliosite]

What Matt is saying goes in line with my cosmology, just missing the story density I mentioned, which is what creates the infinite 1-A scale in the first place. Pretty interesting interpretation.

 

[Siperri123]

void boby is not related to New Tloi. and the new Tloi is still limited as it plays the role are Tloi.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What Matt is saying goes in line with my cosmology, just missing the story density I mentioned, which is what creates the infinite 1-A scale in the first place. Pretty interesting interpretation.

Yeah, "Story Density" is another thing they cover. Which helps explain why fictions can be different from one another. They mention "Light Density" stories which are meaningless distractions which only serve to provide momentary entertainment to the reader, while more complex and more cerebral stories are "Heavy Density"

Also Vol 13 reveals that the Real Life writer of Daimaou is actually a character in the Light Novel after incarnating in a Low Density Fictional World solely to write the Daimou Light Novels and provide an ending to Akuto's story.

Which shows that fiction from a "lower world" can influence something above it too. It's very meta and not literal.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

void boby is not related to New Tloi. and the new Tloi is still limited as it plays the role are Tloi.

The Void Body literally appears for like 2 pages at the end of Vol 13 and the resulting entity is outright described as a New Law of Identity which will be freed from the bounds of the original.

It's pretty much an Amaranth.

 

[Siperri123]

No,void body is the first step to becoming a creature that can overcome the world of Tloi and will become the inhabitants of the world of True Tloi, the new law of identity is the embodiment of God and overcome Every story level and also the source of the story.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. The Void Body is what becomes the new Law of Identity. They also never once treat the original as superior that is just your supposition. You sound like you didn't read the novel while I did so last week.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Amaranth? Isn't that the Twitch girl everyone hates?

In all seriousness, I'm seeing Matthew's side more.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Thank you for the explanation.

@DontTalkDT & DarkLK

Would you agree with this interpretation?

 

[Antoniofer]

I also unsure about this of considering reality to be fiction as part of being 1-A of above, like, people its using a character with Author Authority as model of the tiering system, when it do not needs to be the case (also, I doubt that an [nigh]omniscient being wanted to create a omniverse where everything is not real, like, why would it wanted to do that?).

 

[Antvasima]

Should we delete the derailment posts?

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. Let's return to the main topic please.

 

[Nepuko]

I was away because of real life matters so I'm sorry if my question seems dumb, but....was the Tiering System finally decided on? And is this thread turning into Revisions of 1-A verses?

 

[Agnaa]

@Antoniofer Considering reality to be fiction is not in any way a requirement of 1-A and above. You just need to transcend outerversal scales. The most common way this is written is through reality-fiction differences, but it can be done in other ways (i.e. have a power system for outerversal characters, and have a character transcend that power system entirely).

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I was away because of real life matters so I'm sorry if my question seems dumb, but....was the Tiering System finally decided on? And is this thread turning into Revisions of 1-A verses?

I Think so

 

[Antvasima]

So where were we in the discussion before we started to derail? We should preferably get back to what we need to get done here.

My apologies for helping to cause a problem.

 

[Malomtek]

We were talking about which characters would apply for High 1-A status.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Well, our side-discussion was related to that, but we got too much off track.

What else do we need to decide here?

 

[Malomtek]

What to do with our Beyond-Dimensional Existence page.

What to do with verses that explicitly equate higher levels of reality with transfinite aleph cardinals, such as Marvel and Discworld.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Marvel only mentioned higher degrees of infinity in the multiverse in an old obscure early 1990s Doctor Strange comicbook that has never been referenced again, so given the ridiculously extreme inconsistencies of the verse, I am not sure how we should handle it.

 

[Malomtek]

Not every facet of Marvel needs to be referenced a billion times for it to "stick", merely not contradicted.

That Doctor Strange comic, to my knowledge, has yet to be seriously contradicted even once, and is instead backed up by no small number of other comics both before and after it.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem with Marvel is that the hundreds of different writers contradict each other constantly, and do not seem to particularly care about the continuity of other stories overall.

I also do not remember any other comics clearly backing up the Doctor Strange claim, and during "Avengers: Infinity" the entire Marvel multiverse was destroyed simply by gradually colliding all of the regular universes against each other.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

About Marvel, I think we need to downgrade TOAA to our new 1-A. Just very high into Baseline and only behind the umnieko and ichiban characters from my knowledge.

He has no statements to prove he transcends oblivion. In my opinon, here is how his profile should be.

At least 1-A, Possibly higher. With reasoning being: at least outerversal (Is the supreme being of marvel, who contains beings like Oblivion who are the embodiment of dimensionless non existence), possibly higher (may transcend oblivion and be in an unquantifiable hiearchy, but we don't have any specific proof of this)

 

[Malomtek]

@Antvasima

What is "Avengers: Infinity"? Do you mean the Infinity crossover storyline? Because we can easily fit those claims into the context of the Doctor Strange scan and say that they just mean a specific layer of the greater multiverse. The multiverse certainly isn't composed of just "Earths".

@Blue

I don't think that that's warranted.

 

[Bobsican]

At least 1-A, Possibly higher. With reasoning being: at least outerversal (Is the supreme being of marvel, who contains beings like Oblivion who are the embodiment of dimensionless non existence), possibly higher (may transcend oblivion and be in an unquantifiable hiearchy, but we don't have any specific proof of this)

Normally if there isn´t any proof or something that can support that sort of stuff whatsoever, it is generally not indexed (regarding the "possibly higher"), IIRC.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

So we just put it as "at least outerversal"

 

[Bobsican]

So we just put it as "at least outerversal"

That would be better overall, if that was the case.

 

[Elizhaa]

I, Ultima, Ultima and others discussed the Marvel's god tier rating, in a discord tiering system discussion. From we discuss, we generally agree TOAA would just be Tier 1-A from transcending characters like Oblivion and being above House of Ideas a Tier 1-A realm where Oblivion is seen fiction from it. We generally agree being above like transcending a Tier 1-A like Tier 1-A seeing another Tier 1-A as fiction is just a higher degree of Tier 1-A but not Tier 1-A+, Tier High 1-A or Tier 0. Aeyu mentioned that Matt could have evidence to back up a possibly High 1-A for TOAA.

I think we discussed that Marvel abstracts like Oblivion, Eternity, and others would be Low 1-A from being uncountably infinite-D being, from their feats.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What to do with our Beyond-Dimensional Existence page.

What to do with verses that explicitly equate higher levels of reality with transfinite aleph cardinals, such as Marvel and Discworld.

Higher-Dimensional Existence will stay, but it will get tons of revisions.

There has been some talk amongst a few members on Discord about making a page for "Metaphysical Existence", which would encompass existing beyond spatiotemporal dimensions as a type. I personally believe this can work, and would allow us to differentiate literal higher-dimensional entities from transcendental beings who exist in some higher ontological state and have nothing to do with literal higher dimensions besides size.

I say we should analyze them on a case-by-case basis, as always, and don't take literally everything at face value. For example, Marvel got cardinals wrong and so the mentions of it only warrant Low 1-A at best, and Discworld's Alephs are vague as ****; as far as I've seen there is no evidence that they physically exist in the verse.

It all depends on what the verse refers to when mentioning this stuff, and if the author knows what they are talking about when they do

 

[Malomtek]

What is with all these backdoor Discord discussions anyway?

I also strongly disagree with Discworld Alephs being "vague as ****", or Marvel (generally) "getting cardinals wrong" (that incident with Kubik can be chalked up to a different "interpretation" of how infinities go).

And I think that The One Above All, at least his in his "true state" as basically a collective author avatar, should still be tier 0.